Spray equipment ?

Hi Mr Asquared,

Theres not a great deal of info out there on this topic. However there are some "honky doree" forums that deal in spray painting in general.

The one I shall post the link herewith is in fact for automotive hot rods! Yes hot RODS! Well your probably thinkin what the hell has this got to do with woodworking? Well to some not much but to others -----" A whole lotta Rosie"! lol.

My jargon by no means is humour but rather a keen eye for detailing. If one can master the gleam and shine of a hotrod for show, then timber finishing would also result in this grand piano shine.

This site has lots of information on 2 pacs, enamel, acrylic lacquer, just to mention a few. If one can master a perfect finish in auto design then timber finishing would also be accomplished except for substrate coating and undercoat procedures.

Handling the spray gun incorrectly will give the same sort of results finishing auto or dining room furniture. Auto painting of which is "fun" will showw how good a spray painter you really are. I get a mirror finish without any buffing what so ever.

http://www.hotrodders.com/f19


Have fun reading this link. Its a good spray painters reference no matter what you intend on painting.

Have fun!!!

violincrafter

Violincrafter, Thanks for the tip. Had a quick look and there is a lot there. As one of my loves is making guitars - electrics so far - , the "hotrod" paint jobs has some relevance!

Cheers
AA

Hi Violincrafter,
What make spray guns are you using?
Ash

Hi Folks!
I have used a couple of guns that work fine. The touch up gun is a trade air unit and this one (for me) performs very well and delivers a very fine atomization. The other gun is a high volume low pressure gravity feed gun from supercheap auto shop. It has various adjusters that need to be fine tuned but after a feww test patterns works very well also.

This one does have reduced overspray in the surrounding environment.

Heres a pic of both of them:-

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6.../sprayguns.jpg

As I mentioned earlier I did a test to see the difference between the 2. I may not have explained it fully but I tried the following:-

after the compressor reached its full tank capacity ( 40 ltrs at 115 psi) I used both guns to see how they differ in taxing the compressor.

There was very little difference between the gravity HVLP and suction touch up gun.

The touch up went for 28 seconds continuously before it taxed the comp down to the 85 psi cut in point.

The HVLP gun was allowed to work continuosly with a full tank and went for 26 second of continual spraying to tax the compressor to go down to 85 psi and then cuts in to refil the tank.

In my opinion both worked similar working times but HVLP had less overspray. This in turn makes it more environmentally friendly no matter what paint you use but especially 2 pacs. Thus gravity is essential owing to isocyanites in overspay regulations.

I am going to get a 770 gun but after being in a paint shop the other week it was pointed out that there are guns that are copies of the star 770 as in bunnings 770 gun.

The proprietor of a auto body shop sells the same thing but another generic and this also is a good gun and leaves a factory in asia from the back door export dispatch as the star 770 from the front in gloss advertising boxed package. As far as the carba tec HVLP unit its the same as the unit I have but mine comes with extra bottle, seals and grommets, extra nozzle and tip, and blow moulded storage box.

I know people will argue the point, but my friend at the auto paint shop is good enough advise for me. He orders them and I believe his advice.

Anyway each to their own but at the end of the day as another professional painter said to me long ago , " Its the spraypainter and his technique that makes or breaks the job". Runs will happen even with a $10000000.00 gun. As with "fish eyes, orange peel effect, and blushing in poor workshop conditions". Crazing and other problems are a result of poor workshop temperatures as is humidity blistering just to mention a few.

Anyway thats my opinion but am very happy with these guns. :D

Ps I have made a 1 litre pot from brass for the touch up gun to make it work even further. Two touch up guns for the price of one! Suits me fine ! I've achieved better results than any panel shop can do and I dont need to convince myself about it ! lol

PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT AS WITH TEST RESULTS :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D NO TWO IF'S About IT!!!!!


Here it is :_


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ho/touchup.jpg

Asquared, a couple of useful links..... On Major Panics rcommendation I contacted Mirotone re their Lacquer finishes (via the website). They rsponded with heaps of info on spraying technique etc... Worthwhile contacting...

http://www.ganet.org/dnr/p2ad/pblcations/paintbas.html
http://www.mirotone.com.au/locat.htm

Richard

Although this is not exactly a woodworkers finish it still holds true to the experience of the spraypainter AND NOT THE EQUIPMENT! :mad:

Here is some photos of a job done by "professionals" that use industry professional equipment LOL :mad:

This job had to be worked back to the original substrate and refinished by myself to get a proper result. It is well known that this shop fixes PRESTIGE AND NEW CARS (LOL not mentioning any names but lol to those who get this sort of a job,,,it could be YOU!!! ) :p :p :p :p

I have repaired this and the finish,,,,,well just fab using my spray guns. These guys DO USE the "top guns" but its just in the hands of someone that doesnt use the correct procedures! Whats good about using a $800.00 spray gun if this happens????????? :eek:


Heres the photos of a professionals work:- :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...sho/fault1.jpg



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...nsho/fault.jpg



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...sho/fault8.jpg




This is my spray gun and my job is "picture perfect" as is my work!
Anyway heres the photos of a good gun in a good painter (Guaranteed for LIFE!!!):- So dont believe that by getting an expensive gun will make you professional,,,oooooops maybe it does like the photos above!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ensho/gun2.jpg

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D ;) ;) ;)

Geez, don't talk yaself up too much! we might start to believe you are that good ;)


No gun is good in the hands of someone that has bad technique, fullstop....

Someone with good technique and experience can pick up any gun and make a good finish.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shane Watson

Geez, don't talk yaself up too much! we might start to believe you are that good ;)


No gun is good in the hands of someone that has bad technique, fullstop....

Someone with good technique and experience can pick up any gun and make a good finish.

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That applies to most woodie tools & machines :) :)

MajorPanic, Shane, Echidna, Violincrafter, anybody..... Feedback appreciated...

I rate a good spray finish as one the quickest and "best" available. After seeing the quality of finish achieved by local woodworkers I invested big $$$$'s in setting up a spray booth & top of the line Iwata 200 gun with pressure pot with in-line regulator, filter, water catch, etc. So you'd think after all this I'd be doing great spray jobs. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it don't.

After fiddling with all the gun settings and air pressure, I still often get an orange peel effect. And the gun seems to spray "droplets" rather than a nice fine mist. I've upped the air and reduced the fluid, but I still get fine droplets. If I "drown" the surface (lacquer) it eventually flows together and I can get a reasonable finish. But I'm sure this isn't right.

I'm about to head into town with a couple of cartons of beer, go to the local car repair spray painter and beg for a couple of hours of hands-on training.

Richard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richardwoodhead

MajorPanic, Shane, Echidna, Violincrafter, anybody..... Feedback appreciated...

I rate a good spray finish as one the quickest and "best" available. After seeing the quality of finish achieved by local woodworkers I invested big $$$$'s in setting up a spray booth & top of the line Iwata 200 gun with pressure pot with in-line regulator, filter, water catch, etc. So you'd think after all this I'd be doing great spray jobs. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it don't.

After fiddling with all the gun settings and air pressure, I still often get an orange peel effect. And the gun seems to spray "droplets" rather than a nice fine mist. I've upped the air and reduced the fluid, but I still get fine droplets. If I "drown" the surface (lacquer) it eventually flows together and I can get a reasonable finish. But I'm sure this isn't right.

I'm about to head into town with a couple of cartons of beer, go to the local car repair spray painter and beg for a couple of hours of hands-on training.

Richard

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Hey Richard,

Forget the local car repairer, find yourself a french polisher or a furniture restorer. If he dosen't spray finish he WILL know somebody who does.

Ive got some scanned images of pages from a 103 page book entitled the complete refinisher third edition Dulux Australia.

It outlines step by step possible cures and remedies for most common problems associated with spray painting. Its good and handy for any spray painter.

If orange peel is a problem then here is the associated pages. Splattering from the gun indicates a damaged needle or packing piece or some times incorrect easing of by the operator at the gun. This is only true if its on the trigger release not consistently. You should shoot past the panel before opening or releasing the trigger and then continue with overlapping the next stroke of paint. This is sometimes due to a sudden shutoff at the needle when vacuum and pressure is suddenly halted and the nozzle mist is reverted back to large droplets that have no where to go but condense into immediate splatter. Sort of like turning of the air ABRUPTLY and the paint becomes liquid splatter (unatomised state of momentary starvation, zero pressure zero vacuum result large unassisted zero atomized paint!!!!). :cool:



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ho/airhorn.jpg





If it splatters throughout the job then you have a partially clogged nozzle or damaged or bent needle or even corroded microscopically mating surfaces between needle and air horn mismatch. There is also the simplest explanation that dirt or incorrect viscosity is the problem.

If the gun is started well before the job then splatter would be not a problem on the work but a good clean gun wont do this!!!(and or correct technique) :D Nor should the job continue until rectifying the fault. :cool: :cool:

Release and start the trigger gradually and vacuum and air pressure will syphon the paint SMMMMMOOOOOOTHLY without sharp vacuum drop or abruptly starving the paint on final shutdown and unatomized paint as a splatter of poor technique.

Heres the pics of some usefull info from the Complete refinisher:-

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...sho/orange.jpg



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ho/orange1.jpg



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ho/orange2.jpg


cheers

Hi Violincrafter
Do you remember where you got the book from? It looks very good. Might be a hnady reference to keep.
Ash

Ashley I got that from Dulux Australia and it dates back to Feb 1979!! I have given them a call recently to see if they have a new update version but the tech guy said they dont print it anymore. However dulux has changed there name I think which a auto paint shop can advise on.

I have a number for victoria 132424 which was given to me. You could try but as I said they dont print it any more.

However there is some good news however!

Heres the index:- a scanned image

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...dulonindex.jpg

Have a look at it and I could try and post some of it for reference only!

I cant do all of it because the FILE size!

And the time to scan it! lol

But some of it I can do!

cheers :)

Oh before I forget this ones for Mr Major:-

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...nsho/major.gif

violincrafter, thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated.

Major, I managed to line up the finisher / polisher from one of the local furniture galleries to come around and provide some hands-on lessons when I'm ready for my next spray job. Hopefully this will help. Just by talking on the phone, it sounds like my air setting at the gun was too low..

Richard

Pages 92 & 93 would be great if possible. Thanks in advance
Ash

Im working on a PDF file and so far 6 pages LOL. The file is 541 kbs!!!!
I dont know of how I could post it considering that file size is to big for most and not sure how to post it at photobucket. Its max is 250 kb's.

Wow what a lot of fiddling to get pages scanned! lol :( :( :confused: :confused: :( :( :)

Dead set, you bloks are hopeless!!!

What does Dulux have to do with spraying Lacquer??

Paint & lacquer are totally different in spraying techniques!

You have an Professional you can ask any time you need an answer.

Shane Watson is a qualified professional in the finishing field!! He is only too happy to help.

If ya want a troubleshooting guide HERE is one I did up from a book called "Spray Finishing" by Andy Charron - Taunton Press.

Thanks Mr Major,
Good PDF reference! Saves some time on scanning the same stuff!

Is that from your WEB SITE?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MajorPanic

Dead set, you bloks are hopeless!!!

What does Dulux have to do with spraying Lacquer??

Paint & lacquer are totally different in spraying techniques!

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There are little differences not too much IMHO, but get those little differences wrong and it'll kill the finish.(automotive and wood)
Its all paint.
Also depends on what you define which is paint and which is lacquer, cars used to be sprayed with lacquer in the old days or in the backyard... its only since the lazy mans advent of 2pac that things have changed.
If your talking enamel yeah its way different and a dam sight harder to get a nice finish although to spray poly nice its treated the same, Ive always thought that if you can master enamel can do any spray finish.
Automotive acyrlic and what I know of lac have the same techinque to spray... except one has solids in it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Violindude

This is sometimes due to a sudden shutoff at the needle when vacuum and pressure is suddenly halted and the nozzle mist is reverted back to large droplets that have no where to go but condense into immediate splatter

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Sorry if Im stating the obivous but,
That can be avoided very easily, its called a 2 stage trigger which every gun I've ever handled has. Air flow should not stop from start to finish of the whole spray job, if it does your letting the trigger go to far shut or you've over adjusted/jammed the needle open.

I also noticed a comment about a good spray painter can get a good finish with any gun... betcha I got a gun that no-one can get a nice finish with!

Harry your absolutely right! There are some spray guns that are really good for only fence painting! But I think some other guns have come a long way and at the end of the day are clones of others. :D

As with the 2 stage its correct but I tried to figure out how a gun could splatter? Mine dont but if it did , then i would try some theory on that problem. As i mentioned all good spray techniques is to be sort of gentle and start the trigger,,,,before the job and release it slowly after passing the target panel. 40 -45 psi on a suction gun is a fairly steady stream of paint dissipation and if the trigger is released abruptly it will force the needle to push a small quantity of paint via the nozzle out by centrifical pressure and the air horn has collapsed the vacuum of which its delivered.

My guns dont do that, but maybe a gun with 2.0 mm for lac may be more pronounced.

Oh well I guess my guns are good because so far TOUCH WOOD they work fine without a problem but when the needle may wear out and the jet then thats a different story. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Harry72

There are little differences not too much IMHO, but get those little differences wrong and it'll kill the finish.(automotive and wood)
Its all paint.

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??

Violincrafter
If you want you could send it to me as a pm. I think this will get around the problem??

If not I can pm you with my email address and you could send it there.

Regards

Ash

Hi Woodies,
Sorry on my behalf, I did go a little off stray by talking of an auto paint situation problem. My inference was simply to show that the equipment used sometimes means very little if the preparation or technique is not performed well. many problems associated with timber finishes are also applicable to auto faults, eg RUNS SAG Blooming, Humidity blistering, solvent pop, crazing, cracking,,,,,sounds familiar? yes they happen with both mediums but AUTO Finishing makes or breaks any spray painter and if you can master this,,,,then timber is simpler but a different approach as any one can understand. Try finishing a car to a mirror reflective showroom shine!!! For me timber is well below the knowledge of auto finishing and you probably WILL dispute this but thats because that person doesnt know the difficulty and expertise of an auto REFINISHER!

I understand the difference between auto finishing and timber finishing. But as we are well aware any small minute fault in auto paint can show up 1000 times as much as timber finish. A spray painter has to be very good when finishing a car as it is a fairly high investment and timber finish is a little more forgiving.

My inference is to reinforce that whats the use of having state of the art equipment if the preliminary preparation is lacking. There is a little bit more involved with preparing and finishing a car for showroom condition than is a furniture piece. Still timber is very nice but is easier to apply paint and years ago brushing was very well accepted. A car would look appauling if brushed using high gloss finishes. :)

so what your saying is an auto refinisher is better than a furniture refinisher? Couldn't disagree more, and I've sprayed both (auto & furniture) including off the gun

Quote:

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mirror reflective showroom shine!!!

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Several state and national awards for best kitchen & bathroom finish is kinda testiment, all off the gun full gloss piano finish.

And whats the difference between

Quote:

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wood finishing

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&

Quote:

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timber finishing

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? last time I looked wood was timber, but lumber well thats different ;)

Cars are more challenging in my opinion!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MajorPanic

??

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The basic differences between the actual spraying of wood and cars with the same type of paint... metal doesnt soak up paint and wood can bleed/taint into the finish, the shape of a car is harder to keep the gun parallel to the surface(unless its unusualy shaped furinture), wooden items tend to have more sharp internal corners... list goes on and on and on!
Gun settings differnces, not any IMHO
The main differences are in the prep job before spraying, I've found acrylic paints for wood tend to fill better than car acrylic so the prep sanding needs to be way better on a car... theres no grain on a car to hide, not saying you cant do fine prep job on wood tho!
(this is why they invented automotive 2pac's as they fill better, less sanding to prep and finish/polish)
I prefer to spray enamel or poly, much less arm work sanding... but easier to get wrong in the gun techinque.

The worst difference is in the hip pocket, get car paint badly wrong and its a monumental job to fix labour wise not to mention the price of most car paints.(PPG or HOC is hellishly expensive stuff to mess up... $1k+ per ltr)

And whats the difference between
Quote:
wood finishing
&
Quote:
timber finishing

Wood is round on the outside and covered with bark.
Timber is the inside of the wood with (generally) square corners
UNLESS
The timber has been made round again in a lathe when it is still timber.

Lumber is when you bean some twit with a lump of timber. (Wood will do in an emergency) :D :D :D :D

Sorry WOODIES! I shouldnt of brought the auto painting issue into the forum. This is for wood lovers! I apologize if I offended anyone especially Mr Shane Watson!

He loves his wood as we all do! Right ON Boss!

Oh and before we misunderstand Mr Watsons statement on wood and timbre that was my fault! I wasnt sure what he meant but after reading my post I MADE A TYPO ERROR! Since his post I edited it because I was typing so fast I made an error in the initial post! SORRY!

Damn never make a good word processor lol !! :mad:

Lets forget about cars and lets get back to our love of timbre!

It's very nice stuff that timbre!

I like mirror shine kitchens too and my WIFE wow she would really love a kitchen like that!

Sorry Woodies! I really have to get some sheoak timbre its got good grain! Incidently I saw a book today and gee it looks like European Plane tree that has a similar grain. Thats nice aint it!!!

Have fun!!!! Woodies and borers lol..
I know I am! :D :D :D :D

Don't apologise for having an opinion! Hell I have often referred to auto refinishing over the years in these forums. I think the two have a close affiliation and each trade can learn off each other! Its certainly helped me ;)

Oh, and you never offended me, I just have a different view and experiences :eek:

I knew your statment about wood and timber was a mistake, hence my reply was tounge in check ;)

Cheers,

oh & for the record, it was not me that closed this thread. :eek: ;) :D :p

Any furniture finisher worth his salts could finish a car better than most auto finisher, most auto finishers couldn't get a decent finish on a piece of furniture if their life depended on it. There are exceptions to the rule, but not many.

I didn't close it either. :D Musta bin the woodturner, who I would back against any auto spray painter any day in a finishing competition.