Basic home wiring

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Originally Posted by silentC

it isn't necessarily obvious that introducing a DIY license, or removing the legislation altogether is going to make it any better. You have to show that the two are related, and no one has done that yet (not here anyway). It doesn't necessarily follow that because the stats show a bad saftey record that the 'reason' given by the electrical authorities is not valid and it certainly doesn't imply that they should just delete the legislation and open it up to anyone with a red handled Stanley screwdriver.

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Its a bit like trying to prove a null hypothesis - it cant be done, you can only disprove a positive one - while its perfectly legitimate to use logic to expect that more rules equal greater safety, when the information to support the case shows the opposite, you need to examine the logic of the assumption.

Taking away the restrictions probably wont improve safety (although its possible they could), so youre right, it doesnt necessarily follow, but I'm not sure if anyones claimed that withdrawing all restrictions will reduce the electrocution rate - it just seems that prima facie, the restrictions have offered us no advantage for safety compared to our peers (similarly the US gets no benefit from their 110v experiment - the extra current more than makes up for the voltage, particularly in house fires).

The classic example in this thread (the one you couldnt kill with a stick), is that even running your own cables for the sparky to connect and check is illegal - LOL that ones funny, especially considering you can change an appliance plug! dont we all love beaurocracy!

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Originally Posted by MurrayD99

Ahhhh... Mr Outback, you been away a while? Is this related to the concept that the Highway Patrol is interfering with natural selection? I think, on balance, it probably is. Is this esoteric, v the 11KVA thread? No. I think not. Wo ist Benny? Got a view here? Is the term not yet ended?

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Just observing, have put forward my point of view, argue all we like but there are some diyers out there who need to wake up before their woken up by an example of V=IR. Common sense rules and some missed out on that issue in the gene pool.

Anyway this is a friday thread alternative:D :D :D :D

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Originally Posted by pharmaboy2

(similarly the US gets no benefit from their 110v experiment - the extra current more than makes up for the voltage, particularly in house fires).

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I agree that we get no particular benefit, but I would hardly class it as an experiment at this stage. We couldn't change now if we wanted to--too expensive. :eek:

Benny, glad to see you back in the fray. :D :D

WE have a vacancy at the moment for a self motivated diyer to experiment with some wiring. It's the Pommy cricket team, I think they need a bit of a rewire and a surge of current? Any ideas as everything else has failed?

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Originally Posted by silentC

There are two observations to make here. One is that it is obviously possible, even probable, that the 'true' intention of the legislation is to create a closed shop. I don't know and you probably don't either. It's just speculation, much as we all love a good conspiracy theory.

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I suspect we do know why the legislation is the way it is - to keep a closed shop:)

I base my suspicion on a email and telephone conversation I've had with the Victorian OCEI sometime ago. I wanted to see if I could get a license that would allow me to legally do wiring at my own home. [I'm talking fairly basic stuff here and I do not have any intention of replacing anytime prior to the switchboard.]. I emailed the OCEI to inquire about an "occupier's license" [which is a license intended for engineers that would allow them to do work only on their own residence]. I'm an electrical engineer and work as a electrical engineer so I've got a bit of an idea about electricity. I'm happy to do any reasonable training and course work required to get an occupier's license so I asked what was required. I received an answer by telephone and it was a bit like a conversation out of "Yes, Minister!". It seemed that I'd need to sit the appropriate exams on AS3000 (no real drama there) and I'd also have to do 80 hours supervised work with an licensed electrician (no problem at my end). Okay, so far sounds promising, then came the "But". I cannot recall the details exactly, but to do the supervised work I'd have to have an S-permit (okay, no problem) and then I'd have to have a supervised workers license but to get a supervised workers license I'd have to be formally employed an an apprentice. The exact conversation is hazy, but the bottom line was that the only way to get a license is via an apprenticeship - there was no other way.

I know there are some here how would argue that it would take four years to learn the practical aspects of the trade, just like it took me four years to become an engineer. But if I fronted up to an engineering course and I'd already done a similar course, most institutes would allow exemptions on the common material covered in the different courses. I think I should be allowed to meet the the electrical wiring license requirements in less than 4 years.

Also, it doesn't seem reasonable that overseas qualified electricians need to do a whole 4-years again to meet Australian regulations.

The workforce is now fairly dynamic. Not only do people change jobs more often, they also change careers. The trades should be open for older people to take up later in life.

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Originally Posted by silentC

The second is that even though the stats may show that our record on safety isn't a great one, it isn't necessarily obvious that introducing a DIY license, or removing the legislation altogether is going to make it any better. You have to show that the two are related, and no one has done that yet (not here anyway). It doesn't necessarily follow that because the stats show a bad saftey record that the 'reason' given by the electrical authorities is not valid and it certainly doesn't imply that they should just delete the legislation and open it up to anyone with a red handled Stanley screwdriver.

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I accept your point to a degree. My issue is that safety is used to justify the closed shop regulations. Judging by some of the responses in this thread the safety propaganda machine is doing a very good job!

I'm not proposing a free-for-all in regard to wiring. I think if someone can demonstrate the required knowledge of the regulations and practical skills required, why can't they obtain a license?

I'd like to see the the regulations changed, but how does one go about it? [I doubt it would do any good talking to the OCEI - it'd be like complaining about a real estate agent to the REIV!]. Does anyone have experience with having regulations changed?

Chris

[And who are those people chatting in the background of this thread:confused:]

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I think if someone can demonstrate the required knowledge of the regulations and practical skills required, why can't they obtain a license?

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I agree with that. I think you should be able to. If it was available, I would have done it myself years ago. Same with plumbing. If you can demonstrate that you know what you are doing, you should be able to get a permit or a license for your own domestic work.

It does open up some problem areas though. I'll repeat what I said earlier about the owner builder course that I did. There is no way on Earth that one of those courses gives you the knowledge you need to build a house. You learn just enough to pass the multiple choice test and get the rubber stamp. I'd shudder to think that anyone who does one of those courses and having had no prior exposure to building would walk away thinking they are equipped to build a house. They still rely upon inspections to make sure things have been done correctly. The whole OB thing was just concocted so that there would be a legal scapegoat when shoddy work is done. The whole thing is half-arsed and it doesn't necessarily improve the quality of the work at all.

If there are people who cannot intuitively wire up a new power point or light without having to ask how to do it, what hope do they have of learning enough to wire up their house in any kind of course. The benefit of the apprenticeship programme is that they get on the job experience with a qualified person showing them how it should be done and smacking them over the head when they get it wrong. Some people learn well from books and others need to have the information belted into them.

They could make the test really difficult and have some practical elements to it. That might help. But then how much do you really need to know to wire up a few points? Do you have different levels of permit, or make everyone go the whole hog?

Do they have that sort of system in the UK/US or is it just open slather for home owners?

I'm pretty much in agreement with you for the most part Chris, but I'm not sure about the OCEI manipulating the scenario and licence structure to make it a "closed shop". (That sounds more like a union related issue to me)
I think the OCEI takes the stance that there must be a cut-off point somewhere and so they basicaly put forth that only an A-grade can do such-and-such work, and the only way to get an A-grade is through an apprenticeship to cover any grey areas that might arise.

A good call to get the regulations changed, but good luck in doing it! I for one would prefer to see the licencing system split into a different classs structure...
1) Industrial
2) Public domestic/commercial
3) Private home installation

There's massive differences in industrial and domestic wiring, and I've worked with contractors who are wizzes in domestic, but fail badly in industry and vice-versa. I for one struggle putting power points in because it's not my usual work (Happily, I don't do many outlets...!). Give me a complex 3 phase machine with inverter drives and plc/computer control and I'll breeze through the majority of work on it. It's all in the training and the practice.
When I did my apprenticeship and sat the prac exam, I struggled with the board job (from memory, a gpo, a light and a 2 way circuit) while others creamed it in with time to spare. When it came to the face-plate starter and the motor control part of the exam, I was first out the door while the domestic faction were scratching their heads.

As another example for license enigmas... My ticket allows me to work on live equipment up to 1kV (I think it's 1Kv, but it might still be at 600V) but I can't wire up a telephone circuit because I'm not Austel licenced. I'm also unable to contract out, earn any extra cash from my profession or help a mate with his house wiring for a slab. "Not authorised to contract for profit or reward" is the fine print. So, I'm limited in work in my chosen profession and legally, can only do electrical work for the company I'm working for.

Yes, the licence system needs a shake-up, but I'm not sure how best to do it.

Hi Malibu,
What is the idea behind them not letting you contract out:confused: .

Is that part of your license, or your employment contract?

Vernonv,

I could be wrong, but in Victoria not only do you have to have a trade certificate (such as an "A-grade" license), to charge money for your (electrical) trade you also have to be a R.E.C. (Registered Electrical Contractor).

You don't have to have a R.E.C. if you work for someone else.

Chris

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Originally Posted by chrisp

Vernonv,

I could be wrong, but in Victoria not only do you have to have a trade certificate (such as an "A-grade" license), to charge money for your (electrical) trade you also have to be a R.E.C. (Registered Electrical Contractor).

You don't have to have a R.E.C. if you work for someone else.

Chris

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Same as in Qld as far as I know.

Mick

You're right Chris, it's an A-grade first, then sit for a contractors ticket. From what I can gather, the REC course is 90% business studies/paper work and the remainder is electricaly related.
I don't know the reason behind the concept, but there's a few possabilities:
- The closed shop theory
- A money spinner for the OCEI
(A-grade costs are $130 for 5 years, not sure about an REC, but probably more)
- Control and regulation of contractors
I suspect the later, but at the end of the day, we all have to put in the same certificate of complience, it's just that a contractor has another number to add to the system.

Coincidentaly, my Energy Safe magazine landed today. There were 6 prosecutions over the last month.
1 company for dodgy work
1 inspector for passing dodgy work
4 unlicenced people doing work and/or installing faulty equipment.
One of the fines was $13,000...

Total of prosecutions this year is up to 68

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Originally Posted by Vernonv

Hi Malibu,
What is the idea behind them not letting you contract out:confused: .

Is that part of your license, or your employment contract?

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Things may have changed here in NSW but a few years ago a licenced electricion or an electrical engineer or any one with an electrical training background could wire their own home and bear in mind back then every electrical job had to have a ready for test put into the local county council and no work could be connected to the supply until an inspector came out to authorise the electrical work.

Although all work has to be submitted to the local electrical authority it does not mean they will inspect every job now. They usually inspect jobs at random to make checks on the various contractors and if it is not up to standard he will get a defect and the more defects he gets the more inspections he will get at the risk of losing his contractors licence but the Electrical Contractor has the authority to connect the work to the supply.

Licenced electritions, engineers etc. can not hire themselves out without having a a Electrical Contractors Licence which is separate from being a licenced electrition who can only do work for an Electrical Contractor or for a company that has an Electrical Contractor in their employ.

Like most trades now they have to earn a 100 points each year by doing followup courses and trade nights etc. or their licence is on the line.

This point system has just been introduced for fridge mechanics and air conditioning contractors and has been in place for quiet some time for licenced builders and I dare say for plumbers and gas fitters as well

I think the contracting ticket carries with it a fairly bit chunk of liability insurance.

Anyone wishing to know more about the standards would be better off getting hold of AS/NZS 3018:2001 "Electrical Installations-Domestic Installations". AS/NZS3000:2000 is a lot harder to get a concrete answer from since its review IMO.

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Originally Posted by chrisp

I'd like to see the the regulations changed, but how does one go about it?

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As these regulations have been issued by the responsible Minister under an Act of Parliament the way to change it is very simple indeeed.

Just convince your local member that they ought to change the regulations and then have him/her convince the government party that they ought to be changed.

Then the responsible minister will widely consult all sections of the community that may be affected by the change and may be he will instruct the parliamentary draftsmen to rewrite the regulations which he may approve.

If he does it will become law else it is back to the beginning of this thread. Rather elementary really but this process could take a lifetime of lobbying.:D


Peter.

that REC thing is probably to keep track of everyone. it's pretty hard to keep tabs on a guy with a van and a mobile phone if he doesn't want to be found.

they're also supposed to have $1 million [i think] in liability insurance

there is also apparently some loop with the rec ticket, you don't have to be a sparky to get it. eg, your gran can get the contracting licence for the business which comprises solely of you [and her i guess.]

thats how most industrial places go about it though, the contracting ticket is in the company or the owners name, rather than that of a sparky.

there is also [again, apparently, it has come up in discussion at work] a provision for licenced sparkies to do work without a contractor's ticket but the income is limited. it is intended for those who do mate's houses and such.