Architect Question

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The architect is trained to design. A draftsman is trained to draw someone elses design.

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You're missing the bloke in the middle: the building designer. He or she is not an architect but is more than a draftsman. They are conversant with the building code and know how to design a building that meets the standards for construction and energy conservation (well, our guy did, anyway).

Being loosely connected with the building industry, I have heard many stories of the follies of architects :wink:

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Originally Posted by derekcohen

The architect is trained to design. A draftsman is trained to draw someone elses design.

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The architect does general drawings and the draughtsman structural drawings. The architects do not design anything. They simply place what they think is correct.

You need a designer which is usually an engineer as they are the ones that do the structural design. The council will need to see that the design is structurally sound. The Building Designer is probably a builder that thinks he can do the engineers job.

Wrong. A building designer is a draughtsman who designs buildings, not a builder. The guy I used referred the structural design to an engineer. I'd say for the majority of residential jobs that encompasses the footings and the bracing and tie down specs. Trusses are designed by the truss company. The engineer will design the slab if there is one. The building designer can design floor and wall framing, no engineering qualification required if you use span tables etc. from suppliers (Duragal or LVL for example) or straight from the framing manual for hardwood or softwood framing.

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Originally Posted by DvdHntr

The architect does general drawings and the draughtsman structural drawings. The architects do not design anything. They simply place what they think is correct.

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Where did you get that misinformation from!

If placing things in places that are correct - both structurally and esthetically isn't design I don't know what is!

I think Sir Stinkalot is on the money. Give your architect a clear brief of what you want to achieve.

Get a clear costings of each stage that she will produce.

IE Design concepts say $1200
DA drawings say $2,000
BA and working drawings etc etc. (if she can do it herself or get her to recommend someone (draftsman, engineer etc) that can work with her and get a price from them so its all agreed before anything starts.

The old adage you get what you pay for... an Architectural draftsman may be good if you have a good sense of design yourself and you can express yourself on paper ....if not pay a professional.

All I know is that achitects do not do actual structural design. They may nominate some sizes based on the information provided. I have never heard of a building designer before. So they are a draughtsman that looks up tables to get the member sizes correct. Just be careful that the whole project is structurally sound is my advice.

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So they are a draughtsman that looks up tables to get the member sizes correct.

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They do a bit more than that. I would expect someone who designs buildings to be conversant with the BCA, BASIX and the bushfire building guidelines. They should have a good idea of how a house is built, what products are on the market, and what local builders do in certain situations. I'd expect them to be able to come up with a floor plan that takes into account what the client wants, the standard sizes and clearances for particular rooms, the best way to orient a house in regard to prevailing winds, view and the Northern aspect. I'd expect them to be able to layout a floor plan to take best advantage of sheet sizes and to second guess construction problems that might arise.

With the guy we used, my wife and I drew up a floor plan based on what we wanted. We sat down with him and went through it, listing what we definitely wanted, what would be nice to have, and what we wanted in terms of finish. He took it away, pulled it apart, put it back together so that it worked and showed it to us. We changed a few things and he drew up all the plans and submitted the DA. Cost: $1500 + council fees etc.

When it was approved, he drew up the construction drawings (basically dimensioned floor plans, cross sections, sub-floor details, specifications) and had the engineer provide a separate engineer's detail which included strip footing and slab design, bracing plan, tie down details and specifications. He submitted these and obtained the construction certificate. Cost: $3000 including engineer's fee. We then built it.

Some people here do not use an engineer at all. Not all projects require it. We preferred to use one for the slab design, the rest was just convenient. As far as I know, none of these things require a specific engineer's certification if they are covered by engineering details from the supplier, or are done according to an Australian standard. It's an insurance policy but not mandatory, or so I believe. Could be wrong...

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Originally Posted by DvdHntr

All I know is that achitects do not do actual structural design. They may nominate some sizes based on the information provided.

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Well they both work together if something is unusual in its concept.

Joern Utzon originally designed the opera house with a sleeker, lower profile, with larger overhangs, but with the technology available at the time it was impossible:

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The engineers tried for a long time to make the architects' original concept work, but finally both had to agree on a different approach.

At the conclusion of the intense discussions between Arup and Utzon on the final geometry of the roof shells, Arup said: 'We did not want to pull the architect down to hell, but we wanted him to pull us up to heaven'.
Clickypop

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I think there are architects and there are architects. Any architect around here who did not also provide a full design & drafting service as well would probably go out of business. Structural Engineers have their place but they're not the be all and end all of building design.

Should I tell the story here about the local engineer who designed a local builder's precast concrete walls but forgot to include reo. They were poured on site flat on the ground and when they tried to
stand one up, it broke in half. That cost him a few ski trips.

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Originally Posted by silentC

and had the engineer provide a separate engineer's detail which included strip footing and slab design, bracing plan, tie down details and specifications. He submitted these and obtained the construction certificate.

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For structural steel you may also need shop drawings. For my sisters' place, I did them myself and saved her a few grand. It cost me a lot of after work hours, but in the end everything fitted like a glove, and the crane operator was impressed. :)

If you use a system like Duragal, there is an engineering certification that covers the system in general and as long as you adhere to the span tables and installation directions, it's all covered by OneSteel's engineering department. We just had the designer give the option of steel or fire-treated timber for the external floor framing in the construction details (because we hadn't made up our minds which way to go).

But yes I guess for anything site-specific you'd need engineer's details for. I wanted to put in a 6 metre universal beam over a carport once, so I went to an engineer and while I waited he did a freehand sketch with connections and footing details on a bit of foolscap and put his stamp on it for $80!

The guy I used to design my slab in Sydney was over 80. He designed buildings and other structures at Randwick race course in his youth. He used to wear a tie and a pullover with a kid skateboarding on the front. When I first met him I thought "what have I done hiring this bloke" but all the guys at the council knew him. Not sure if that was a good or bad thing. Slab is still there as far as I know.

I just have never heard of a building designer before.

Well, if you haven't heard of them, they mustn't exist, right?

They've even got an association: http://www.bdaa.com.au/

And our bloke is a member: http://www.findadesigner.com.au/view...esigner_id=916

Interesting stat from the BDAA site:

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The BDAA estimates that 75-80% of residential work is currently designed by building designers. These figures appear to be consistent with the findings of other groups.

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Thanks for that link Silent.

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Originally Posted by pawnhead

There's incompetent clowns in every game, and having a 'B Arch' in your name won't indemnify you from idiocy. I'd certainly advise my sister not to go for someone who was fresh out of UNI again. A draftsman with a bit of experience under his belt would be a much safer bet.

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Thanks for the laugh .... this is the best thread I have come across in some time.

You (and your sister) have been burnt by going with the cheapest priced architect around ..... graduating doesn't mean that you are ready to start running your own projects. It would appear that you didn't do any research into your chosen (graduate) architect and they obviously were not up to the task.

If you were charged with murder would you have a graduate lawyer fresh out of uni to represent you or would you go with somebody with some experience ?????

In all fields university is a training ground, however there is many years of industry experience required to be fully trained.

An architect here in Victoria needs 5 years full time study, then a minimum of 2 years industry training under the supervision of a registered architect spending a minimum time on a number of different competences and then sit an exam and finally an interview board.

I am not trying to attack you personally pawnhead, but you seem quite happy to slander any architect based on your bad experience using a uni graduate. As you said yourself a drafty with a bit of experience is a better bet ..... anybody with experience is a better bet.

Building designers are restricted on what projects that they can work on. From memory it is 4+ storey .... however I could be wrong. This is just based off working with a building designer for 18 months.

This has allowed the building designer to become very competitive in the residential field which is why many architects are not interested in the smaller jobs. The residential market is filled with mums and dad who would rather save $10k on the design of their $300k house so they can get a new plasma tv to impress their friends. These people are more trouble than they are worth and it is preferable to do commercial, high end residential or developer projects.

I don't know how structural engineers ended up getting labelled as designers. They are trained and experienced in the behaviour of structures. If they are willing to undertake design work then they obviously are light on for work and might best be avoided. You may be prepared to have a shot at your own engineering but at the end of the day if something goes wrong and the brick veneer wall falls on your new plasma tv then you only have yourself to blame.

Your new house, extension, renovation is a big investment .... why cut corners of a small percentage of the overall price?