Future of the Australian Electricity Market

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Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Thanks Mr.B


I have pointed out in the past that some idea of voltage can be gleaned from the distance the three phases are apart. Similar clearances apply downwards and this must be to the top of the tallest machinery. I hadn't realised there was a two tier system for machinery.

When I first did my training, quite a while back last century :rolleyes:, we were told of a farmer who complained that he was getting electrical shocks from the overhead transmission lines. When it was investigated, it turned out that he had bought a new state-of-the-art tractor that was large enough with the air-conditioned cab to come inside the safety clearances and he was experiencing electric shock from induced voltage. It may have been safe while he was still in the tractor, but not so good if he decided to exit while under the lines.

Regards
Paul

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Good point re. phase spacing. The rules around entry to substations where you may be working around overhead conductors now comprise a training manual about an inch thick. I had to renew the certification every year, for each utility I did work for. The rules just got stricter and stricter every year, including compulsory arc-flash rated clothing for everyone working anywhere on their network, just because one guy somewhere was burned in a flashover accident. The arc-flash rated clothing is so heavy and hot, it was more likely to cause deaths from heat stroke in summer than anything else. A lot of things you don't regard as conducting can become so at very high voltages - e.g. when working with 6m lengths of plastic conduit anywhere near high voltage conductors you had to keep them completely below waist height at all times, with an observer keeping an eye on you as well. Scary times.

I used to train Optus staff in using the cable locater to find the tracer tape on fibre optic cables - that was always entertaining. As for damage to property, it was well known that Leightons needed to have a guy with a cheque book following closely behind their work crews to placate the locals. Between wrecking gates, cutting fences, hitting existing services, and chewing up paddocks......there were plenty of cheques to be written. I can still picture that paddock with the Pattersons Curse sown into it by the contractors - absolutely spectacular - and that stuff is a devil to get rid of completely once it has been introduced. Seed can lie dormant for some time, then one year you've got purple again everywhere.

The NSW electricity system has slightly different rules to QLD. When I worked in the NSW system at Liddell, a dim and distant memory which time has almost healed, we had to go into the switchyards and "prove dead" on the 330KV lines we were isolating. This was done with a shepherd's hook mounted on a voltage detector. Under this contraption was an extension of varnished timber sticks each about 1 meter long. For 330KV it required four extensions above the handle. Firstly, we tested the device on a live line to make sure it was working by touching the hook onto the line (a red light lit up) and then we checked the disconnected line. Then it was back to the live line to check the integrity of the meter again. Finally, the hook was hung on the dead line to remind us which one to isolate. Isolating a live line, as I don't have to tell you, is a very bad mistake!

Up in QLD I don't have to do those tasks and I don't miss them at all.

Regards
Paul

Eeeek - rather you than me. Even the buzzing and crackling from 330kV conductors and insulators on a humid foggy morning was pretty disconcerting. There were some older Ausgrid low voltage switchyards in Sydney that were so ancient they didn't conform to modern clearance standards, and were basically regarded as complete "no go" areas. Live conductors literally 2 feet above your head. They took us all to see one of these during training one year, but it was strictly a case of just looking at it from outside the compound fence.

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Originally Posted by Mr Brush

Eeeek - rather you than me. Even the buzzing and crackling from 330kV conductors and insulators on a humid foggy morning was pretty disconcerting. There were some older Ausgrid low voltage switchyards in Sydney that were so ancient they didn't conform to modern clearance standards, and were basically regarded as complete "no go" areas. Live conductors literally 2 feet above your head. They took us all to see one of these during training one year, but it was strictly a case of just looking at it from outside the compound fence.

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Mr.B

Actually, a dewy or misty morning with the conductors protesting with their crackles was usually deemed sufficient to not perform any switching let alone "proving dead.". I think the clearances, since the time to which I am referring, have probably increased from 4 meters. I can only remember having to do this once or twice. As you can see, I lived to tell the tale.

Regards
Paul

Reminds me of some advice given by our Electrical Engineering lecturer at Uni... "If you can't see it on an oscilloscope it doesn't exist, and if it's over 12V keep your hands in your pockets" - correct at the time (in terms of frequency and voltage) for those of us doing the light current/digital stream anyway. I think out of a class of 30 only 2 chose the heavy current/motors and machines option, but I bet they were never out of work after graduation ! I rapidly left the electrical stuff behind, got into fibre optics for an M.Sc. by research, and have basically been a "Photonic Engineer" for most of the past 35 years.

Victoria is putting in a 600MWh battery to be operational by 2025 at a cost of $245m:
‘One of the world’s largest’: battery farm to be the first project funded by Victoria’s resurrected electricity agency | Energy | The Guardian

So, if the following holds true:
(say) 18 months construction time for the battery
Comes in on budget at $245m
Snowy Hydro 2.0 costs $15b:rotfl:
SH 2.0 is completed by 2030 :rotfl:

then the Feds could put in 61 of those batteries which would supply 36,600MW spread out over 61 locations.
Obviously they couldn't all be completed in the next 18 months, and I'm sure that budgeting for SH 2.0 will be spread out over however many years.

How much power is SH 2.0 supposed to deliver? I'm reading 2,200MW, but someone might want to check my figures.
If my figures are right then those batteries (which don't get bogged inside a mountain) would supply 16.6x the power of SH 2.0 for the same money, and be completed in significantly less time, with the added benefit of being placed around the country.

Am I missing something here?

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Am I missing something here?

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Possibly a large amount of waste battery product to be disposed of safely when the big battery reaches end of life?

Batteries are able to supply that power for several hours but SH 2 will for several days.

Quoting figures of MW instead of MWH in the context of a battery is the sort of thing polys do when they make pre-election promises, and we all know what that is worth.

Plus, pollies would prefer one BIG project to go stand in front of for photo opportunities a la Scotty from Marketing, rather than have to travel around to multiple smaller (and frankly, not as visually exciting) projects around the country. There would also be significant costs involved in transporting all those extra people who have to stand in shot behind the chief polly and nod their heads knowingly in response to every inane utterance. As an aside, I speculate that there may be a position in political circles referred to internally as a "nodder"? Happens all too often on the TV news. :D

Sorry, I've come over all cynical all of a sudden. I'll have to go lie down for a bit.

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Originally Posted by Bohdan

is the sort of thing polys do when they make pre-election promises, and we all know what that is worth.

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Hey - where's my Very Fast Train??? And my personal jetpack, come to that????

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Originally Posted by Mr Brush

As an aside, I speculate that there may be a position in political circles referred to internally as a "nodder"? Happens all too often on the TV news. :D

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I seem to recall that "noddies" were first identified in the background of some of Bob Hawke's speeches.

Who do they think they're kidding? Surely most people have noticed this by now? Can't front the cameras without at least 2-3 noddies in support....lol

FWIW The Tesla CyberTruck has been officially released in the US (although no right hand drive models currently available)
So far only several hundred are available for delivery compared to the millions that have been ordered.
The release means we can finally see official pricing and specs.

There are 3 models
Single Motor Rear wheel drive US$50k
Dual motor All wheel drive US$69k
Trimotor CyberBeast US$96k (0-60 mph 2.6s)

For homeowners, tradies and campers the auxiliary 240V power output specs are of interest.
Up to 11.5kW of continuous 240V power will be available from the battery for use from sockets inside the cabin and at the rear of the cargo tray.
Attachment 532942
For more details look here https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck
Unfortunately right hand drive models not expected until 2025.