if you dont believe in global warming sign this

surely with higher temperatures we would get more evaporation, thus more precipitation. Wont do me much good as I require more proteins and fats and get sugar highs from carbs.
What really gets me is that the current boom we are experiencing (albeit with the credit crisis) is being driven by coal and iron ore. and iron ore needs good quality coal to coke. Our present lifestyle, our comfort, is off the back of carbon based resources. The herd, for example, cancelled a concert in Sarina for some ludicrous reason about not wanting to support coal mining, but they wouldn't have had the opportunity to do what they do without it.
I used to believe the talk, but questioning the dogma now is akin to questioning McCarthy in America in 1955.:)

Global warming is a myth , even the pollies and the ultra greenies dont use the term anymore, they now say " climate change" , so before you blindly follow rudd's grand plan for this new tax at least look at the facts
This preposed ETS will cost you more to go to work
Will cost you more every time you turn on any electrical device
Will cost more for every slice of bread you eat

Will not reduce co2 emmisions by 0.01%

and will proberly reduce the standard of living for your children
No one in their right mind is against reducing pollution in any form and this ETS will not reduce any form of pollution, Rudd is trying to push a new tax on australia weeks before the copenhagen convention why , is it so this small man can appear big on the world stage ,
One last thing before the pro lobby gets into me does anyone here fully understand this new tax , how it will be collected , implemented or even how it will be spent :?

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Originally Posted by Ashore

One last thing before the pro lobby gets into me does anyone here fully understand this new tax , how it will be collected , implemented or even how it will be spent :?

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I don't think even the pollies have thoroughly thought it through that far. Yet.

My main concern is that if implemented they'll issue "free permits" to what they class as essential industries, as was done in the EU ETS.

There, the power industries got these "free permits," made record-breaking profits and still raised the prices of power to keep them "in line with what people are paying elsewhere." :~

Somehow, I find it difficult to believe that our crop of pollies will learn from someone else's mistakes, no matter how obvious in hindsight.

You can call it what ever you like - or even argue that it does/doesn't exist but

As a farmer, if the lack of rain, seemingly higher temps are climate change and this is going to continue at this rate then in 30 years Australia will be too hot & dry to live in.

Were the changes on farms to continue at this rate for the next 10 years Ballarat (once regarded as one of the wettest places in Vic will have no town water. You can blame the pollies for not building dams but when you have a dam in every major waterway and they are about 9% full what will more dams do. If you cant get enough rain to fill the ones you have why build more. So to go from a annual 36+ inch rainfall to about 12 to 15 in ten years, in another 10 years we will be desert.

So lets hope that it is weather patterns or climate cycles because if it is climate change, global warming or anything else happening at this rate then we are stuffed and whatever you do/change it will make not one bit of difference.

BTW i bet all these costs/charges etc all have a tax component so how serious are they really - just more revenue for a greedy pack of pollies.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!!

I don't think even the pollies have thoroughly thought it through that far. Yet.

My main concern is that if implemented they'll issue "free permits" to what they class as essential industries, as was done in the EU ETS.

There, the power industries got these "free permits," made record-breaking profits and still raised the prices of power to keep them "in line with what people are paying elsewhere." :~

Somehow, I find it difficult to believe that our crop of pollies will learn from someone else's mistakes, no matter how obvious in hindsight.

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i hadn't heard of these "free permits" If so why does Europe import wood pellets from the US to feed in 10% with coal to make what they clasify as low carbon electricity. They just ignore the energy to make the pellets and to cart them across the atlantic.
I maybe a sceptic but I believe most politicians only concern is to get re-elected.

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I maybe a sceptic but I believe most politicians only concern is to get re-elected

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Well said and the heart of the matter. I remember some interviews with Barnaby Joyce in the early days where he calmly stated that he would at the maximum see two terms in office as the effect of Canberra was corrupting and he didnt want to end up just another piece of apparatchik. Well guess whats happened. This is just a ploy to keep the votes coming. At least he doesnt have the nauseating self righteous pseudo christian posturing of St Steve Fielding.

Most concerning is that these poor gullible people are being fed by the American Republican right. We cant even have our own debate here in Australia, we import their vitriole, tactically and intellectually. There is only one place where the debate rages in such a black and white manner and that is America. But then what can you say of a country where 20% believe evolution is a hoax. For an insight into the tactics watch Sarahs Palin's speeches on healthcare reform. Misleading and innaccurate statements are deliberate. But the climate of insularity it creates ensures a loyal voter base. Very clever really.

Its actually too late to do anything about climate change. Adaption is what is called for now. We may bitch about it here because we have to move but the real affect will be to the people of the Hindus and particularly countries like Bangladesh. As the Himalayas dry up there will be boat people on a scale that not even 1000 John Howards will be able to deal with.

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Originally Posted by glenn k

So what is the general public that knows bugga all supposed to think? What ever the media tell them as usual.

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If I know bugger all about something that's important then I generally tear myself away from my mobile phone or my X-box and get clued up by doing a bit of reading and making use of the internet (its not all and spam).

Clued up people are empowered people.

The debate will rage for years to come. Whether people are responsible for what is happening is one debate, and we may never know the answer to that. My thought is that we may be responsible and therefore we should do whatever is possible to at least slow down our rates of pollution.

The second debate concerns the need to sign and adhere to such things as the Tokyo Protocol and the Copenhagen Agreement. This debate should be very concerning for all of us. One side of that debate is very disconcerting and deals with the possibility of ceding sovereign rights to some amorphous unelected body.

What ever your views on these issues I think that Brnaby Joyce's partition is foolish simply because of its narrow focus and the rather clever play with human nature. I fear many will sign this without any real knowledge or informed opinion.


In terms of squandering our resources it is interesting to note the lack of effective action by politicians of all persuasions on both sides of the pacific.
Take Australia. I read where researchers had developed a superior road sealant to asphalt- tar if you like. This was made from sugar cane. Whatever happened to this? Another example is the process developed at UQ ( I think I remember this correctly ) whereby twice as much energy could be extracted from coal than is presently the case. This would halve the amount of coal used to generate electricity. Has the Government backed this with extra funds and made its application an urgent priority? You know the answer.

Remember when John Howard talked about Australia developing our own alcohol technology? Didn't happen, probably won't happen. There was no need to reinvent the wheel in any case. Brasil has developed this technology and Australia could have simply purchased it from them to fast track its implementation.
Sao Palo in Brasil has decreased air pollution by some 20%-25% over the last 25 years due to the use of fuel alcohol. All new cars sold here must be what they call "Flex" i.e they must be able to run on petrol, alcohol, or gas. They do, and they do it well. The air in Brazilian cities is certainly nicer to breathe
in the 22 years I have been coming back and forth.

Why isn't more emphasis given to solar energy for heating water and producing electricity? All over Turkey, Greece and Spain tis is the case and there are no government subsidies. In Spain certain aspects of solar energy are simply compulsory.

Whatever is done there will be a cost. So why not just get in and do it?

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Whatever is done there will be a cost. So why not just get in and do it?

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A can if worms this one :U

But well said, much of what you say in reference to govts is true. Big business etc is governed by self interest. Some thing the Labour Party has alway insisted on as being a bankable commodity :U

Reminds me of the storey about Tesla who came up with polyphase power ie AC. JP Morgan who was financing his endeavours at the time argued it was a goldmine, when Tesla suggested it could be made free to everyone on the planet.

The bottom line is that vested interest wants control and no competition.

Global warming/climate change is a scam.

I love how the socialists have rebranded themselves "progressive" in a pathetic attempt to kid themselves they are less pig ignorant than the conservatives.

Go ahead and vote up your ets. It'll help not at all and I won't be paying the bills that arise from it.

If you happen to be on reticulated gas have a look at this :

Ceramic Fuel Cells Limited :: BlueGen

Fight pollution, don't be sucked in by the mentalists...

I am unconvinced either way because neither side can be trusted. One thing I am sure of is that global warming/climate change is a great excuse to get money and control/power.

As a last post to this I want to add:

It's undeniable that with the CTS it will cost us at the hip pocket and all businesses will get stung unless they are running off cow dung to generate their power consumption.

Every operational aspect of my day to day running will increase.

And I'll be passing those costs onto my clients, as will every other business - so everything you currently buy or services you pay for will cost more, so living will cost you more - and I doubt that your income will rise accordingly.

Looks like dear old Barnaby has been out in the sun to long again.

The thing is what if? Can we afford to put our heads in the sand and risk sunburnt bums, we should take climate change seriously, stop talking and arguing and take actions.

At the very least if the sceptics are right we should be using our resources sparingly, to go on using resources at the rate we are doing now we won't have to worry, things will take care of them selves as we will have used up all the resources we have.

Then again if climate change is real, with more CO2 in the air the trees may grow quicker and that means mote wood.:)

The "what if" argument has been put many times. It doesn't hold water. What your actually suggesting is imposing a signifignat tax on everyone in the developed world just in case carbon emissions are driving us toward catastrophic climate change. You could apply the same logic to meteor strikes and say everyone should live underground.

If you make a study of the data, as opposed to the models, human driven climate change is not certain.

None of what's been in the media is proper science. There are tremendous vested interests on both sides, and as I've said before a PhD is no garantee of intelligence let alone moral fibre. I know 100's of PhD's, had to work with them for many years. There are some who are smart and who I spend time with voluntarily, but these are the minority.

I find it astounding that people are so willing to impose additional hardship on others barely getting by. Double my electricity bill, no problem I'm financially comfortable. I am well aware however that there are single income families, people on minimum wage etc barely getting by now. Double their energy costs ? I want to be convinced before I support that. What if doesn't cut it, not even close.

It is doubtful that the ETS will make enough of a difference to carbon levels let alone climate change. It will put $ in the pockets of a lot of the same people who brought on the credit collapse and subsequent worldwide recession. Have a good long look at the backgrounds of the people prominent in the pro-ets camp.

While your at it take a good long look at the enviroment movement. They are a mix of thieves and self gratifying morons. Mentalists, not enviromentalists. The first type are out to line thier pockets at anyone's expense that they can manage to con, the latter sit around sipping their late's in their inner city slums complaining about what everyone else is doing, and offering no sensible solutions.

It bewilders me that these people who claim to love nature for the most part not only live as far from it as they can but assume people like me who voluntarily live in the bush want to clear fell everything in sight. I recall well surprising a "greenie" friend years ago. He'd been to a talk by some self righteous moron about how "green" his new house was. I looked over the flyer and pointed out I do 80% of what was on it and among my neighbours we'd account for all of it. 2 key differences, we do it as much because it's cheap as enviromental, and we don't feel compelled to launch a lecture tour to tell everyone how great we are.

If the government are so hell bent on reducing pollution there are plenty of carrot approaches, rather than this universal stick. Ask you federal member why the photovoltaic rebate was killed off then reinstated in it's current form, ask them why they aren't pushing heat pump water heaters ? ask them why bluegen isn't on the rebate list ? (no personal interest just think it's a good idea). There are plenty of ways the government could encourage rollout of lower pollution solution at very low cost to the taxpayer like teh bulk buying schemes that died immediately after the pollies had had their photo ops. Instead we get a tax that's filtered through yet another bureaucracy and the finance industry.

Understand I'm all for reducing pollution.

One more thing before I stop my rant. Data drives models, not the other way round. You don't alter data to fit your model.

:aro-u: 100% :whs: :2tsup: