2 Pac Modern Day Moral Dilemma

I spray 2 pack every day in my job, my dad was a painter in the RAAF for 30 years and he painted 2 pack every day, my friends own spray painting shops as well. People with forced ventilation heated booths usually only have them as part of a contract for car yards ect. Most paint shops dont have heated booths. Yes they have a spray booth but only to minimise the dust. Most booths that I have worked in the paintwork comes out average little bits of dust ect but thats life, thats the beauty of two pack paint you block it down and buff it up. In a heated booth you can cure primer and topcoats in 18minutes each ready to be sanded back for the next stage. Non heated booths usually just wheel the car out in the sun for a couple of hours between other jobs. Ive never to this day seen a person wear a full hooded respirator yet when painting a car, that doesnt mean they dont use them just I havent seen them in the average paint shops. Personally I reckon they would you off to wear as your moving around the car.
Steve

im new to this and i wanna make my own thread how do i do it?

Ant18' Go back one page from this page and near the top there's a button like this one :aro-r: https://www.woodworkforums.com/images.../newthread.gif

Since some seem to find anecdotal arguments preferable:

http://www.cozybuilders.org/newsletters/news_83.pdf (see pg 7)

http://freespace.virgin.net/tommy.sandham/twopack.htm

http://www.seqair.com/skunkworks/Too...spirators.html

http://www.ecboards.co.uk/board_chapters/public/chapter12.htm

and of course: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_Disaster


And from the 3M site - FAQ's about their filters:

Can I use organic vapour filters with isocyanate based compounds?
A.
The levels at which isocyanate can be detected by smell or taste are considerably higher than the Maximum Exposure Limit (MEL) as set by the HSE. There would be no indication of smell/taste that 'breakthrough' had occurred until an exposure higher than the MEL.

The safe solution would be to use an air fed system which supplies breathable quality air to the wearer rather than filtering out airborne contaminants. The 3M™ Visionair or S-200 Air Fed Systems could be considered for this type of application .


And for the stats lovers (PDF file): (emphasis mine)

"Diisocyanate-induced asthma is one of the commonest causes of occupational asthma in many industrial countries. Several follow-up studies, included our own, have demonstrated that symptoms are very persistent for years and may well be permanent.

A small proportion only gets rid of their asthma symptoms. Unspecific bronchial hyperresponsiveness may for years affect normal life and the patients are dependent of occasional or regular medication. Thus, the disease as well as the medical prognosis, indeed, affect the patient in many ways as to some extent elucidated by our study.

For 17% of the patients, the diagnosis caused retirement from working life, 43 % of those who had got the disase considered it to be the direct cause for being outside working life at the time of follow-up.

Only about half of the diseased workers were still working at the time of follow-up. Diisocyanate-induced asthma means almost always a change of employment; only 13% of those who contracted disease were still employed by the same employer.

In conclusion, contracting diisocyanate asthma involves a series of health effects which has far reaching repurcussions not only on the patients health but also on his or her socioeconomic life."

Been busy master splinter. Still couldn’t find anything amongst all those links that backed up the scare monger statement you made youll go to sleep and not wake up the next day. That was the basis of my reply about uneducated people giving advice. Painting 2 pack is as Ive mentioned before, not as dangerous as you make it out to be, its like evrything else we have today, just use some common sense when mixing and spraying, like wear a respirator with organic filters.
Regarding your links you could have found something better than those,
First cozybuilders view of poly paints in there local newsletter, "MMscientific"
Second a guy restoring his cortina and his view "outstanding"
Third Engineer from sikorsky and his view on airborne contaminants "relevance"
Fourth a guys guide to painting his surfboard "come on now you can do better than this"
Fifth Wikipedia link to a chemical explosion "like what the"
Sixth 3m's site recommendations for what respirators they sell and recommend
And last a Speech given regarding the toxicidy of Icocyantes "which I dont argue with" they are in large amounts bad for you. But even in this long winded speech he saids the solvents added are of a greater risk with painting

The internet is a wonderful thing you can find out statistics on anything, I thought you might be intersetd in the following links.
Be warned one touch of this and you could die ie ie ie ie ie (trying for suspense here people)
Peanuts ahhhhhhhhh they’ll kill ya<O:p
<O:p</O:p

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20051125/peanut_allergy_051125/20051125?hub=Canada<O:p></O:p>
<O:p</O:p

http://allergy.health.ivillage.com/foodallergyintolerance/peanutallergies5.cfm<O:p></O:p>
<O:p</O:p

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/conditions/05/18/peanut.allergies/<O:p></O:p>
<O:p</O:p

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/29/earlyshow/contributors/emilysenay/main1081250.shtml<O:p></O:p>
<O:p</O:p

http://www.allerg.qc.ca/peanutallergy.htm<O:p></O:p>
<O:p</O:p

Maybe I might on the follow up links go with smoking or maybe phone cancers or tomatoes being a poison ect <O:p
<O:p</O:p
Wow didnt know they were that dangerous. Master splinter should I put on a full body suit with breathing gear before I go into a supermarket so that way I don’t breathe the nut vapours. <O:p></O:p>
Okay that’s enough being a smart ass on my behalf, Ill let it go now. Sorry for hijacking your thread gthome and being sarcastic.Go ahead and paint at home just use common sense wear a respirator, as far as the neighbours are concerned it would have well and truly dispersed by the time it gets there. For info paint shops which utilise 2 pack paints are regulated by the epa only when they use a minimum quatity of paint, I think its about 1200 litres per year before they are subject to being audited and even then its still self regulated. What filters do paint shops use to filter the isocyanates out prior to the paint leaving the booth, none, they use a bulk filter for the collection of the colour, but the isocyanates are dispersed into the air supply above the roof and travel with the breeze.
Steve

Simso
have you ever had a blood test to find what the levels of isocyanate are in your body???
I have and i know what mine are, they never go away out of your body you can not get rid of them.
As for deaths they may not all be documented but i know of people who have died from it yes in QLD. best you check your state laws regarding spray painting in general.
Most states have some very strict rules regarding it and some pretty heavy duty fines.
I have worked in and managed panel shops over the last 30 years and have been to paint manufacture schools who give you the truths about isocyanate and what it will do to you.

glad to join this debate

AJ

Hey look, not trying to disagree that 2 pack is not the best for you, but I just get sick of people who dont have a clue jumping on the its so dangerous bandwagon and then throwing a bit more far fetch stuff of there own, like use it for the first time and you may not wake up tommorrow youll be dead. Im simply trying to point out that there are a hell of a lot more things out there that are in fact more dangerous than 2 pak paint and there are somethings if you touch today you could be dead tommorrow eg nuts " I know bad sense of humour". But that being said I would never paint or mix without a respirator on and gloves. Most people that I know only have high readings by handling the hardener with there bare hands. Hello, common sense. Here in WA the epa regualtes only via your annual usage, and like I said before I think it was something like 1200 litres here. As far as government minimum levels well thats a crock, thats just a pluck out of there but and see if its okay, not based on anything, and time has proven that with every product out there from x-rays to asbestos. Isocyanates are bad for you and surveys prove that " I agree one hundred percent" , but if you read the documentation that goes along with all the surveys, youll find there talking in general about the foam industry.Okay enough Ill let this go now, Ive had my blip and got it off my chest.
Steve

The majority of those links are there to provide anecdotal "it's nasty" evidence for those who think that the 'official' precautions (of wearing protective gear) are all part of the international health and safety conspiracy to spoil all our fun and keep the good stuff away from us and make us a nation of big wooses. (woozes? woozzes?).

To quote from the first link (which referenced a DuPont safety bulletin):

"The safety column cited several deaths of people who chose to disregard this warning. The truly insidious part was that many people get away with spraying several projects with no apparent effect. Then, like in the case above, the person literally drops dead in the middle of spraying."

The 'explosion' link - is about the release of isocyanate gas after a tank rupture (explosion) in Bhopal, India. Initial death toll from isocyanate gas exposure was estimated at 3,000 (within 72 hours), and 15,000 have died from related illness since then. Harmless stuff indeed. I think an explosion in a peanut factory would need considerable assistance to equal that.

Many people can use isocyanate paints with no apparent ill effect; however some individuals can have rapid and severe reactions on exposure. You are highly unlikely to find individuals with severe reactions still working in the spray industry; so looking at what 'people in the industry do' has already biased your sample towards individuals with higher tolerances.

When I was undertaking a spraypainting course (Canberra TAFE, about ten years ago) the instructors there were quite clear that isocyanate containing paints must only be sprayed while wearing a supplied air mask.

But hey, we'll ignore their advice as they are part of the international health conspiracy, and (obviously) receive bribes from the neafarious personal protective device industry...an industry that only exists because of the massive profits to be made from selling filter cannisters at $20 retail. I mean, your average backyarder might buy two, or even four in a year - think of the profits!!!! And wow - if you can sell trade users a $500 supplied air mask that will only last them two or three years - that's profits that make an office chair supplier green with envy!!! /sarcasm off.

My main concern (from the point of view of backyard users) is that isocyanate is an invisible hazzard; if you can smell the stuff, you are already at dangerous exposure levels.

Think of it like using a table saw in the dark and not worrying where your fingers are 'because what you can't see can't hurt you'. You might get away with it. Or not.

Personally, I'm quite happy to fiddle around with all manner of nasty chemicals - I've been known to clean saucepans with boiling caustic soda, I use hydrochloric acid for stripping rust, I pour fuming sulphuric acid onto sugar just to watch the decomposition reaction...but these chemicals don't hide their risks.

Splash hydrochloric acid on yourself and you know about it pretty much right away; but that doesn't hold true for isocyanates - you can blissfully breathe them in through that $5.95 'Ma d e iN CH ina SoutIble foR Pain ting' respirator from the local el cheapo discount store and think you are totally safe and doing the right thing.

That's why I'm not keen on suggesting their use in a backyard situation.

Ahhh ha, didnt disagree isocyanate is bad for you, disagreed that youll use 2 pack paint for the first time and be dead tommorrow as per your statement. In high concentrations isocyanate "a very small component of 2 pack paint" has been proven beyond a doubt as a killer, in low doses eg painting the worst thats happened so far is painters asthma. Or an allergic reaction called acute sensitivity. And were not going on the fairy tales out there, my mate dropped dead in the middle of a paint job ect, if this was fact then everyone would have heard of it.
Heres a comparison for you, Did you know that a dose of 2 sievets (measurement of radiation) is enough to make your intestines bleed out white blood cells die ect, and you wither and die over approx 2 week period, but a dose of 25 microsievets is the legal amount you can be exposed to by law, because theres an assumption that your body can recover from exposure, when you stand in the sun and on the planet earth you get a dose of radiation of about 3 microsievets but when you fly at 30,000 ft the pilot gets a dose of approx 30 microsievets. So on this example alone do we ban flying because it exceeds your legal exposure or because we know a large exposure will kill us, when you get an xray done at the hospital it ranges from 5 microsievets all the way up to 465 microsievets, do we stop and say no thanks I heard radiation kills people so I dont want to know whats wrong with me. This is the same with everything in life in large doses most things will kill us in small doses were fine its all about being educated, and common sense
Yibbida Yibbida thats all folks.
Steve