Attaching a Powerpoint

Just stick them back on, simple job. Technically illegal in Australia due to Australia Pussy Law number 49 but it never stopped me. I did an entire house from main switch onwards including RCD's and I am no sparky. Had a friendly sparky check it 4 years later before I sold the house and he offered me a job. Reckons it was probably closer to the standards than most jobs out there with one exception, I drove the earth spike too far into the ground (150mm exposed please says mr standards man not 100mm). If you want a copy of the wiring standards, let me know. Check everything with a multimeter before you start, and again before you touch it. Use proper wiring, connectors and install to the standard and it is fine. It is not rocket science (no offence to sparkys), use your head and you will be fine. If you have no idea, obviously dont touch it.

I dont agree with people going the hack then selling up straight away, but if you are going to stay in the house, then it is your responsibility to get it right, and live (or otherwise) with the consequences if you dont.

I am not a moron and have a very broad skillset and far bigger mortgage than can be justified by a 4 year apprenticeship, at apprentice wages, in anything that supposedly needs one. I also have a very short attention span when it comes to careers, my current 5 years in IT is a record for me and I have worked as a concretor, truck driver, call centre manager, mechanic, professional diver, IT manager, internet software developer and I am a qualified Civil Engineer and still in my early 30's. Why is 4 years required to be "qualified". What about skills based qualifications? I would take time off work if I could sit a set of technical skills based tests and knowledge exams to be able to legally do my own electrical work, building, plumbing, gas fitting, air conditioner installations etc that I do myself anyway.

OK, enough of my rant about the world trying to "save me from myself"......again.

Cheers
Ben

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Originally Posted by Jack E

Or go to your local electrical supplier and buy some BP connectors. Screw them on to the individual wires and tape them up. They are then insulated from you and each other allowing you to turn the mains back on. Then have the outlets re connected by a licensed sparky when your skirting is done.

BTW, I am a sparky :)

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That sounds like a good idea. I just want to be able to turn the mains back on without the fear of bloody exposed wires. I have had the power off for the past few days because of this.

BTW, I am not planning on reconecting them permanently myself. When it gets to that stage I will definitely be getting some professional help.

Cheers guys

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Originally Posted by Wildman

Why is 4 years required to be "qualified". What about skills based qualifications? I would take time off work if I could sit a set of technical skills based tests and knowledge exams to be able to legally do my own electrical work, building, plumbing, gas fitting, air conditioner installations etc that I do myself anyway.

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It takes four years to become qualified because there is alot more to trades than the small tasks you refer to.
A sparky wiring a house or a fridgy installing a small domestic A/C is like a woodworker being able to glue a butt joint together.
You have referred to the simplest of tasks.
As a sparky I agree that wiring a house is simple, you could train a monkey to do it. The question is, you may be able to wire an RCD in accordance with the regulations but do you know why it is done that way and how the device works, what will go wrong or work differently if you stray from the regs.
You may be able to wire a house but how would you go programming a PLC, are you any good at vector analysis, what do you know about a VSD driving an 11000V 12 mega Watt motor that moves 800 tonne?
As far as the fridgy work goes, how are you on the procedures and regs there, do you know anything about pressures, boiling points, heat loading, enthalpy?

Anybody with a bit of nouse can make something work.
The key is making something work efficiently, effectively and economically.

Cheers, Jack

A well written reply, thanks Jack.


Cheers,
Mat

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Originally Posted by Jack E

It takes four years to become qualified because there is alot more to trades than the small tasks you refer to.
A sparky wiring a house or a fridgy installing a small domestic A/C is like a woodworker being able to glue a butt joint together.
You have referred to the simplest of tasks.
As a sparky I agree that wiring a house is simple, you could train a monkey to do it. The question is, you may be able to wire an RCD in accordance with the regulations but do you know why it is done that way and how the device works, what will go wrong or work differently if you stray from the regs.
You may be able to wire a house but how would you go programming a PLC, are you any good at vector analysis, what do you know about a VSD driving an 11000V 12 mega Watt motor that moves 800 tonne?
As far as the fridgy work goes, how are you on the procedures and regs there, do you know anything about pressures, boiling points, heat loading, enthalpy?

Anybody with a bit of nouse can make something work.
The key is making something work efficiently, effectively and economically.

Cheers, Jack

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Yes, very well written, but we are talking about replacing some power points that he took of , which incidently is already illegal, not programming a plc or the other things.

As you said that we can train monkeys ( sorry Zed :D ) to do house wiring so surely replacing power points doesn't need a sparky.


Peter.

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Originally Posted by Sturdee

Yes, very well written, but we are talking about replacing some power points that he took of , which incidently is already illegal, not programming a plc or the other things.

As you said that we can train monkeys ( sorry Zed :D ) to do house wiring so surely replacing power points doesn't need a sparky.

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My reply was an answer to the question "why is four years required to be qualified?"

I am not really fussed if somebody does their own electrical work. I do alot of things around my house which also require qualifications such as plumbing so I am just as guilty.

Do these people that do their own "simple" wiring then carry out the required testing before re-energising the circuit, such as polarity, earth resistance and insulation tests.

Like I said, you can train a monkey but I am sure many people who think it is as simple as running and terminating some wires have never heard of the tests I just mentioned, which are there for safety.

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. It helps to have a good understanding of electrical theory before doing even the most simple of jobs.

Cheers, Jack

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Originally Posted by Wildman

Reckons it was probably closer to the standards than most jobs out there with one exception, I drove the earth spike too far into the ground (150mm exposed please says mr standards man not 100mm). If you want a copy of the wiring standards, let me know. Check everything with a multimeter before you start, and again before you touch it. Use proper wiring, connectors and install to the standard and it is fine.

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Wildman,

As you have a copy of the standards, could you check them and tell us what tests, other than "check everything with a multimeter before you start, and again before you touch it" are required.
You will find that the wiring you did, didn't comply with the standard if these tests weren't done for four years, a long time to live somewhere you didn't know whether it was safe or not.
Alot of people think that if they push the test button on an RCD after installation and it trips, then the wiring is OK. This is not the case as there are other fault conditions which could exist.

Cheers, Jack.

Hi All.

This one became quite emotive didn't it?

I have broken up my response according to previous statements.

My reference to checking with the multimeter was directed to the original topic of the post which was putting a couple of powerpoints back on. If you do it properly, polarity will be right easily enough, you are using the same wiring that was previously connected to these powerpoints and the earth resistance will be exactly the same as when you took them out. I would bet that there is not a sparky in existance that would perform any of these tests on a powerpoint replacement.

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Originally Posted by Jack E

It takes four years to become qualified because there is alot more to trades than the small tasks you refer to.

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I dont care how much else there is to being a sparky, I was referring to wiring a house. To become qualified, you need to do the entire 4 year apprecticeship when the requirements for domestic wiring require a fraction of the overall qualification, my gripe is with not being able to get qualified to the point where I can do my own domestic electrical work.

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Originally Posted by Jack E

The question is, you may be able to wire an RCD in accordance with the regulations but do you know why it is done that way

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As a matter of fact I do. I have a very good knowledge of electrical principles and theory. As for the fine details of exactly how the device itself is built to measure very small inconsistencies in current in and out of a circuit, dont care, not relevant to this discussion. Same as a microwave oven, I know how they work but dont really care how the magnetron itself is constructed.

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Originally Posted by Jack E

You may be able to wire a house but how would you go programming a PLC, are you any good at vector analysis, what do you know about a VSD driving an 11000V 12 mega Watt motor that moves 800 tonne?

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Read above, I dont care. Do you have a 11000V 12 mega Watt motor at home wired up with domestic wiring? If you do, I suggest getting an electrician in, and your own substation. IT has lots of acronyms too.

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Originally Posted by Jack E

As far as the fridgy work goes, how are you on the procedures and regs there, do you know anything about pressures, boiling points, heat loading, enthalpy?

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Pretty good actually, along with many tertiary level chemistry and physics projects, you will find the above topics are a significant part of a Civil engineering degree if you decide to specialise in chemical processing systems engineering (which I did until I changed to another civil stream because I found it boring).

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Originally Posted by Jack E

Anybody with a bit of nouse can make something work.

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I will take that as a compliment.

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Originally Posted by Jack E

The key is making something work efficiently, effectively and economically.

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It depends why you were doing it in the first place. To make it more economical, do it yourself. If you cant make it effective, why did you do it in the first place. Efficiency is relative, a small drop in efficiency can be offset by the savings by not hiring a sparky in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Jack E

You will find that the wiring you did, didn't comply with the standard if these tests weren't done for four years, a long time to live somewhere you didn't know whether it was safe or not.

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I have lived my entire life in houses that have never seen an electrician. Until I bought my own place, my family was completely self sufficient in electricity, wind, solar and diesel generators with multiple large banks of batteries and inverters and every bit of wiring done ourselves. I have a lot of respect for electricity and what it can do, I do not have a gung ho attitude to it and any wiring I do, I do with my eyes wide open. If I screw up, I have to deal with the consequences. Darwin's theory of evolution at work, let me find out if I am one of the ones who survives or if I am one of the ones that the gene pool wont miss if I dont but dont tell me that I am too stupid to do this sort of work unless I sit through a 4 year apprenticeship.

I digress. Getting back to my original point, domestic wiring is not rocket science, why can't I sit a set of practical exams and skills tests to become certified to do my own wiring in my own house. I do not want to make money from this and work as an electrician but I want the option to chose whether or not I do my own wiring or get an electricial contractor in to do it for me. The same goes for plumbing.

Regards
Ben

This one didn't become emotive, just brought up a few facts.

OK, so we have established that a fair amount of the 4 years of training is not required to wire a house.
I do not have a 12 mega Watt motor at home but it would make a cracker of a DC :)
I agree completely with your "Darwin" comment. I think the gene pool needs a little chlorine added to kill off the weak (read: stupid)
I guess when it all boils down to it, most things you do in your home are not going to create a life threatening situation.
A small mistake in the wiring could kill somebody and seeing as we have an obligation to protect those who can't look after themselves these days, we have Electrical Regulations.

Like I said, I do many things in my own home that I am not qualified to do and I don't care who does the same.

As has been said before, if you aren't sure don't do it.

On the same token, if you think you know what you are doing and it all turns bad, you have no one to blame but yourself :)

You asked the question, why can't I sit an exam to allow me to wire my own house.
Unfortunately, many idiots have gone before you and ruined it for everybody else. Get used to it, no matter how smart you are legislation and regulations are only going to become more a part of our lives.

Cheers, Jack

Boys, boys, boys,

Backinyerbox.

Just shove the bloody powerpoints back on, get Zed to stuff around with them, if the monkey lives whoopey, if he doesn't, well........ we've been usin' them for years for this stuff.


I'm not too sure about the chlorine in the gene pool bit though. A few blokes have tried that. Always ends in tears.

Hi Wildman,
If you were an electrical engineer,then in Victoria you would be permitted to do exactly what you are talking about.

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="90%"> <tbody><tr valign="top"><td align="right" width="50">
</td> <td align="left">Occupier's Licence</td> </tr><!--Space--><tr><td colspan="2" height="10">
</td></tr> <tr valign="top"> <td align="right" width="50">
</td> <td align="left">Application for an Occupier's Licence</td> </tr><!--Space--><tr><td colspan="2" height="10">
</td></tr> <tr valign="top"> <td align="right" width="50">
</td> <td align="left">Who Must Be Licensed</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td align="right" width="50">
</td> <td align="left">An Occupier's Licence entitles the holder to carry out electrical installation work that is limited to premises which the licence holder occupies for residential purposes, provided the applicant is sufficiently qualified and competent to hold a licence. When issued, the licence will have the residential address to which the licence applies included on the licence.</td> </tr><!--Space--><tr><td colspan="2" height="10">
</td></tr> <tr valign="top"> <td align="right" width="50">
</td> <td align="left">Who May Apply to be Licensed</td> </tr> <tr valign="top"> <td align="right" width="50">
</td> <td align="left">You must be able to produce evidence that you are the occupant of the residential premises referred to in the licence application. In addition, you must be able to produce evidence that you have completed a course of study in electrical engineering at a tertiary level which included at least 80 hours experience in carrying out electrical installation work and has satisfactorily completed a Licensed Electrical Mechanics (LEM) Assessment conducted by a body approved by the ESV.The holder of this type of licence is only permitted to carry out electrical installation work on the premises occupied by the licence holder, the address of which is endorsed on the licence.

</td> </tr><!--Space--><tr><td colspan="2" height="10">
</td></tr></tbody> </table> Maybe you can add electrical engineering to your repertoire as a postgrad.

Tools

I really can't see how you can go wrong in this case - has to be the simplest wiring job of all time. Stick the powerpoints back on yourself and keep the coin.
BTW - The worst wiring jobs I have seen have been by "real" sparkies. Not to mention the crap they left in my roof space once.

I would love to do electrical engineering, but it also requires a 4 year course that I dont have time for. Perhaps once I complete my masters of entrepreneurship I might consider it, 3 subjects to go and yes it is a real course.

Hi vGolfer, you have generated some interesting discussion with your question!

I work for a supply authority, and for six years I was in the section involved in the investigation of deaths related to electrical accidents. My views on this subject are perhaps coloured by that experience.

That you asked the question in the first place tells me that you are quite intelligent but you don't have the experience you need to do this job. Listen to your own doubts and get someone experienced to either do it for you or help you with this.

Houses do burn to the ground due to poor power point connections years after those connections were made. Family members do get shocks from poorly connected electrical installations.

I know the $100 seems a lot, but you are buying the experience as much as the time.

A word of caution to all on safety switches, they are very effective at preventing you from being killed if you get yourself between active and earth. I strongly recommend them. If you get yourself between active and neutral you will boil just like the jug does, the safety switch won't know you're there. Don't become complacent with electricity just because you have a safety switch.

regards,

John