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Maybe. I was just responding to TTs suggestion for a private pick up and delivery service.Quote:
Originally Posted by doug3030
We forget that private couriers are nothing new and have been around for millennia, it's things like an immediate pick up and delivery service, and the internet that are increasing their numbers.
Hi All,
Interesting Problem.
We get 2 Papers 6 days a week, & 2 Free ones, once a week.
There is always Junk Mail in between the pages & doubled up at that.
With the Letter J/M that may have a envelope in it, I have heard of People folding up the contents, just so you can close the envelope.
It is so thick that in " returning to sender " it costs them twice as much on Postage.
It did slow those Letters down quite a bit, so I'm told.
In Passing, It was not us.
I used to receive a large volume of unsolicited mail from American Express. They used to include a freepost reply-paid envelope with their stuff. I used to wrap a brick in recycled bubble wrap and then brown paper and affix the reply-paid envelope to the front and drop it in the post. I was starting to run out of bricks before they got the hint.
Cheers
Doug :2tsup:
Back when we used to deliver the community newspaper.... (apart from myself and the dog being a lot lighter than we are today due to the exercise), we had to pick them up and insert advertising junk mail brochures Monday night and deliver them all Tuesday night!
There was in my suburb a crew of junk mail deliverers who would jam every letterbox slot full of junk mail on Tuesdays.
Our contract required us to deliver the community paper to the mail box (not on top or on the front lawn etc).
With the letter box jammed full of brochures and sticking out the front.. with the slot jammed up - it was impossible to meet our contracted delivery's.
The Junk Mail people couldn't push their brochures into the slot fully coz the contractor would drive around and tick off every letter box they could see stuffed with brochures to pay their deliverers... no visible brochures jammed into the slot = no pay for the kids who deliver.
So I rang em coz it took me 2 times as long to deliver the paper... first push the junk mail in then push the paper right in so the slots free for the postman the next day!
The response I got was "tough luck - tell someone who cares". :rolleyes:
So, unfortunately for the junk mail people - Tuesday nights was also bin night....so for the next few months...
Yep = we pulled the junk mail out and put it in the house-holders recycle bin, the delivered the the community newspaper.
This went on for 3 months, until the junk mail deliverers quit coz they never got paid for delivering because when the contractor drove around to check there was no visible brochures sticking out of the box...they were all empty!
So the contractor... started asking householders if they were getting their junk mail brochures and they all said - no its been great we haven't had any for 3 months!
His employees were swearing on a stack of bibles they were delivering...then quitting coz he wouldn't pay them if he couldn't see them...meanwhile we were still putting them in the bin - then delivering the papers as contracted!.
He eventually worked out what was happening.... and contacted me!
We worked out that if he delivered on Wednesday night instead of tuesday night = we could each earn our living without costing the other, their living!
So then the problem was solved, (No bins out on a Wednesday night to put the junk mail in).
So we delivered Tuesdays nights and junk mail delivered Wednesday nights & problem solvered. :)
Junk Mails a pretty touchy subject....
Here's the thing used to bug me most!
Letter box height!
Under the Australian Standards and Aust Post regs, the SLOT has to be 1 meter minimum off the ground. (This is for 2 reasons - both OHSW related).
1. IF the slots too low to the ground, when the posty leans right down to push envelopes in - theres the risk of losig balance and the running posty bike falling on him/her and the hot exhaust pipe burning their leg etc.
2. The risk of back injury to the deliverers having to bend so low to get products into the letter box.
Aust post deliverers have the right to not deliver/refuse to deliver to your mail slot, if it doesn't meet the standard.
Also - YOU as the householder are LIABLE if anyone (Posty or junk mail and community newspaper deliverers alike) injure their back delivering to your slot, because it doesn't meet the required Australian Standard. (Every 6 months we had to complete a report form, on every letterbox that didn't comply for height of 1 meter - which the contractor sent to their insurer so that they could deny workers comp cover claims liability and blame the house holder for liability!
The worst ones... were where these old 1/4 acre blocks are sub divided and a 2nd house built out in the back yard... and you get 2 letter boxes out the front, one on top of the other.
These type are the devil....
http://www.thestonesuperstore.com/im...-Sandstone.jpg
They are only 900 mm to the top - so even the top slot is under the Australian Standard 1 meter height - the lower slot is barely 400 mm above ground, meaning you have to get down on your hands and knees in the wet grass in winter to deliver to them... :~ :no:
IF your letter box doesn't comply to Aust standards for slot height at a meter, and someone files a WC claim for back injury (or falls off their Aust Post bike and is injured badly) the contractors WC insurer can and will sue you as the house holder responsible (looking at your public liability cover on your household insurance policy) as the responsible party.
So yes - in essence - if your mail slot is non complaint, and you don't have a "Australia POST Mail ONLY sticker"...on it & someone you never asked to deliver like a junk mail contractor is injured delivering to your mail slot YOU can get sued for the resultant back injury's as the responsible householder!
And the insurers keep a up to date list of non complaint letter box addresses - to compare to WC Cover claims forms for the address where the accident happened. :oo:
How many people have non compliant letter boxes that they have no idea they are liable for legally? Does your household insurance have 10 Mill Public Liability cover?
Did you know your non complaint letter box could cost you your house if you DON'T have the public liability cover on your household insurance?
All it takes is ONE (non invited) delivery contractors employees to file a Workers Comp Injury Claim accident based on your address, and state that your letter box is not Australian Standards Compliant 1 meter height above ground level height & suddenly you just bought yourself a law suit.
And the manufacturer & retailer of these "non compliant" letter boxes - aren't legally liable for supplying a defective product.
Their answer is that - your sposed to KNOW the laws and BUY a special concrete "Plinth" that the above style of letter box sits on and your supposed to KNOW that its a minimum 1 meter height to the LOWEST SLOT, for it to be complaint to the minimum Australian Standard!
Apparently in your defense, "ignorance of the law" is no excuse.
So - if you have no household insurance, with public liability cover & your letter box in non compliant for height - ostensibly you could lose your house, in a law suit under work cover for any injury caused to anyone delivering to your mail box!.
In fact your household insurance public liability underwriter is within their legal rights to Decline any claim made against you as the householder if you didn't supply a Australian Standards compliant letter box slot, located 1 meter above ground level.
Who would ever think that your letter box could cost you your house? :? :o
Yes we are becoming like the USA = a litageous society! :doh:
Who gives any thought to their letter box when they buy a house?
I'm not saying any of the above is "fair" - but that's how things are these days.
Ohh and a little addendum - if you have a rental house as an investment... with tenants... and one of your tenants injures their back collecting mail from the rear flap of the letter box - and receives a permanent disability, they too are within their rights to sue you if your letterbox is non complaint for the minimum height.
Just a heads up.
Gee, that gives me another reason for not having a mail slot at all!!!!
A guy at work got so sick of the Coles based junk mail he collected up several months worth (plus he went up and down his street collecting from the neighbours). Then he went into Coles in Fremantle with a heap of green garbage bags full of old junk mail in a couple of shopping trolleys and asked to see the manager and handed it back to him along with a signed letter from his neighbours with the list of addresses that did not wish to receive the junk mail. Nothing happened so he did it again - then it stopped. He also did the same for a couple of other stores. Interesting fella but I often wondered if he had much else to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by doug3030
A positive aspect of this is - if you have a non compliant letterbox for minimum 1 meter slot height & you do affix a "Australia Post ONLY sticker"... then you remove at least 50% (Possibly 100%) of potential law suit claims against you, if your letter box height is non compliant, because you have the valid legal defense that any junk mail deliverer or community newspaper deliverer, had no legal right to be on your property delivering anything to your mailbox (compliant or not), because there's clearly a sticker telling them that, they have no legal right to deliver their product to that slot.
Also because Aust Post deliverers have the right under their employment contract to choose to not deliver to non compliant height letterboxes - they ALSO have no defensible claim against you as the householder, if they DO choose to deliver to a non compliant height slot as matter of courtesy and subsequently get injured in the process.
Aust Post deliverers have a card they can put in non compliant slots to advise you that your letter box is non compliant and they will not be delivering any further mail until you rectify the problem.
So that "Australia Post ONLY" mailbox sticker, actually has a LOT more importance (legally speaking) than most people ever realize.
It could be the very difference between retaining ownership of your house (or not) in a worst case scenario, should someone be injured and you don't have insurance with public liability cover included (or should your insurer abandon you if your letter box is non compliant to Australian Standards).
A No Junkmail sticker gives you non of those protections.
Handy to know IMHO (And sufficient justification for the length & details of my contribution) for those of the short attention span theater who report all my contributions to the mods as a matter of course. :rolleyes:
Before we get all alarmed at what you say is a possible loss of house can you give us any references to support your claims or is your authority a post from a certain Ian Moone in the Homeone home building and renovation forum of 7/4/2012 which you seems remarkably similar:Quote:
Originally Posted by Timless Timber
Quote:
There's actually an Australian standard set by Australia Post for a mailboxes and ONE of the requirements is that the slot be a certain minimum size AND that it be located at least 1 meter off the ground (Not to mention this is where most people put their house numbers).
There's a reason for it - in that the postie on his Honda 110cc postie bike - has to put letters into the slow without getting off his bike....
If your slots at ground level or thereabouts - several things can happen. (ONE particular mass produced letter box actually has the bottom slot within 6 inches of the ground for multi occupancy sites like units etc). These are that the mail man (and those who deliver unsolicited advertising brochures and community newspapers periodicals and magazines) might either do themselves a back injury bending down below the specified 1 meter height for the delivery slot, or if they are motorcycle mounted - actually fall off the bike while reaching to near ground level... to deliver the mail.
So who as the property owner cares right?
Wrong! Because there is a mandated Australian Standard (including minimum height above ground for the slot) the Insurer (in the case of Australia Post their workers compensation cover provider, and same for private deliverers of advertising and papers etc) will actually deny liability for an injury claim, where the mailbox doesn't meet Australian Standards! This means that they pursue the landowner (and thus his household insurer if his policy includes any public liability component) for the costs incurred when a deliverer files a back injury or other workers comp claim (hot exhaust pipe burns to the leg for the postie who's motorbike falls on him while leaning down to the ground to deliver thru the ground level slots on units developments)...
We all know the outrageous law suit damages claims & huge multi millions $ payments ordered by the courts these days by the injured and lets face it spurious claims by those who rort the system for lump sum payments is becoming pandemic!.
The thing is - as the landowner - YOU have the responsibility to abode by the Australian standard for your letter box....so IF your home insurer - who carries your public liability sees that your letter box doesn't meet the Australian Standards in terms of minimum height above ground of 1 meter, then THEY can also deny liability - and guess who as to pay then....for the multi million court awarded damages...
Yep - Tag and your it!
Yes - you can lose your house and everything you and your ancestors worked and toiled their entire lives to accumulate in terms of assets & wealth - all because the house you bought didn't have a letter box that meets the Australian Standards in terms of minimum height above ground of the letter box slot!
I know that some delivery's contracts now require that the deliverers make and supply a list of letter box addresses within their runs that don't comply with the minimum height requirements, which they supply to their work cover insurers for a database to identify which addresses will either not receive their mail or for who the injury liability will not be accepted by the deliverers work cover insurer.
You may not even know that your address is on the list and that you are actually covering the liability...because your letter box is non compliant in terms of the Australian Standard with regard to minimum height.
Peter.
We've had three notices from the post office about a decade ago about the state of our letter box.
Basically the wooden post the letter box was attached to rotted out so I propped the post up against the fence with the letter box attached on top.
The wind used to occasionally blow it over which I'm sure off the postie but it was in that state that for about 3 years until one day a postie left a note saying that mail delivery would be suspended until the letter box was affixed to something.
So I then took the letter box off the post and perched it on top of the fence and put a brick on top of it, but that resulted in another "unsatisfactory" note from the postie, so I ended up nailing it to the fence - that was OK!
Not long after that I built a new fence, and attached a new letter box to that and got a third notice saying the box was was too high.
Then I looked up the regs and sure enough the slot could not be more than 1200 mm above the ground whereas mine was about 1350 mm.
It took me 30 seconds to find this official document Aust post requirement for letter boxes.
http://auspost.com.au/media/document...x_02_Aug13.pdf
Basically the slot must be between 900 and 1200 mm above the ground for a single mailbox and 600 and 1600 mm for a group of mailboxes.
The full terms and agreement on Australia post delivery is here. General Terms & Conditions - Australia Post
In the legal blurb I cannot find anything other than "if your mailbox does not comply we won't deliver"
I suspect if the postie tries to deliver to a non-spec mailbox then the onus will be on he/she not to do so.
Aust Post actually put out info on it.
http://auspost.com.au/media/document...cification.pdf
Quote:
The elevation of the letterbox slot should be between 900 mm and 1200 mm above the ground
Now before you all jump on me for saying minimum 1 meter LOOK at the photo in the document above and the 900 is the stem of post box the front with the slots s'posed to be a further 160mm above that as depicted!
Australia Post Our post – Primary, letterbox
Plus there's an Australian Standard - Letterbox Specifications - Australian Standards
Again the 900 measurement is the POST that the box is sposed to sit on top of it and the BOX has a specie for the height of the slot...Quote:
Mailboxes should be positioned so that the aperture is between 900 mm and 1200 mm above ground level and conveniently located so that the delivery officer does not have to dismount from a bicycle or motorcycle to insert mail.
Combined.... that's a fraction over 1 meter!
The compliance lists we had to complete each six months as contractors - just said record any slot height below 1 meter!
Ian Moone?
Looks a lot like an anagram to me....
I I
A A
N M
M N
O O
O O
N N
E E
:wink:
Cheers!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturdee
Having read all the references quoted I still haven't seen anything that potentially puts a homeowner at risk if the postie or others injure themselves putting something into a non complying mail box.
I can only conclude that the post is scaremongering without any factual basis.
Peter.
Sorry to disagree but that's not how I read itQuote:
Originally Posted by Timless Timber
There is no specification for the post that the box sits on - just the height of the slot.
The post or base can literally be any height as long as the slot is between 900 and 1200 mm above the ground and the horizontal aperture must be at least 230 mm X 30 mm and at least 130 mm above internal base.
The post or base could be 770 mm high with a letter box on top of it that had a slot that was 130 mm above the bottom of the box.
A slot at 1200 mm above the ground in the wall of a tower block would also meet the height spec.
I see this allows for the use of suitable height rubbish bin with a slot in the top. :D
If i told you the river is legally the ocean, you wouldn't believe that either - even if I posted links to a case where the high court ruled it so!
Hows that relevant? (I hear you asking) - well it's the legal loophole an insurer used to get OUT of their liability under 3rd party public liability cover for an accident on the swan river - the clause known as "Peril of the sea".
Gibbs v. Mercantile Mutual
If you don't think your insurer will dump you like a steaming hot ####, over public liability claim - when someone claims workers comp due to your non compliant letter box - then - your living in a fools paradise... and the insured boat owner above found out much to his dismay (lost his house and everything coz when his insurer bailed the lady sued him for everything and won).
Run the risk - it's no skin off my nose... BUT - ask yourself this question...
Why does the prime contractor collect lists every 6 months of letter boxes addresses that don't comply with the Australian Standards? - if NOT to protect themselves against workers comp injury claims, and to provide details to their insurer, to use against the house holders public liability underwriter OR once the underwriter becomes aware of the loophole with non complaint letter box, and refuses to pay up - against the householder themselves?
Accept or not - it's no skin off my nose, if someone loses their house, coz they bought a non compliant letter box. :)
If just one person prevents such claims by being aware and making sure they have a compliant letter box (or affixes a Australia Post ONLY sticker) then the thread (and my contribution) has served its purpose, has it not?
How many people were aware that s simple sticker... might be the difference between potentially losing or keeping their house in a worst case scenario?
As usual here - shoot the messenger - rather than hear the message. :rolleyes:
Whilst I applaud your rubbish bin sentiment Bob, the photo in that PDF doc refutes your premise sadly! :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL
I'd link it in here but being PDF I can't seem to get it across to the forums architecture with IMG tags to demonstrate my point.
Check the pic in the link for details.
:U :D :wink: (Damn stirrer) :U
Go to your sheds and do something useful. :~