breaking covid rules

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Originally Posted by Warb

Here's the problem. Governments are stupid, and they stupidly believe that people will "do the right thing". That's why the Sydney lockdown was not a "ring of steel" - the government believed that people were clever/sensible enough to see , and abide by, the "spirit of the law". But people aren't. People (not all, but many) are selfish and, dare I say it, lazy. They did what suited them, in the case of the vaccination it was "nothing", and in the case of the lockdown it was "whatever they wanted to". So nobody got vaccinated, and the virus spread. Now, when the truth starts to dawn on them, they blame the government, the doctors, the pharmacists, or anyone else that they can think of to avoid admitting that their own actions, or lack of actions, have landed them in a bad situation. In my area we now have covid. And guess where it started? At a petrol station, brought in by someone from Sydney travelling when they should have been locked down.

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If common sense was indeed common, there would be no need for most of the laws that exist. But as people get stupider, stupid governments seem to think that making more stupid laws will fix the problem. the real problem is that governments and law enforcement agencies have become extremely selective about which laws they enforce. They concentrate on things that can be pretty-much automated - speed/red light cameras and breathalyzers because they are easy to catch and fines/convictions are pretty much indefensible. Yet equally dangerous behavior such as tailgating or failure to give way, is largely ignored. You rarely see a police vehicle pull over a driver for a traffic infringement any more. I doubt that more than one Melbourne driver in 20 even knows the correct rules for right of way when changing lanes. Too many people now ignore or don't even know the rules that are not actively enforced. Lockdown laws are not being enforced to a sufficient degree to ensure anywhere near satisfactory compliance.

I recall that when Melbourne's first lockdown was called last year, they gave 48 hours notice that the lockdown was going to happen. Thousands of people went online to change their addresses online on their drivers licenses to locations in Rural Victoria and fled Melbourne to escape the lockdown, many of them taking the infection to the rural areas. They did ANYTHING that they could to avoid lockdowns designed for the safety of he community.

Our four-month lockdown did not end until people started to realize that if they did not obey the restrictions we would never get out of it. From where I sit, people in Sydney still have not reached that point. Having their Premier tell them that they are under the toughest lockdown any community in Australia had experienced when it was, and still is not, as harsh as Melbourne went through for months certainly does not help the matter and only adds to community frustration when they are told that conditions will have to get tougher still.

I rarely have anything nice to say about the Premier of Victoria, but he did well when he called Lockdown 6. He gave only 3 hours notice and locked down the whole state - thereby stopping the exodus of people into Rural Victoria, as that would be locked down too. But then after a week, he opened up the rural areas and immediately all the roads out of Melbourne were filled with car towing caravans, camping trailers and carrying gear for extended stays at holiday homes or friends places. All those people who fled were still supposed to be under the 5km radius rule but once they got out of Melbourne they were "free". Too many Melbournites either never learned the lessons of the four-month lockdown or have forgotten already.

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With regards to lockdown rules, seems like everyone can make their own.
I live inside a reasonably large lga. Recently I received in the mail a cheque from rms.
Why it wasn't direct deposited to my bank??? Who knows.
This necessitated a trip to the bank. Our local bank closed several months ago. So next closest bank is approximately 30Km away, but still within my lga. There are closer banks, but outside my lga and further than 5Km from home.
Arrived at bank, no covid security other than qr checkin. Promptly told by teller I should have waited until lockdown finished to come in and make the deposite. No problem I said, if your bank waives any overdraw penalties. Nope.
But other establishments have tight covid security, and avidly check qr checkin.
Places are very quiet, except for takeaways...

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Originally Posted by BobL

One thing I haven't heard that much about is the complete mess of the Australian vaccines roll out. I'm thinking of the manipulation of the roll out by various forces, especially the Govt and possibly even people like the AMA. ...

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I had my final phizer shot in early June: what a shemozzle!

My GP's clinic is not doing covid vax, and referred me to the state government program.
First: I had to find the enrolment pages on an extremely difficult to navigate website,
Second: I had to complete an online enrolment form, including a medical history,
Third: I had to find the clinic; it actually was in the bar of a closed hotel,
Fourth: I had to complete the medical history again, and wait about half an hour past my appointment time,
Fifth: I had my shot - took 20 seconds,
Sixth: Then I had to wait 15 minutes for "side effects" - sound practice,
Then I went home and waited 3 weeks for second shot.

Each time I attended there were about 12 staff members present, doing the check in, supervising the waiting queue, supervising the after effects waiting, but only two peolple actually doing the vaccinations. Engage a few more vaccinators and the throghput could easily have been raised by a factor of five or six.

But blind Freddy does not work for Health Tasmania.

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... SWMBO's GP told her she'd be better off going to a mass vaccination clinic as they were booked solid with priority cases. ...

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Many GPs down here are refusing to give covid vaxs as "Health" - not sure if its state health or federal health - are insisting that they do an eight hour attending or online course on how to give a covid vax. Most feel insulted and have declined.

A GP friend was "bludgeoned" into attending by his large practice - "someone has to do it" - and he describes the course as a total waste of time and worse than anticipated. He says that the only thing he learned is why covid vax comes in ten shot vials - all other vax vials are single shot. The reason is simply that the international glass industry could not gear up fast enough to produce the hundreds of millions of little glass bottles required. By going multishot they reduced the number of vials required by 90%. They will probably start producing single shot vials in 2023 or 2024.

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... My suspicion is the govt hoped the way they set it up would gain them more kudos/power, and the AMA hoped it would generate more "MONEY" and perhaps control for their members. ...

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Probably true, but then they still managed to shoot themselves in the foot. For 100 years the AMA opposed nurses being able to administer injections. SWMBO is a RN and for the first 10+ years of her career registered nurses were not permitted to administer injections - "only doctor can".

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... As has been said many times - shoulda given it to the local school tuck shop ladies.

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Too sensible.

A fair criticism from post #133, but my wife and I had out shots (AZ) on the very first day we were eligible. Same with the three kids. Very first day.

The probabilities of adverse immunisation reactions are meaningless and not worth consideration. The probabilities of complications of COVID are vast.

I've been shouting about this disease since Dec '19. I saw the initial outbreak and said to all who would listen that "this will be a thing" but I was written off as a conspiracy nutter. I personally believe that its going to get 100 times worse before it gets better. (OK, I might be a bit nuts....) :)

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Originally Posted by Warb

Overall, however, at this time I agree. We should be using any available facility to inject everyone who is willing. Those who are not willing should go to the back of the queue for both "mind changes" and also treatment if they should get the disease....

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On this, I saw one German(?) pollie posit an idea.... "No immunisation? You pay full price for your subsequent care."

I like this idea.

If some anti-vax nutter, right-wing nutter, hyper-Christian nutter or some other anti-gov crusader decides its their "right" to get infected with COVID, fine, but let them pay the full price of admission!

That's if they make it.... maybe their estate can pay otherwise....

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Originally Posted by woodPixel

... The probabilities of adverse immunisation reactions are meaningless and not worth consideration. The probabilities of complications of COVID are vast.

... If some anti-vax nutter, right-wing nutter, hyper-Christian nutter or some other anti-gov crusader decides its their "right" to get infected with COVID, fine, but let them pay the full price of admission! ...

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No; they do not have the right to infect you, or me or the kids down the street.

Another approach that is working.
A favourite niece is an RN in a very large hospital that was right in the front line of the battle - many covid patients, many infected staff, many staff in covid quarantine, very major staff shortages, very excessive shifts, exhaustion, barrier nursing, PPE, etc. Medical Superintendent arraged for early vaccination of all staff and obtained sufficient phizer and A-Z. Pharmacy staff were vaccinated on day 1 (they warehoused the vax) and virtually all professional staff were very quickly done - doctors, nurses, nutritionists, physiotherapists, OTs, psychologists, etc. There were a lot of hold outs amoung support staff - orderlies, cleaners, kitchen, etc. Then the MedSup introduced daily testing for non-vaccinated staff at the start of every shift. A very unpleasant proceedure with a swab about 50mm up a nostril. Now most staff are vaccinated.

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Originally Posted by woodPixel

If some anti-vax nutter, right-wing nutter, hyper-Christian nutter or some other anti-gov crusader decides its their "right" to get infected with COVID, fine, but let them pay the full price of admission!

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...or left wing anti-vaxxer? Or non-Christian nutter?

They come from all spectrums guys. I know! Ive got them in the extended family from all those spectrums.

It's the fringes - and the fringes of a table cloth hang NWS&E

I've given up long ago batting away at their various tropes. Not worth it.

My local chemist just told me (today) he will be doing AZ vax's by the end of the week.

He apparently needed "training" and an approval.

Jesus wept. He's a compounding chemist with a PhD. Training, for a needle. Must be a tricky one indeed if a bloke like him needs training....

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Originally Posted by woodPixel

My local chemist just told me (today) he will be doing AZ vax's by the end of the week.

He apparently needed "training" and an approval.

Jesus wept. He's a compounding chemist with a PhD. Training, for a needle. Must be a tricky one indeed if a bloke like him needs training....

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Yep, it's laughable. It was exactly the same here, giving 'flu vaxes every day but needed training for covid. But if you could see how much time my wife wastes on accreditation, re-accreditation, writing and maintaining standard operating procedures, and the myriad of other nonsense they have to do, you'd cry, you really would. Like I said in an earlier post, Australia micro-manages everything to a ridiculous degree...

It's not just medicine though, it's everything. I read an official "government" (or whatever board/council sets the rules) thing about what electrical work you can DIY. It stated, and I quote (as near as I can remember!);

"Australia has very much more restrictive rules about electrical work than many other countries. There's a very good reason for this, electricity is dangerous and can kill you".

Hang on. The "very good reason" for Australia being more restrictive than other countries is that electricity is dangerous? But isn't it equally dangerous in those other countries?......

Or; I used to fly a drone around my farm, to check water troughs etc. after some surgery made me immobile for a while. Then they changed the rules, so I had to apply for an exemption from needing a license to fly my drone. Then, when they had my details, they changed again so I had to register my drone and get a license. It's the same thing, ever increasing licensing requirements that achieve nothing except keeping a bunch of paper-pushers in a job....

Same thing with farm chemicals. Same thing with 'roo culling (sorry if this is offensive to anyone). Every time the license needs renewing the process is more onerous and the new license lasts a shorter time. And (back to governments stupidly believing people will do the right thing!) every time they make the requirements more onerous, fewer people bother following the rules! It's completely counter-productive.

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Originally Posted by Warb

It's not just medicine though, it's everything. I read an official "government" (or whatever board/council sets the rules) thing about what electrical work you can DIY. It stated, and I quote (as near as I can remember!);

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Have you seen the current training programs for someone to hold a stop/go sign these days??? Wow!

Money is good though :)

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Originally Posted by Bendigo Bob

...or left wing anti-vaxxer? Or non-Christian nutter?

They come from all spectrums guys? ...

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Local teenager summed it up best. "He's an AAS" - pronounced "***". Sounds like a word you are not allowed to use on the Forum.


AAS = arrogant and stupid.

I was chatting to my GP while getting some scripts about things in general and he gave me an example of a new drug ruling brought in by some bureaucrat in Canberra.
Its for Nexium - a common drug for gastric reflux. It’s available in 20mg and 40mg doses. You can buy 20mg over the counter but it’s twice the price of that on prescription. You can get 5 repeats for the 20mg on the script.
40mg is quite a common dose but now the doctor has to ring Canberra to get a release number AND they can’t get repeats so every month a patient has to come in, pay a consultation fee, the doctor has to ring Canberra and then writes a script. He said the guys in Canberra taking the phone calls are spewing.
Also a drug used to treat one type of cancer is subsidised and costs $50 a month but take the same drug for another type of cancer and it costs $70000 a year?

Damn this lockdown - gives one too much time to mull over things.

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Originally Posted by Lappa

Damn this lockdown - gives one too much time to mull over things.

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The medical system does that kind of mucking about all the time. It's supposedly to save money, but it is decreed by people who don't seem to understand how things work. For example, the diabetes registration now lasts for only 6 months (?) before the patient has to see a doctor and get a new form signed. I'd bet that if you totalled the cost of all the patients seeing the doctor twice as frequently just to get a form signed, it would cost far far more than the money that might be wasted by a small number of people who (apparently) recover from diabetes and therefore didn't need blood sugar testing consumables but still get them....

The prescription vs over the counter pricing is also fun, and it gets better. The discount pharmacies advertise "cheap" prescriptions. What they often do, in fact, is to supply the product as a private script, so the customer pays the over the counter price rather than the PBS price. Because some drugs are quite cheap, this does sometimes give a lower price..... but..... the private script price doesn't count towards the patients "safety net", so whilst the individual price is cheaper, for those people who take a lot of medication they never hit the safety net limit. That means they pay that lower price all year, rather than getting it for free once they've hit the safety net. Of course the cheap pharmacies don't tell people this! We've had some very angry people who, towards the end of the year, suddenly realise that their total medication bill is far higher because they "saved" a few cents on some scripts!

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Originally Posted by Warb

The prescription vs over the counter pricing is also fun, and it gets better. The discount pharmacies advertise "cheap" prescriptions. What they often do, in fact, is to supply the product as a private script, so the customer pays the over the counter price rather than the PBS price. Because some drugs are quite cheap, this does sometimes give a lower price..... but..... the private script price doesn't count towards the patients "safety net", so whilst the individual price is cheaper, for those people who take a lot of medication they never hit the safety net limit. That means they pay that lower price all year, rather than getting it for free once they've hit the safety net. Of course the cheap pharmacies don't tell people this! We've had some very angry people who, towards the end of the year, suddenly realise that their total medication bill is far higher because they "saved" a few cents on some scripts!

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Warb, you may be able to answer this. Do you mean the pharmacies who offer the $6.60 scripts that pensioners and us DVA Gold Card holders are entitled to at $5.60? I thought that these still count towards the safety net but at the cheaper price meaning you still hit the safety net when you have spent the same amount. I go to a chemist who charges me the $6.60 so that I hit the safety net earlier than if he gave me the $1 per script discount that others do. Once I hit the safety net my scripts are free for the rest of the year and so are my partner's. My annual expenditure on scripts is the same whichever way I go but by not getting the discount, my partner's full price scripts become free earlier in the year.

Have I got this right?

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Originally Posted by doug3030

Warb, you may be able to answer this.

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I believe there are various different approaches, but I want to make sure of the details before I answer! My wife is in a video conference at the moment, if I'm still awake when she gets out I'll ask her (otherwise tomorrow morning!) and let you know.

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Originally Posted by Warb

The medical system does that kind of mucking about all the time. It's supposedly to save money, but it is decreed by people who don't seem to understand how things work. For example, the diabetes registration now lasts for only 6 months (?) before the patient has to see a doctor and get a new form signed. I'd bet that if you totalled the cost of all the patients seeing the doctor twice as frequently just to get a form signed, it would cost far far more than the money that might be wasted by a small number of people who (apparently) recover from diabetes and therefore didn't need blood sugar testing consumables but still get them....

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I'm not so sure about that.

I seem to recall that the AMA's lobbyists* had a dust up with the pharmacy guild's lobbyists around the time Turnbull was toppled.
The pharmacy guild's lobbyists wanted to make medicines "cheaper" overall by doubling the number of repeats allowed on each script. The AMA's lobbyists didn't want a bare of that as it would mean that doctors only saw the "cash cow" half as frequently. Guess who prevailed?

My guess is that the "diabetes registration only lasts 6 months" is an outcome of that lobbying campaign around the number of repeats permitted on a script. More Medicare income to the quacks and screw the patient.
It certainly won't be about "saving money" for either the patient or the Commonwealth ...







* elsewhere I've seen "lobbying" described as large scale institutionalised bribery.
Little wonder there's no Federal anticorruption commission