Dust masks

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Originally Posted by Soredust

I shudder at the thought of routing MDF with just a lightweight nose and mouth mask.

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Sorry I did mean AFTER you had installed a dust extraction system.

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The dust that is created by routing MDF is amazing. The money and time involved designing, purchasing and installing a Dust Extraction System capable of allowing me to work mask free minutes after a routing job, is a far greater price than that of the Trend PRO unit.

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I agree routers make a lot of dust and MDF is nasty stuff. I lost my sense of smell for 6 weeks while working with it outside.
By not collecting or venting MDF dust this creates a toxic workplace that means every time you work in your the shed you will have to wear a mask. Any mask, even a comfortable one eventually becomes a PITA to wear and my experience is people stop wearing them.

BTW if you look in that link that you supplied you will see it says that masks should be amongst the very last and not a first resort to solving a dust problem.

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Originally Posted by BobL

Sorry I did mean AFTER you had installed a dust extraction system.



I agree routers make a lot of dust and MDF is nasty stuff. I lost my sense of smell for 6 weeks while working with it outside.
By not collecting or venting MDF dust this creates a toxic workplace that means every time you work in your the shed you will have to wear a mask. Any mask, even a comfortable one eventually becomes a PITA to wear and my experience is people stop wearing them.

BTW if you look in that link that you supplied you will see it says that masks should be amongst the very last and not a first resort to solving a dust problem.

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Don't be sorry Bob, I understand what you meant, even with a DES in place, I wouldn't want to use a router on MDF and only have a nose/mouth type mask, they just aren't up to the task. Even with a dust extraction hose connected to a router, they throw out gallons of MDF dust and by the time your air purifier has turned over the shop air to the point you don't need the mask you will still have been exposed.

Don't get me wrong Bob, I'm picking up what you are putting down. I realise that the respirator is meant to be the last line of defence but if it is a good one and is worn ALL the time, I believe it will do the job UNTIL I have a better system in place.

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Originally Posted by Soredust

Don't be sorry Bob, I understand what you meant, even with a DES in place, I wouldn't want to use a router on MDF and only have a nose/mouth type mask, they just aren't up to the task. Even with a dust extraction hose connected to a router, they throw out gallons of MDF dust and by the time your air purifier has turned over the shop air to the point you don't need the mask you will still have been exposed.

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Forget the air purifier and what you can see.
It's only natural to focus on what you can see but unless you have a skin allergy, anything you can see won't hurt you .
Chips are just nuisance value - it's the stuff that cannot be seen that is important and it's not that big a deal to collect that at source.

When I use my lathe (even with MDF) I can be elbow deep in visible chips and shavings on the bench, ankle deep on the floor and surrounds, but the sub 5 micron particle count anywhere in the shed will be the same as what was the backyard before I started. This demonstrates that the fine stuff is being grabbed at source. Sure it makes sense to sweep the chips up before they get trodden and pulverized into smaller stuff but generally it is no biggie to occasionally vacuum them up with a flexy line from a DC. I do have a room air purifier but I find I never need to use it as there is nothing to clear from the air.

I agree routers are big dust generators but once again what you see can be deceiving. Just because routers operate at higher RPM and spray visible stuff all over the place does not necessarily make them any worse than other power tools in terms of spreading invisible dust. I haven't done exhaustive testing but from what testing I have done sanders spread more fine dust around than routers. Fine dust moves with air currents so when a router bit turns at high rpm the air around it just moves with the bit and it does not get flung off like a slower moving shaft or belt might do. This is why a decent vacuum cleaner can do a fair job on collecting fine dust from routers. When left without any dust collection the motor cooling loop on a router is more likely to spread fine dust than the router bit. An $89 Vacuum cleaner with the filters removed venting into a $300 2HP DC will do a fine job on collecting dust from a router. It's in the same ballpark cost as a powered mask but doesn't turn a shed into a toxic environment and no one need to be stuck inside a mask all day.

Well Bob, after having to wear the dust mask every time I entered the shed, and then having to lift it up to drink my scotch every five minutes, only kidding...about every ten minutes:p, I have ordered a Clear Vu from Stephen. It got old real quick and even then I was going to bed with an irritated nose and itching legs, from the MDF dust I presume.

I not sure what will kill me quicker though, the dust...or SWMBO when she finds Stephen has her cruise money:~ LOL.

So I will be watching the cyclone threads very closely for tips and tricks.:2tsup:

Onya SD - another one saved! :2tsup:

Sorry but here we are with yet another baby thrown away with the bath water.

Bob bangs on at infinitum about invisable dust being the biggest problem.......for the vast majority that is simply a load of rot.

For the vast majority they have enough quite easily visable dust to produce definite and short term active health problems...piles of the stuff, thick on the ground and on every surface.

The vast majority out there are working with little or no dust extraction at all and in most situations have no hope of effective at source dust extraction.

Good quality paper dust masks do have a place and can be made to work effectivly.

BUT you do have to buy good quality ones and you do have to work to make them fit.

It is important to get the straps in the right place on your head to hold the mask firmly in place....not I said "straps", if there is only a single strap you have a paint strainer.

second good paper masks have some sort of soft seal flap inside the nose piece and a metal stiffner in the nose piece.

It is important to get the metal stiffner shaped properly to fit your nose...I have found that I can not do this with the mask on my face.
I shape the stiffner and trial fit till it is right before I attempt to put the straps over my head.
Once you have done a few you will get an idea of how to do this reasonably quickly.

If you are fogging up your glasses the mask is not fitting correctly.

If you want to sped a little more, the masks with an exhalation valve tend to leak far less on exhalation.

I own a very good respirator but I find it impractical for continued use when only dust protection is required.

A good qulaity, properly adjusted paper mask I find light and comfortable for extended periods and has far less breathing resistance than any unpowered respirator.

As for having to wear a mask any time I am in the workshop...Oh for goodness sakes lets have a reality check here.

There may be dust in the air but good basic ventilation goes a very long way to solving any residual problems.

Fumes from paints varnishes and glues also hang around in almost all of our workshops for a very long time without proper ventilation.
Is BOBL the recommending that we should be wearing an organic mist respirator at all time while in our workshop.

Fresh air and good ventilation solves a great many problems, oggy boogy "invisable dust" with them.

For goodness sakes do not believe for a minute that it is not worth putting on a simple good quality paper dust mask.

A great many people would have avoided significant health problems if they would have fitted a simple good quality paper dust mask.

cheers

Hello Mr. C,
For general use, I thoroughly recommend the
Dust Bee Gone mask . They are not cheap about $35. Jim Carroll has them.
They are very good and are washable. 10 times more effective than the standard type.
I also use the Triton respirator when sanding and have found it invaluable. I suggest that you
research out the detail on the DBG mask, I think that you will be impressed. Drillit.





QUOTE=Mr.C;1664715]Guys,
Have just had a nasty health scare, so I'm looking for suggestions for dust masks.

Have tried the disposables, but if they sit over my specs, they don't work, if they sit under my specs, they fog up said specs.

Any one got a recommendation?

I'm hoping to make the Sydney show, come next Sunday, but don't have a clue!:?

Help gratefully accepted![/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by BobL

<first few paragraphs snipped out>

An $89 Vacuum cleaner with the filters removed venting into a $300 2HP DC will do a fine job on collecting dust from a router. It's in the same ballpark cost as a powered mask but doesn't turn a shed into a toxic environment and no one need to be stuck inside a mask all day.

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Hey Bob,

I don't understand what you are suggesting.

Why not have the dust extractor hose as close as possible to the router bit ?

What is the benefit of having a vacuum cleaner between the router and the DE ?

Got a photo to help me understand ?

Bill

The issue that bob is trying to get arround is that routers need high pressure, low volume suction, where dust extractors supply high volume, low pressure vaccuum.

Bob hates vaccum cleaners because his instruments show them mostly to have poor filtration performance and produce large volumes of nasty :oo::yikes:"Invisable Dust":yikes::oo:.

The easier solution is to put a long hose on the vacuum cleaner and put it outside AND ventilate the workshop.

that is appart from the fact that most of us will never achive efficient at source dust collection particularly of :oo::yikes:"Invisable Dust":yikes::oo: ....so we should be wearing a dust mask anyway.

cheers

OH...just as an aside.

All the OHS texts will tell us that we should be using other control methods before PPE and that PPE is a last resort.

THEN...walk onto almost any properly managed industrial site and they will not permit you to work without.....steel cap boots, high vis, hard hat, gloves and safety glasses.

So what happend with this last resort.

In reality in the real world PPE is the first resort, because that is the only thing that can be guaranteed to work and the only thing each individual can be held respnsible for.

cheers

Soundman, I can only go on what I think is right for me. The MDF I was producing was irritating my skin and nasal passages, and this was from just working in the shed kicking up old dust from the floor from the previous days work. I tried the dust masks, good quality ones with top and bottom lines, rubber lining around inside for a good seal, metal strip to contour around the nose and a valve. I'm afraid I still had irritated nasal passages and gummed up eyes.

For me, I don't mind spending the money and at least having an attempt at having a dust free environment to work in.

What Bob posts makes sense. If you are happy with a dust mask, all good, I tried them and a respirator....wasn't my cup of tea.

As for steel cap boots and hi vis vests, they too are last resorts. OH&S dictates a safe working environment to prevent things rolling onto, falling, cutting your boots. Cages around high work platforms to stop tools being kicked off and hitting your "last resort" helmet. Designated pedestrian crossings to separate vehicles such as forklifts from workers, but if the worker strays out side the lines...bingo! "last resort" hi vis vest comes into play. Have you worked in industry?

If you are kicking up dust from the previous days work and you have gummed up eyes we are not talking about an :oo:Invisable dust:oo: problem.

We are talking about a failure in basic house keeping, and a problem of gross air polution.

Even the most basic dust management will be an improvement.

If you are particularly sensitive to MDF....you are dreaming if you think you are going to achieve sufficiently effective at source extraction and effective filtration.

It will be necessary to employ good ventilation and PPE.

Mate when steel cap boots and PPE are a primary requirement in almost every workplace.....they are not a last resort.....they like dust masks are eliments in a risk management stratergy.....and usually because the other control measures are almost always only partly effective.

cheers

One of the big issues no one attributes to particle boards and MDF - is the glue they are made from.

I know people suggest that the "invisible dust" is an oogy boogy etc - but in this respect Bob L is correct - he's probably just dumbed it down for the general readers comprehension level.

The glue used is Urea Formaldehyde.

Formaldehyde - Material Safety Data Sheet

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ACUTE HEALTH EFFECTS

Swallowed:
Toxic if swallowed.
Will cause burns to the mouth, mucous membranes, throat, oesophagus and stomach. If sufficient quantities are ingested (swallowed) death may occur.
The methanol stabilizer in solutions is a cause of visual impairment and possible permanent blindness.

Eye:
Will cause burns to the eyes with effects including: Pain, tearing, conjunctivitis and if duration of exposure is long enough, blindness will occur.

Skin:
Toxic by skin contact.
Will cause burns to the skin, with effects including; Redness, blistering, localised pain and dermatitis.
The material is capable of causing allergic skin reactions and may cause skin sensitisation. Toxic effects may result from skin absorption..

Inhaled:
Toxic if inhaled.
Will cause severe irritation to the nose, throat and respiratory system with effects including: Dizziness, headache, incoordination, chest pains, coughing, respiratory paralysis and or failure.

Chronic:
Some long trerm animal test data suggests a carcinogenic potential for the formaldehyde contained in these solutions. This was found to occur at levels which caused chronic tissue irritation, and was well above the exposure standard. These particular data are not considered relevant to normal use because these high concentrations would not be voluntarily tolerated by humans, but do emphasise the need for care in handling. Chronic exposure to methanolfrom skin contact, inhalation and/or swallowing, at concentrations greater than 1000ppm can result in permanent blindness and central nervous system effects.

Formaldehyde:
Reported fatal dose for hgumans: 60-90 mL
Oral LD50 (rat): 800 mg/kg
Inhalation LC50 (rat): 590 mg/m3
Low concentrations of formaldehyde may cause sensitisation by skin contact. Formaldehyde vapour is irritant to mucous membranes and respiratory tract. Asthma like symptoms have occasionally been reported following inhalation.
Animal studies have shown formaldehyde to cause carcinogenic effects. In particular, chronic inhalation studies in rats have shown the development of nasal cavity carcinomas at 6 and 15 ppm. These cancers developed at concentrations which produced chronic tissues irritation and would not be voluntarily tolerated by humans. [IPCS Environmental Health Criteria 89, Formaldehyde, World Health Organisation, Geneva, 1989.]

Some positive mutagenic effects have been reported for formaldehyde. Available animal data do not show embryotoxic or teratogenic effects following exposure to formaldehyde.

This material has been classified by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) as a Group 2A agent. Group 2A - The agent is probably carcinogenic to humans. [IARC Monographs on the Evaluation of the Carcinogenic Risk of Chemicals to Humans. - Supplement 7, World Health Organisation, 1987].

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So as well as the long fiber grain dusts that in themselves are irritants not unlike asbestos fibers.... the glue used (Urea Formaldehyde) when atomized is the nastiest of stuff....

I believe there may come a time eventually when the dangers of MDF will be realized to be as bad as asbestos if not worse in terms of human health.

Please don't dismiss the dangers of the "invisible dust"...

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Formaldehyde

Formaldehyde is common to the chemical industry. International production was over 46 billion pounds in 2004, according to the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC). It is well known as a preservative in medical laboratories, as an embalming fluid, and as a sterilizer. Its primary use is in the production of resins and as a chemical intermediate. Urea-formaldehyde (UF) and phenol formaldehyde (PF) resins are used in foam insulations, as adhesives in the production of particle board and plywood, and in the treating of textiles.

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My old dad died of Esophageal cancer (Throat Cancer) after 20 years of working this crap material...

If you can extract it at source - well your health might thank you long term.

When I was a kid i got some from a relative who is a pharmacist - and used it to inject into large Marron to dry up their meat & preserve it for mounting them as specimens onto polished boards to display. Its a favorite with taxidermists for its embalming (drying) qualities for the gizzards and flesh inside things that can't be skinned to mount.

There was a common known illness of old taxidermists called "taxidermist lung" probably attributable to formadehyde exposure.

Victim of Formaldehyde Gas Poisoning Tells All You Need to Know to Avoid It

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Formaldehyde Exposure 101
In high school Biology classes I remember having to dissect pickled worms, frogs, baby pigs, and even a mink. Yes it was a gruesome scene, but not nearly so gruesome as the sour odor from all the Formaldehyde (a.k.a. "Morbicid") these cadavers were preserved with.


The teacher usually stored our mutilated critters in non-air-tight bags under her desk in between our hack job sessions. So the off-gasing of Formaldehyde was both constant and very concentrated in the Biology classrooms for weeks at a time.


There were many complaints of headache, dizziness, watery eyes, and respiratory difficulty. But back then the dangers of exposure to Formaldehyde was not as well understood so we suffered onwards with few eyebrows raised. The same public schools were also loaded with Asbestos and Lead-based paints back then too. We just didn't know any better.


Formaldehyde Exposure 102
During my college years this toxic gas once again contributed to Building-related illness at the state university I attended.


Formaldehyde was used as a common preservative in the thousands of jarred specimens and animals used for anatomical dissections there too. Yes, unfortunately I have had to do many cadaver dissections throughout my academic career.


The pungent smell of Formaldehyde preservative was thick throughout the Biology buildings and after a ventilation failure, it and other air pollutants was suspected to have made many students and professors ill with headaches, nausea, and respiratory difficulty. I was among them and once again had become a potential victim of Formaldehyde poisoning.


This time our Sick Building Syndrome story made the 6 O'clock news and that was the year the university along with the rest of the nation really started realizing how much of a problem building-related illness was. It was a foreshadow to the green-building revolution now well under way.


Have you ever suffered from burning eyes, nose, throat, or lungs while only in a particular building or home? If so, you too may be inhaling elevated levels of this noxious gas. But hopefully you've never had to dissect a baby piglet or live in a FEMA trailer...

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In essence the "invisible dust" that Bob refers too is every bit as potentially injurious to your and your loved ones health as asbestos fibers and should be treated with the same respect IMHO.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by soundman

If you are kicking up dust from the previous days work and you have gummed up eyes we are not talking about an :oo:Invisable dust:oo: problem.

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The gummed up eyes is when I am producing dust whilst using a dust mask as the only protection, I should have paragraphed between the invisible dust and mask information.

As for personal PPE not being the last resort? We will just have to agree to disagree.:)

All too often these workplace health and safety issues go from the compltely wreckless to the rediculouly conservative and the solutions similarly.

This is one reason all too often people just cease careing about the whole thing, and make bad or unworkabe safety decisions.

There are people out there who will try and tell you that MDF is a murderous substance and compare to to asbestos.......let me tell you it is nowhere near as bad as asbestos and anybody that tries to tell you it is..is deminishing the very real and insidious hazards of asbestos.

There are most definitely people out there who have suffered very badly from MDF exposure, and if you are stupid enough to work with the stuff and just let the dust fly where it will, with no mitigation or management....of course you will suffer.

I know a couple of people who have suffered significant heath problems from MDF.

The hazards of MDF are well documented and well understood..but there are also those for reasons of their own are prepared to beat those hazards up even further. This helps no one....there was a specific MDF thread on this very forum a while ago that discused the specific hazards of MDF and other timber materials.

Truth to tell there are more hazardous and dangerous woods that grow naturally.

Then we have the old formaldahyde chestnut......this too has been beaten and miss-stated up by variuos people at various times for variouis reasons.

All timber dust is harmfull to breath, a great many timber dusts will cause eye and skin irritaion. Some very much worse than others.

Most glues and resins used in manufacture of timber board products have some sort of associated health issue. Urea formaldahyde glue is not on its own here.

It is unwise to work with any timber products without some sort of dust management.....but plenty do.....our friend BOBL beats on :)(invisable dust:)( :flog: and yes it is an issue......but by far, for the majority the basic management of dust that is plainly visable and thick on every surface is a far more pressing issue.

The truth is, it is very hard to get good dust capture particularly of :)(invisable dust:)( at source on so many tools and machines...... it is like wise far from cheap and easy to get good filtration efficiency right down to the fine level of :)(invisable dust:)( .

You just have to look at BOBL's own posts and threads and the work of Bill Pentz and others to see that that is the case......that is before you try and achieve this yourself.

What is managable and what is achievable AND what is afforadable for most, is reasonable and basic dust managment, simple basic housekeeping and the use of PPE.

Without these basic and reasonable steps, some sort of heath effects are a near certainty.

With basic and reasonable steps, the health risks and the discomfort can be reduced to a very low level.

Three of the most important factors in reducing all risks in all workshops of all types are good light, good ventilation and good housekeeping.
Without them all risks in all workshops of all types excilate.

Almost without exception industrial risk assessment practice will include PPE, simply because almost without exception, the other managment methods, like our dust management are not 100% and can not practically be made 100%.

As for dust masks.....I always have them on hand...once you learn how to use them properly they are a cheap, simple and effective managment tool.

As for formaldahyde......no dust mask or dust extraction system will reduce the hazards asociated with gasseous formaldahyde...it seeps out of the boards just sitting there on the stack.

The timber board industry have been aware of the Formaladhyde issue for a very long time and the better board manyfacturers have significantly reduced the amount of outgassing of this substance over the last decade or so...or so they tell us.
How this issue plays out in cheap imported board...hmmm good question.

As far as the toxisity of UF glue in dust......well, its a minor issue compared to other timber dust issues, even the other issues associated with MDF.

SO
Regardless of what else you do, as a tradesman, woodworker or home DIY enthusast, one of the first things you need to do is source a good dust mask, that you can live with and make sure you know how to make it work properly.

cheers