power point wiring

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Originally Posted by spartan

Uhm, changing the topic slightly....Acknowledging of course that it is potentially lethal for the unqualified to do their own electrical wiring, and also acknowledging that there are plenty of unqualified people who do just that...

I find it interesting that people often state don't do it yourself because your insurance could be void....

Well I'd like to test that theory...I've been in my current home for three years. There were three previous owners before me....Anyone of them could have put in some illegal wiring (I know I certainly haven't).

If god forbid my home was to burnt down how would the insurance company go about proving that it was me or any of the previous owners...or perhaps negligence from a licensed electrician, who may of been hired by a previous owner and be completely unknown to me. An apprentice incorrectly supervised???

You see, when I bought this house I got a building and pest inspection, it says stuff like we don't inspect electricals, plumbing etc etc....But all seemed to be in workable order....

I would therefore propose that it would be extremely hard for an insurance company to prove who or who didn't install electrical wiring.

If we are going to say don't install electrical components yourself then say it because it is a dangerous thing to do if you don't know what you are doing. I do accept that many(all?) insurance companies will take up any excuse not to pay a claim. But they must act reasonably and within the law.

But them not paying because of illegal wiring does not stand up to one of the basic tenant of law - the reasonable person test. Would a reasonable person say that it was possible that any of the previous owners could be responsible for the illegal wiring - yes.

Is it reasonable that a home owner could be aware of any illegal wiring - no, afterall their not qualified, they had a house inspection, and lot's of the wiring is hidden from view.....

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Valid point.

Al :)

The insurance Co wouldn't have to prove it. They would just deny the claim. It would then be up to you to sue. Then the onus is on YOU to prove on the balance of probability that you didn't do it. The insurance company could and would speak to previous owners and they would all say that they didn't do it. That leaves you with the job of refuting them and leading the magistrate to believe that you probably didn't fit it.

Good luck.

Dan

So the easiest thing to do is get a small job done by a registered sparkie, he then has to sign off on the whole house.
Problem solved.
What a sh17 world we live in.:(

Al :cool:

https://www.ubeaut.biz/iagree.gif
Base rule with electricity.
"If you have to ask how then DO NOT TOUCH and get someone who does know how, to do it"

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Originally Posted by DanP

The insurance Co wouldn't have to prove it. They would just deny the claim. It would then be up to you to sue. Then the onus is on YOU to prove on the balance of probability that you didn't do it. The insurance company could and would speak to previous owners and they would all say that they didn't do it. That leaves you with the job of refuting them and leading the magistrate to believe that you probably didn't fit it.

Good luck.

Dan

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Sorry Dan, the onus is on the insurer as it is they who have to prove that there is a valid reason why they dont need to comply with the terms of the insurance contract. All the insured needs to do is prove that a contract exists (pay your premium) and that you have suffered a loss as covered by the contract.

Whilst I dont want to offend anyone, isn't it funny how quick people are to say get an electrician because they are not qualified, yet give out legal advice so readily. I know that it wont kill him if you get wrong.

BTW Spartan, well said.

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Originally Posted by boban

Sorry Dan, the onus is on the insurer as it is they who have to prove that there is a valid reason why they dont need to comply with the terms of the insurance contract. All the insured needs to do is prove that a contract exists (pay your premium) and that you have suffered a loss as covered by the contract.

Whilst I dont want to offend anyone, isn't it funny how quick people are to say get an electrician because they are not qualified, yet give out legal advice so readily. I know that it wont kill him if you get wrong.

BTW Spartan, well said.

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Sorry Boban but you don't have to be a lawyer to know that fooling with live wires is dangerous and the uninitiated should leave 'em alone.
Cheers

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Originally Posted by Ashore

its just that if there was ever a fire and the investergation team found abnomalities with your wireing then any insurance you have may be void, even if it did not cause the fire.

Rgds

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I based this statement on my own insurance policy ( from a Major insurer )
that reads
" You are not covered for ....

* because of intended results or acts or omissions or results of acts or omissions done with reckless disregard for their consequences, by you or your family or a person acting with the consent of you or your family.

* because of the deliberate and unlawful act of you or your family or a person acting with the consent of you or your family.

to my way of thinking and only as a layman and I am not giving legal advice will happly bow to the professionals in the legal field ie Boban
But the fitting of a power point by a non quallified electrician or the fitting too close to the roof could be regarded as an illegial act, or having reckless disregard for the consequences ie a fire

Spartan your point is valid but under the heading FIRE in the policy it reads we do not cover loss or damage caused by .....
* risk passed to you as purchaser of your home

I understand where you are coming from but these insurance companies have been at it a long time they employ experts to make sure that they don't pay if at all possible with fine print loopholes and expensive lawyers.
My point to ariel was to show the possible consequences of doing it himself and had he looked at the worst case result.

Rgds

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Originally Posted by Shedhand

Sorry Boban but you don't have to be a lawyer to know that fooling with live wires is dangerous and the unitiated should leave 'em alone.
Cheers

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I think you've missed the point. What you've just said is obvious and unquestionably correct.

People talking about legal liability on this forum is commonplace. My point was that it doesn't seem to bother anybody that they may get it wrong. Talk about 240V and all of a sudden its time to call in the expert electrician.

Dont take it personally, but your point about Ubeaut being liable for incorrect advice given here is just not right. It's not that simple. Even the lawyers with no commonsense they call judges understand the purpose of a forum. I'm not going to bore you with Tort law but if you dont believe this, then I can recommend some light reading.

Enough said on this point for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ashore

I based this statement on my own insurance policy ( from a Major insurer )
that reads
" You are not covered for ....

* because of intended results or acts or omissions or results of acts or omissions done with reckless disregard for their consequences, by you or your family or a person acting with the consent of you or your family.

* because of the deliberate and unlawful act of you or your family or a person acting with the consent of you or your family.

to my way of thinking and only as a layman and I am not giving legal advice will happly bow to the professionals in the legal field ie Boban
But the fitting of a power point by a non quallified electrician or the fitting too close to the roof could be regarded as an illegial act, or having reckless disregard for the consequences ie a fire

Spartan your point is valid but under the heading FIRE in the policy it reads we do not cover loss or damage caused by .....
* risk passed to you as purchaser of your home

I understand where you are coming from but these insurance companies have been at it a long time they employ experts to make sure that they don't pay if at all possible with fine print loopholes and expensive lawyers.
My point to ariel was to show the possible consequences of doing it himself and had he looked at the worst case result.

Rgds

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I must say you are one of the few who have read the terms of their insurance contract.

Based on what you have quoted from your policy, the loopholes for the insurer as you call them all, rely on the cause being either:

1. the reckless act(s),
2. the unlawful act(s) or
3. as a result of the increase in risk.

Put simply, they rely on the faulty wiring to deny the claim. If it plays no part in the cause, the insurer cannot deny liability.

I advised insurance companies exclusively before I was called to the bar and understand the mentality of the claims clerks. That said, most of them are brought back down to earth when the insured commences legal proceedings.

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Originally Posted by boban

Put simply, they rely on the faulty wiring to deny the claim. If it plays no part in the cause, the insurer cannot deny liability.

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Quite correct, if the fire brigade arson report indicates that faulty electrical wiring was the cause then they will deny the claim, however if that is not indicated in the report they will pay out notwithstanding that the hole house may have been wired up by a non registered electrician.

DAMHIK.:D

But the safety factor is paramount and I would not advise how to do it. If they don't know how then get a sparky to do it.


Peter.

My sparky's coming tomorrow to put some electrons in my shed :) and I know he'll do a good job and I won't die when I throw a switch. ;)
Cheers all.

Firstly
New work is very easy to notice providing some of it remains undamaged. New wiring installed within the last 5-10 years has a different type and thickness to its insulation - designed to radiate heat away from the conductor rather than insulate (contain) the generated heat. Houses built in the early 70s or before had a larger conductor thickness - read imperial sizing.

Work done by most electricians generally looks to the layman, pretty sloppy but still meets the regulations!!. Speed v neatness guess who wins. Well intentioned amateurs generally have their cable clips put exactly in the right place and its all neat and tidy - sometimes to the point of being "ana*** retentive".

The amateur who does one job will probably do a lot more.

If the fire brigade can tell which accelerant was bought from which petrol station or supermarket, dont you think that specialist investigator either from fire brigade, Dept of Energy (or what ever they call it there) or the local energy distributor can't tell you modded the wiring. Of course they can, unless all you have is a small pile of ash (absolute total loss).

The overwhelming majority of roof fires are the result of faulty or modified electricals - there is no other reason a fire starts up there. A high proportion are caused by people wittingly or unwittingly (install roof insulation) modifying their electricals.

To Ariel
Please don't wire this yourself - as said previously if you need to ask then you should get an electrician.

In the long run its not about insurance it about your own safety. Electricity kills. Still the money you save can go towards you burial expenses.

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Originally Posted by Markw

If the fire brigade can tell which accelerant was bought from which petrol station or supermarket

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Too many CSI type shows for you...:rolleyes:

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Sorry Dan, the onus is on the insurer as it is they who have to prove that there is a valid reason why they dont need to comply with the terms of the insurance contract. All the insured needs to do is prove that a contract exists (pay your premium) and that you have suffered a loss as covered by the contract.

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OK, hypothetical scenario: My house burns down; insurance company sends an investigator; he determines that illegal wiring has caused the fire; they refuse the claim.

What happens next? Does the insurance company say "would you like to take us to court at our expense?" Or does it require ME to initiate proceedings against them at my own expense in the hope that in 5 or 10 years after all the appeals etc. they might have to pay out the policy?

Interesting can of worms I've opened here!:D

I agree with all those stating that safety is the big issue here not insurance...I don't want to detract from that one little bit.

I'm sorry it just doesn't add up that I could be held accountable for the sins of others, especially seeing I've taken reasonable steps like having a buliding inspection. I've had electricians do work at my house - even have receipts to prove that - so I could prove that at least some of the work done in my house was done by licensed electricians. They have even fixed some stuff that they have found - obviously done by previous owners :mad: . Is all done - answer - don't know, why didn't do it and much cabling joins are concealed from view/access. The records keeping act (Qld) says I only need to keep records for 7 years so if the electricians receipts went out the window after that?

I'd bet there are lots of homes with dodgy wiring in them that may be classified as illegal, sub-standard or just plain dodgy. With most of the home-owners unsuspecting of any faults or issues.

So I would think (and perhaps I'm wrong), that even if my house is damaged as a result of an electrical fault that my claim would be accepted. The insurance company might like to question it, but I think the onus of proof is on them. I have a contract with them - offer, acceptance, and consideration - I've not made any statements that would constitute a breach of their T&Cs.

When a house burns down because of a faulty wiring in a TV, or because a cord has worn or become frayed do the insurance companies pay?

If the iron drops on the floor or is left on the ironing board and starts a fire do they pay? - Is that an accident or negiligence?

From the licensed electricians out there, how would an electrical fire start? Would the risk of this descrease if an RCD is fitted to a house?

Arson (at least in my mind) is a deliberate act to start a fire. I wonder how much effort fire departments take into investigating a house - (I just don't know) - are those findings fact are they a balance of probabilties - or we suspect that it was an electrical fire started in ---wherever?


This debate has made me think another potential DIY disaster - one that I have committed myself - changing my brake pads on my car - no law against that is there?

I'd like to close by saying Ariel call an electrician my friend.

I'm going off to check my brakes.:D