Ballot papers

Evening,
The other night a couple of mates and I were discussing the world's problems over a couple of beers, as you do, when we got onto the differences between elections US style, and those in Australia. The obvious one about compulsory voting here was raised, then someone mentioned a "complication" that happened during GW's first election. Expensive recounts or something I seem to remember. Was it linked to some machine or something in use over there??
Of course our system is foolproof...:rolleyes:...but if a ballot paper is a legal document (in that its illegal to tamper with one), why are they filled out in PENCIL!! I hadn't ever given it a second thought, except maybe that pencils are cheaper to issue, but every other legal document MUST be filled out in ink, esp. blue or black.
I'd have thought its too easy to manipulate, so am I missing something here?:?

Cheers,

The ink is harder to rub out and change, thats why they use pencil.

Al :o

In the recent Victorian elections, there was a seat which came down to a handful of votes to decide the winner. They recounted several times and didn't get the same answer on any of those recounts. It wasn't 2 or 3 different, it was considerably different each time.

Makes you wonder.

Hello, Darlings;
I've worked in call centres for both federal and state elections (it's actually kind of fun, especially the really cranky buggers) and was once asked this very question. Which is how come I know the answer.

Basically, as much gear as possible is prepared in advance for an election, and kept in storage for the big day. Pencils don't bleed, perish or otherwise degrade in the warehouse. That's about it, really. You can use pen to fill out your postal vote and they give (sorry, lend) you a pen when you cast an early vote.

As an aside, I've found the folks who work for the Australian and Victorian Electoral commissions to be extremely honest, diligent, committed both to the letter of the law and flexible if it means honouring the democratic sprirt. I'm sure I needn't point out the irony involved, given the results of their efforts.

Cheers,
Rusty.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gumby

In the recent Victorian elections, there was a seat which came down to a handful of votes to decide the winner. They recounted several times and didn't get the same answer on any of those recounts. It wasn't 2 or 3 different, it was considerably different each time.

Makes you wonder.

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there is three type of people those that can count and those that can't:roll:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rusty

Pencils don't bleed, perish or otherwise degrade in the warehouse. That's about it, really. You can use pen to fill out your postal vote and they give (sorry, lend) you a pen when you cast an early vote.

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Thanks Rusty,
That seems a reasonable explanantion, and I'm glad to hear you can use pen if you want. No conspiracy theory so far...

Cheers,

Perhaps next time there is an election you might like to take a pen or two and offer them around the polling booths...... could be a nice little earner! ;)

Here in the US our elections are controlled by county officials. Much like the rest of the planet, within the nation we have states or commonwealths. (a.k.a. provences) Each state has geo-political subdivisions called counties. (Smaller than a state but usually a larger land area than a city.) Each county has it's own election department. The rules of elections are basically the same nationwide, but the implementation differs by county.

For ballots we use paper, punch cards (Hollerith Code Cards or a modification of the standard format.) mechanical machines (As invented by Thomas Edison) and electronic machines. Some places have experimented with Internet access to casting ballots. I am uncertain of the future of internet balloting.

The problem with the first dubya election was with punch card ballots and a butterfly type of device to hold the ballot. The best way to describe it is to think of your local auto parts store. On the counter is the huge array of catalogs held in a special rack. When you request the distributor cap for that 1912 Hupmobile the store clerk goes through the catalog to find the appropriate part number for the 1912 Hupmobile distributor cap.

The buterfly ballot is similar. The first two pages may be the candidates for president, the next two pages may be for governor, etc. Between the two pages is an open column where the voter makes their selection. The voter takes a stylus or punch and make a hole to indicate their choice. As the pages of the butterfly ballot are turned, a different column on the punch card is exposed.

There are two basic problems with this ballot. First is punching the hole. If the stylus is dull or inserted into the guide hole a skew, punching a hole in the card is difficult. Florida being a state that the population is mostly newly wed or nearly dead, there were difficulties with a particular segemnt of the population using these ballots.

The second problem with these ballots was the layout of the names of the candidates. The top most hole was for the candndate on the top of the left page. The second hole was for the candndate on the top of the right page. It wasn't always obvious which candidate was assigned to which hole.

With all of that said, several newspapers obtained the ballots and did a re-count by hand many months after the election. The journalists re-count and regardless of the counting rules, their conclusion was that nothing would have changed.

Editorial comment
Most civilized people believe that any government must not interfere in the affairs of any church or religion. Unfortunately, the reverse is not true. Hense we have dubya.
End Editorial Comment

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rusty

Hello, Darlings;
........... Basically, as much gear as possible is prepared in advance for an election, and kept in storage for the big day. Pencils don't bleed, perish or otherwise degrade in the warehouse. That's about it, really. You can use pen to fill out your postal vote and they give (sorry, lend) you a pen when you cast an early vote.

As an aside, I've found the folks who work for the Australian and Victorian Electoral commissions to be extremely honest, diligent, committed both to the letter of the law and flexible if it means honouring the democratic sprirt. I'm sure I needn't point out the irony involved, given the results of their efforts.

Cheers,
Rusty.

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Rustry has it in one.

Short version:

Storage is the main issue, cost is another. Pencils have proved to be very reliable - if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Longer version, and a few related issues:

The AEC has around 8,000 polling places every federal election. I could not give you accurate figures on the number of pencils used. But it is considerable and they, and all other election supplies, have to be ready for an election that can be called at any time, but usually around 30 days after the PM visits the GG.

It may surprise some that the AEC has no more forward knowledge of the election being called than the general public ie via the media (however, things get pretty hot in the orgainsation as the time draws near, believe me). Hence the need to have all supplies stored and ready to go. It is a huge logistical exercise. Staff for instance - non-election period around 800 staff, building up to around 60,000 staff required on polling day).

I won't go into the IT issues - perhaps another time if anyone is interested.

And Rusty is right on the mark with AEC integrity. I have never worked for an organisation where so many of its staff are so passionate about their role - a fine organisation with a world-renowned reputation for electoral integrity and management.

Regards

Ken
(Recently retired AEC employee now having a ball making sawdust)

Pen vs Pencil

On Navy vessels, the Ship's Log is always filled out in pencil, and is also a legal document - many a court martial draws information from the Ship's Log.

Pencil may be erasable, but the paper fibres are still damaged, and 2. (and this is particularly important for ships, funnily enough), get the log wet and pen runs, pencil doesn't. Relevance to an election? Imagine just one electorate counting place has an alarm and the sprinklers are activated. If written in a substance that can run, imagine the challenges etc to the election result!