The US Formula One **** Up

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Originally Posted by Daddles

Trying to blame Ferrari for this is sheer, unadulterated nonsense. Come on. This forum is above that. If you want to play those games, try one of the F1 forums.

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Daddles I can't believe that you gave me a "red one" for expressing my opinion about the topic at hand. Did I hurt your delicate sensablities by pointing out the fact that Ferrari sat on the fence? You tell me to take it to a F1 forum, but the topic was posted here for discussion and you seem quite happy to wade into the debate yourself but take offence to me expressing my opinion! I don't hate Ferrari and I think the Shu is one of the all time best drivers. I do however think that Ferrari don't always do what is good for the sport but they always do what is good for Ferarri.

Paul (it is Paul is it?),

I read your first post as that of a Ferrari hater. I see too many of them, and haters of other drivers (JPM and DC cop a lot of it too) to feel comfortable with that at any level, though EVERY team and driver is open to criticism. If I've misunderstood you, I apologise, unreservedly.

Richard

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Originally Posted by Daddles

Paul (it is Paul is it?),

I read your first post as that of a Ferrari hater. I see too many of them, and haters of other drivers (JPM and DC cop a lot of it too) to feel comfortable with that at any level, though EVERY team and driver is open to criticism. If I've misunderstood you, I apologise, unreservedly.

Richard

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Not a problem. I just don't "hate" any team or driver. Every driver has his moments and every team has it's place even those struggling at the back.

Michelin did the wrong thing, and then the right thing. Believe it or not.

First they didn't produce the correct tyres, which is absolutely appalling, but then they 'fessed up and advised the teams that they shouldn't run.

But WHY (?) did they have to screw up in the U.S.???? It has been hard enough to crack the Yank market, and it looked like they had finally done it, and at the "Home" of U.S. Motorsport - Indy. This is the worst kind of power hungry Bureaucratic BS that the FIA/Eccelstone/Mosely roadshow could possible put on. Why couldn't they do it at Belgium, no sorry bad place - Eau Rouge is far too pretty a section to not have on TV. Somewhere other that the U.S. and there wouldn't have been the drama, they would have just sorted it out. Instead they had to engage in this petty brinkmanship in front of 100-150,000 Americans.

What is the correct solution? Dunno? All I know is that I didn't appreciate getting out of bed BEFORE the crack of dawn to watch 6 cars start the bloody race! The most enlightened solution I have heard was to give the 6 starters (Ferrari, Jordan, Minardi) their points - since they would be getting them anyway, allow all starters to use whatever tyres they wanted (or allowed the chicane) plus tyre changes, and run it as a non-championship event - then you would have seen some REAL fireworks. That way we would have all seen a full race, and everyone, whilst not being entirely happy, could have had their P!ssing contest away from the track! There are plenty of non-championship precedents in F1 history.

Very likely, they have poisoned that market permanently. Be that as it may, my feeling is that this has been manufactured by the GPWC mob, to sabotage the F1 championship. We shall see what will happen in the near future.

C'mon Mark Webber!

I think it is such a shame that they couldn't put on a show for the crowd. I read on grandprix.com that similar stuff has happened in Nascar and they managed to get past the problem with a compromise and run a race with a full field.

I did hear on the telecast that the michelin teams were prepared to run on the replacement tires for no points. Would that have been so bad? The FIA it seems were strong on teams obeying the rules. Apparantly Ferrari were in on that as well. Maybe the Michelins have been marginal but faster the whole time and so the Bridgestone teams mainly Ferrari have struggled to be on the pace. Bring back tire changes I say. Then if you have tire problems you can still pit and race on.

Anyway no one is in any doubt that F1 is in a sick and sorry state. It is a lot like the days of ground effects and then when turbos came in. There was a bit of the same divide then with the English teams against Ferrari. The trouble is the teams are all acting in their own interest and noone seems to be acting for the good of the sport or the fans. The whole thing could die a sad and sorry death before it resurected itself as Formula World or whatever.

While I am bleating I have heard some good proposals. Like less downforce and less electronics and manually controlled gearboxes just like they used to have. The problems have always been because it is such an engineering formula. They engineer the car it runs around scores points and a better driver can do little about it. The teams are investing huge amounts of money naturally they aren't concerned about keeping the sport in it. They want a safe return on their investment.

Enough of that I think there are many of us dissapointed in what has happened.

Stephen

Hi Jack,

Wasn't intending to be contradictory.

As I understood it, there was a request for a chicane, that 9 teams signed. Ferrari were one of the teams that did not, and one of the comments I heard on the coverage that night was they had stepped back and were not involving themselves in the decision - approving or disapproving. I took that to mean that they would race whatever was put in front of them.

They did not block the chicane - there was none to block. The FIA decided not to proceed with the proposal made by the Michelin teams.

I must admit - there has been much more reaction to this that I predicted! There is obvious division between Ferrari supporters, and "the rest".

Some info came up that I had not heard- the speed sensing thing for one.

And despite positions for/against the decisions made on the day, and the mud slinging bit, I think there is a general concensus about the overall state of the F1, and where they have gone wrong.

This situation may cause an over-reaction which would be very unfortunate, but hopefully, it will highlight a great many things about what the fans want to see, and that decisions made in recent times have caused a great deal of dissatisfaction throughout the F1.

Not everyone 'gets' formula 1, and it may seem like an endless progression of cars. (Me - I don't 'get' cricket, or soccer (oops -sorry - football)). But for those that do- lets hope this disaster leads to better things in the sport.

I looooooove formula one,

It helps me sleep after a hectic weekend :D.

cheers

dazzler

Ferrari weren't even consulted about the chicane. It's not their fault. To be fair, Ross Brawn has admitted that they would not have agreed with the proposal BUT, they were NEVER consulted.

Michelin produced sub-standard tyres and then demanded that the Bridgestone runners restrict their race to match the Michelins.

Michelin runners could have raced by doing two things - reduce downforce so as not to stress the tyres or pit for new tyres every ten laps. Either of these would have been a massive disadvantage to the Michelin runners but we could have had a race with 20 starters.

Consider this.
The Bridgestone tyres don't warm up for at least three laps yet there is no suggestion that the Bridgestone runners be allowed three warm up laps in qualifying so that they can qualify with tyres at operating temperatures. In other words, Michelin is happy to accept a technical disadvantage for Bridgestone but unwilling to accept one for themselves.

When the Sauber's suffered rear wing failures last year, they chose not to race, yet Michelin did not suggest that all their teams run at a lower speed or fit a chicane to the main straight so that Sauber might compete. Michelin is happy to accept a technical disadvantage for others but not for themselves.

Minardi are dog slow - reasonable in a straight line but like Barry Sheene's shopping trolly when it comes to handling. Michelin have at not time suggested that the other teams be nobbled or the tracks be changed so that Minardi can race on equal levels. Michelin is happy to accept a technical disadvantage for others but not for themselves.

The blame for this whole disaster lies squarely with Michelin. They failed to produce a race worthy tyre and then demanded that everyone else accept restrictions to remove that disadvantage. They attempted to blackmail the FIA who sensibly called their bluff. Michelin could have raced, but they chose to issue their statement that made it impossible for any of their teams to compete under any circumstances, yet it was possible for Michelin shod teams to run, albeit at a massive disadvantage.

Michelin are the demons here. No one else.

Richard

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Originally Posted by Daddles

Michelin produced sub-standard tyres and then demanded that the Bridgestone runners restrict their race to match the Michelins.

Richard

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My thoughts Richard are not that the Michelins are sub standard, but rather that they are tuned to such a standard there is no margin. It has worked well for them up until now but came unstuck this weekend.A bit like in the old DFV days when they sometimes had a hand grenade engine in the shed to qualify with.

I can understand Bridgestone not being really friendly about giving something to Michelin when the Michelin strategy came unstuck. After all the Michelin strategy has seen the Bridgestone runners at a disadvantage this year.

Stevo

That's probably a fairer way of saying the same thing Stevo. Michelin have been playing it close to the wire for a long time now - just look at the slick tyres that come off their cars, and it's finally hit home. Pity it took out most of the grid, but I now believe that it didn't have to take out the grid. Only Michelin's arrogance in the way they demanded that the other teams be disadvantaged as well prevented us seeing a race with 20 cars. Methinks they will have a great deal of difficulty winning the control tyre contract when it finally comes in, perhaps as early as next year.

Richard

Now the bottom line here is.
When you enter any motor racing event from the lowest club touring assembly up to the top levels you agree to be bound by the regulations for that event.
And with the high level technical support these teams are suposed to have there should be no surprises for anybody.
Competing within the regulations on the cource as set with your vehicle as legaly prepared is what it is all about.
There is no good reason for this foolish behavior.
cheers