A primitive economy.

The trouble with Govt subsidies is that they are just not viable.

Today there was a news item on the ABC web site about a report in to the ethanol for fuel subsidy started by the Howard Govt. The report was commissioned by the Labor Govt and their conclusions make interesting reading

E10 consumers missing out on full subsidy discount, ethanol report finds - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

One of the really telling lines is this one:

"The report estimates the three ethanol producers employ about 200 workers combined, costing taxpayers between $545,000 and $680,000 per job. "

as well as this one:

"For an E10 blend the program provides an effective excise differential of 3.8 cents per litre compared to a litre of regular unleaded petrol," it says.

"However, in 2012-13 the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission estimated that the average E10 price discount at the bowser was approximately 2 cents per litre - suggesting that around 40 per cent of the excise rebate was not being passed through to motorists."


What all that really means is that Govts of any persuasion should not get in to the business of shelling out money to create and/or save jobs because almost without fail it is a doomed exercise.

What Mr Shorten conveniently forgets is that Ford Australia announced in May 2013 it was closing their Broadmeadows and Geelong plants.

Ford Australia to close Broadmeadows and Geelong plants, 1,200 jobs to go - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

I could be wrong but I don't think Mr Abbott was Prime Minister then, or was he?:roll:

Some interesting discussion and points on this topic made on the ABC program Q&A on Monday night - might be possible to watch reruns on the internet if you are interested.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Shed

The trouble with Govt subsidies is that they are just not viable.

What all that really means is that Govts of any persuasion should not get in to the business of shelling out money to create and/or save jobs because almost without fail it is a doomed exercise.

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When your government becomes beholden to capital you have lost the game.

In West Virginia there was recently an industrial chemical spill. The chemical is used to process coal. Very little was known about the toxicity of this chemical (4-methylcyclohexanemethanol) because the manufacturer was not required to test it, a failure of government. The chemical spilled into the local river which supplies drinking water for the down stream population. The residents could not use the water for weeks and had to rely on bottled water for all of their needs. The bottled water supply ran out early. Now the residents have seen their water bills go up Despite Not Using Water, West Virginians Say Water Bills Have Spiked Since Chemical Spill | ThinkProgress.

In 2010 our Supreme Court in the case known as 'Citizens United' decided that corporations could donate unlimited amounts of money to political campaigns and politicians. The Justices decided that such spending was a form of 'speech' that was protected from government control under the US Constitution. Thus we now have a situation where the forces of capital can exert tremendous and disproportionate influence over our elections.

In 1986 our Congress passed and President Reagan signed into law the Emergency Planning and Community Right to Know Act of 1986. this act and others require the users and suppliers of chemicals to produce a document known as a Material Safety Data Sheet or MSDS. In the MSDS all known hazards and the physical and chemical characteristics of a compound are to be reported. The act has since been diluted to the point that most MSDS's are useless. No information is typically provided for the composition of products that are mixtures. Only the most rudimentary information and warnings are provided such as 'do not take internally' or 'flammable' etc.

These two forces combined have exacerbated the problems in West Virginia. Little to no toxicological information is available in the MSDS for MCHM and thus the possible health effects are almost completely unknown. Why has this happened? Big coal bought the politicians. The politicians watered-down the public safety laws and somebody 'accidentally' dumped the chemical in the river. Now about 1/4 of the state of West Virginia has poisoned drinking water.

Unfortunately situations like the one in West Virginia are anything but unique. Take the global warming situation. Australia is having major problems as I write but in the US there is a large segment of the population that does not believe man-made climate change is real. We teach creationism along side evolution to children in science class in the public schools here.

When your government becomes more responsive to money than it is to your vote then you can expect nothing but trouble. We have been sold.

Good post Rob, although I don't see what the teaching of evolution has to do with things.

One problem i see with repulican systems of government is that all laws and decisions become
rooted in the constitution and that leads to to the sorts of troubles you have outlined. We end up
with a plutocracy and not a democracy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by artme

Good post Rob, although I don't see what the teaching of evolution has to do with things.

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Sorry about that - major error arising from various interruptions. The point I am getting at by my, now corrected, comment above is that the political leaders here are beholden to Kapital and that as part of an increasingly overt campaign to intellectually impoverish the populace they have allowed creationism to be taught alongside evolution in the public school science classes. Casting doubt on global warming science is another major campaign by Kapital.
If people are taught to reflexively doubt the major conclusions of science then they can be easily lead anywhere by those harboring evil intent. He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.

This makes sobering reading

http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2014/...s-lasted-long/

Note that with all the grandstanding and finger pointing about who is to "blame" for the demise of the car industry in Australia, 2 major manufacturers (Mitsubishi-2008 and Ford-2013) announced they were closing down under a Labor government and 2 (Holden and Toyota) under a Coalition government.

Some of the figures quoted are staggering, $30billion in subsidies in 15 years! That is $2billion per year, surely that money could have been better spent?

I liked the suggestion that if we had paid every worker in the car industry $1million dollars in 1985 and closed the industry down it would have been cheaper!:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Shed

This makes sobering reading

http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2014/...s-lasted-long/

Note that with all the grandstanding and finger pointing about who is to "blame" for the demise of the car industry in Australia, 2 major manufacturers (Mitsubishi-2008 and Ford-2013) announced they were closing down under a Labor government and 2 (Holden and Toyota) under a Coalition government.

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I think what you are seeing in Australia is a manifestation of capital or Kapital seeking the highest return.

If you are an investor what are you going to put money on: An investment that returns 5%/yr over 20 years or something that turns over 30% in a year? Manufacturing complex items like cars takes a lot of long term investment. iPhone apps, entertainment software and the latest internet gimmicks turn over profits quickly. Automobile plants are long term commitments and the yields are just not high enough to satisfy the current expectations of the capital managers.

A stable society is the ultimate in long term investment - we all want that to be permanent. Unfortunately it doesn't make enough money to be worth investing in to those who control the money.

I think it is a bit more prosaic than that Rob.

What we are seeing here is a bunch of big corporations committing industrial black mail on governments, both state and federal. When the gravy train eventually runs out, as it always does (even politicians eventually see the light) they pick up their bat and ball and go play the same game elsewhere.

In the case of Mitsubishi they packed the whole kit and caboodle in to containers (using imported Chinese casual labour) and shipped it to China, where that equipment is now producing cars again. All they left behind was an assortment of empty buildings that the state government paid for anyway.

The same will happen with the Holden and Toyota machinery.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Shed

I think it is a bit more prosaic than that Rob.

What we are seeing here is a bunch of big corporations committing industrial black mail on governments, both state and federal. When the gravy train eventually runs out, as it always does (even politicians eventually see the light) they pick up their bat and ball and go play the same game elsewhere.

In the case of Mitsubishi they packed the whole kit and caboodle in to containers (using imported Chinese casual labour) and shipped it to China, where that equipment is now producing cars again. All they left behind was an assortment of empty buildings that the state government paid for anyway.

The same will happen with the Holden and Toyota machinery.

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Of course, once the public investment goes away or expires the corporation moves on to the next favorable municipality or country.
The company that makes Ramen noodles, Maruchen, will build a production facility here. They are going to create roughly 600 jobs, the majority of them minimum wage, in return for some sweet tax incentives to the tune of about $2mln./yr for five years. The cost of living here is lower than any other city of similar size in the US so the future employees will be somewhat higher up the socioeconomic ladder than they would be in other parts of the country. Once Maruchen uses up their tax break and has depreciated their equipment against their income taxes there is a good chance they will move on and the city will be left with an abandoned industrial space, possibly with some worn-out noodle making equipment as a bonus.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Big Shed

I think it is a bit more prosaic than that Rob.

What we are seeing here is a bunch of big corporations committing industrial black mail on governments, both state and federal. When the gravy train eventually runs out, as it always does (even politicians eventually see the light) they pick up their bat and ball and go play the same game elsewhere.

In the case of Mitsubishi they packed the whole kit and caboodle in to containers (using imported Chinese casual labour) and shipped it to China, where that equipment is now producing cars again. All they left behind was an assortment of empty buildings that the state government paid for anyway.

The same will happen with the Holden and Toyota machinery.

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I remember about a year ago one of the big car manufacturers openly admitted this on a TV news/current affair show.

Am fairly dissappointed that we have just given Coca Cola $22Million - what do others think ?

Bill

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MORAL HAZARD

This is a disaster. A biblical humungoeous total and comple social and economic disaster.

Moral Hazard is the worst imaginable economic outcome for any government or economy.

It was used today to bail out Qantas with a debt guarantee. Can you image it! A government backed debt guarantee! The Qantas board and management now have a FREE TICKET to run the company into the ground with a guaranteed bailout! This turkey is targeted, shot, deheaded, defeathered, boiled, served and carved and NOW they are asking who wants the dregs/gravy????

They just admitted that they cannot pay their debts.

Every trader in the country is going to rip the absolute s%#t out of Qantas over the next two months.

The INSTANT I saw this pop up on my Bloomberg stream I shorted the absolute s#}t out of all the longs.

What an absolute profit on a plate to the jackals.

See my earlier posts. Moral Hazard will eviscerate this country.

Perhaps we are just doing what other countries, states, local councils do.

Doesn't make it right but to some extent it is understandable.

Dennis Napthine is riding on a very thin, and probably unsustainable
majority. I hate to be cynical but................

Artme, you raise a good point.

Everyone has friends. Good friends, very good friends and some are family.

Brother in law gets into a tricky situation and needs a few grand. Cool. Pays it back in 6 months. After all, we love him...

But what if brother in law owns 6 leveraged properties, borrows uncontrolably and doesn't even bring a lettuce to the Sunday BBQ?

Moral hazard is pure evil. Please take some time to really research it. People like me can rant and rave, but until it hits the taxpayer (congratulations, you just paid the CEO of Qantas a bonus!) then you remain ignorant.

Be informed. Please please please be informed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rob streeper

They are going to create roughly 600 jobs, the majority of them minimum wage, in return for some sweet tax incentives to the tune of about $2mln./yr for five years.

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A quick calculation shows that the tax benefit for the Maruchen noodle plant is equivalent to the yearly wages of 132 workers at minimum wage ($7.25) assuming that they work full time every week of the year. Must be nice to have the state pay the wages of a quarter of your workers for five years. The local government will apparently also be doing some road upgrades and maintenance in support of the noodle factory.

Some years ago in Leeton, where there was a cannery, and where I owned an orchard, the local
council was approached by a large transnational about setting up a factory that would process
maize and other grains.

The carrot was employment and a guaranteed outlet for farmers' produce. Now the local ALP
councilor screamed blue murder when it was suggested that the council owned land on an
already paved, curbed and guttered street complete with water supply and sewerage be given
to the company.

End result was that the company went elsewhere.

Now, do we buy jobs because this is what it amounts to or do we be cognisant of the fact that all the
local businesses that were already established there had to pay their own way??

I personally think the council made the right decision. One for those who stand up to rich bullies.

Evan, I think your horror with the QANTAS decision is entirely justified. However, this is the result of
other companies and countries doing what we won't and of perhaps poorly and emotionally framed laws.

I'm a little surprised about the reaction to the purported Qantas deal.

If as a nation we want to have Qantas as a 'majority' locally owned entity rather than a market listed company with no ownership restictions, then we have to be prepared to stand by our wish.

If instead, we determine that support is not a national necessity, we should allow Qantas to have the same ownership rules as other listed companies, then we let her fly away to play with the other free flying airlines.

Greg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Evanism

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MORAL HAZARD

Every trader in the country is going to rip the absolute s%#t out of Qantas over the next two months.

The INSTANT I saw this pop up on my Bloomberg stream I shorted the absolute s#}t out of all the longs.

---

Hey Evanism,

To what extent will you and all your friends shorting Qantas form a self fulfilling prophecy ?

I dont understand very much about shorting - is this correct ? Effectively you sell shares that you do not yet own in the hope that the price will go down and then you buy them at the lower price in order to give them to the person who bought them from you before you owned them ?

Bill

The issue of QANTAS is a vexed one. It is our national airline and some pride is at stake.
It was a government owned entity that was floated on the stock market with the proviso
that it would have a majority of Australian owned shares.

Since the float Aus has become more and more a "free market economy". This means we
are competing on an uneven playing field. QANTAS has to be run as a business while other
airlines, such as Singapore, operate as government owned entities and can be continually
propped up. They can employ whatever staff they choose from wherever and pay them
wages well below what QANTAS is obliged to pay. They can service their fleet at any place
in the world. Remember the kerfuffle when QANTAS wanted to have servicing done overseas???

I sometimes think the rest of the world plays us for suckers. The moral high ground is alright
until your pockets are empty.

Quant as had no problems raising funds 5years ago, the current management have a bit to answer for IMO.

That said Warren Buffet did the numbers and on the whole the airline industry has never made money. None for me thx...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

Quant as had no problems raising funds 5years ago, the current management have a bit to answer for IMO.

That said Warren Buffet did the numbers and on the whole the airline industry has never made money. None for me thx...

---

Airlines have long been held to be a status symbol and so emotion gets mixed up in the decision making.

Harking back to the car industry and all the doom sayers predicting the imminent demise of our Australian way of live, I happened to borrow an electronics magazine from our local library this morning, Silicon Chip Dec 2013.

In it was a Publisher's Letter discussing whether the car industry in Australia should be subsidised.

Given that this written well before the Holden decision by Abbott and Hockey I thought it showed very good judgement on the part of the author.

I particularly liked his analogy to the Australian electronics industry and how it was decimated by the 1973 Whitlam Govt decision to cut tariffs by 25% across the board, resulting in job losses of "probably more than 100,000".

Interesting reading, goes to show that life goes on and economies adjust to shocks. Maybe Mr Shorten should be sent a copy?

All of the talk currently occurring in Australia reminds me of the national conversation we have been having here in the US over the past 30 years. In the 90's there was talk of moving to a 'knowledge economy' heavily weighted with high technology businesses. Labor costs were cited as being a key driver of the de-industrialization of the economy. The first to go were the textile mills followed by the auto production plants. Labor cost and inefficiency, i.e. lazy abusive union members, were cited as the reasons that these industries were sent overseas. The publicly touted role of the management was as saviors of the industry by routing out inefficiency and waste - it all turned out to be a lie. It wasn't that union members were sabotaging their own livelihoods, it was management that was seeking ever greater profits by simultaneously reducing labor costs, reducing their corporate taxes, and reducing the quality of the products by using cheaper raw materials. For instance, I have a set of t-shirts that I wore in school. They are 'Made in America' BVD brand shirts. I recently found a couple of them in a box in the attic and put them back in use. I also have a set of t-shirts recently purchased from a large warehouse store. The difference in quality is striking. My 25 year old shirts retain their elasticity and integrity while my one year old big-box shirts look like rags. Given the tides of fashion I realize that most people will not be wearing 25 year old clothes to the office but t-shirts for working around the house are another thing. I wish now I had bought more of the good ones 25 years ago. Likewise with Levi's blue-jeans. They were formerly made here in San Antonio. Even with the heavy work I do as a hobby a pair could last two or three years before the knees split and they cost $8 to $15. The San Antonio Levi's plant shut down about ten years ago. Now they cost $30 to $40 and I am lucky if I don't ruin them in a year.
Cars are another story. The unions were blamed for the low quality and high prices of American cars. At the same time every safety or efficiency innovation was decried by auto company management as a stake to their hearts. Now General Motors is the third largest auto maker by volume in the world behind Toyota and Volkswagen. Turns out that management was largely responsible for the decline of their world market share. They resisted innovation and upgrading their plants until they were so obsolete that they were no longer economically viable. Detroit, once considered a major industrial center, is now a wasteland with nearly a third of its' residential properties in ruins.
Blame needs to be put where it is due: Greed. Greed by management, shareholders and their craven collaborators in government.
And what of the 'knowledge economy'? Let's face it - not everybody has the inclination or ability to become a knowledge worker. Society has to provide jobs for everyone, not just the high-tech thinkers. Do you want to live in a society where people are considered dispensable or useless on the basis of their aptitudes?

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:OfficeDocumentSettings> <o:RelyOnVML/> <o:AllowPNG/> </o:OfficeDocumentSettings> </xml><![endif]--> I didn’t want to get involved in this thread for a number of reasons. I dislike mysticism in any form be it reading tea leaves, auras or the market. The nation most enamoured of the free market and the workings of the ‘invisible hand’ still finds it necessary to have anti-monopoly laws! Another reason is that any suggested remedies can be misconstrued as belonging to a particular political grouping. Besides that, I know enough of economics to realise that simplistic answers are usually not the answer. I think I finally decided to put my toe in the water when I saw frozen Nile perch from Tanzania for sale in Woolworths. Not that I resent Tanzania earning export income, but the logistics and logic of freezing and shipping from a country with a life expectancy of less than 61 years to the freezers in a small town in a food rich country escape me. I can’t see the fishermen earning much as their share.
Anyway back to the original question. Many years ago I was sent a paper on mineral/oil economies written by Robert Looney. (unfortunate name but genuine). He was concerned with third world countries and the ways in which mineral/oil wealth acted as a brake on national development rather than a stimulus. It was far easier for them to import than to develop industries. This was over thirty years ago and though Australia was hardly in the same position I remember thinking that our reliance on extractive industries carried the same risk.
Whatever we might think, Australia is too small to matter on the world stage. Our currency can be manipulated easily as can the shares in companies. We are already seeing the results of oligopolies and oligopsonies both in the retail and the primary production sector. Farmers are increasingly dependent on single buyers for their produce.
Most of the companies today dealing with mineral wealth are multi/trans-national and are not interested in individual national development but merely in extracting as much profit as possible for the shareholders. Their executives are paid many times more than our so-called decision makers and can draw on huge amounts to pursue decisions which suit them. Some countries are supposed to be amenable to bribery; in ours (hopefully) it gets results by selling their version of development to a group whose main modus operandi consists of selling dreams themselves, namely politicians. Stupidity rather than cupidity!
Any protection that was afforded by the tyranny of distance has been wiped out by the massive cargo ships available today, again owned of course by overseas companies.
The Australia we look back on (probably with rose tinted spectacles) was the creation of post-war policies driven by a vision of what this country should become after the long ride on the sheep’s back. Most of the methods used are seen as anathema today, tariffs, credit restrictions and government intervention in large scale projects, physical such as the Snowy River hydroelectric scheme and scientific such as the development of the CSIRO. However flawed, there was a genuine shared vision of an egalitarian society.
We hear so much of sovereign borders and so little of what Australia is and should be. Border security but not food security; a future fund but not an examination of how our mineral and oil resource exports should be balanced against our future needs. Society’s needs are being increasingly seen as a problem that will be solved by the free market – user pays and bugger the hindmost. Worse still, poverty is even being seen by many as demonstrating a lack of character rather than a lack of opportunity.
National identity is being redefined by an hour or two on Anzac Day and the ability to chant “Oi, oi oi” at sporting events. Sending a ‘hero-gram’ sponsored by some media organisation or other is hardly a substitute for the ‘vision splendid’.
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Jimbur,<snip>

I read your post with some interest. Would be grateful if you could give me a hand with a couple of things, if you could please ? NOt asking you to discuss anything any further.

I've googled richard looney economics oil 3rd world and variations thereof but cannot find the paper you refer to - can you give me some other keywords to include that would help me find a relevant site please ?

Any good websites or books that you can recommend that discuss possible futures for Australia ?

Bill</snip>

Bill, Nowadays he's professor Robert E Looney and I think has something to do with the US Navy. Putting his name in google should give you a list of his papers which of course are many by now. I can't dig my copy out without turning the study upside down, and then again it might be in a filing cabinet in the shed.:C
Possible futures is more difficult as each political grouping seems to have their own version of where we are and how to get out of it. The biggest problem is that doom and gloom and/or extreme solutions sell more books and have more adherents.
oops got his name wrong Robert not richard:
http://relooney.info/Bob-Looney-CV.pdf

Bill, I think this was the article:
Determinants of Third World mineral-oil economies external debt

Robert E. Looney

Jim,

I have also been surprised at things I have seen in the market. Recently I was given a couple of sheets of birch faced plywood. On the edge was stamped 'Made in China". It prompted me to wonder at the economics of shipping a piece of plywood from China to Texas. If I were to try to mail such a thing I am sure that, even if possible, the shipping would be astronomical. How can such an anomaly exist? What are the hidden factors?
I think that the west has been bought. Nations are no longer sovereign, they are beholden to those with money, i.e. capital. The politicians facilitate in the furtherance of their self interests. Free trade agreements? Bull, I think that such initiatives simply remove barriers to the free flow of capital and the powers that it wields.
In philosophy classes I was required to read Marx. At the time I rejected it as unrealistic utopinaism and I still reject his prescriptions for socializing the means of production but I must give him credit as being a keen observer of mid-19th century England. He and Dickens both saw the same society and both reacted with revulsion. Thus I think Marx was correct in his appraisal of how the world of his time worked. Capital ruled all and the political process was its servant. In the US I feel that we are having a similar episode. History never repeats itself of course but the parallels are to me striking. These days however the average American is so poorly read and ill educated that they have no knowledge of these times and therefore can not see the present in historical context.
Unfortunately it seems that the forces of capital are pillaging Australia too. As I said above, the discussions you are having there remind me of those I heard in the 70's and 80's here.

Cheers,
Rob

Rob, I remember talking to a businessman who had been doing business in Russia (when it was still the USSR). According to him they were using Marxist economics -talking about surplus value etc - as prescriptive, not descriptive as it was.
One of the most important works of the time was written by Engels. "The condition of the working-class in England". It is largely ignored being tainted as it were by association.

Ah yes! Marx, Dickens, Engels,Hegel. What a quartet of great observers and writers!!

Hegel had very interesting views on rights, obligations and choices and I think these are often overlooked
when discussing politics and economics. For instance Hegel's point of where do your rights impinge on my
rights is an oft overlooked and extremely valid consideration that ought to be put in the front of the minds
of decision makers - at any level. Alas we see the results of this not being the case all around us.

What really worries me is the tendency of conservative politicians to repeatedly want to wind back the clock
to a new kind of laissez-faire economics. This is precisely what the aforementioned writers were so distressed
by.

Artme and Jim,

I always hesitate to mention Marx or Engels because in the current reactionary climate I live under in the US. Invoking them frequently invites trouble such as being labeled 'sum kinda com-you-nist' simply for discussing their works or ideas. I see that you, and perhaps Aussies generally, have benefited from a more liberal and extensive kind of education than we have here and I find it refreshing.

Cheers,
Rob

Rob, It's a sad situation when many of the formative ideas shaping modern life are ignored because of the race, creed or perceived political colouring of the authors. I'm not talking of the US in particular here, it seems to be world-wide. If we don't understand where the ideas come from and what preconceptions are behind them we're heading for an intellectual dark age.

Oh so true Jim!!

I don't consider myself to be as erudite as many I know, but I sometimes shake my head in wonder
at the general ignorance of others.

Our 24 year old son has a very inquiring mind. He reads Time magazine and does a huge amount of reading
on the internet He opened my eyes to the true concept of anarchy because of a Uni. assignment he was doing.
In return I can still show him that I have knowledge of things he doesn't. I am just glad he is not an ignorant
among us and is willing to learn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyle

If you work in an industry where your core work hours are say 10.00Pm to 06.00Am 5 days a week then I do not believe you need to have penalty rates!
If you are required (asked) to work "over' those times then yes some form of overtime rate should apply.
But your core hours should only be at the standard award rates.

That should get a few comments.

---

Have you ever tried staying awake at 3am in the morning? Humans are not supposed to be awake at this time of the day. Studies have proved that prolonged periods spent working outside normal hours of waking are not good for mental and physical health. IMHO people who are regularly required to work these hours are entitled to some form of monetary compensation.

Heard an interesting interview with Alan Jones and some farmer from Wyoming in the US, who had been bought over by one of the anti fracking lobby groups.The gas companies just marched onto his land and started setting up wells and fracking s..t out of the place, and as a result he now has wells all over his property ,he can't raise cattle as the water is undrinkable it is full of methane gas, they have to truck fresh water in daily,and there is a permanent smell similar to diesel fuel which permeates the air,when asked about showering he said the authorities told him to leave all doors open when he was showering,to prevent the build up of methane gas (not b...dy likely, given that the outside temps. have been minus 10 to minus 25 during the day!!)
Is this the shape of things to come? I will make further enquiries as to when and where he is lecturing as I would be very interested to hear more from him:((:((

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kiwigeo

Have you ever tried staying awake at 3am in the morning? Humans are not supposed to be awake at this time of the day. Studies have proved that prolonged periods spent working outside normal hours of waking are not good for mental and physical health. IMHO people who are regularly required to work these hours are entitled to some form of monetary compensation.

---

Studies showing increased incidence of breast cancer and heart disease have been published. I know that I have read of an initiative to give hazard pay to night workers has been floated, perhaps by the Danish.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by acmegridley

Heard an interesting interview with Alan Jones and some farmer from Wyoming in the US, who had been bought over by one of the anti fracking lobby groups.The gas companies just marched onto his land and started setting up wells and fracking s..t out of the place, and as a result he now has wells all over his property ,he can't raise cattle as the water is undrinkable it is full of methane gas, they have to truck fresh water in daily,and there is a permanent smell similar to diesel fuel which permeates the air,when asked about showering he said the authorities told him to leave all doors open when he was showering,to prevent the build up of methane gas (not b...dy likely, given that the outside temps. have been minus 10 to minus 25 during the day!!)
Is this the shape of things to come? I will make further enquiries as to when and where he is lecturing as I would be very interested to hear more from him:((:((

---

We have a great deal of fracking going on just south of San Antonio. Recently we were returning from a trip to Houston and the air was rank with fuel, rather like the smells surrounding oil refineries I remember from my youth.
All of our water here comes from wells. When fracking first started here I installed a whole-house carbon filter in our water feeder. The other day I tasted water direct from the tap from a non-filtered source and it was horrible. It did not taste of petroleum but it was very bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by artme

Ah yes! Marx, Dickens, Engels,Hegel. What a quartet of great observers and writers!!

Hegel had very interesting views on rights, obligations and choices and I think these are often overlooked
when discussing politics and economics. For instance Hegel's point of where do your rights impinge on my
rights is an oft overlooked and extremely valid consideration that ought to be put in the front of the minds
of decision makers - at any level. Alas we see the results of this not being the case all around us.

What really worries me is the tendency of conservative politicians to repeatedly want to wind back the clock
to a new kind of laissez-faire economics. This is precisely what the aforementioned writers were so distressed
by.

---

Marx is interesting. As we enter a post-scarcity society this will become more common. It is not the best option though.

A true lasses-faire economy is the best option overlaid with a mix of Individual Mutualism combined with a Basic Wage movement.

This isn't communism, as yanks spit out as a vituperative, but a simple division of lesser resources to stop poverty. Let the rich be rich for they work for it, but eliminate the negative social impacts of poverty and very negative American-Style conservative capitalism.

My views on taxation are also similar. ALL taxes are evil and must be abolished. They only encourage over-governance, waste, cronyism and resource misallocation (which is the real crime).

Ye gods Evan!! You really are a radical!!!

I'm going to have brain fade trying to decide if your ideas are floated as a challenge, a joke or are workable in some way.!!!

Personally I have no objection to taxation. I object to the fact that my money, and that of others, is needlessly squandered.


( That's a start on your observations)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by artme

Ye gods Evan!! You really are a radical!!!

I'm going to have brain fade trying to decide if your ideas are floated as a challenge, a joke or are workable in some way.!!!

Personally I have no objection to taxation. I object to the fact that my money, and that of others, is needlessly squandered.


( That's a start on your observations)

---

Shhh, Evanism on the board, I'm in Secret Squirrel mode here :)

Many of my ideas are brought from areas that are destroyed by war.... Japan post ww2 with MacArthur, West Germany after the war...hong kong. These areas were destroyed on an apolocolyptic scale. Other areas used established governance and it took years to grow out of poverty. The three listed used a decisively different model...almost anarchy, zero government regulation, non existent taxes, free enterprise on a scale never before seen nor since replicated sprung forth. Full employment ensued where people were sucked in from every region and country. Crime evaporated. Business and investment went ballistic. I'll see if I can find the study. It will blow your mind, guaranteed.

I hate all forms of taxation. Every cent of tax is forcefully removed under threat of retaliation from productive enterprises and individuals and used/squandered by unaccountable non-competitive governments to support their own agendas.

I VERY FIRMLY believe the market, the true market, not what we have now, supplies all solutions and the right price. Taxation, government interference and subsequent inflation will always destroy wealth and surprises creativity.

Look, I'm not ignorant. My ideas and the ideas of other thinkers will go nowhere. Government is its own self perpetuating nightmare and people ultimately want to be controlled. They talk of maintaining their own destinies but this is a populist delusion.

It's my primary goal never to rely on a government, it's "services" or really be any part of the machinery. No, I'm not a Survivalist or one of those north American gun toting government hating whack jobs.

BTW, I'm a Buddhist....so I'm not supposed to get worked up about this stuff...but when someone says " the Labor party does such a good job of...." we'll, I just want to kill something!