Skills shortage - Mick's solution

Mick,

There are alternatives to just knocking things down again! One suggestion is Habitat for Humanity to consider. This organisation assists folks on a lower income to become independent home owners.

This is an interesting thread. I'm a computer boffin myself and have been for twenty years. This industry used to run on a de facto apprenticeship system. People like me were taken on because universities were not able to churn out graduates out fast enough. This doesn't happen anymore.

Entry level jobs are now almost exclusively occupied by Computer Science or Information Technology graduates. I personally don't have a problem with that. The young adults that come out of university now are far better prepared than I was educationally but are no better prepared emotionally, on average, than 22 and 23 year olds were 20 years ago. No surprise there.

I am concerned about their middle-career prospects though. They will face increasing competition for the work they can do by overseas contractors. The problem for us as a country and managers of organisations is where the next level of professionals are going to come from in 20 years if the careers of these people has no middle level progression?

The way things are going my kids, as you said (or someone said anyway), might be better off (I'm talking about from a purely financial point of view) being carpenters or another skilled trade. I have seen this in other professions. The profession we all love, lawyers (cough) are going through turmoil as well. My nephew graduated from Macquarie University. He's a fully trained solicitor and has gone to England because he can't get a job here. I doubt he will return.

Rambling on a bit, I know but I'm still feeling a little raw myself with the "life changing" career experiences of the last 12 months...

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The young adults that come out of university now are far better prepared than I was educationally

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Which university is that? We take industrial year students from UTS in Sydney ocassionally and they know SFA about the job. They know how to expand a 100 word answer to 1000 words and how to swat for exams at the last minute ;)

I'm being slightly facetious but the point is that, although they have 4 years of university education under their belt, they don't really learn anything until they get on the tools so to speak. I suppose that reinforces Mick's point. You can teach them how to swing a hammer but if they don't know what they're supposed to be hitting and why, then it's sod all use to them.

I like the idea of building houses as part of some training scheme though. Sounds win-win to me. As long as they are supervised by someone who knows what they are doing (maybe an opening for you there, Mick) and not left to their own devices like a lot of university last year projects, it would probably be a goer. They could draw labourers from the unemployed queue.

I've often thought that a prerequisite for going to Uni should be that you have to work for a year first. Those that did then go to Uni would be a bit more mature, some would have a better idea of what they want to do, and others would decide that they liked the type of work they were doing and didn't want to go to uni at present.

Also, some people are better off going to Uni later. I know one licensed plumber who went and did Mech. Eng. - he commands a better salary than other engineers because of the things he can sign off that they can't.

I did my uni in the late 90's after I'd been in the biz for 6 years. When I got into IT in '89 it was the same story as Mark. I rang up an ad in the paper one day for a computer course. I was a labourer but had heard what sort of money these 'puter people could earn. They got me in to do an aptitude test and then offered me a spot BUT they wanted $6,000 off me. Yeah right.

So I rang one of the major banks and asked them if doing the course would help me get a job with them. They said not in particular, since they do their own in-house training. At that point, they pretty much only recruited IT staff from the branches and head office. However it was around the time of a certain major project by one of the other banks and they were losing IT staff left right and centre, so they were hiring off the street. You couldn't get more off the street than me. I did their aptitude test and then they put me in an operational area for 12 months, then on to programmer training.

When I went on to uni 1996, I got a couple of subject credits for industry experience. I ended up graduating with distinction because I actually did the work and whipped the asres of the full-time students (you have to love standardised scores).

If I had gone on to uni after high school, I doubt I would have stuck at it and I don't know what I would have done anyway.

This is just a long-winded way of saying that sometimes you get more out of these things when you are older or more mature. I think they should encourage older people to go back to school because by they are more likely to stick at it and do well. How many people have you met who did one thing at uni and ended up in a different occupation altogether?

I've often thought I'd like to be a sparky. If I had to pick a trade, it would probably be that. But how would an old fart like me get into it at this late stage?

Oy Silent, enough of that "Old Fart" stuff OK ;) 1965 was NOT that long ago.

Apparently life begins for us '65ers this year, I'm looking forward to it :D

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Originally Posted by silentC

Apparently life begins for us '65ers this year, I'm looking forward to it :D

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Nah, go mad now and avoid the rush :D

Richard

I've really enjoyed reading this thread.
Journeyman Mick said, back at the beginning of this thread,
"a smart asred, know it all teenager with no skills and no job and teach them all that I know (or at least all they're willing to learn) "

How about a female, willing to shut up, listen and learn or re-learn the better way to do wood cabinetry, with 3 years wood experience, 90% self-taught....

You know, I'd very happily give up my computer job, become an apprentice, soak up the wood knowledge and experience and get into it. However, who would take me on as an apprentice and pay me enough to live on. I think it's this that is the stumbling block, but that's my humble opinion. If I could earn enough and get enough work in, I'd even consider setting up my own business, but then it wouldn't be my passion anymore.

I have three degrees, started the fourth last year but gave it away as it took way too much time and money away from my wood work and family. My husband has no degrees and yes, earns more than I do.

Having a year off to work between Grade 12 and Uni is, IMHO, nearly essential. As I work at a uni, it's been interesting to see which students appreciate the opportunity to study and the hard work needed, and which students just want to hang out and party. The students who study after a break from High School always seem to get more out of the their study than those fresh from High School.

Just my 1 Cent.

cheers
RufflyRustic

Noticed some of you mentioned the dole bludgers don't want to work.
Some dole bludgers do have a story to tell,

I think in my very own case it was depressing catch22, back in the late 80's early 90's in the the aftermath of the "recession that we had to have".

Back then after leaving school in 86 I tried very hard to get a apprenticeship, I did course after course but it didn't make any change because all the course's that actually could help you get a apprenticeship cost money that I didn't have.

Living in a smaller town didn't help, I could have moved to the city... but in those days I could not have survived in the big city the dole paid barely enough to live on... and having no relatives there didn't help, you got to think its pretty hard for a 16yr old to live by him/herself in a place you were not brought up in.

At school I got very good marks in all subjects, wanted to go to uni and become a architect I had all the credentials good math and excelled in art and tech studies.
The problem was money there was no way I could afford it, my parents could not afford to send me and there was no part time jobs around that I could work at that time, because they were all taken up by the people who had been laid off from their fulltime jobs(recession).
At this time Austudy was just starting... they said my parents earnt to much for me to qualify even though my fathers wage from the EWS was barely above the poverty line!

Well I ended up in the city, still couldn't get a real job I was there for 12mths and scored a job at jeans factory, but I couldn't work there because the acid washing in clorine process they used gave me bad dermitis(and I still am suffering because of it), then I had job at a lighting factory(crazy daves)putting light fittings together.
They decided that they wouldn't pay me and a friend of mine, so once again I was on my ass and had to shift back with my parents because of the BS that the CES and SS put you through If you left a job... even if the employer didn't pay you!

I got so depressed in those days from all the knock backs and dead ends I just gave up... ended up a long term unemployed nohoper as the saying goes.

So when you say someone is a dole bludger think why are they like that, there may well be a reason why.

I ended up getting a job by chance only, in 94 I decided that the only way I could get a potential employer to even look at me was to reenter the schooling system. I went back to school at the age of 22 and redid yr12 as a mature age student, my grade scores were some of the highest in the state.
But once again I had real money trouble thanks to austudy they expected me to live on $38per fortnight that's real good money considering I was a full time student and living on my own.
Managed to last 2 terms, only because I sold nearly everything I owned to do it. At my tethers end I was ready to give up again, then a bloke at the CES found out that the government was forcing large business's to employ a certain amount of long termers like me. He got on to the local smelter and got me on the list, I did their BS accer tests and passed with ease.
Three months went past didn't hear anything, so I shifted back to the city again within two days of being there I received a call from my mother "you were supposed to start work yesterday!" It turns out some paper shuffler forgot to notify me that I had been accepted in...
I'm still there in the same job, quite happy earning a reasonable living... long service is due now.
I'm still the only long-term unemployed person that they have ever employed, instead they usually take in tradey's of at least 25yrs of age(proved long-term workers)because they need reliable people that will stick there for the rest of their working life's.

The cost of training in my job is phenomenal, because of the OH&S rules when molten metal is concerned a trainee must be supervised at all times, so to train someone they first pay the trainee and then the trainer and then a overtimer to cover the position of the trainer, so to train one it cost about 4 wages(OT is all DT and the average wage is $55k+)plus then they have to get all the licences like crane/rigging/forklift etc etc, too be fully trained and fully effective at the job takes upto 2 yrs and 3 hundred thousand $$$ they estimate.
The big problem they have is they cant just grab a employee from anywhere as we are the only lead smelter in Australia, there nowhere else you can get the training required for this job.

The funny thing is all the blokes(all tradeys) that started at the same time as me have left them high and dry mostly because they didn't like the conditions and couldn't handle the shift work...

Harry72, gotta give you KUDOS mate! Good on you for sticking it out and winning through.

Cheers
RufflyRustic

Interesting thread, this one.

Personally, I still think a lot of the problem lies with the actual kids themselves that we put on as apprentices, or juniors, or trainees, call 'em what you will.

They simply aren't that keen on work! Many are unfit, out of condition and the mere thought of a hard days work sees them exhausted before they have even started.

There are many, many spoilt teenagers out there who have had it handed to them on a plate and so therefore have no work ethic to speak of. Lets face it, kids today have so much stuff just given to them by their well to do parents that the urge to work is completly smoothered.

Even have a look inside houses within the so called poverty belt, people at the low end of the financial spectrum and you will find two or three televisions, a computer, X box, PS2, a gazzilion DVD's, possibly a cable TV hook up, a mobile phone or two. The list goes on and these are the so called poorer folk.

As we step up in class we find the same toys, just maybe newer or in better nick, but the same stuff nonetheless.

The point I'm driving at here is why do they need to go and work their butts off, particularly doing manual work in a trade, when they can stay home play with the provided toys, smoke some dope, and drink some beer? I know what I'd rather do given the choice. So I can't blame them on that score.

It's not until they hit their twenties (or later) that the need to earn a living kicks in and they begin to become responsible enough to turn up for work each day and actually put in a decent days toil.

I've hired my fair share of young blokes over the past twelve or so years, and seriously, they are just not worth the hassle, they start of in a blaze of glory doing 'mans work' and a fortnight later there've had a gut full. Next comes the late starts, the days off, the problems with the current squeeze and then the worst part is they don't give a rat's clacker bag about the quality of the work we 'older' tradies are trying to produce.

And, worse still is the mistakes they make, which are often only made through sheer laziness and complete lack of care. These mistakes can and do cost the business owner money, time, or worst of all his reputation. Is it worth the risk, the hassle? I can tell you, I'm over it.

Now, on the plus side, it can be such a rewarding feeling to train someone to do what you do, to teach them skills that can carry your trade into the next era, to help someone out with their financial questions and answer some of their questions about life from an older blokes perspective and experience.
As you might gather from this, I have had some success with a youngster and this kid was brilliant. He learn't fast, he was switched on, he was on time everytime and he had an eye for detail. Unfortunately, he also had an eye for this hot, little, blonde, piece from America. He now lives with her and her family in Boulder, Colorado and is getting married in September. Damn it.

So, the answer is. Somehow we teach our next generation the value of good, honest work from the age of sixteen. Or, we begin apprenticeships from age twenty five, just when they might be getting their stuff together.

Until then I'll stick with the older guys who I can get a decent days work out of.

After reading my first post and being surprised at the height of my rant.....Castlemaine Brewery and his dozen little friends have a lot to answer for:o .
Seriously tho, When i said force i should have said, encourage, and it seems to me that there is no accountability anymore.No one is prepared to give a stuff because in a lot of cases they simply dont have to.
Case in point: I employed a guy (30 years old) last week,great references and a really strong work ethic(according to his current employer).
He said he really needed extra work as his other part time job wasnt enough, so i put him on.
He worked Monday and Tuesday last week and that is the last time i have seen him, apparently (according to his mother) the work wasnt for him.....he was working 3 hours a day:eek: . Ok i realise that you have got to like what you are doing, but what gives me the S**TS is that i didnt even get a phone call to say that he wasnt interested.....i doubt that Centrelink will call either.
It took 2 hours of inductions just so he could get on site and about all he did was make me and my business look stupid in front of my clients:mad: .
From now on im gonna stick with people my age and older......the younger ones arent worth the hassles.

Just because 1 or 2 lazy people dont want to earn money because it involves some self sacrifice, dont label all like that.
As that was one of the reasons I had so much trouble in my younger years, because no one would give me a go in the 1st place. I couldnt get a trade type job because they wanted previous expirence, how can you get it without them giving you a go in the 1st place.
They had so many people to choose from back then, it took a uni degree to get a job at Macca's.

I think when employing the younger generation, that if you stick by them for a few years and put up with the crap... you'll end up with a good worker as respect is earnt over time not in a instant.

This is what I think could help,
High school students should under go a test of some sort to find out,
1. what skills they are best at learning
2. what mentality they have, as in physical, social, civil(no point training a non phyisical person to do say a brickys job...)
3. what the actual student wants to do... put them through 3 or 4 weeks of each trade they choose on the job, so as to make sure thats what they want to do.

Once they asitain what skills/job suit they should be trained towards these trades, ie if the student is good with social/academic skills and doesnt like physical they could be trained in management, polictical or IT even. The next student has good hands on/techinical skills doesnt mind physical but doesnt have very good social/academic skills they could be the bricky , mechanic or even a architect if they have the mental capability.

Once at the end of the high schooling years students should be retested and given several options/job types that they can follow...
Once they decide,
Trade apprentices/ scholarships should not be trained by private/corprate buisness, they should be trained in proper establisments by the government... then buisnesses should pay a 1 time fee to obtain the new fully "trained to a set spec" employee.

Maglite
What your saying is the very reason my place of work(600+ non-staff employees) will not employ process operators under the age of 28, apprentices start at 16 tho... their cheaper to train and can be replaced easily!

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Originally Posted by Daddles

becoming a compassionate society

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Sorry to be picky but isn't it spelt compa$$ionate?http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ons/icon10.gif
Mick

One area where a few trades people have gone apparently to the dole office is. Guys paying child support and being driven into the ground.
I was listening to parliament the other day when a poly said that something like 70% of all working class men who were paying child support are now on the dole.
That has to be a huge number and i'm guessing an awful lot are trades men wanting to work but can't becuase of the way the system works. It makes you wonder how the Gov. can bring in trades people from overseas at a cheaper rate than wanting to solve this problem of getting more back into the work force. Surely they can't all not want to work
Sinjin

I enjoy reading the board and probably don't write enough, but this thread has got me thinking. In other parts fo the board we hear something like "the government should keep out of.....(insert the topic of conversation)"

Here we say the government should be responsibility for training apprentices, it's not the job of tradespeople. There's a logical disconnect.

Who gave most of you tradies the training you needed, some bloke with a business to run and a desire to pass the skills on to the next generation. Sure some were trained by bigger industries that had carpenters shops, fitters shops etc. Those days are gone. Most of that work is sub contracted out. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it's life in 2005.

In the past there were still a lot of blokes who took on apprentices outside of those larger companies. Where are they now?

Then there is the arguement that the average tradies can't afford to train an apprentice because it's too costly (i.e he won't make enough money in the year) but then a larger company that makes a decision not to train apprenticed, based on profit (i.e they won't make enough money in the year) they are railed against. Again, I can't see the logic.

I think there are many reasons for employing apprentices and trainees, none of them have short term economic impact but they are essential for the long term health of a business. In every company I have worked with over the past few years I have encouraged interaction with the universities to help new students get a break and some useful experience. (don't go all tradesman elitist on me here. In most fields a uni degree is just a higher level trade course - maybe not a trade using hand tools but a trade none the less)

Then we have the arguement that kids these days aren't much chop.

Let me ask you all out there this question "how good were you when you started?" How many times did the boss give you a clip around the ear? How many times did you turn up for work after a hard weekend celebrating and still feeling a little seedy? I don't think things have changed too much. In my case I would say that I made a few silly mistakes, but my bosses were tolerant enough to cut me a little slack and give me guidance.

Over the past few 10 -15 years I've been privelaged to train some students, help a few of them get work experience, summer jobs, worked supervising honours theses, etc. Some are good some are lazy (I gave my mates son summer work once - never again!). But in most cases the kids want to learn and even those with bad attitudes can be helped to learn - it just takes a little more effort.

I have 3 of my own. 2 at Uni and one still in school. Do they like work - not particularly. Will they work hard? I hope so. All I hope is that somebody out there will give them an opportunity and be as patient with them as I hope they will be with the next generation.

So let's not blame others for the lack of the next generation in our particular area of skill. Let's see what we can do to promote our trade and encourage others to pusrsue it. Then do something pro-active about training others.

I'm looking for a carpentry apprenticeship, eager to work and willing to learn.
I'm at TAFE doing a prevoc woodtrades course. In a fewweeks when I've finished the course I will have completed the first 6 of 18 weeks of trade school for the first year of my apprenticeship (be it Caprentry, Joinery or cabinetmaking) .. which I've paid for myself.
I've got a green card ticket done restricted height scaffolding, and done some onsite work building veranda's.
I can't get the dole so your solution doesn't help me out, Mick.
Still I have a better idea of how the employer feels about taking on apprentices.
How do they feel about taking on female apprentices???

Lash,
I wouldn't have a problem with the apprentice's gender, but it's a very male dominated industry and there's probably plenty out there who wouldn't dream of taking on a female apprentice. When I was working at the boatbuilding yard I pushed the foreman to take on a female boilermaker apprentice. She was keen and energetic and her work put a lot of others to shame, it amde a lot of the blokes pick up their game.

One issue is strength, there's no two ways about it, the male body is inherently stronger than a females on a kilo for kilo of muscle basis. Working as a cabinet maker or joiner this won't be too much of an issue but carpentry work (framing) is really hard on the body. I'm only 1680 high and about 80kg and I often struggled. Dragging green hardwood battens up onto a roof for a few hours in the tropical heat is a killer. I've got a worn out shoulder, dodgy lower back and recurrent tendon problems in both my forearms and I'm only 43.

Having said that though, from what I've seen I reckon that a carpentry apprenticeship will give you a broader base than cabinetmaking or joinery apprenticeship, giving you more options to pursue. This is only based on the people I've dealt with and quality of skills and knowledge that they have ended up with. All the best with your search for employment.

Mick

Sorry. Maybe I am part of the problem here, as I am no longer in Oz doing my part. Was a sparky before I left.

Then again, for 40 hours a week there, I would take home maybe $700.

20 hours a week here, and take home a little bit more. Hourly rate is only a little bit higher here and that much cash has the same buying power here as it does there for day to day living.

So in effect, nothing has really changed money wise for me.

If you suspect that I think there is something drastically wrong with the tax system, you might be right. ;)

Hi Lash

Go for it - find all the shops and builders in your area and go see them. If you really want to become an apprentice, then don't let people stop you from realising your dream. Talk with the groups that arrange apprenticeships and see what they can do for you.

Mick's made some sound comments - I'm sure others here would be able to provide some hints and tips for getting an apprenticeship.

Please let us know how it goes.

Cheers
RufflyRustic - Wendy

Mining boom - Teens Paid Up To $90,000

By 7News

A shortage of skilled workers in the mining industry is delivering young workers some very big pay packets. Months after enrolling in a TAFE course, teenagers are joining the boom times on $90,000 per year. Warwick Palm, 19, did a course that assured him a job in an industry that was going to need another 70,000 recruits over the next decade. "It's a cheap course, it's only $700 for the 20-week course and yeah, you're finished in no time, out into the industry and making the big bucks," Mr Palm said.

Between $60,000-$90,000 year has been guaranteed to graduates who complete a 20-week drilling course at Central TAFE in Perth. "We can't actually push enough graduates through the programme to meet demand," Perth Central TAFE's Kevin Chennell said. They come out as qualified drilling offsiders: tough work, usually a long way from any town, operating million dollar equipment. "They drill holes down to 1500m depth, so if you're running a drill pipe down that far and you're trying to hit a target, you've really got to know what you're doing," Graeme Wallis of Wallis Drilling said. The mining skills shortage is now spread across four states, including New South Wales and beyond.

Workers are also needed in Mozambique and Brazil. But the work is not just for drillers: the mining industry needs electricians, mechanics, engineers, construction workers and lots of others. "It opens up a whole stack of frontiers to anybody that's enthusiastic and energetic and prepared to have a go," Minerals Council of Australia spokesman Mitch Hooke said.

I love skills shortages.

Bring on the skills shortage.

Where's the skills shortage?

Is there a skills shortage?


At present I feel there is no real skills shortage for people in the woodworking trades and especially in the marine joinery/cabinetmaking or shipwrighting sector.
Since November 2006 I've had a least five people ask me for work.

I'd love to put on an apprentice, unfortunately work just isn't constant and the large wooden boat restoration and contruction jobs I have done in the past just aren't there anymore. Although I recieve many requests for projects to be carried out, I ROTFLMAO at some of the budgets I'm expected to work to. Just a waste of time tendering for the work.

Unfortunately I couldn't keep the chippy I had working for me as I saw 12 months work lined up come down like a pack of dominos in the weeks leading up to Easter. This isn't good.
Pollies need to be very careful when they say things like "The Australian worker has never had it so good".
I think if the 'resources boom' veil were lifted we wouldn't be looking so great. Although we're floggin off real estate, slapping up boxes and throwing credit around like chook food, I feel that the hype about skills shortages for most trades is exactly that. An excuse to free up the movement of labour from overseas.
Why send the factories overseas when it's cheaper to bring the cheaper labour here? Only gotta look at the rorts on the news reguarding the numbers of visa workers being ripped off, paid lower wages and charged excessive fees for living expenses etc.


Anyhow as a previous poster stated its the nature of doing business now, profit above all else , in our brave new world of consumerism.
The people at the bottom of the business pyramid find it harder to make a dollar and the woodbutchery trades are pretty much ground level.
I can't believe that in the year 2007 there's still cabinetmakers working for $15 an hour or less. That used to be a highly reguarded and skilled trade.
My trade as a shipwright is completely dead and is slowly resurecting itself as a cottage industry. When I started my time in the 80s there were 50 first year shipwrights at Ultimo TAFE, in just three years there were 5 first year apprentices. This was during the "recession we had to have".

I feel the (boatbuilding/repair) industry hasn't really recovered from that period onward. There's been a few booms here and there but nothing like it was. At this time the nature of employment in my trade changed drastically. Full time employment was no longer offered and working conditions consisted of either casual or sub contract labour due to the feast or famine nature of business.
It is easier and in most parts cheaper to employ sub contractors than casual staff.
There is a $7k grant now (in Qld) to put on an apprentice. Also, I think most trades now have pre apprenticeship TAFE courses, whereby a prospective apprentice completes the required course for their choosen trade prior to employment out in the field. This is a great for employer and apprentice IMO as you have people with 'some' experience entering the work environment instead of a 'babe in the wood'. But. At the thick end of the iceberg, the work has to be there, interesting work, not just the dregs.

wew! I'm having a coffee...anyone want one?

boatchippie,

Far be it for me to hose down the romantic ideal that people can actually make money working on old boats, but let's face it, it's a "calling" not a trade.

There is very little work for farriers, wheelwrights, coopers, or stenographers any more. I imagine a 45 year old stenographer would be just about unemployable.

Australia just doesn't have the combination of maritime history, quality craft, and wealthy nutcases that is needed to support a large boat building community, but it does have mines, houses, factories and the spinoff from all those things, one of which is the creation of wealthy nutcases who may just fall in love with an old wooden boat one day.

Try employing an electrician in Bundaberg, or a roof plumber in Innisfail, or a cabinet maker in Gladstone. Then tell me about a shortage!

Cheers,

P (currently trying to become a wealthy nutcase, to keep all the wooden boat builders in Aus employed!
:D :D :D

Okay.
My 1st yr apprentice wage was $12.50 per week and the old man said bugger that a labourer gets more than thatand paid me $20.00

This has not changed so why would kid work their guts out for 2 yrs ore more to get an equal labouring or factory/unskilled job

I started as a superviser with a builder who said he had a gang of 8 carpenters. He didnt tell me 5 were apprentices one 1st yr 2 second yr 1 third & 1 fourth .

The job was 2nd fix polished oak so I told them tight joints on the ave mitres.

They complained the mitre saw was not cutting accurately. I checked it. It was ok so I told them to fit the mitres and was met with blank stares. With a plane I said.

This is the scary bit. Only one possessed a plane .None had a oil stone or any idea how to tune or even properly set one.

All they had been trained to use were power tools to maximise productivity.

One third yr even refused to use a hammer when the nail gun broke as it would be too slow. She actually couldn't skew nail by hand.

I spent the next 4 weeks trying to train them in the use of hand tools.

The upside is some of them took it on board and their interest in the work improved .

I am sure this is just one story of many.

A very interesting and robust discussion. Seems like misdirected policy by govt, but now I hear there is a call for HECS based funding for TAFE students! Sorry if I've missed the correct reasons for falling intake at uni level, but most of us here blame rising HECS debt on graduating as a major cause. How on earth is it going to increase TAFE numbers?!:o

Just a couple of observations about issues brought up here:
1/ I had a mate who did his apprenticeship in aircon as a mature age guy, heaps of work... they can't get enough workers and worked him senseless. So much work in fact they were very reluctant to send him for his block at TAFE. When he finally got there, he realised how much theory (ie. understanding of the systems he worked on) he was lacking. Basically he was employed as a lackey to fit as many units as possible.
2/ A well known local cabinetmaker/craftsman, who many of you will recognise through AWR, trained in Germany, and dare I say it, reaching the twilight of his career, refuses to take on an apprentice! I had a big chat with him regarding this, and he simply couldn't afford, as a one-man show, to employ someone he had to supervise...being non-productive. This gent has an enormous skill-base, learnt during a traditional apprenticeship and many years on the job, and it won't get passed down!:(

Cheers,

Hi....is this the "Who can submit the longest post" thread?:no:

HH.

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Originally Posted by rufflyrustic

However, who would take me on as an apprentice and pay me enough to live on. I think it's this that is the stumbling block,

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I think this is yours and Sc's dilemma, you're at a point in your life where the money required to support your standard living is more than you can earn doing something you enjoy. Come to think of it I think it's mine too.:U :doh:

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Originally Posted by rufflyrustic

I have three degrees, started the fourth last year but gave it away as it took way too much time and money....

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Cool I always thought that 3 was enough and two doesn't work without diana ross:roll:

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Originally Posted by rufflyrustic

Having a year off to work between Grade 12 and Uni is, IMHO, nearly essential. As I work at a uni, it's been interesting to see which students appreciate the opportunity to study and the hard work needed, and which students just want to hang out and party. The students who study after a break from High School always seem to get more out of the their study than those fresh from High School.

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I'd guess that's because the kids straight from school are prolly brain dead and sick of study...I know I was but unfortunately Uni wasn't an option for me as my parents couldn't afford to keep me for four more years and I didn't apply myself well enough to get a scholarship...not that any of those were available anyway.:U

HH.

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Originally Posted by HappyHammer

Hi....is this the "Who can submit the longest post" thread?:no:

HH.

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Dingo,

Quick get in here it's your Nirvana....:U

HH.

My history is probably much like Harrys only chuck it back a few years Im 50 left school system at 13 and have been on the dole exactly ZERO times over all that time... Ive worked at WHATEVER work was available shoveling shyte driving shearing mustering carpentry bricklaying prawn trawling whatever the hell job would take me I did... maybe I only last a few weeks at some of them... but back in the 70s and 80s work was plentifull and by that I meant as an unqualified untrained jack of all trades master of none there were 4 jobs to choose from at any time.

I also returned to the education system at 30 while the missus worked and a cousin babysat the then 4 kids... got my year 12 as a mature age thinking it would help get a better sort of job... it didnt... so a few years later I did a correspondence Uni course in counselling... great investment of saved scrounged begged and borrowed money ever... it took 3 years instead of 2 due to family financial needs but persistance payed off... a year later I was still doing voluntary work as a counsellor because no one would hire me unless I had experience so I volunteered... no living in that

I worked hard set up my own business based on the gratis system ergo pay if you can the rate is thus donate if you cant rate is thus... made a lot of tucker that way never had an issue with our cars or needed a thing done that wasnt done by clients... worked out well with Jo working 20 hours a week... that went okay for 8 years until the 8th kid came along... suddenly we realized things must change so we moved south to Perth where I worked for Mission Australia within their office working with long termed unemployed with major preclusions to employment... did that till I hit a minor wall and burnt the fuses in my head a bit then moved over to another agency as a career guidance officer trainer did that for a couple of years until the big burnout happened and I walked in the office door looked around knew what was coming walked into the bosses office and resigned... I had 3 months holiday well not a holiday a time of mind recovery I call it cause mostly I was unable to function due to my head space being frazzled by 12 years of listening to other peoples problems...

I took a chance and went to Kal on speck for work in the mines spent 6 weeks out there getting dribs and drabs a week here a day or two there... all the while seeing the finances crash through the floor... I was on the verge of going back to counselling again when I got the start at the underground mine... I was till that point I believe claustraphobic but I needed to work so I gave it a whirl and loved it... so we moved down here 2 years ago a month later we had the flood and lost 90% of what we owned... I then lost my job because I couldnt leave Jo and the kids in the situation we were in...

So for the first time at 48 I went in with my then 18 year old son to apply for the dole... the rate they quoted me to get the dole was $125 per week! My mortguage was more than that! I walked out without signing a thing... I think at the end when Jo worked it all out we would have been getting somewhere around 400 per week with her child endowment money included... thing was that we were at that time broke I mean flat out no cash anywhere broke with 6 kids still living at home...

So what would you have done? accepted the dole? or gone "get stuffed" and start hammering on doors?

Most doors I found were closed to me based on two bases... first my age at 48 I was too old!!! second was Id been a counsellor for 12 years and a truck driver in UNDERGROUND operations for 2 so all my other experience was over 14 years in history... so no relevent recent history... so for almost a month i was buggared all the while we were trying to throw out almost everything we owned fighting with the east coast based insurance company trying to live as a family in some sort of "normalisy" which wasnt possible since me and the young bloke were living in the back of the F100 here on the property and Jo and the nippers were at her mum and dads tiny 2 bed cottage built in 1930 and definantly not made to have 5 little kids and 1 adult living in it... normal? not bloody likely... but find work? again not likely... one of the other problems I had was that I had exactly 2 pairs of overals and some jocks and socks left to my name everything else was gone... so I was going from place to place without a resume in a pair of overalls and no workboots!! definantly not a good look but the best I could do... explain the situation? I NEVER got the chance! straight up "no theres nothin here mate"

So for nearly 3 months we struggled in a town we didnt know among people who didnt give a flying rats ass... (theres more to that but not for here)

Thing was eventually I got a job with Cats out at worsley supposedly a full time position did the induction signed the WPA not a choice matter dont sign it dont start that simple... did the 3 months starter period no worries at the end of which I was given an "addendment" to the WPA right at the busiest time of my workday and told "Sign this Shane" so I did... a month later I was out on my ass...

Luckily by then we had things pretty much sorted... so back to the underground as the same sort of door slamming things started happening as I looked for work in the Bunbury region

Okay so that didnt work cause my bod decided it had had enough and a series of medical issues a fair amount of hospital time later and Im looking down the barrel of being unemployed once the W/C is over in about a month

So at 50 its going to WITHOUT doubt become even harder for me to find work around here or within the mining industry.

That crap about the mining industry is just that crap... a startup no experience basic mine worker ie: conny worker truck driver drillers offsider will get 23 - 25 per hour after 3 years he will be hopefully if hes confident enough be able to demand maybe 30 an hour...good money? for sure for being away from home society kids mates girlfriends lovers and life for 2 - 5 weeks at a time... some can handle it some cant but if they go expecting to go straight up from a conny worker truck driver to a bogger operator jumbo operator or on the surface to an excavator operator driller FORGET IT!!... In the 3 years Ive been in the industry Ive not once seen ANY truck driver or conny worker being UPSKILLED to operate the more money paying machines!! NOT ONCE!! were talking about training onsite to operate the machines that pay upto and above 1000 a day to operate... They are NOT training anyone to fill these slots!... so aahhh theres going to be a "skill shortage" in the industry for skilled bogger jumbo excavator and drill operators isnt there? but theres a bunch of truck drivers conny workers ONSITE who would LOVE the opportunity to train to be just that but the companys dont even consider them... theyre truck drivers or conny workers brain dead dipsticks so not worth the effort so the hue an cry will go up "oooh poor buggar me Ive got a skill shortage"

Mining companies have the bigest bunch of bloody imbiciles in their training development sections of any industry bar none! so go for it go earn the big bucks as a truck driver but dont expect to get trained to make more money operating the other machines that drive a mine cause it aint going to happen! and forget about training to be a OH&S person onsite cause that DEFINATLY aint going to happen!... you'll be a dipstick truck driver conny worker and thats the end of it.

ahem... the above rant is from a "dipstick truck driver" in the mining industry :doh:

Id do just about anything NOT to have to return to the mining industry... to not have to leave Jo and the kids to be able to share their lives on a regular basis as a dad and husband... but I cant simply put Ive been unable AND BROTHER HAVE I LOOKED!!! unable to find anything that pays a LIVING wage around here... so I will be going back not with Byrnecut for sure and probably not with Barminco although id go back with them in a shot good company in my book but theres a lot of companies out there looking for "dipstick truck drivers" and it does pay a good living wage albeit at a huge cost to a family man with kids.

Okay why? well here I can earn 19 per hour as a truck driver working 10 hours a day 6 days a week with one day off a week... up there I can earn 30 (Im confident enough and been in it long enough now to demand and get it) an hour 12 hours a day 14 days straight with a week off... simple economics after a long period of illness and time off dictates that I must go to catch up... if I could find an employer around here willing to pay 25 per hour for me to work 12 hours a day on the same rotation I would jump at it!! Id gladly take a drop of 5 an hour to stay home with Jo and the kdis just to be here be a hubby be a dad and share their lives.

Oh and my younger brother is a ferrier and makes a shyteload at it!!... he tried a few years ago to get away from it got himself a job at the local prison as a guard but has been in demand as a ferrier and has now gone back to it... he spends more time FIXING botched jobs done by the trained "professional" ferriers throughout the state than doing new work... but has more work on as a ferrier than he ever had before... he hasnt found anyone with a vocation to be trained none of the family want to do it or are interested in horses enough and the only advertising hes done led to a bunch of no hopers walking in and walking out once they saw the work he did so he works on alone

And now Ive got to here I have no bloody idea what my initial intention was when I started typing this :roll: :doh:

Interesting thread by the way :2tsup:

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Originally Posted by HappyHammer

Dingo,

Quick get in here it's your Nirvana....:U

HH.

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That crystal ball is great.....

HH.

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Originally Posted by HappyHammer

That crystal ball is great.....

HH.

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:U :U Mate I was just warming up :o ... but a bit over halfway through I sorta realized that I had no idea what the thread was about anymore so I thought... mmmm maybe I bedda shut up for a bit to try an figure it out... I think I sorta wombled around a bit eh? :B

But give me a few and I'll arc up again!! oooh Ive got some great rants building up someone mentioned Centrelink? THERES ONE RIGHT THERE!! :~ man can this be a major rant!! easy as!!... someone mentioned that the doles easy? THERES ANOTHERY!!... someone mentioned only wanting to hire older people? THERES The third! man I could go all day in this thread!!! EASY!!:2tsup:

Surely you dont want me to prove it do you? :;

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Originally Posted by Wild Dingo

:U :U Mate I was just warming up :o ... but a bit over halfway through I sorta realized that I had no idea what the thread was about anymore

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hasnt stopped you before....:q:q:D:D

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Originally Posted by Gra

hasnt stopped you before....:q:q:D:D

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nah guess not eh? :shrug: :roll: :;