Overcharging Tradie...

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Originally Posted by Batpig

Anyhow, at the end of the two days, the main fellow told my sister-in-law that the bill (even with an apparent 10% discount built-in, mind you) would come to $1740, with the subtle threat that it would have to be greater if an invoice was required.

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I reckon Dazzler has given the best advice - offer to pay for the work at the agreed rate per hour of work - not standing around.

I doubt that an outfit offering to up the price if an invoice is required is going to want the charges looked at too closely in court!

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Originally Posted by rhancock

...the dodgy ones take advantage of those customers who don't ... oh, and pay GST. If they did, they'd have the protection of the authorities (QBSA etc).

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I hope I'm not misquoting you with the slabs of text cutout, but I would have thought the issue of paying GST is an issue for the service provider, not the customer. The service provider should be paying GST on cash transactions as well - if they're honest:wink:.

I do wonder about the honesty of tradies (and others) who offer to do work "discount for cash". Me thinks people who are dishonest with the taxman could also be dishonest with me the customer. But maybe I'm too naive:)

Thanks Phoenix, Dazzler, Richard, and Chris,

A little bit of sanity is starting to creep into the thread...

Earlier respondents have to remember that whilst the "Hourly Rates" that were verbally quoted before the job started were in the region of being fair, it is the number of hours that my Bro is being charged for that is the dishonest bit.

The extra $50/hr was supposed to be for a second guy going continuously on either Bobcat or Truck so that the first guy could keep going on the Drott. That didn't happen. End of Story!

A rookie on a mobile either lining up tomorrow's job, or sorting out Access with his Ex, or being trained by the main guy, does not count as a man going continuously on a Bobcat or Truck. It's pretty simple to me. I would have thought it should also be simple to anyone else who's bothered to properly read my posts :?.

Going back a few years, I had to work in with concreting crews on a daily basis - maybe three dozen different outfits. I used to drink with these guys (and that's saying a bit...). In the course of it all, I would have seen several hundred footings being dug, pads being levelled, embankments being cut back for retaining walls, soil being compacted in layers and compaction tests being done - every aspect of earthworks. Now I may be a little bit rusty nowadays, but my first reaction when my brother told me that he was being charged 2 days/2 men was "What! You're kidding! I wouldn't have thought there was even a day in that for two guys..."

As it turns out, there wasn't - Guy No. 2 wasn't on a machine, and Guy No. 1 wasn't even in my brother's yard for the whole 2 days... So it's not an opinion thing. It's a mathematical thing. SIMPLE!

So no more replies please along the lines of "The price was fair. Pay Up!" thanks very much. The thread isn't called "Do you think he's been overcharged?" It's called "Overcharging Tradie..." None of you has even seen the site, for Heaven's sake... How could you know it's a fair price? You're obviously getting the concept of a "Fair Rate" confused with that of an "Honest Bill" at the end of the job...

Chris - you're right. Since it looks like there's no official line of arbitration with these things, Dazzler's is definitely the best suggestion so far.

Thanks again guys,
Batpig.

My similar event (that I've talked about here in the past) concerned a husband of a friend of SWMBO who's a concretor. I gave him a small plant trailer (gave!!!) and when he was asking me what he could do in return, I told him I needed a 5m X 5m slab. I was shocked whe he charged me $2,500 for the slab, and it ate me up for months. Most concretors I talked to about it agreed that they would do the same job for under $2000. Worse still, just after he poured the slab and hit me for that amount, he shot over to the US for a two month holiday (his SWMBO is from the US), so I couldn't launch into a discussion with him about it. I do understand how Batpig feels.

But it is hard for us here to make a judgement without seeing the work. My assessment was based on this simple fact: I have a few friends who are drott operators, and I wouldn't expect them to spend two days at my place and pay less than $2000.

And most importantly, I would ask them for an overall cost based on the work needing to be done before they started. It need not be a prolonged and official negotiation, but something along the lines of:

"How much is this going to cost me, Harry? You're not going to go stupid on me are you?"

And his reply might be something along the lines of: "Well, it's gonna be a coupla thou by the time I ...".

Then you both know where you stand and off he goes. Under these circumstances, if he and an offsider want to stand around, that's their perogative.

As has already been indicated, offer (in writing) to pay what you originally agreed on and why. There is a fair chance he doesn't want Mr Tax man getting involved. Was the first figure written down anywhere?, if so keep a copy just incase. It does look like your brother may be being ripped off but I think there is more information required and you will only get it from the operator.

It also looks like you are fishing for the answer you want to hear and then not just disregarding the other responses, but slandering them. If you are going to ask a question in here, be ready for all responses. The good thing about these forums is you will get a few devils advocates which will give more indepth information to the subject of the original question.

Corbs

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Originally Posted by Batpig

...........The terms were $70/hr for just one man and the machinery, plus an extra $50/hr if a second man could turn up who would be able to load the truck with a Bobcat, ...............

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What you need to do is go to the contractor and work out the hours worked multiplied by the rates quoted and pay that amount.

There were 2 people on site so you have to pay for both. Are you or your SIL qualified to judge the competence of the second person. He was there and must be paid for.

If you think he is ripping you off insist on a tax invoice so he has to declare it for taxation purposes and GST. This could cost you more so you need to decide what is important to you money or principle.

As the others have said get a quote or written estimate before the work begins.

Batpig I am being picky here

Tradie :rolleyes:

Since when do you do 4 years as an apprentice to become a Bobcat, backhoe or drot operator. Even you can go buy and start up just ned the $$$$ a Truck and more $$$$ a place to dump your load and more $$$$ for tip fee's. More $$$$$ for maintenance of all vehicles.

He's not a tradie he's a contractor Owner Operator businessman CEO.
unless of course he's also the builder.

Hi Batpig,

Not a great situation to be in.

The thing which puzzles me, is that why did the person involved watch for a day or so with someone talking on the phone and not doing anything? If anyone was working for me when I agreed to pay them on an hourly basis was spending more time on the phone rather than working I would go out and talk to them. By not talking to them about unsatisfactory behaviour, you are effectively agreeing to it, and should pay the consequences.

If you are concerned about the bill, then pick up the phone and talk to them. The conversation is a simple one.
- Thanks for the work.
- We agreed to this to be done with this many people.
- I feel the charges are excessive as one person appeared to be talking on the phone rather than doing what we agreed to (and highlight what was discussed).
- Because of this I would like the charge reduced by x amount.

I would imagine most tradies like an argument about costs as much as you do, and so will be keen to resolve such as problem. Since you did not have a quote, then you are in a weak position to dispute costs.

Good luck.

Tom

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Originally Posted by wheelinround

Batpig I am being picky here

Tradie :rolleyes:

Since when do you do 4 years as an apprentice to become a Bobcat, backhoe or drot operator. Even you can go buy and start up just ned the $$$$ a Truck and more $$$$ a place to dump your load and more $$$$ for tip fee's. More $$$$$ for maintenance of all vehicles.

He's not a tradie he's a contractor Owner Operator businessman CEO.
unless of course he's also the builder.

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There's a generic use of the word "tradie" in the building industry to describe just about anyone who works on a building site. It doesn't mean anything. People like me know that we aren't actually tradespeople. But who's got the time in this frantic business to go around being so pedantic as to differentiate. Don't worry about it ......:D:D:D:D

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Originally Posted by TomH

Since you did not have a quote, then you are in a weak position to dispute costs.

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That goes both ways. You said he said. As batpig correctly points out its maths. This many $ for this machine/person. If the machine/person is not working then "no soup for you" :D

As an aside, I never quote for bobcat/tipper work. I tell them my hourly rate and invite them to watch me work. I barely stop for a drink and there is no way on gods green earth anyone would complain that I wasnt earning my keep. I even take the half hour for lunch that I have to stop while other workpeople are stopped for lunch off the bill. I have heaps of repeat customers, all down to service.

These guys fail in the service dept me thinks.

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Originally Posted by wheelinround

.

He's not a tradie he's a contractor Owner Operator businessman CEO.
.

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Wow, CEO, Im gunna get me one of them blonde personal assistants with the black skirt and the white blouse and the ..........

oh yeah :D

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Originally Posted by Calm

What you need to do is go to the contractor and work out the hours worked multiplied by the rates quoted and pay that amount.

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Spot-on Calm, but that will result in only $70/hr (ie. 1 man on a machine) and for less than 2 days (ie. wont include the time during the 2 days that the main guy spent next door.)

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Originally Posted by Calm

There were 2 people on site so you have to pay for both.

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Not at the quoted rate for 2 guys on machines

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Originally Posted by Calm

Are you or your SIL qualified to judge the competence of the second person.

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Qualifications to judge the second guy's competence are neither necessary or even relevant when the second guy is not even on the machinery that you're being asked to pay for him to operate.

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Originally Posted by Calm

He was there and must be paid for.

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In light of the above comments, no.

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Originally Posted by Calm

As the others have said get a quote or written estimate before the work begins.

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My brother asked him for a written quote beforehand Calm, but the guy declined (citing the possibility of hitting rock) and just quoted the said hourly rates. My brother agreed, nonetheless, because the earthworker was the chap who's gear would be sitting in my brother's front and rear yards in the process of digging up the neighbour's place. As stated previously, that neighbour is also now in dispute with the guy for being overcharged.

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Originally Posted by Calm

He was there and must be paid for.

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The first man, yes. The second man, no.

Thanks for replying, Calm.

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Originally Posted by TomH

The thing which puzzles me, is that why did the person involved watch for a day or so with someone talking on the phone and not doing anything?

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Tom, if what you're asking is why didn't my sister-in-law go out and pull the first guy up, it's because the rates were quoted a week beforehand with the second guy on the Bobcat and Truck being mentioned as only a possibility,not a certainty. When the main guy rolled up to do the job and there was no-one on the Bobcat, it just never occurred to either my Brother or SIL that they were going to be paying for anything other than 1 man. She sort of thought that the other fellow must have belonged to the builder next door because there was quite a few guys buzzing around. It just didn't enter her (or Bro's) mind at all as to what would eventuate with the bill...

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Originally Posted by TomH

By not talking to them about unsatisfactory behaviour, you are effectively agreeing to it, and should pay the consequences.

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It might be better to say "might have to pay" instead of "should pay", because nobody sees these things coming beforehand, nor agrees to them. The second guy wasn't exactly getting around with a T-shirt that said "I still cost $50/hr even though I'm not on the Bobcat and Truck..."

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Originally Posted by TomH

If you are concerned about the bill, then pick up the phone and talk to them. The conversation is a simple one.
- Thanks for the work.
- We agreed to this to be done with this many people.
- I feel the charges are excessive as one person appeared to be talking on the phone rather than doing what we agreed to (and highlight what was discussed).
- Because of this I would like the charge reduced by x amount.
.

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I think that's about all he can do, Tom. There doesn't seem to be an "official" type of solution. Good reply, and I thank you.

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Originally Posted by dazzler

its maths. This many $ for this machine/person.

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Dazzler, the quintessentially Classic Blokey Straight-Talking Chase-Cutting Spade-Identification-Technician, has got the whole thing nailed quite nicely here. :2tsup:

Thanks everyone,
Batpig.

Quote[My brother asked him for a written quote beforehand Calm, but the guy declined (citing the possibility of hitting rock) and just quoted the said hourly rates. My brother agreed, nonetheless, because the earthworker was the chap who's gear would be sitting in my brother's front and rear yards in the process of digging up the neighbour's place. As stated previously, that neighbour is also now in dispute with the guy for being overcharged.]

As an operator (not tradie) the company that I have worked for will always quote an hourly rate. You will never know if your going to strike rock no matter where you start to dig. The only thing rock does when you strike it is slow you up. I have struck rock on plenty of jobs that I have been on and the hourly rate does not increase only the amount of hours that you are there for. There may be the odd exception if you need to use the rock breaker ( or get one bought in), but we will notify the customer if this is the case giving them that bit of notice. We will charge for an extra operator but only if the machine he is supposed to be using is moving. Its a bit hard to charge for something that is not being done.

Batpig i can understand your feelings on this but as the second man was on site - working or not - then you must pay for him. You are splitting hairs by saying he was there but not working - the point is HE WAS THERE.

Look at it from the "tradie's" point of view. He has to pay the second man for the day as he was under his employe - so who do you suggest he charge his time out to.

I think the best thing to do is calculate the hours there by 1st man times $70 and the hours there by 2nd man x $50 pay that and tell him to whistle for the rest.

That way you are paying for what you were originally quoted 1st man $70 2nd man - if on site - $50, they cant argue with that.

Sorry if you dont like the responses you are getting, but you started the thread and asked for opinions and that is what i am giving an honest opinion. If you only want people to agree with you dont ask for our thoughts.:2tsup:

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Originally Posted by Calm

That way you are paying for what you were originally quoted 1st man $70 2nd man - if on site - $50, they cant argue with that.

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Calm, you just plain can't be reading all the posts on this thread, because it's already been said at least half a dozen times that the quoted rate was: "$50/HR FOR A 2ND GUY GOING CONTINUOUSLY ON A BOBCAT OR TRUCK" not "$50/hr for a 2nd man if on site." Tell me, what post number in this thread did you get that from?

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Originally Posted by Calm

Sorry if you dont like the responses you are getting,

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Might actually be more a case of some respondents don't like the facts they are hearing, because they seem to keep reverting back to non-facts (like your very own version of the rate for the 2nd guy)

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Originally Posted by Bluegum

We will charge for an extra operator but only if the machine he is supposed to be using is moving. Its a bit hard to charge for something that is not being done.

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Amen, Bluegum. Amen. Thanks for the sanity check, and thanks for saying something so obvious that it shouldn't even have to be said, because it goes without saying, namely that "You should get what you pay for, and only pay for what you get..."

Get back to me when you can with that post number, wont you Calm...

Many Thanks,
Batpig.

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Originally Posted by Calm

Batpig i can understand your feelings on this but as the second man was on site - working or not - then you must pay for him. You are splitting hairs by saying he was there but not working - the point is HE WAS THERE.

Look at it from the "tradie's" point of view. He has to pay the second man for the day as he was under his employe - so who do you suggest he charge his time out to.

I think the best thing to do is calculate the hours there by 1st man times $70 and the hours there by 2nd man x $50 pay that and tell him to whistle for the rest.

That way you are paying for what you were originally quoted 1st man $70 2nd man - if on site - $50, they cant argue with that.

Sorry if you dont like the responses you are getting, but you started the thread and asked for opinions and that is what i am giving an honest opinion. If you only want people to agree with you dont ask for our thoughts.:2tsup:

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Batpig you arepicking bits out of a whole response that suit your argument. Answer the bits i highlighted in red then you may answer some of your own questions.

Like i said in the above post Batpig if you dont like the response you are insisting we are wrong. Did it ever occur to you that you may not be totally in the right with your beliefs?

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Originally Posted by batpig

Get back to me when you can with that post number, wont you Calm...

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You can make all the snide remarks you like but if this thread doesnt show fairness and decency to all respondents then i refuse to participate further.