smell in bathroom

Any ideas please. Recently has bathroom renovated, and now there is a smell in the bathroom after showering. The plumbers have been out three times and unable to locate the cause.
This is what happens, everytime. I have a shower, turn of the shower and leave the room with the door closed. The fan is still running and the window is slightly open. I few minutes later I return to the barthroom to brush teeth and there is the smell. It only lasts for about 5 minutes until the next days shower.
The shower drain P-trap is working fine. I have even fitted a Grateseal Grate Seal - Stop smelly drains! which is like a oneway valve, but still the smell persists after shower.
So, with the Grateseal, I think I have effectively ruled out the shower drain as the culprit but cannot think what else it could be that is triggered by the shower?


The shower, toilet and basin are all on seperate pipe runs so cannot see how these could be connected
Help please

Is the bathroom floor waste trap filled?

A coupe off things to try:

1. Straight after your shower, run the tap in the basin and bath for 10 seconds or so, just enough to fill up their P-traps. If you have a floor waste, put some water into it. Sometimes, especially on the 2+ story, a volume of water flowing down the drain can suck other P-traps dry if the vent is not correctly installed.

I don't think this is it, as it would stink all day, not just for five minutes.

2. Could it be a mould issue in the drain or the bedding sand, or does it smell like a sewer pipe? If mould, a good spray with diluted bleach into every nook and cranny in the drain and the shower enclosure, basically anywhere water could get to.

Not a nice issue to have though I'm sure. We don't use our bath very much, and if we forget to run a bit of water into it every several weeks, it will evaporate enough to fill out on-suite and bedroom with a sewer pipe smell on a hot day, which is unpleasant.

The fact that the smell goes after cleaning teeth indicates that the shower is syphoning the other line that connects the vanity and bath which indicates that there is no vent servicing that line. The vanity and bath should feed into a floor waste then branch to the main discharge line from the bathroom. Regulations state that a vent must be within 3.0m of a charged floor waste, if it is not then it is possible to syphon the floor waste. I assume there are 2 floor wastes, 1 in the shower and the other in the area bounded by bath & vanity. Have you checked that the waste outside of the shower is clear of debris from the re-tiling, no sand/cement/grout/broken tiles. Have the plumbers done a smoke test on the occasions they have returned to check it?

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Originally Posted by Beardy

Is the bathroom floor waste trap filled?

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Waste trap fills fine and retains sufficient water in the bend. So it's not that. Plus the grate seal I installed rules out the smell from the drain, as it is physically sealed.

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Waste trap fills fine and retains sufficient water in the bend. So it's not that. Plus the grate seal I installed rules out the smell from the drain, as it is physically sealed.

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Waste trap fills fine and retains sufficient water in the bend. So it's not that. Plus the grate seal I installed rules out the smell from the drain, as it is physically sealed.

That could be it. Tommorow, after the shower is off, I will run the vanity for a minute, (there is no bath) if that fixes it, then yes the shower is syphoning the vanity. Thanks. Ill give it a try
I did ask plumber to do smoke test and he said there is no such thing.

When you do that check the floor waste as well as the vanity for smell as the vanity would be connected ( charges) the bathroom floor waste

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Originally Posted by man from uncle

That could be it. Tommorow, after the shower is off, I will run the vanity for a minute, (there is no bath) if that fixes it, then yes the shower is syphoning the vanity. Thanks. Ill give it a try
I did ask plumber to do smoke test and he said there is no such thing.

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Time to find a new plumber, preferable old school who does know his trade

One waste is siphoning the seal out of one of the other traps, seen it heaps of times.

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Originally Posted by riverbuilder

One waste is siphoning the seal out of one of the other traps, seen it heaps of times.

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I tested this theory, and I dont think it is that. The bathroom has shower, vanitybasin and toilet. Today I put plug in the vanity and put some water in the basin before shower. This would eliminate that theory that the shower was syphoning the basin/vanity. But still same smell.
The toilt retains the water in the bottom and I dont see any movement of water or sound in that area during or after shower

still perplexed!

More ideas welcomed

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Originally Posted by rwbuild

Time to find a new plumber, preferable old school who does know his trade

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maybe, the plumber was a young lad( not that young people can't be plumbers ofcourse) and the plumbing was inspected independly before signed off - so not sure exactly. I might ask the bathroom company to send a differentt plumber for an independent look from the plumber who did the work!

No offence to the builders and tradesmen on here, whom I'm sure do a good job. Your experience is fairly typical of my experience of builders and the building trades. There seems to be far too many of them who are incapable of performing good work, unless it's on their own place of course. :D

Things that I have seen builders/tradesmen do over the years:
- waterproofing bathroom/ensuite by a professional waterproofing company in a block of 16 townhouses in Leichhardt. Nothing wrong with the materials used, but not properly installed so that they all failed at the floor/wall junction within 12 years. Major damage in some units.
- failure to follow engineers design requirements re. underpinning and steel roof member support.
- plumber installed new toilet that leaked from the bottom of the cistern. Got him back, he couldn't fix it. :~ He hadn't centered the flush mechanism in the cistern base.
- two cases of a builder not coming back to properly finish the job. :?
- builder installed a leadlight front door back to front. Identical door already installed within 20 feet the right way round. Asked me to accept it as it was. :no:
- plumber quoted $1,500 to connect a new toilet. Did the job myself, one days work and less than $100 in parts. Didn't want the job or just a ripoff merchant?

When problems eventually come to light, often years down the track, the builder/ tradesman is nowhere to be seen.

Unfortunately 'quick and dirty' is the way things are done by far too many trades these days, unless it's their place of course. :rolleyes: And, as we all know, anybody can paint. :no:

Some vagaries here, you have a floor waste in the shower, we know that definitely, is there another floor waste in the room, yes or no

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Originally Posted by rwbuild

Some vagaries here, you have a floor waste in the shower, we know that definitely, is there another floor waste in the room, yes or no

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Hi. Thanks for your help.

No there is no other floor waste.

This is strip drain at the shower all cleaned and clear. The p-trap in the shower drain is working fine and retaining water in the trap. I have added the grate seal, which completely seals the shower drain anyway.(it is like a one way valve that lets water through and and then immediately seals.

There is a vanity and a toilet in the same room. (no bath) I looked under the house and all three outlets, (shower, toilet and vanity) are on seperate lines and do not connect to each other in anyway. The P-trap under the vanity seems to be working fine, it retains water and does not syphon away

any other ideas most appreciated

thanks

Does the vanity basin have an overflow outlet? Check that it’s connected correctly, see them not hooked up before.

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Originally Posted by riverbuilder

Does the vanity basin have an overflow outlet? Check that it’s connected correctly, see them not hooked up before.

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No, the basin does not have an overflow outlet.

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Originally Posted by man from uncle

Any ideas please. Recently has bathroom renovated, and now there is a smell in the bathroom after showering.

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How long after the bathroom renovation did you start noticing the smell?? What does it smell like???
If we knew what it smelt like, it would be possible to give a more definitive answer.
I know this has nothing to do with your problem, but, I lived in a house that my wife had built with her ex, and she kept complaining about her sinuses, as if she was allergic to the house. We'd go away for a few days and her sinus would be fine, back home a few hours, and the sinus would flare up again. To cut a long story short, the breacher pipe where the hot and cold water connected to the shower "T" wasn't properly soldered. We ended up having to renovate the bathroom and replace the wall that backed onto the shower because of the mold.
Kryn

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Originally Posted by KBs PensNmore

How long after the bathroom renovation did you start noticing the smell?? What does it smell like???
If we knew what it smelt like, it would be possible to give a more definitive answer.
I know this has nothing to do with your problem, but, I lived in a house that my wife had built with her ex, and she kept complaining about her sinuses, as if she was allergic to the house. We'd go away for a few days and her sinus would be fine, back home a few hours, and the sinus would flare up again. To cut a long story short, the breacher pipe where the hot and cold water connected to the shower "T" wasn't properly soldered. We ended up having to renovate the bathroom and replace the wall that backed onto the shower because of the mold.
Kryn

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The renovation is only aboout 2 months, and it was all stripped out and rebult so not likely to be mould issues

You say that all 3 pipes aren't connected under the house, therefore they branch into a main discharge externally. How far from the ensuit externally is the vent pipe?

more tests for you to do.
When you finish your shower shut window and door with fan on
Leave window ajar, fan off, door closed
Shut window and door, fan off
Shut window, door open and fan on
Any smell or none after these tests

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Originally Posted by rwbuild

You say that all 3 pipes aren't connected under the house, therefore they branch into a main discharge externally. How far from the ensuit externally is the vent pipe?

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Hi, I have no idea about this. do you mean that pipe that sticks out of the roof?

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Originally Posted by rwbuild

more tests for you to do.
When you finish your shower shut window and door with fan on
Leave window ajar, fan off, door closed
Shut window and door, fan off
Shut window, door open and fan on
Any smell or none after these tests

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I think it is somehow related to the fan, but not sure how. This morning I showered with window open (despite the Canberra cold) and fan off, and there was no smell.

I will repeat this again and see what happens

Could the fan be pulling smell out of the drain? if so it could only be the toilet. The shower has a grate seal, and I tested with the basin plug in and water in the basin.

I need to try with the toilet seat down, or seal it with cling film for a test !

As I am narrowing this down, I think it is something to do with the fan and the toilet - not the shower at all.

I closed the window and door, left the shower off and turned on the fan. And the smell was there. I am confident that the Grateseal on the shower drain is ok, and the sink trap is fine

is it possible, if the wax ring is not seated or sealed properly this could be the cause of the fan drawing the smell out?

Is the toilet a 'P' trap or an 'S' trap? Can you see the seal between the floor, or wall, as the case may be?

The reason for my tests was that I did suspect the fan, now as you say seal toilet with gladwrap, seal the outlet hole in grated drain with an inflated balloon and plug firmly in place in vanity,
. Now turn fan on with door and window shut and remove each seal one at a time with 5 minute delays between each. My hunch is its the vanity, having the smallest diameter it will be the one that is syphoning and the problem will be either the size of the vanity wast pipe UNDER THE FLOOR and could also be the distance of the vent pip[e from the ensuit.

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Originally Posted by rwbuild

The reason for my tests was that I did suspect the fan, now as you say seal toilet with gladwrap, seal the outlet hole in grated drain with an inflated balloon and plug firmly in place in vanity,
. Now turn fan on with door and window shut and remove each seal one at a time with 5 minute delays between each. My hunch is its the vanity, having the smallest diameter it will be the one that is syphoning and the problem will be either the size of the vanity wast pipe UNDER THE FLOOR and could also be the distance of the vent pip[e from the ensuit.

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I did all these things and even with all three outlets sealed, the fan is still pulling in the smell, which by elimination leaves the wax seal under the toilet.
I can see silcon alround the base of the toilet to the floor, but not at the back or against the wall - could this be it? is the fan strong enough to pull a smell from such a small area? my guess is that the smell is always there and builds up over under the toilet and is pulled out by the fan each time i use the shower each morning?

rwbuild, you seem knowledgeble about this, if the plumber misaligned the wax seal or it was damaged during installation, could that cause the issue??

thanks

The toilet pan SHOULD connect to the under floor riser with a purpose made adaptor that has a rubber/neoprene collar that seals to the outlet of the pan. I now strongly suspect that a) the rubber is missing or b) the pan is too off centre of the rubber adaptor to locate properly in the adaptor and since you say the silicon that holds the pan in place appears to be missing this will allow the fan to pull the fumes out of the discharge line. Contact the company that did the work and insist that they remove the pan to check with you there to observe.
Maybe this typehttps://www.woodworkforums.com/image...AAAAAAAAAB/9k=
or
https://media.bunnings.com.au/Produc...44789b83f5.pngit will depend on the particular pan you have, are various versions of both these types

What is this 'wax seal' of which you speak? As far as I'm aware the outlet on toilet bowls has been 'sealed' by pushing the outlet in to a silicone rubber pan collar/connector seal for well over 25 years, that's for both P and S trap toilets. If there is a misalignment between the toilet outlet of sufficient magnitude, or the pan outlet has not been sufficiently seated, it is certainly possible for air to escape past the seal if air pressure can't be equalised by an appropriately placed vent in the system. Yes the vent pipe is the pipe that sticks out of the roof. It could be that the grate seal in the shower has actually made the problem worse than it would otherwise have been.

Quote.... Toilet wax rings are old, outdated and not very commonly used in Australia anymore... End quote.

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Originally Posted by russ57

Quote.... Toilet wax rings are old, outdated and not very commonly used in Australia anymore... End quote.

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My mistake. Im not a plumber, there are lots of information on Google and YouTube that talks about wax rings,

Regardless of the method used, I think now that it is where the pan connects into the floor waste pipe.

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Originally Posted by rwbuild

The toilet pan SHOULD connect to the under floor riser with a purpose made adaptor that has a rubber/neoprene collar that seals to the outlet of the pan. I now strongly suspect that a) the rubber is missing or b) the pan is too off centre of the rubber adaptor to locate properly in the adaptor and since you say the silicon that holds the pan in place appears to be missing this will allow the fan to pull the fumes out of the discharge line. Contact the company that did the work and insist that they remove the pan to check with you there to observe.
Maybe this typehttps://www.woodworkforums.com/image...AAAAAAAAAB/9k=
or
https://media.bunnings.com.au/Produc...44789b83f5.pngit will depend on the particular pan you have, are various versions of both these types

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Thanks.
I am now convinced that this is the issue and will call the company

Any quality plumber worth his salt should have suspected that this was the problem. It should not have fallen to you to diagnose the fault and effectively have to force them to do something about it. Your experience further entrenches my view on the vagaries of employing a good tradesman.

Usually there is an hole either side of the pan that a plumber with a bore-scope could access to inspect the seal without removing the pan.

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Originally Posted by aldav

Any quality plumber worth his salt should have suspected that this was the problem. It should not have fallen to you to diagnose the fault and effectively have to force them to do something about it. Your experience further entrenches my view on the vagaries of employing a good tradesman.

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The flipside to that of course is most people focus on price so the likes of bathroom renovation companies use cheap trades to compete for work with the consumer Often young inexperienced tradies just starting out on their own work for those sorts of companies
Not making excuses but that is the reality of the situation

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Originally Posted by Beardy

The flipside to that of course is most people focus on price so the likes of bathroom renovation companies use cheap trades to compete for work with the consumer Often young inexperienced tradies just starting out on their own work for those sorts of companies
Not making excuses but that is the reality of the situation

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And on the other hand I've never met a poor plumber and if a company is employing inexperienced people then they should have an appropriate level of oversight. Re-doing jobs and call backs are expensive and they certainly don't do your reputation any good. It's not that hard to do due diligence these days when choosing a contractor, the problem is more about sorting the wheat from the chaff of the information that's out there.

The real problems arise when faults are not obvious and it's only years down the track that they raise their ugly heads. I know that some people think that a bathroom should be redone every 10 years but these's no excuse for making the choice mandatory because of poor workmanship.

Long time since i was an apprentice but I can remember my first lesson. Do it once, do it right!

Good luck getting this fixed.

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Originally Posted by apple8

Usually there is an hole either side of the pan that a plumber with a bore-scope could access to inspect the seal without removing the pan.

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Yes there appears to be those holes with caps - so hopefully he will have a bore-scope - he didnt have a gas meter!

He was not keen to come out, but when I explained my diagnostics, he is coming tommorrow. will see what he has to say!

So did the plumber turn up and what did you find?

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Originally Posted by rwbuild

So did the plumber turn up and what did you find?

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Thanks for your advice. And thanks to everyone else who commented. Problem resolved.
The plumber came out and pulled out the toilet and reseated it. Allthough it was impossible to tell if it had not been previousy not seated properly. This has now resolved the problem, and the young plumber has learned somethng, he was saying he had never see this happen before

These forums are great, I am not sure that I could have got a fix I had not had all this assistance with diagnostics.

Great outcome! Pleased to hear it got resolved sensibly.