In the Market Place, what do the Moderators think that 'PM Sent' means?

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Originally Posted by adeben

In response to Yonnee:
I thought I had made it clear in my post that I was not intending to buy, just seeking further information. If another poster was prepared to buy immediately without further information, then, as far as I'm concerned, the seller can take that offer. I never imagined that using 'PM sent' would or should give me any priority to buy: It's perfectly clear that being first to post something like 'I'll take it' should give priority.
However, there was a question raised above about sending a PM to discuss a price reduction. I don't believe that such negotiation should be done via viewable posts, because it allows other folks to enter the process, which will muddy the notion of 'priority', and almost inevitably will encourage gazumping.

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My response was a general clarification, not intended to specifically target a particular case. In this case your original question in this thread was "what do the Moderators think that 'PM Sent' means?", to which the simple answer was, and still is, "we have absolutely no idea what it means as we cannot read minds". In this case the post possibly should have read, "PM sent, more information required", and therefore would have avoided any ambiguity.
In the case where a potential buyer wants to negotiate privately, then a simple "PM sent with offer" (or similar) clearly states your intention to buy without disclosing financial details.

I've only just come across this thread and, as the mod who made the post, I feel I am best placed to answer.

The short answer.
My response was not a rebuke, it was a caution to everyone about the conduct of sales. To get further information a "PM sent seeking clarification" is sufficient. "PM sent" used to indicate someone wanted to buy it but it was too confusing and unclear to other interested parties.

The long answer (for everyone, this response is not aimed at the OP specifically).

First, the rules are there for some very good reasons, we DO NOT invent them for us (admin), they are there to protect those who complain they have been ripped off, gazumped, mislead, ignored, bypassed, lied to, low-balled, baited and switched, defrauded, sold junk, misunderstood etc.

Most people do not read the rules and just post what they see others doing. The mods have no idea who reads what, but we do develop a kind of "sixth sense" after a while for threads in the Market Place that have the potential to go wrong.

An example:

A few weeks ago I posted a very similar caution in a thread that was almost a duplicate in timing and offers/PMs. After I posted the warning a member said "I'll take it" and immediately there was a problem. The seller ignored the rules and had agreed to sell to another member who had ALSO ignored the rules and made an offer in a PM, nothing recorded in the thread. The third party who said "I'll take it", in accordance with the rules, was told he could not have it. The only record in the thread of any offer to buy was by the third party. This caused a lot of ill will and distrust. The people involved were experienced members who definitely knew better, or should have known.

So, in the thread you refer to you state that you were only seeking clarification and if you were too slow then that is ok. Thank you, that is precisely what the admin team would expect and attempt to enforce by the rules. However, there was another member in that thread who sent a PM, and the two of you together triggered me to think something was likely to go wrong, just like in the example above, so I posted another caution.

What you do not know is the other PM did contain an offer, and it was accepted by the seller. You have no idea reading the thread, do you? Now, if you or another member had decided to buy it, and posted "I'll take it" in the thread in the 5 hours before the seller requested it be closed we would have had another furball to contend with precisely like the one mentioned earlier. This is why the caution is posted.

This is just one example of why we need silly rules for everyone to ignore. Here are a few more:

• A recent widow, trying to sell some very expensive tools from her late husband's workshop, was told in emails by an unscrupulous member she should take his lowball offer and consider herself lucky he is so generous. The tools eventually sold for more than ten times the low ball offer.
• Members running silent auctions and selling to the highest bidder, sometimes for a price higher than advertised.
• Likewise, some members offer slightly more than the asking price in a PM to try to get the seller to ignore previous offers.
• Sellers closing sales without saying who they sold to. Ads were run concurrently on gumtree and other sites, the seller took the best offer - but not the first offer for the price asked in the forum.
• Sellers ignoring offers in PMs so they could sell for a pick up and not have to pack and ship as stated in the initial post.
• Sellers selling the same item to multiple members in the background then skipping with the money.
• Buyers reneging on offers and changing their minds, saying the item was not what was promised on the phone or in a PM.

There are dozens of more instances but members must understand there are a few absolute scum out there just waiting to take advantage. There are also some quite genuine and nice members who get caught up in a furball through circumstances seemingly beyond their control. In both instances following the rules minimises the chance of things going wrong. People should never assume that being a member means the person is trustworthy.

Finally, a word on 'offers'.

Sellers are not to run auctions and best offers are just that. Details are typically sent in PMs and members have no idea if the sale is run ethically. Even though auctions are not allowed, a seller MAY state "$500 or best offer". This is clear in the rules:

4. Price. Price must be included, add ONO (Or Nearest Offer) if the price is negotiable. If you are not not sure of a price, add a ballpark figure.

For a buyer, "PM sent with offer" does not protect you from an unscrupulous seller (or buyer) unless the final sale price is posted, along with who it was sold to. I could explain why, but this post is too long already. The basic premise is there can be little to complain about if everything is done in the open where it cannot be questioned.

There is currently a new Market Place being worked on that will completely change the way transactions are done. Will be more along the lines of eBay, but nothing like it.

It is in the final stages of setup now and will :fingerscrossed: hopefully be up and running sometime in the next couple of weeks. This will change the whole buy/sell/swap thing on here for ever and should take away any doubts as to who is buying and for what price etc plus make payments easier and safer for all via PayPal.

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Originally Posted by Groggy

I've only just come across this thread and, as the mod who made the post, I feel I am best placed to answer.

The short answer.
My response was not a rebuke, it was a caution to everyone about the conduct of sales. To get further information a "PM sent seeking clarification" is sufficient. "PM sent" used to indicate someone wanted to buy it but it was too confusing and unclear to other interested parties.

The long answer (for everyone, this response is not aimed at the OP specifically).

First, the rules are there for some very good reasons, we DO NOT invent them for us (admin), they are there to protect those who complain they have been ripped off, gazumped, mislead, ignored, bypassed, lied to, low-balled, baited and switched, defrauded, sold junk, misunderstood etc.

Most people do not read the rules and just post what they see others doing. The mods have no idea who reads what, but we do develop a kind of "sixth sense" after a while for threads in the Market Place that have the potential to go wrong...........


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• Sellers ignoring offers in PMs so they could sell for a pick up and not have to pack and ship as stated in the initial post.

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Greg, Thanks for your insightful reply. You and the other moderators on this great forum do a wonderful job of screening the ordinary members from more garbage than many members would believe. I have seen stuff in other forums I have been involved in both as a moderator and a member that make me really appreciate the work the mods here do.

In my earlier post where I referred to my attempted purchase of an item in the marketplace here: https://www.woodworkforums.com/f221/c...-point-150754/ and the resulting fallout, what the whole experience brought into focus for me was that even though the marketplace is on the woodwork forums, and has a set of rules, the moderators really have no power to enforce the rules. As soon as someone sends a PM, email, or makes a phone or face to face contact, then the transaction is no longer in the thread for all to see.

Even if all transactions Do take place in the thread, the mods still do not have any means of enforcing the rules if the seller and buyer want to be unscrupulous. The one little corner of the woodwork forums called the marketplace probably causes more angst than the rest of the sub-forums put together and we should all thank Neil for allowing such a valuable service to continue, when I am sure he has considered cutting it off more than once.

Groggy mentioned "Sellers ignoring offers in PMs so they could sell for a pick up and not have to pack and ship as stated in the initial post"

The best way I have seen this handled recently, I think it was Grumpy John, selling a panel saw, advertised as pickup only. Someone asked about freighting it somewhere and he said that if they wanted to do that he wanted $250 to dismantle and pack it if they wanted to do something he had not included in the original offer, I think that was very fair as he was indicating that he was prepared to do more than he posted in the original thread if someone was prepared to pay more for doing so. A good compromise.

But the bottom line is that the whole marketplace is based on TRUST and HONESTY. As Greg pointed out just because someone is a member of the forum does not mean that they are honest and trustworthy. I would like to think that if I was dealing with a forum member who has over 1000 posts to his credit and is possibly one of the most active sellers in the marketplace, that I was dealing with a man with a proven track record. Well I was wrong!!!

Interestingly, I have received private communications from members since I linked that thread into this one advising me that they have had problems with THE SAME SELLER. But because they did not have any proof because they negotiated using PM's emails and phone calls THEY DID NOT REPORT IT.

Guys, let the moderators know NOW. I will not pas it on because it was told to me in confidence but the Mods NEED to know this stuff.

If people do not speak up when someone does the wrong thing by you it leaves them free to do it to someone else.

Now there is also the other side of the coin:

I guess I cant say that he was "bad" seller, but I wonder if he thinks I am a "bad" buyer.

I think it was about a year ago, I bought a woodworking book through the marketplace. Once the seller confirmed that I was the successful buyer I sent a PM with my postal address and asking for is bank account details. As I recall it the whole transaction was about $25.00. A week later the book turned up in the post but I never got a return PM with the bank account details. I sent several PM's over a number of weeks and Emails through the forum, and I think from memory I also posted a request in the thread for hism to respond to the pm's, before the mods closed the thread, but I never got any details on how to pay for the item. I did not have a return address on the parcel to send a snail mail asking for details or even to return the article. I feel guilty opening the book as i do not feel that it is rightfully mine even though I have made every reasonable attempt to pay for it. I would appreciate anyones thoughts about that transaction and what you would do

Doug

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Originally Posted by ubeaut

There is currently a new Market Place being worked on that will completely change the way transactions are done. Will be more along the lines of eBay, but nothing like it.

It is in the final stages of setup now and will :fingerscrossed: hopefully be up and running sometime in the next couple of weeks. This will change the whole buy/sell/swap thing on here for ever and should take away any doubts as to who is buying and for what price etc plus make payments easier and safer for all via PayPal.

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Your benevolence is astounding. Thank you, I look forward to seeing the new market place :)

Thanks, Groggy, for a most comprehensive reply to my original question. The procedure you outline is eminently sensible, and should minimize conflicts if it is generally followed.
However, let me return to the advice given in the Rules as posted at the head of the Market forum: (and which I read before posting!)

For the Buyer:
14: Noticed a Problem? etc
I noticed that the age of the machine being offered was not mentioned, and this could affect the price I was prepared to pay. Therefore, as advised by Clause 14, I sought advice 'via a Private Message (PM) to the Seller', and posted that I had sent one.

16: You Want It? When an offer to buy is made, post a 'I'll Take It' in the thread.

I did not make an offer, so only posted that I had sent a PM.

Now I understand that I should have posted 'PM sent for further info', but that was NOT the advice then and STILL given in the Rules.
That was why I originally asked what the Moderators thought that "PM SENT" meant, when that seemed to be what I was advised to do, but the posting of which can seem to lead to confusion. Perhaps clearer advice in the Rules for Buyers might be useful. It's a pity that such seems necessary: all transactions I have had on the Market Forum have been most amicable and satisfactory.

I see your point. The rules have been adjusted to clarify this issue.

14. Noticed a problem? If you think there is something wrong with an item for sale that needs to be clarified, such as price or damage, please do it via a Private Message (PM) to the seller. The seller should then post any further clarification in the thread. The buyer should not post "PM sent" unless he/she details why eg "PM sent to clarify the freight options". "PM sent" by itself confuses people into thinking an offer has been made when it has not.


I don't want to put too much into the rules as people won't read them and the new system will eventually make them redundant anyway.