kitchen questions.

How you going,

Been given the task to do up our kitchen. I'm not really a kitchen sort of fella, so there's a few design aspects I've never really put much thought into before, and I was hoping for some advice. Hopefully catch something I've missed. Lastest gagets etc. Some clever ideas to keep me in the good books.

Basically, I'm just going to make up some new benches to replace all the beatup looking ones there in the picture. Just going to make the new units up in the shed. Then try and gut the kitchen and install the new benches on the same day.

Going to buy a cube of blue gum and just see how I go. New sink, mixer, and a little tap from the rain water tank. New kitchen window.

Questions....
- soft close drawers runners .... do you reakon there worth it ? They sound expensive. any tips.

- Also what I'm unsure about is the drawer layout. How many I need and size. I suppose theres many options there.

- Where do you reakon I should store a bin. I was thinking to just store it under the sink on a door maybe. Or maybe on a door that drops out ? Or a bin that sits under a hole in the bench top, and you just throw scraps straight in ???? ...We like to keep compost scraps seperate.

Appreciate any advice. Thanks.

This is the sort of question that will get you answers driven primarily by personal preferences...and here are mine:

Soft close drawer runners - yep, they're not cheap. If you like them then they're worth it if you could go either way then save yourself some dollars; you are looking at about $100 per drawer if you go with the Blumotion...no real tips except for the obvious one of marking up drilling and fitting the runners before you assemble the carcasses.

Drawer Layout - in terms of effective storage you should be considering drawers wherever possible.
Conventional formats are 2, 3, 4 and 5 equal then 1 small two large, 2 small and 2 large and so on.
Mixing and matching heights is quite simple as there are a range of different height drawer sets to accomodate all the sizes.
I like to put in lots of 1 small 2 large, with the top drawer about 142mm High and then two pot drawers 286mm hingh underneath.
If you have enough of these you can do away with a set of 4 small drawers altogether - again very much to do with personal preferences.

Bin location - all of your options are good, hole in the benchtop does mean sacrificing some benchtop real estate though.
There is a reliable slide out dual bin system from Kimberly, the KR08, which sits in it's own frame with integrated lids.
One of the advantages of this particular model is that it is low enough to either go under the sink or behind it's own door with a small drawer above it; perferct for holding garbage bags and so on... a bit like the drawer set under the sink in your existing kitchen, except with a door below.

Just a little side note on your existing kitchen; I don't know how much you intend to change the layout, but is it possible to try and move the oven far enough to the left so that you don't have a blind corner next to it? Blind corners are a real PITA and I recommend that people do whatever possible to avoid them.

Cheers,

Thanks for taking the the time to write that Earl. Clarified a few things for me.

Especially about the oven being in a blind corner. Its worried me to. I can shift the whole thing about 500mm away from where it is at the moment. So , I'll do that, and maybe make a couple of doors that set into the corner. Forgotten what their called. Where one door hinges off the other. Opens right up so she can get to her pots and pans.

It is my pleasure Jake - and thanks for the thanks...

Bifold doors are the things you are thinking about (unless you want to get extravagant and put in a set of Blum corner drawers)

If you are using a hinging system such as the Blum cliptop range:

http://www.blum.com.au/au/en/01/20/10/20/index.php

then you will find that there are some specialist hinge formats for bifold doors.
Particularly useful is the 170 degree hinge that enables you to crank the first door of the bifold door set right out of the way allowing the second door to fold in and still give access to the cavity.

See how you go.

Cheers,

Jake i hope you take pics and do a WIP of the kitchen for all of us to see. And i must say, looking at the pic you are a lot younger looking than i had imagined:)

Have been tossing about these sort of questions plus a few more for some time myself. Asked lots of people also in the same situation too, (although they all have finished the job now).

As Earl said, lots of personal preferences but,... some general answers / views I got are as follows:

Drawers: YES, yes and yes. Forget cupboards. Layout as Earl said.

Drawers soft close: Yes, very nice. If you spend of lot of time cooking then I would go for them, good if you are a messy cook too, (look Ma no hands). Are safer for little kids' fingers as well, compared to the jump shut ones. Check out your pot heught dimensions when selecting drawer height so you are sure they will fit. Tis a real bumber when you have nice sets of drawers that are 10mm too small for a couple of everyday pots.

Bins: As you and Earl said for location etc. I found one, Blum I think, that is hands free and self opening, press with your knee and hey presto door slides open and lid lifts up. I really liked it and am going to have to find out where to get it. No more needing three hands to empty the scraps into the bin.

Oven location: As Earl said. Have a similar situation and opening oven door next to other doors/drawers that can clash is to be avoided, plus the dead area thing.

Anyway, is all rather personal choice and budget driven. For me it is convenience and ease of use, (am messy in the cooking department) so will be saving up for the soft closers and fancy bin door thingy.

Keep us updated. Like to see the end result.

Cheers
Pops

Just to confuse you Jake, if drawers were the most efficient way of storing things, they'd be used all the time in commercial kitchens.

With no disrespect intended to Earl or Pops, they have come in to fashion in recent years because of marketing by the kitchen people. There's a bigger margin on a more expensive kitchen, and people have convinced themselves that they are terrific. (they're not bad, and they do have a purpose, but they're not terrific and not good value as far as I'm concerned).

The best way to store stuff is to put purpose made shelves in the cupboards, and don't make them too wide. Under benches I prefer to use three shelves not one, the bottom one full width, the next 400 the top one 300.

You basically stack things on them to suit their size and you can fit an amazing amount in them. Compare the price of one piece of 300 wide MDF to making a drawer, let alone the cost of the Blumotion slides!

Yes the Bumotion are worth it IF you are going to stack crockery in your drawers. The most efficient way to store crockery is in a vertical cupboard no more than 300 deep. That's the depth of the biggest dinner plate you own, and you don't want to stack things two deep do you?

I actually have a false back in my crockery cupboard to bring it out to the face of the others. Then you need heaps of shelves, set about an inch higher than the glasses you are going to put on them, or about twice the depth of a bowl clear over the bowl stack! Our shelves range from 140 to 230 apart depending on what's on them.

Put the crockery about one step from the sink/dishwasher and you'll be amazed at how easy life becomes at washing up time.

I don't like bins in cupboards, but built a separate carcass 400 wide and used a slide-out twin bin. It works fine.

Pantries are the other places that the kitchen joints tend to get wrong. You don't need shelves any deeper than 300 and you don't need them any further apart than 300 (a box of cornies), leave a 300 gap at the front of the cupboard and you can stick a broom in there too and hang stuff off the inside of the doors and maybe even get a tea towel rack in.

You should get six shelves in easily.

Hope you are now so confused that the project gets put off for a year!

cheers,

P
:D:D

excellent suggestions BM

apricotripper, just a question.
Who does the most cooking in the kitchen. If it is (for example) your SWMBO, , does she have any preference about what she likes where, eg, cutletry drawer near the sink/ serving area, that sort of thing?

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm trying to take it all in. Its all making feel kinda tired all of a sudden to be honest. not sure what to do now.

I'll try and do a WIP Lignum. And I can't cook. My wifes right into it Tameriska.

This whole house is what you get after about 50 years of half finished renos I reakon.

Its sounding like the soft closing runners won't be necessary if each draws going to add another $100. That'll add up to a lot of money. And the misses plan is to put all the crockery up high in a cabinet on the wall anyway. With stained glass in the doors and these trendy looking knobs she bought from Byron bay. Another thing I have to make. like in that first picture.......Also wants the bench below it to extend around to form a breakfast/preparation table with stools around it.

She also wants a pantry made into this stuffy looking corner of the kitchen. In picture 2 (bad feng shui dat is ! )....There's a doorway there for some reason going to one of the kids bedrooms. So I was just going to try and block it off with a pantry with a sliding door. And on the bedroom side cover it with a built in of some sort.

And that blind corner you mentioned (picture 3).....definetly seems like particularily bad Feng shoe.... Thinking orient the bifold like this. Don't know if thats what you were thinking. Thinking to open it away from the oven.

Still seems like a bit of a back strainer for the misses really. Don't want her hurting her back bending in there for something. Maybe some sort of shelving system that pulls out ?????

Thinking to basically make the frames out of pine to keep it cheap. Spray paint it (she likes blood red, or blue grey), then have blue gum timber drawer fronts and bench tops......playing with the idea of using up my stash of silky oak, but, I don't want to use it all up, and I prefer the look of darker timber.

apricotripper, this might be an idea (absolutely, most definately don't look at the price, just the idea) for making easy accessable cupboard corners.

As long as the kid can get out of his bedroom some other way, it looks like a good spot for a pantry, dead space thats out of the way enough not to trip over other people.

Like Lingum, I will be looking forward to a WIP

Jake,
just a tip for the corner cupboards. I try to avoid bifolding the doors as the hinges always sag. Instead each door is hinged on 170deg hinges. One door closes first and has no handle, the other, with a handle, then closes and laps over the first. To operate you open the one with the handle and then reach in and grab the edge of the second door to open it. You won't have to come back and constantly adjust the hinges.

Mick

Jake I don't agree with BM...I think draws are a fantastic way to store pots and Tupperware type items.....you pull out the draw and everything can be seen. Unlike cupboards where things hide from you.

I put dual 1m long draws 2 x 270 + 1 X 175 ish draws in mine and it holds all the pots, pans, cutlery, cooking utensils, and Tupperware in less space than cupboards.

I used the cheapest metal side draws with no problems with runners after 3 years. they're not soft closing and they don't pull out all the way...but I don't need the brand names.

With the rubbish thing I put in two stackable slide out bins ..2 for recyclables 2 for scraps and rubbish. $160 all up works great.

I won't suggest design though.....thats half the fun of doing it yourself.:)

Attachment 62622

Attachment 62623

why dontcha spend a day out going round some showrooms

FWIW my thoughts, the product of several renovation experiences, on this subject are:

1. corner cupboards are a PITA - they are dark and are very hard to use - even with bifold doors, they are difficult to get things out of because all the space is at the back and you end up having to unpack the entire lot whenever you want to get something that isn't at the front out of the cupboard. This means they aren't used. I think that you are better off trying to avoid corners entirely - it may look like you are losing storage, but if it isn't really usable, it isn't really storage. For example, I would put the stove in the corner with no return bench, you lose a corner but you generate more usable bench and drawer/cupboard space.
2. I agree with BT that pot drawers are good, but again, try to avoid the temptation to make them high, unless you need to - try to make each for one layer of pots, not to stack pots in the drawers. As BM says, shelves in cupboards can be used, but I reckon they are a PITA because the stuff at the back is hard to get at. You can either use shallow shelves (less storage) or drawers - drawers can be deep (front to back) because you pull them out to get stuff out of them.
3. Pull out pantries are good - they operate like vertical drawers and allow you to use tall narrow spaces for storage of groceries without losing heaps of stuff up the back of a deep cupboard.
4. If SWMBO wants extra bench space, look at whether there are spaces that can have fold up flaps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sybarite

(unless you want to get extravagant and put in a set of Blum corner drawers)

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They just transfer the problem somewhere else. :D

Thanks to everyone for the good ideas. I'm still confused. Can't you blokes just agree. So I can just copy it, and make it easy for me. I don't really want to be origional, I just want it done..... so I can get some love from the misses, and then do something I really want to do. :~:D

The boss is on holidays at the moment, so I borrowed a couple of huge catalogs from his little library today. Full of all the gadgets and gizmos you guys being talking about. But its not making it any easier for me unfortunately.

I'll just try and keep it simple. My main concern is for my wifes weak back (and she doesn't bend her knees!)....So, I'll try and get her to agree to wall storage as much as possible. And the idea behind not having deep cubboards I like especially, so you can see everything and don't have to dig. Its all going to be dictated by how much I can spend anyhow.

Having said that, I reakon these things look clever. Thin tower thingo, to hold the commonly used stuff. Can see her liking that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apricotripper

Thanks to everyone for the good ideas. I'm still confused. Can't you blokes just agree. Of course not - where's the fun in that?:)So I can just copy it, and make it easy for me. I don't really want to be origional, I just want it done..... so I can get some love from the misses, and then do something I really want to do. :~:D

The boss is on holidays at the moment, so I borrowed a couple of huge catalogs from his little library today. Full of all the gadgets and gizmos you guys being talking about. But its not making it any easier for me unfortunately. Fraid you just have to design it yorself - just remember to try to keep it so that it is one step from the sink to the stove to the bench to the ink (ie they make a triangle of about 1m sides) Aside from that just make some judgement calls on what makes sense to you and see what the reaction from the missus is.

I'll just try and keep it simple. My main concern is for my wifes weak back (and she doesn't bend her knees!)....So, I'll try and get her to agree to wall storage as much as possible. And the idea behind not having deep cubboards I like especially, so you can see everything and don't have to dig. Its all going to be dictated by how much I can spend anyhow.

Having said that, I reakon these things look clever. Thin tower thingo, to hold the commonly used stuff. Can see her liking that. We decided on them and they work really well, even if they are a bit exxy.

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Just trying to help!!:p

"Secret" drawers in some of the kick panels. Also useful for storing instruction manuals.

Like this:
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_bas...k_Drawers.html

when googling "toe kick drawer" works better than "kick panel" - I'm not in the kitchen game, so feel free to correct my terminology.

Cheers,
Andrew

Thanks Jeremy and Andrew.

Hi Jake,

Have you had a chance to sit in the kitchen and chat to your wife one night while she's cooking dinner, quietly watching how she works in the space? What drawers/cupboards does she use the most etc etc etc?

Cheers
Wendy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RufflyRustic

Hi Jake,

Have you had a chance to sit in the kitchen and chat to your wife one night while she's cooking dinner, quietly watching how she works in the space? What drawers/cupboards does she use the most etc etc etc?

Cheers
Wendy

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A very good idea, Wendy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RufflyRustic

Hi Jake,

Have you had a chance to sit in the kitchen and chat to your wife one night while she's cooking dinner, quietly watching how she works in the space? What drawers/cupboards does she use the most etc etc etc?

Cheers
Wendy

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I like that Wendy.

After work I sit in there while she's making tea and we talk....

She mostly moves from fridge to bench beside stove and cutting board. From that bad corner next to the over she gets her pots. Its always a mess in there. Hard to get to. So that what I think should be focused on mainly.

I think she also wants a fly away cabinet. We're playing with the idea of putting a couple of fly screened doors over the old fireplace, with a couple of shelves behind. Cool in there. Good for storing some food I'd say.

Here's another picture :rolleyes:. I quite like drawing on photos. :D

Hi Jake

So, Fridge close to the main work bench, improved pot & pan storage, and maybe sink in the middle - yep, there's that magic triangle thing again. :rolleyes:

Something else to keep in mind. Having benchtop space available either side of the cooktop is very handy as well.
I personally, will never put drawers under the sink drainer sides again. I can't get to mine when someone is using the sink and if they are open, the contents get splashed.

Great idea for the old fireplace!

cheers
Wendy

Good ideas theres Wendy. I never really gave that much thought before. I'll mention it to Es.

Thanks.

Could not have said it better myself Wendy. All three points I agree with verily. Great minds etc., eh. :) My friends also said the same when they designed their kitchen.

They had the rubbish bin under the sink drainer with a door that pulled the bin out when you opened it. That was good for the scraps.

Happy pondering Jake.

Cheers
Pops

Couple of things I found very useful in my last 2 kitchens:
1. Narrow (150mm) but tall (700) mm slide out rack adjacent to the sink to hold all the detergents, cleaning bottles, etc. These things are brilliant compared to rummaging around a shelf under the sink.
2. A small appliance cupboard to hold the toaster, kettle, coffee, tea, etc. Preferably with a light on a microswitch that turns on when the door is opened and a 4 outlet power point inside (sometimes even 4 is not enough)

One feature I like about my kitchen is that I have a beer cupboard specifically for storing of beer bottles...even though the wife thinks its where shopping bags should be stored:((:D

Jake

my 2 cents worth

Layout
the clasic layout is a triangle with the fridge – preparation area – cooking area at the points
no more than two steps from one to another

bench height
what SWMBO finds most comfortable and bugger any "standard"
I've seen kitchens where the cook top was lower than the surrounding bench so that "the little woman" can see into a pot on the rear burner — my wife has a preference for our front burners precisely because of this

you can't have too many drawers — I like full extension slides because it's then easy to get to the things at the back of the drawer

deep shelves with stuff stacked on them are the pits

two or three of the drawers should be "dentist drawers" very shallow so the cuttlery and utensils don't build up into deep drifts

for the pantry tall and narrow (or shallow) is the way to go

the every day crockery can be stored on a plate rack rather than a cupboard

don't forget a space to store the rolls of al foil, cling wrap, baking sheet, etc, plus space for plastic bags
and space to store the cake tiuns and baking trays

where will the microwave go — on the bench, a wall under the bench

lighting where, what type and how bright



construction
moisture resistant chip board is probably much easier and faster than timber — almost certainly even cheaper if you buy pre cut flat pack carcasses that you assemble yourself.

gut the old and install the new all in one day?
who are you kidding?
moving the stove / sink / fridge and repairing / patching the floor once you moved the something
think about locating power points where you need them — we have one near the stove so that we can use an electric mixer to beat stuff on the stove
how many power points will you need for the toaster, kettle, coffee machine, kitchen radio, mix master, etc


for ideas
trawl the web sites of Blum, www.blum.com.au
Lee Valley (for example http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/pa...722,43723&ap=1 ) and others

here's Blum's way of dealing with dead corners
http://www.blum.com.au/img/slideshow...ow_box0568.jpg



ian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ian

...................here's Blum's way of dealing with dead corners.................

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Which is quite expensive and leaves you with a dead corner behind the drawers and one on either side. :rolleyes: I try to make a corner cupboard 900 x 900 which makes it a reasonably useable space. Or you could go 800 x 800 and fit a plastic lazy susan unit for about $90 (Hafele or Hettich, can't remember which) or spend more for a metal one.

Mick

don"t think any body has mentioned it yet but maybe download the ikea kitchen planner even if you are not useing there cabinets it is very helpful to see what options you have .once you have entered the measurement of your kitchen into it .
rob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

Which is quite expensive and leaves you with a dead corner behind the drawers and one on either side. :rolleyes: I try to make a corner cupboard 900 x 900 which makes it a reasonably useable space. Or you could go 800 x 800 and fit a plastic lazy susan unit for about $90 (Hafele or Hettich, can't remember which) or spend more for a metal one.

Mick

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Totally agree. Using the blum drawer system you end up with 3 triangular dead spaces.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

Which is quite expensive and leaves you with a dead corner behind the drawers and one on either side. :rolleyes: I try to make a corner cupboard 900 x 900 which makes it a reasonably useable space. Or you could go 800 x 800 and fit a plastic lazy susan unit for about $90 (Hafele or Hettich, can't remember which) or spend more for a metal one.

Mick

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Mick
I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just presenting ideas ...
the Blum arrangement could be achieved with full extension drawer slides from virtually any source
and as to dead space, I'm still looking for ideas that make the space in a blind corner reasonably accessible — wiyhout having to partially unlaod the cupboard to get at the stuff at the back

here is Lee valley's take on a "solution"
http://www.leevalley.com/images/item...12k28xxs3b.jpg

all of them have some amount of dead space which a user needs to trade off against improved accessibility.

BTW, Jake should be able to build something like this from timber and HD drawer slides

http://www.leevalley.com/images/item...C12K2912s1.jpg

Ian,
there's a unit from Hettich for blind corners (and another that Lincoln Sentry carry, manufacturer slipped my mind) which consists of 2 wire drawer units. You open the door and the first unit comes out the door towards you. You pull it clear of the opening and it pulls the 2nd unit out of the blind corner into the door opening. Works really well, especially if the unit is a neat fit in your blind corner. Bit exxy at around $6 - $700 from memory though. You can also fit a half circle lazy susan unit but these don't use the space nearly as efficiently.

Mick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

Ian,
there's a unit from Hettich for blind corners (and another that Lincoln Sentry carry, manufacturer slipped my mind) which consists of 2 wire drawer units. You open the door and the first unit comes out the door towards you. You pull it clear of the opening and it pulls the 2nd unit out of the blind corner into the door opening. Works really well, especially if the unit is a neat fit in your blind corner. Bit exxy at around $6 - $700 from memory though. You can also fit a half circle lazy susan unit but these don't use the space nearly as efficiently.

Mick

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Something like this USD$200 one from Lee Valley?
http://www.leevalley.com/images/item.../12k3310s1.jpg http://www.leevalley.com/images/item.../12k3310d5.gif


ian

Corners are a pain and as has been said before there isn't really any one perfect solution - all of them involve one form of compromise or another.

Corner units can't always be avoided, especially in small kitchens.
I will do anything to avoid a Blind Corner but even these sometimes have to be considered.

I am not personally fond of any pull out solution which involves moving the entire contents of a cabinet everytime I want to get something.

The local Haefele team recently came to my studio and demonstrated the unit below.
I am pretty sure Lincoln Sentry have something similar and of course it won't be cheap.
It is a very solid construction and has a great action.
Just another blind corner option.

thanks for the ideas.

I quite like those lazy susan ones there Ian.

Bit worried about pan handles catching on things as you turn it though. Because thats what that area will hold mostly. But maybe thats not a problem ?? And doesn't look too pricey. I wouldn't buy plastic versions.

I wonder how much mexican migets cost on ebay. Maybe buy one of them and just get him to hand pots to her at request. But then I spose I'd have to sacrifice some space for him too. :D sorry.

Seriously thinking maybe just block off that little corner completely. And just have draws either side. No sagging bifolds.

Save on having to buy a gaget and no worries ever about her braking her back trying to store something heavy down deep in there. Especially since it sounds like some of that space will be lost anyway with a clever arrangement. I think she'll end up having more than enough storage space anyway.

Quote:

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BTW, Jake should be able to build something like this from timber and HD drawer slides

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Maybe. But what might be tricky for me with something like that, is ensuring the thing rolls nicely when its all loaded up. Thinking after all the time I'd have to spend on it working out its mechanisms (and the stuffups along the way)etc, it might be better off just buying the unit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ian

..............Something like this USD$200 one from Lee Valley?

ian

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Ian,
Very much like it except for the price.:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apricotripper

.............And just have draws either side. No sagging bifolds.....

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Jake, you can avoid the bi-folds (mostly) by using the arrangement i described earlier in this thread.

Mick

I know what your saying Mick. Your ideas no doubt good. I'd do it, except I just don't want her bending in there grabbing conjested stuff, which she'd be doing in that corner without draws. Probably sounds a bit silly, but she's had a lot of serious problems with her back. And she too stubborn about it. Ignores it, pretending its not a problem. So, I feel that draws are the go, so it all just presents in front of her.

If I could pick your brain on draw runners. How cheap are runners that fix to the underside of draws ?.... Are they still high priced items ? I remember reading of it in a magizine once years ago, and I'd like them for all my draws.

See, I'm not too fussed with the cheapy looking white painted ones that run off the side of the draws(which I probably end up having to get). Looks horrible when you open the draws IMO. See, I'm trying to give myself an excuse to do some dovetailing, which look nice when you pull open a draw I reakon....but not if along side theres ugly looking cheap runners. Prefer if all the runners were hidden.

Jake,
the cheap white ones sould be a bit under $5 each by a decent manufacturer, the chromed full extension ball bearing ones around $25 each. The ones that fit under the drawer I've never bought, but they're the ones I'd go for also for timber drawers. Hettich make one called the Quadro (Quattro?) sp?. Looks expensive though, you'll have to make enquiries locally. Can you buy them any cheaper through work?

Mick