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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
The generosity of some of the member on here with time, materials, and knowledge is fantastic!
Doug did you get my message about the other brass bits, etc and catching up? I'll be at the forum stand at the wood show also first up Sunday morning.
My question would be why were you buying it?
Given the short peices you need, a trip to the skip of the nearest building site would get you all you need and more.
Oh and by brass, I assume you mean copper - my brother has been a plumber for almost 30 years, I've seen brass fittings by the ute load but only ever copper pipe?
And by "timber" I assume you mean "chipboard"? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by smidsy
No, if I meant copper I would have said copper. :?
Does copper have an ID or an OD?
Regardless of which it is sold by, your standard copper plumbing pipe has an ID that is too small for what I wanted.
In the end, I got a product that is better for the job than the one I was negotiating with "Mr Cheese Shop" for, with the added bonus of being cheaper and already cut to length and deburred and saved me petrol and time. :2tsup:
I am happy with the outcome
Cheers
Doug :2tsup:
Now are you sure you're happy? I mean there was no argument (5 minute or otherwise) about whether or not there's a measurable ID. There didn't even seem to be any plain old contradiction.Quote:
Originally Posted by doug3030
Think you better send them back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
I told you! I am not going to argue unless you pay. :D
Doug
Do you take cards?
Well there you go. You've got your tube and you now know what to ask for in the future. It can't get much better than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by doug3030
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustynail
Yep, I asked for what I wanted and I got what I wanted.
I wouldn't ask the question any differently next time because it was the only way to describe what I wanted.
I will, however, be more careful as to who I ask it of.
Cheers
Doug :2tsup:
That will limit your options.
DougQuote:
Originally Posted by doug3030
OD and wall thickness? (That's for the tube not the salesman's skull :) ) .
Regards
Paul
Yep, it will limit it to those who can deliver the goods and cut out the time-wasters, regardless of how amusing thy can be. No point in contacting those that are unwilling to help, is there?Quote:
Originally Posted by rustynail
So, tell me RustyNail, who seems to be the only one who thinks I was being unreasonable, how would YOU have phrased the initial inquiry given that the OD was not important, but an approximate ID was? Remember that from my initial description I did in a roundabout way get exactly what I wanted so the directions were clear enough for everyone who posted in the thread to understand what I wanted INCLUDING YOU. :p:p:p:p:p
Cheers
Doug :2tsup:
Yes, Paul, but when I talk about the density of the population I am not necessarily referring to how many of them live in a given square kilometer. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Bushmiller
CHeers
Doug :2tsup:
Hi Doug,Quote:
Originally Posted by doug3030
Thank you for your question. In a past life, I had the unenviable task of dealing with the public and government in trade related matters. Inquiries often became confusing due to the enquirer not being familiar with the correct terminology. Terms such as thingamejig, watsy or gizzmo tended to be a little vague and valuable time would be lost in trying to identify the item in question. The introduction of metric also created some further confusion when interposed with imperial. In the mid 80s the NSW Government Standards Committee decided to instruct manufacturers and industry to develop product specifications with standard terminology. I was one of the manufacturing representatives involved.
Now to answer your question. I would have asked for pipe as pipe is measured in ID. That simple.
Granted the salesperson could have been a little more informative rather than just repeating his original statement that tube doesn't have an ID, but he was probably sick and tired of the ill informed and wasn't prepared to take on an educational roll. Having served in that capacity I have empathy.
You are quite correct in pointing out the fact everyone understood your requirement (including me.) But that doesn't detract from the fact that what you were asking was technically incorrect. Therefore, there is no justification in holding the salesperson up for general ridicule or questioning his mental capacity, as some seem to deem necessary. He was correct if not articulate.
Life is an ongoing learning curve. Rarely does a day go by we are not offered the chance to learn something new.
This has been yours.
"If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen" In the same vein if Joe Public gives you a pain in the proverbial don't take a job as a counter hopper. Find one where you are hidden in a back office without a phone. Don't put your customers off, the guy wanting a $1 collet today might have a few grand order for his boss next week.
Just my two bobs worth
Ok, so lets assume that I can start again.Quote:
Originally Posted by rustynail
I have looked at his online catalog and have determined that he has brass tube, but there is no mention of brass pipe at all.
It would probably have gone like this:
Me: Hi, I am after some brass pipe with an ID of about half an inch.
Him: I don't have any brass pipe mate, I only have brass tube.
Me: Great. Do you have any with an ID of about half an inch?
Him: Tube doesn't have an ID.
Me: Yes I know. That's why I asked for pipe. But seeing as how you have no brass pipe do you have a piece of brass tube that might suit. I am not all that worried about the OD, but it is important to my project that the ID be about half an inch.
Him: tube doesn't have an ID
Now we are back at the original start-point and the conversation will go the same way as before. All we have done is prolong the agony.
Cheers
Doug
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustynail
I think your look at this through prejudices based on your own experience!
He doesn't sell pipe I am sure he would say as it was a hobby shop not a plumbing supply.Quote:
Now to answer your question. I would have asked for pipe as pipe is measured in ID. That simple.
Sorry but the sales person saying tube doesn't have an ID……….That is incorrect!! Tube may not generally be sold by a specified ID but it certainly has one.Quote:
Granted the salesperson could have been a little more informative rather than just repeating his original statement that tube doesn't have an ID, but he was probably sick and tired of the ill informed and wasn't prepared to take on an educational roll. Having served in that capacity I have empathy.
You are quite correct in pointing out the fact everyone understood your requirement (including me.) But that doesn't detract from the fact that what you were asking was technically incorrect.
I come from a design background and have even been involved with designing and producing extrusions where I had to supply the die drawings for manufacture. The crucial dimension is the crucial dimension regardless of what is generally used by people per industry. For example plastic plumbing pipe comes in a variety of sizes but wall thickness, and external dia are largely irrelevant because there is an industry standard and it only comes in set parameters so you can easily specify by one dimension only. Bass tube can come in various nominal wall thicknesses, with internal and external varying as a result. Pipe and tube are largely in terms of hobby requirements the same thing therefore asking for something that meets your critical dimension is a perfectly acceptable question.
If the sales person had gotten off his high horse rather than repeating an incorrect statement the issue could have very quickly been resolved…..OD - wall thickness = ID. Yes there is an id if not it would be rod/ round bar and not have a wall thickness either.
So I would say it is the sales person who needed to be educated not Doug as you suggest.
.Quote:
Therefore, there is no justification in holding the salesperson up for general ridicule or questioning his mental capacity, as some seem to deem necessary. He was correct if not articulate.
Life is an ongoing learning curve. Rarely does a day go by we are not offered the chance to learn something new.
This has been yours
Sorry I repeat the the salesperson WAS INCORRECT saying tube doesn't have an ID……….That is incorrect!! Tube may not generally be sold by a specified ID but it certainly has one.
Could it be possible the salesman was a little less than articulate by saying tube has no ID when what he meant was tube is not listed or nominated with an ID? The same could be said for pipe not having an OD.
If the original request had been for pipe there may have been every chance the customer would have been told we dont sell pipe, only tube. The informed customer would know the difference between the two and proceeded from there. It has become obvious the purchaser was not aware of the difference between tube and pipe at the time of the original discussion, but I am sure he is now. So, therefore is now educated. Hopefully, the salesman has also gained something from the experience and will rethink his response in future.
Prejudice plays no part here. The purpose of setting up standards was to prevent confusion within industry and, to a large extent, has been successful.
In this case, the critical dimension is determined by product description.
There are so many things that are known by different names in different places, often state to state. It all adds to the confusion. So, when an explanation of differentiation is forthcoming would it not be prudent to take it on board rather than shoot the messenger?
:no: :no:Quote:
Originally Posted by DSEL74
OD - (wall thickness * 2) = ID. :2tsup: :2tsup:
RustyNail, you don't happen to have a brother who runs a hobby shop in Melbourne by any chance, do you?
That was obvious but the salesman should have realized this and explained this to help the customer. He could have been helpful and gain a sale. In these times every sale is important and a salesman upsetting a customer will do so at it's peril. Gone are the days that you can treat a customer as an idiot for with the internet one upset customer can, by using YouTube or Facebook, bring a big company down. If this was posted on Facebook it would go viral within the hour.Quote:
Originally Posted by rustynail
All I can say that to me that sounds like a load of codswallop for your prejudice seems to be showing.Quote:
Originally Posted by rustynail
Peter.
Does YouTube have an ID?
Ok lets have a look at the link posted by Bedford in this thread to explain the difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by B[FONT=arial black
"Pipes
The purpose with a pipe is the transport of a fluid like water, oil or similar, and the most import property is the capacity or the inside diameter.
For a ASME/ANSI B 36.10 Welded and Seamless Wrought Steel Pipe the inside diameter - ID - of a NPS 2 inches pipe with
- schedule 40 is 2.067"
- schedule 80 is 1.939"
The inside diameters are close to 2" and the nominal diameter related to the inside diameter. Outside diameter are 2.375" for both schedules.
Since the outside diameter of a single nominal pipe size is kept constant the inside diameter of a pipe will depend on the "schedule" or the thickness of the pipe. The schedule and the actual thickness of a pipe varies with the size of the pipe."
So if pipe is sold by the Inside Diameter, why is a 2" ID pipe either 2.067" or 1.939" depending on whether it is schedule 40 or 80, yet the OD remains constant?
Well of course it is so that schedule 40 and schedule 80 pipe will both fit into the same fittings.
If you ask for 2" pipe neither the ID or the OD are 2". Looks a tad confusing to me
"Tubes
The nominal dimensions of tubes are based on the outside diameter. If we look at Copper Tubes - ASTM B88 the outside diameter of a 2" pipe is 2.125", relatively close to 2".
The inside diameter of a tube will depend on the thickness of the tube. The thickness is often specified as a gauge. If we look atCopper Tubes - ASTM B88 the wall thickness of 0.083"of a 2" pipe is gauge 14.
The tolerances are higher with tubes compared to pipes and tubes are often more expensive to produce than pipes."
So Tubes are made to higher tolerances but a 2" tube OD actually measures 2.125"! So if you ask for a 2" tube neither the ID or the OD will be 2" either.
In summary, tubes are sold by the OD but the OD you ask for is not what you get, and pipes are sold by the ID and the ID you ask for is not what you get either.
If I was in the business of selling this stuff to hobbyists I would not generally expect them to know this stuff. If I was selling to trade then I would expect them to know.
I asked the same questions of major suppliers as well but they were all helpful, and a tad expensive and far away when it came to the offer I got to cut them all to length.
I chose not to argue with "Mr Cheese Shop" days ago but it just goes on and on in here.
It is obvious that the ID and the OD are a nominal figure and are not in any single case at all an accurate measurement. It is just a label to give it a name to sell it by and give a rough idea of the size. They could just as easily called a b c d e f etc.
I got exactly what I wanted with the same opening question and was understood by everyone else who I asked about their product.
I am going back to the shed to fit some brass ferrules cit from a brass tube with an ID of approximately half an inch, whether they exist or not.
Cheers
Doug
Maybe I'll get my money's worth after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by doug3030
Ten minute argument please, with all the trimmings.
Sorry, you are in the wrong room. It's being hit on the head lessons in here. :oo:Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
Doug
Without getting involved with shopkeepers etc, one reason tube is referred to by the OD is that it often goes with a matching fitting where the ID is not so critical.
Things like towel rail ends need the correct OD so they fit properly, Towel Rail End Brackets, Economy Range, Chrome from Miles Nelson
And also things like fittings for copper TUBE (that everyone calls pipe!) :D Copper Compression Fittings With O-Ring - China Copper Fittings, Copper Fittings With O-Ring
And yet, as I quoted above, for pipe, where its the ID that supposedly counts:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bedford
The inside diameters are close to 2" and the nominal diameter related to the inside diameter. Outside diameter are 2.375" for both schedules.
Since the outside diameter of a single nominal pipe size is kept constant the inside diameter of a pipe will depend on the "schedule" or the thickness of the pipe. The schedule and the actual thickness of a pipe varies with the size of the pipe."
So the pipe, which is sold by a nominal ID, which is never the same as it actually is, also maintains the same OD over the different wall thicknesses, so that only one size of fittings or ends are needed.
Its the same argument but one is ID the other is OD and neither are accurate.
Its a wonder anything more complicated than my little ferrules ever gets done under this system.
Cheers
Doug
Doug
Really we have only just started. Tube, I think, qualifies for that term when it's wall thickness is of a sufficient thinness :?. Once the wall becomes suitably thick it becomes pipe, which is then described as, for example 2" NB where the NB stands for nominal bore.
However, if that has made things clear, it shouldn't have done, as it is nowhere near as simple as that. Fortunately, the steel makers produce Steel Mass books. These are not super-powered Jesuit priest hand books, but a pretty good guide to all the steel profiles including inside and outside dimensions as well as weights.
For tube, you can't go past a digital vernier gauge, although I accept it has it's limitations over the phone :rolleyes: .
Regards
Paul
Thats for sure Paul, I have been looking further into some of the stuff on the link Bedford posted. I am not blaming you for the content Bedford. I am just using your name to identify the link, OK?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmiller
To quote:
"Pipes
The purpose with a pipe is the transport of a fluid like water, oil or similar, and the most import property is the capacity or the inside diameter."
Well if the capacity is so important and there is such a big variation in the capacity of a section 40 2" pipe compared to a section 80 2" pipe?
Schedule 40 pipe - ID 2.067" = cross section of 3.3556 square inches
Schedule 80 pipe - ID 1.939" = cross section of 2.9529 square inches
That's a whopping 17% difference in cross section which may result in over 20% difference in volume of fluid that can pass through in a given time under given conditions but they are both classed as nominally 2" pipe - because capacity is the most important factor in pipe which is why it is measured by its ID (but not accurately)
No wonder I asked for tube :D :D :D
Cheers
Doug
DougQuote:
Originally Posted by doug3030
If you ever get to grips with tube and want to further your knowledge with pipe, this may help:
http://www.bjhowes.com.au/Know%20You...eel%20Book.pdf
Regards
Paul
THE SCENE: Man sitting at a desk, staring at an old black 1970s phone on a desk. His hand is at the ready, waiting to pounce on the handpiece.
RING RING
HIM (with authority): “Hollow Metal Cylinders Incorporated, hello”
ME (tentatively): “Yes, I was wondering if you could help me please? Do you look like Michael Palin with a false moustache, spectacles and a white technician’s jacket? Blue shirt, striped tie, and so on?”
HIM (surprised): “Funny you should mention that Sir. I do, as a matter of fact, but only for today, and only while I’m here. I’ve been waiting for your call Sir!. How can I be of assistance to you today?”
ME (surprised, and a little feisty): “Oh good, because I look like John Cleese in a wet suit, with a fish in each hand, which I am prepared to use. (cautiously) I’d like to buy some Hollow Metal Cylinders please”.
HIM (gratified): “YES SIR. What size would you like?”
ME (knowingly): “Oh no you don’t – you won’t trick me like that with your silly salesman’s tricks!”
HIM (bemused and confused): “Beg pardon Sir?”
ME (confidently): “I said your salesman’s tricks won’t fool me. I know exactly what I want!”
HIM (with a slight rise in arrogance): “Glad to hear it Sir. Would you mind telling me what it is that you want?”
ME (needing reassurance): “Well, as long as you don’t laugh.”
HIM (reassuringly, but with choked laughter - already): “No, no, not at all Sir.”
ME (hesitantly reassured): “Alright. I’d like a brass hollow cylinder with an internal diameter of ½”
HIM (confident again): “Yes Sir. Would that be tube or pipe you were after?”
ME (on the ball): “AHA! YOU SEE? Playing games already! I told you, you won’t trick ME! You can call it what you like, but as long as it has an internal diameter of ½” and a wall thickness of approx 1mm then that is what I want.”
HIM (professional): “Hmmmm. I’ll just need to clarify that sir. Yes, you’re mixing Imperial and Metric measurements together, so I’ll ask you to use just one system to avoid confusion – yours and mine, Sir. AND, you really must tell me if the hollow metal cylinder you require is tube or pipe. There’s a difference you know!”
ME (aggravated): “NOW LOOK! I’ve already told you everything you need to know! Do you have a product that matches that description, or not?”
HIM (arrogant): “Well we probably do Sir, but in tube or pipe? I mean it’s a pretty simple question. You do understand the very simple question, don’t you Sir, or should I rephrase it? Yes, perhaps I will - pipe or tube sir?”
ME (confused): “I thought I was John Cleese??”
HIM (apologetic): “Quite right Sir. My apologies! Now then, tube or pipe?”
ME: (gambling): “Ah, I’ll take the, ah, ….just a sec……I’ll take the ….p…. no, the tu…..no, it’s PIPE that I want!”
HIM (confident again): “Ah, excellent choice Sir. I do believe that we may have that in stock!”
ME (relieved): “Well thank kee-rist for that. I thought I was going to order the wrong thing. I happen to know, you know, that tube doesn’t have an internal diameter!”
HIM (indignant): “Yes it does!”
ME (confused again): “What ever do you mean? Just because the inside is circular, it doesn’t mean it has an ID. You know that as well as I do!”
HIM (smartarse): “Ah, that was just a trick to make sure you REALLY knew what you were on about. Well done Sir, I see you know your tubes from your pipes eh? No fooling you sir! May I ask, what did Sir wish to use these Hollow Metal Cylinders for?”
ME (back on my own territory, and confident): “Oh well, I want to make some ferrules, but I guess you don’t know what they are. Yuk, yuk, they have an ID AND an OD, you know! Bet you’ve never heard of that before!”
HIM (to someone in the background): “HEY BERT?! This bloke just wants some Ferrule Hollow Metal Cylinders in Brass. How much have we got?”
ME (indignant): “WHAT? You mean you have an actual product specifically for Ferrules??”
HIM (also indignant): “Well yes of course we do. You only had to ask for it, you know. Sheesh! Tsk tsk tsk!”
ME: (irate now): “Well how the hell would I know that you know what I want? And you're being John Cleese again!”
HIM (perfunctorily): “Well if you said what you mean, instead of playing these stupid games, we could all have a laugh. As it is I’ve had to prise the information out of you. Typical bloody customer. Think they know everything, when all they really know is what they want! Starve the crows, I'm sick of know-alls like you! And WE have to do all the brainwork. I’m thinking of resigning you know.”
ME (completely bamboozled, bemused and amused): “What, because I asked for a specific item, AND got the terminology correct? You're balmy mate!”
HIM (curtly): “That it then, SIR!? Anything else? Hollow Metal Squares with non 90° corners perhaps?”
ME (ineptly controlling laughter): “No, that WILL be all for today. Thank you for your excellent help! OH! WAIT! There is just one more thing. What is the diameter of the outside of these pipes”
HIM (knowingly): “Ah, I see you’re learning Sir! Well done! I thought for a moment there you were going to ask for the Outside Diameter, but we both that pipes don’t have one eh?! The diameter of the outside is of course 14.7mm give or a take 1/128 of an inch.”
ME (relieved): OH FANTASTIC, it’s just the tube I’m after!”
HIM (outraged): “I’m sorry, did you say ‘tube’?”
ME (backpeddling fast): “No, I profoundly apologise! I meant to say pipe”.
HIM (in the knowledge that he has won): “HA! TOO LATE! No way am I selling it to you now! I’d rather eat sandwiches for dinner than sell this t…….pi……hollow metal cylinder to you, YOU FOOL! Goodbye, and don’t call again!”
Beep…beep…beep…beep
Man, I’m glad I didn’t ask why it’s called a ferrule, when it’s made of brass.
Brett
Can I take it there won't be any pipe or tube for sale at the BM GTG 3: Just Oil and glue. Do we bring our own containers and will I get more if it is a large tube container or a large pipe container? Also how much is it to argue the toss? Could I bring Sybil to argue on my behalf? Oh, wait a moment, she might be contracted to a different mob :? .
You tell a good story :D .
Regards
Paul
Fency
you're a sad sad man!
:rolleyes:
Best laugh I've had all day Fency :2tsup:
Well, Mr W. Bush Miller, before we go any further, answer me this: is a Didgereedoo a tube or a pipe?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmiller
DO be careful how you answer!
FF or TT for tripe writer of the year?
:D
What exactly strikes you as codswallop and what exactly have I said that you find prejudicial?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturdee
Every business has, from time to time, had to deal with dissatisfied customers. The manner in which they do this plays a large part in determining their success. To say a salesman upsetting a customer will do so at its peril is not necessarily correct, in that it breaks both ways; the customer upsetting the salesman can also produce a less than desirable outcome. I think both parties have a case to answer and therefore the need for one to ridicule the other is somewhat unnecessary. Why is it that people can't tolerate shortcomings in others, yet sweep their own under the carpet as if they dont exist? Nobody likes criticism, I should know, Ive copped enough of it here. May I suggest, an important character trait is the ability to own your mistakes. None of us are perfect.
We all fall short from time to time, but the ability to accept those short comings in others makes for a better society.
Please, if nothing else, could we agree that pipe is pipe and tube is tube? ID and OD?
How long are we talking? What is the diametre (ID and OD).... I could go on. In fact the ID is traditionally a pipe :D.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
Regards
Paul
Neither. Its in the same class as the bagpipes and the alpenhorn. Its an ill wind that nobody blows any good. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
Cheers
Doug
Went into a shop once and asked for a grip of Tarzan's tube. They didnt know what I was talking about. I tried to elaborate by asking for the stick that stuffs. They must have been out of stock.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
The things that happen when you dont have the correct terminology.
The didg is a tree with a pipe up it, but not all trees with a pipe up them are didges, only the ones in shops with a price tag on em and even some of them are suspect. If you buy one in London, you can take it on the tube.
I'll have you know... sir,
... That I resemble that remark! :UQuote:
FF or TT for tripe writer of the year?
BUT
At least I don't waste my time here, following every post that someone I dislike makes, and reporting them ALL to the mods! :rolleyes:
It's funny - but the posts I cop the most flak from the mods for (I'm on their watch list now you see) :) are the very same ones that ordinary members give me the most "likes" for. :? :2tsup:
At the end of the day the old rule holds fast....
If you want to upset someone - tell them a lie....
But
If you want to upset EVERYONE - tell them the truth! :D
http://speakfearlessly.net/wp-conten...uth-9789dd.jpg
I suspect now - having called it how I see it - that my 'banning' is just a matter of time. :)
So be it.
Cheers!
Well, I was nearly about to say "CORRECT" until I re-read your answer, and I'm afraid I have to give you a "Fail" on a technicality: in the same class as the Bagwhat?Quote:
Originally Posted by doug3030