This looks like it is getting a bit heated, guys. Please keep things polite.
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This looks like it is getting a bit heated, guys. Please keep things polite.
The oil is heated here , not sure what is over there :D
I haven't used hot oil. Never claimed to. That is why I asked the questions I did. I want to know. Yes, I could do the testing myself, I expect it will take 4 to 6 months. You have at your disposal the opportunity to enlighten us all now. You've said you've done it with bowls and mentioned Treen. I don't see where you've mentioned what kind of use any of this has seen. Do you use them regularly or do they sit on a shelf? I don't know, thus I ask.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuka Jock
I have mention the results of the tests I've preformed. I'll admit I haven't gone into the details of the tests. But you haven't even mention any actual usage or testing you've done.
I have carried daily and used frequently knives I've made with the handles preserved with linseed oil. Thus my suggestion to reapply once a year, that is what I've experienced.
The definition of stabilization I provided is not my own. It is what I've seen on the websites of sellers of professionally stabilized wood. It is what the knife makers and pen makers I've talked to expect from stabilized wood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuka Jock
What definition would you prefer?
What support do you have? All you've said is you've dunked bowls in hot linseed oil and that is works for Treen. What kind of use have these bowls seen? Do they get used? Have you washed them in hot, soapy water? Have they been through a dishwasher?
As for what I've offered, look back at my first post. I stated on the knives I've made the handles were finished with either linseed oil or linseed oil and wax mixed together. I've put forth the information I have on stabilized wood. I've mentioned some wood needs no finish, though I don't know what is local to Australia, I mentioned a couple that I do know of. Is that not enough information of value?
I'm just trying to understand if what you are doing is actually better than what I'm doing. If so then I will change my ways. But you won't answer my questions. You haven't said you haven't tested your process to know if it is better. You haven't even qualified how you've used your bowls to give anyone an idea of what your hot oil may be capable of. Instead you resort to calling me a troll for honestly seeking knowledge when I suggest we agree to disagree.
I do agree that I helped take this thread off of the original question in that pursuit of knowledge and for that I apologize to the forum.
ron
Ron , if you haven't immersed any wood in extremely hot Linseed oil ( by that I mean boiling linseed oil . I use that sort of phrasing so that folks do not think that I am talking about so called 'boiled linseed oil and are not aware that it is a chemical solution ) , why have you been decrying the method and giving average depth penetration measurements for it ?
I am not going to destroy my bowls just to satisfy your curiosity .
If you wish to contract me to do your testing for you , ok , but my skills do not come cheap.
In the past I have split test pieces and noted that the results depend on many variables. Species of tree , type -Hard , Soft wood , location - heart , sap . age of wood , shape thickness , length etc . In most instances the penetration is further in than the thickness of anything that I need to use this method on .
Given that I am using this for working treen, very little of it will be greater than an inch thick.
I have already said the the wood ( bowl or otherwise ) stays in the very very hot ( Boiling ) linseed oil until the bubbles stop coming out of the wood, and if possible for practical reasons , until it cools down.
( When the wood get lowered into the oil it erupts like chips ( fries) in a pan , so the whole process can take a few hours . In the very early stages of curing / drying , if the outside of the bowl is held near heat , oil sweats on the inside and visa versa )
So what does all that tell you ?
PS . I should note here that I do not treat all my wares with this method , or that I soak the item that full length of time . The intended use if the thing is a deciding factor there .
( Not that I can foresee what the end user will actually do with it )
The general definitions of stabilize are along the lines of ,
To make stable or steadfast.
To maintain the stability of
To keep from fluctuating
To fix the nature of
In terms of wood , that refers to shrinkage , cracking , splitting , warping , cupping twisting , etc.
And that gets extended to preventing the same happening in the future ,
ie. waterproofing and the like .
If some people for reasons best known to themselves , redefine the meaning to enable to sell their wood plasticizing products , you best take that up with them ,
Why would you expect this to take 4 -6 months ? You have no knowledge , theoretical or practical, of the process yet you make such a comment .
On what do you base that ?
Why on earth would a sane individual go to such lengths , only to put the product of their endeavor up on a shelf somewhere ?
Is that what you do ?
Why do you assume that I do not do any testing or that I do not put my wares to use ?
Is that what you don't do ?
I did not call you a troll , I asked you why you were acting the troll .
Why do you do that ?
I didn't. I gave measurements for what testing I've done. I asked you what you've done to test the penetration of hot oil and stated that with my experience with oil I would not expect it to go beyond 1/8 inch (roughly 3 mm).Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuka Jock
That tells me you have done some testing. It tells me that your works are thin enough for the oil to reach the center. It does not tell me if the oil that has made it to the center of your work cured. In my experience, the depth that the oil will cure is about 1/8 inch (roughly 3mm).Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuka Jock
To make stable. To me that in part means no or minimal changes with environmental changes. From my experience wood still expands and contracts with changes in temperature and humidity with linseed oil applied. The piece of professionally stabilized wood I've worked with had very minimal changes, much less than the same species with any of the finishes I had on hand (a spar varnish, linseed oil, wax and polyurethane). It follows then that the wood is not stable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuka Jock
I would expect it to take that long because I would expect 2 or 4 weeks of initial curing until I could no longer smell oil, that has been my experience working with raw linseed oil. Then I would cut it open to see how deep the oil penetrated and if it cured fully. I would not expect it to have cured to the greatest depth of penetration. That has been my experience with grapevine where the oil from a room temperature soak penetrated to a bit over 1/4 inch (about 6 mm). But it wasn't cured at that depth. I tested that by poking with a clean dry toothpick then dragging that across a piece of glass. It left a streak which does not happen with a clean toothpick. Doing the same to the surface left no streak, indicating the oil on the surface cured.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuka Jock
At this point I would set the piece aside for several months to give the oil a chance to cure.
I use what I make. Until this post you haven't said one way or the other. If I inadvertently implied that you do not test your wares or that you do not use them in my questioning, I apologize.
I'm just trying to find answers to my questions, I thought they were straight forward.
Your right, you did say I was acting the troll. A difference of semantics, but I was technically wrong so I apologize.
If you really think I'm being a nuisance for asking questions, then I can go away.
ron
Ron , if you cut in half every item that you stabilize with oil , how do you explain the glue join to the customer ? ............ :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by son_of_bluegras
If your day to day food bowls are only 4-5 mil thick then they are doomed to failure :q
The stuff you work with has ceased to be wood mate . It is fiberplastic :D
Here is a hint . Don't use smelly linseed oil :no:
bye :wavetowel2:
Hop Thief - Have a look at this it may be of some interest Attachment 142046
Hop Thief
I am coming in a bit late as I have only just found this thread. I have been also seeking advice on stabilising wood for use on knife handles.
I have found a couple of bits of information that may be of some help to you.The first is an article"Wood,Oil,and water" by Raymond & Lee Dessy (Google search). It deals with woodwind instruments that need to be protected from musicians who spit down them as they play. It is a good article and describes a number of treatments used by music instrument makers to stabilise the surface against moisture penitration.The author is a chemistry professor and he spells out why they do or don't work.
The next is some advice I was given by a gun stock maker here in Brisbane back in the 1980's. He made a couuple of stocks for me and when I asked about finish he suggested a 50:50 mix of Par-boiled linseed oil and pure turpentine oil(Gum turpentine NOT mineral) The gum turpentine is there to speed up the oxidation of the linseed oil inside the wood, where it becomes semi-solid and occupies space so that water can only enter in very small amounts rather than being filled with water. After warming the wood in the sun saturate the stock and leave in the sun 15 mins a side, wipe off the excess and buff a couple of hours later with a well washed linen cloth (Linen is lint free unlike cotton).Do that once a day for a week then once a month for a year and you should have a lovely finish. I have to admit it looked great and got better with handling,but did not stand up that well in the field.
I have also just purchased some Miniwax Wood hardener from the US (About $30 all up including post) and am going to try and stabilise some AZ desert iron wood in a vacuume chamber that I have. Still waiting for it to arrive, i'll let you know how it goes.
I also bought some 5/16" loveless style bolts from the UK on ebay (Item number 310194683093) the post from the UK is much cheaper than the US. The 1/4 inch ones are too unforgiving as they have a very small shoulder to pull down the wood.
I do wood stabilizing. My solution is plexiglas dissolved in acetone. I stable under a vacuum. As I understand it, Min Wax wood hardener is the same solution but applied to the wood it does not penetrate. For smaller items it goes all the way through the wood. I plan to use for duck calls. I'll rough turn then bore before stabilizing to save solution and assure full penetration. When stabilized the wood will be very resistant to moisture.
G'day Rifleman1776,
Thanks for that info on the plexiglass & acetone mixture, that sound like it would be far cheaper than the commercial product.
I was planing on forming a small container slightly bigger than the piece of timber to be stabilised out of aluminium cooking foil placing the wood in a small quantity (enough to cover it) of the plexi solution. The chamber I have is a thick walled plexiglass cylinder about 8" diameter and 12" height inside with an O-ring seal under a heavy plexiglass cover. The vacuume pump is an aold medical type used to suck out blood ect in operating rooms.It was from a surplus/obsolete hospital equipment sale. It is very old but seems to have plenty of oomph.
My next questions are, about how long do you leave it in the vacuume and the plexi solution that is not drawn into the wood can it be re-used?
Best regards
Jeff
Hi all, very interesting discussion.
OK from my lengthy military experience (25 years in Infantry) and humped any number of weapons over the years around Australia and overseas the following is what I found with linseed oil penetration.
On SLR (L1A1) butts they are around 2 inches thick and the wood was preserved with linseed oil (standard practice in almost all armies in the world) and the oil had penetrated the entire width of the wood. This was achieved I believe by using hot oil as well as using some form of pressure treatment and soaking for a number of days under pressure. Probably something that might be considered at home for smaller projects maybe. Australia timbers where used in the SLR Butts and the Brens had a mixture of Australian and European timbers.
Bren Gun/L7/Mag 58 butts where similar - full penetration.
Having had the odd weapon butt broken off via use/misuse and splitting from incorrect gas settings/broken recoil springs etc you get a good view of the inner wood.
One downside from linseed oil is that it does make the surface slippery when wet and dust and water builds up a tacky grime layer that can only be removed by being scapped off.
Reoiling with a small pad dipped in linseed oil was all we ever needed to do to bring it back to pristine condition. We used boiling water to clean unburnt proppelant and carbon off the weapons and this also had little if any effect on the wood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by labrat
Labrat, keep in mind you would be using a solution inside the plexiglas cylinder that is a solvent and dissolves plexiglas. Like trying to put hot tea inside a cup made of ice. Not my cupa....:roll:
The Gast vacuum pump I use draws to 23 inches of mercury. Can't equate that with your blood sucker. Also consider the internal parts of the pump, plastic parts will give out eventually from the solvent fumes. I do anticiapte having to rebuild my pump from time to time. When stabilizing pen blanks (3/4"X3/4"X5") I leave in under vacuum 1/2 hour to an hour. I'm not a scientist but I use vacuum only because I know nature hates a vacuum and believe it is easier to draw out air and moisture than to force something into the cells that are already occupied by air and moisture. Maybe a real scientist can support that theory or show me where it is wrong. Until them I'm a vacuum only guy. The solution can be reused but some woods might discolor it.
Hope this answers for you. If not, ask anything you want. If I don't know the answer, I'll make up something. :wink:
Rifleman 1776, I also have concerns about the container being damaged. Previously the interior of the container was siliconised i,e coated with a special silicon solution that is largely inert and should help protect the surface at least a bit. One of the things they use this material for is to coat glass so that the material it contains will not bind to or react with the glass.
My background is in pathology laboratory work and I agree with what you say about vacuum Vs pressure. In one of the ways of preperation of tissue sample for sectioning for electron microscopy the fixed tissue is placed in a runny epoxy mix and is placed under vacuum for several hours and this will draw epoxy into every space in the sample and any air is scuked out. Its all to do with gradients, you have a lot of epoxy outside the tissue the system wants to equilibrate so there is equal amounts of epoxy inside as outside the sample and the reverse for moisture/air in the sample it is reduced by a gradient going the other way.. Vacuum just assists this process by reducing the factors limiting flow(back pressure etc)where as pressure is trying to achive the same thing by forcing the material in and trying to overwhelm the resistance the result is often trrapped air. Histology labs have used vacuum for years for this reason. Also it takes a lot of pressure and only a small amount of vacuum.. Try the old black coffe and timtam trick where a hole is made in opposite corners and you suck the coffee through like a straw, easy and tastes great:2tsup:. Now get a mouth full of coffee and try and push it into a timtam , it will not work, is more difficult to do and it won't be pretty:~.( A tim tam is a rectangular choc coated biscuit)
I am not sure if I am a real scientist or not:?, as all scientists, physicists, physiotherapiests and radiologists have now been lumped into one big pile and called heath practitioners.
regards
Jeff
Hello Mike Busby, I only have 12 years in the Army and only the first 2.5 in Infantry( I got sick of digging holes then living in them) I also remember the L1A1 SLR, a terrific rifle and from what I hear there is a planned return to 7.62 in some limited way as they are finding the 5.56 a bit light on in some applications. My only experience with5.56 was in the M16 and M16 with M203 attachment. I din't like it much. I was pre Aug and my uniforms were green.As for the Bren gun I can remember my IET in T'ville at Lavarack Barracks and being on the range firing it when there was a torrential downpour of rain that just keept on and on and the only way we could keep the Bren gun functioning was to literally pour gun oil down the mag opening at each stoppage. Our platoon Sgt was Barry Sealy he wanted the practice completed no matter what and it was.
I remember being told that the woodwork was treated with hot linseed oil under pressure. But from experience many people do not differentiate between vacuum and pressure, I would love to know which it was. The idea of treating timber that way really appeals to me and I might give it a go. All I could do is heat the wood and the oil and place it in the chamber. as there is now way to heat after it is inside
Regards
Jeff