More Sorry Suggestions

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zed

3) throughout history people have been abducted, not just oz aboriginals. no one said sorry to them. think of the african slaves in the america's

---

They even did it to themselves.

When I worked up on the western side of Cape York, I was told by a couple of the Elders from the area, that years ago tribes from further north used to conduct raiding parties, where they would come down and abduct (stole?) women and young girls and take them back to their own area.

Rest assured the motive for this was more sinister than removing children for their own good.

At the time they seemed to have "gotten over" the fact it used to happen, I dont recall them expecting an apoligy from the Northern people.

One can be forgiven for wondering if this problem as aired of late: ie sexual abuse, drugs, alcohol, and other atrocities against the young children within the aboriginal communities adds new definition to the term grow your own. You would wonder why such a contingent of people turned up to protest against the intervention of Goverment into the Northern Territory. It sure seems that they are unable to sort out the problem themselves.

There are literally many hundreds of these communities through out Australia and if similiar events were taking place in ten percent of them it constitutes a large problem for the KR07 contingent of "we are gunna fix it's".

Well its done. The "Sorry" we were all having opinions about yesterday has been delivered, and methinks there will not be any thing worth writing about occuring during the next year. It remains to seen who was close to factual truth with regard the total of all these things which were given oodles of lipservice today.

I will hazard a guess that it will be less than six months and you will be reading about the area of compensation claim being brought about by free lawers that this particular society has at their disposal.

Regards Mike

Hey, they're our brothers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ironwood

They even did it to themselves.

When I worked up on the western side of Cape York, I was told by a couple of the Elders from the area, that years ago tribes from further north used to conduct raiding parties, where they would come down and abduct (stole?) women and young girls and take them back to their own area.

.

---

Im not being smart here but I thought this was commonish amongst many tribes throughout the world to ensure gene pool diversity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dazzler

Im not being smart here but I thought this was commonish amongst many tribes throughout the world to ensure gene pool diversity.

---

yeah thats what the sociologists call it.. the tribes call it either "stealing the hotties next door" or "revenge for stealing my sister"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dazzler

Im not being smart here but I thought this was commonish amongst many tribes throughout the world to ensure gene pool diversity.

---

Yes, well no dought it helped to alleviate inbreeding.

Though I wonder if that was their intension at the time, probably a mix of reasons perhaps.

Couple of points of interest (facts not my points):

In Perth they did not just turn their back on Nelson but turned of the audio so no-one could here it.

A poll of 13000 people by nine news today showed only 10% supported the appology.

Spoke to all the kids in my class about the apology today then watched it and some interviews of stolen aboriginals on the net. Interestingly, of the seven aboriginal kids in my class, only one of them knew about the apology or said it had been talked about at home, I was actually surprised that they were at school today as I expected them to be with their families.

Well thats done.

Now what?

How badly treated does an aboriginal child need to be tomorrow before being taken to a safe haven?

Will anyone have the courage to step in to protect a young life? Or maybe sorry day will prevent children in aboriginal communities being raped tomorrow?

Interesting that a child, just yesterday was taken from the camp on Paliament grounds in exactly the manner Rudd made his appology for today.

What I cant comprehend is the lack of acknowlegement of the need for child protection to continue regardless of race, he just apologized for every child removed regardless of reason.

My only concern is for the welfare of children past and present. I am very corncerned that with this apology we hurt children rather than make things better for them.

No one wants to hear about the atrocities occuring every week in aboriginal settlements as was evidenced today.

For all the do gooders out there shedding tears of happiness in their latte over todays apology, shed a few for the suffering kids of today and tomorrow.

I watched both Rudd and Nelson give their speeches on television this morning.

My first impression was that Rudd spoke more along the lines of sorry, and this is what I want my government to achieve and this is how I think we can get started.

Nelson I felt was more mired in the past and spent too much of his opportunity in spouting statistics or figures without really coming up with any sort of a roadmap of possible goals or solutions. One of the advantages I suppose of opposition, he has no obligation to come up with ideas or solutions.

I am not surprised that many koori people at various venues turned their backs or more on Nelson. Perhaps it is their way of illustrating a belief that the speaker has no credibility in their eyes when it comes to aboriginal affairs and that they would rather he just didn't say anything? I think that no matter who the leader of the opposition might be, they were always going to suffer a credibility problem given the continued and insistent refusal of Howard to do what Rudd just did.

I watched the speeches with several koori and others who work daily with those koori who come to the attention of the legal system and they all stated that Nelson had absolutely no credibility as he represented a body that had 11 years to take action and only recently found that there seemed to be a problem and put in place an interventionist programme. To them, the perception is that the NT intervention has been a critical imperative just because of the then fast approaching election.

One made the point that the policy that was the subject of todays events was itself originally described as an "interventionist programme". I won't be around to see it but in around 2108 it would be very interesting to see how history and society view the results of this point in time

We whites can justify anything without even trying. All we have to do now is point out how 'good' we were to rip children from the arms of loving parents and dump them into totally foreign white families, farms, work stations and how we did them sooooo much good. So there were some parents who were bad parents (whites never have these problems of course) because WE introduced them to alcahol, forced them to adopt our cultures (thats a laugh with all our problems) deny their own culture, language etc. We gave them nothing, forced everything on them. We did not arrive peacefully, we invaded and murdered, raped and stole. Today's white generation benefitted from all of this, Aboriginals still suffer. Imagine it was only in the 60s that we had a referendum to 'allow' Aboriginals become part of Australia. In the 60s! Their own country. The treatment when they returned from war! Not even allowed into pubs...and of course whites can go into pubs as when they get drunk they behave so much better!!! Whites do not beat up their wives in the streets, they go behind closed doors! I am saying sorry not for what I did but for what has been done in my name. I am truly sorry that this group of Australians were treated as second class citizens. And as for the amounts of money given, it was once said "If the govt stopped giving money to Aborigines, 10,000 whites would be on the dole line". In the 1930's New Zealand schools were teaching Maori history, culture etc. 2008 and we can say single words in Italian, Greek, Spanish etc. Not one word in any Aboriginal language I will bet. Most who would deny the Sorry would also deny any kind of respect/acknowledgement for their culture, history etc. Yet we willing give this to migrants. We know more about the cultures of migrants than we do about Aborigines. Oh yes. We can justify our actions by pointing fingers and showing how 'generous' we have been. What is the definition of 'mean spirited?'

I agree with Kevin Rudd apologising to the Aboriginal people.

Our previous Prime Minister stated on numerous occasions that because the atrocities happened in the past that there is no need to say sorry.

Many terrible things have happened in the past including WW1, WW2, the murdering of Jews, the current slaughter of Palestinians .....

Some conservatives feel that we should be sorry and hold annual ceromonies for some of these horrible events but not for others.

I cannot differentiate between these atrocities and I feel that we should be sorry for the lot of them, not just the ones for whites or just for the atrocities committed against our allies. How can you shed a tear on Anzac day and at the same time say stuff the Aboriginal people?

Holding back on apologies for economic reasons (they might seek compensation) under the guise of it happened in the past is shallow thinking and not ethical.

Some of the greatest examples of how to live and how to treat the land has been demonstrated to me first hand by Aboriginal people.

I am not proud of the way the Aboriginal culture has been severely eroded, I am not proud of the state of health of Aboriginal people, nor am I proud of Aboriginal kids being taken away from their communites and brought up with European values.

My vocal support for the Aboriginal people in the past has had me labelled as an "Abbo Lover" by racists and conservatives possibly as an attempt to scare me into becoming a racist moron. It hasn't worked.

The usual response to my fondness of the Aboriginal people is that I haven't seen drunken and violent Aboriginal people. I have seen my fair share of drunken and violent people both European and Aboriginal. I have been robbed and assaulted by both.

Today was great day in the history of Australia.

For those who have a different view I feel sorry for you.

Why isn't someone setting up kangaroo meatworks and tanneries in the bush. And crocodile tanneries too. That is an earner. :oo:[/quote]

It is being done up here in the NT ,at least crocodile farms on remote communities .
Trouble is getting the workers to turn up for work on a regular basis ,its left to a few caucasians to do the work ,when they get disheartened they leave and the whole business falls in a heap .
There is and has been a few of successful outcomes , but the failures far outweigh the successes,and the financial costs are enormous.
I've seen it time and time again on many communities that I've worked at.
hundreds of thousands of dollars poured into community projects to get some sort of employment going ,to give a sense of worth and self determination ,only to be abandoned months later and the whole project turn into crumbling ruins.

I spent 12 1/2 years travelling around the Northern Territory carrying out maintenance on community power stations ,some time spending two or three weeks at time in one community.
I know what goes on in these places ,I've seen it first hand and don't have to read books or newspapers to find out.
I't won't matter how much money gets poured into these places ,the outcome will be the same .

Kev

I agree with you Kev which suggests that pouring only money towards a solution hasn't worked in the past and probably won't work in the future.

If I lost all my pride and if I thought I had no future then I too would probably act in a negative way. If you gave me money I would probably spend it on alcohol - so what if I was constantly drunk, it would be preferable to facing the bleak hopeless future. This response is not unique to Aboriginal people.

Helping me regain my pride and then giving me money would most likely lead to a different outcome.

I don't think anybody has an immediate solution to the problem however the majority of people (including both white and Aboriginal people) feel that there is a terrible problem that must be fixed.

Recognising past mistakes and not repeating them might point to a solution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wood Borer

For those who have a different view I fell sorry for you.

---

Please dont feel sorry for me woodborer. I would rather you try to understand why it is that I have this viewpoint.

I accept your views totally. I have an analytical mind. Perhaps that makes me a lot less compassionate than others.

I like to deal with facts, not feelings, which is probably where it comes from.

What is interesting is that many who embrace the apology label anyone who doesnt in a negative light and even stoop to offensive language and as in the case yesterday turning thier backs on the speaker.

In a nutshell I am in favour of an apology and reparation where its appropriate, and as yet those who are owed an apology have not been correctly identified. The bringing them home report, whilst a sad, terrible, embarrassing inditement on the issue, is a flawed document. It is flawed because people had thier stories listened and recorded but then no investigation into why they were taken in the first place.

Yesterday was a classic example. Both leaders quoted sad stories of children being taken from thier mothers. Both heartrenching. However the basis for thier removal was not explained so its not in context. Sad absolutley, warranted due to welfare issues, god knows because we are not told. Nelsons story was of a young child living with her father in a tent on the outskirts of Tennant Creek. Was she going to school. What family support did she have? She may have been taken just because she of here race/colour or lack thereof, but we dont know. Mum was taken from her mother by welfare a number of times and it was justified. Her Mum was a drunken hag. Had a chat to mum last night and she said that she had been talking to her sisters last night.

Mum comes from a family of 15 kids. Six are from one father, two from another, six from another and one from the the first sixs fathers brother. There is aboriginal lineage in the first six and in the single one. My uncles and aunts are very mixed in colour, some obviously aboriginal, many not. Mums Grandmother was a European Gypsy so was dark as well. Mum said they were always running from welfare. They would see a new model car coming (they lived in very poor parts of town) and mum would tell them to run. Most times they would get away while welfare checked on them. Occassionally some of the kids would get taken into care for a period. Mum went to at least 30 different primary schools and never got to go to high school as she was kept at home to care for the young children. This left her vulnerable to advances from drunken men that would be there when her mum was 'entertaining'. Not a very healthy environment for a young girl and she was sexually assaulted at least once and when she told her mother she was beaten for 'lying'.

Mum left when she was 16 by getting pregnant and luckily getting married. Mum said that she wishes to god that she had been taken by welfare. Two of her sisters agree. She was in foster care for a short period. Some of the younger ones were taken and fostered out. Overall they turned out pretty good. No rhodes scholars but generally have made a good go of life.

I have removed a lot of children from mothers and fathers, particularly in Tasmania from 2002 to 2007, and every one was a sad affair where we were pulling them out of parents arms, wrestling them away and locking them in the back of our cars. Most were genuine welfare cases but some didnt seem so. I also helped deport an afghani family from launceston and it made me feel sick at the time.

So dont feel sorry for me, just make a small attempt to understand why I think the way I do. :)

If you do a search ( 26/08/1999 John Howard ) it comes up with an interesting read. :B

I believe that Rod in post #218 has made a good comment and one which is very close to reality with regard the most precious of all, the children.

Regards Mike