Wanted: thin, hardwearing, glossy finish for solidbody guitars

Hi all

Well for the past few months I've been using K&H's acrylic gloss clear spray for my funny little solidbody electric guitars, but now that winter is upon us I'm having problems with lots of bloom and clouding of the finish (especially over solid colours!) even after using IXL-Tastic heat lamps in my workshop to warm the bodies first. The acrylic is great for a clear finish over timber, but it does need about a week to harden enough to avoid fine scratches to the finish, and Crash Supplies where I buy the stuff have suggested a month for hardening would be a better idea!

I'm at the point where I'm thinking of farming out the finishing to someone else who's set up with spray gear to do the job. I'm guessing people who make furniture don't leave their stock out to dry for a month... they'd have a workshop full of pieces and nowhere to work. What's the industry standard for a thin glossy clear coat that resists scratching?

Also... I've thought about using a tung oil type product. At the timber and working with wood show there was a guy doing demos with an oil product, maybe Organoil. He was applying it with an oscillating orbital sander. I asked him how it would work for guitar bodies with cutaways and he said it would be too hard to work with in those areas. In the US people rave about Birchwood-Casey Tru-Oil. Has anyone here used it with good results? Would something like a car polisher for the flat areas and lots of elbow grease for the cutaways actually work?

Thanks in anticipation!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JupiterCreek

In the US people rave about Birchwood-Casey Tru-Oil. Has anyone here used it with good results?

---

I have a work in progress where I finished the neck in Tru-Oil. As it's a WIP, it hasn't been played yet, but so far it's really promising. The easiest thing to put on - wipe on, wipe off, buff with 0000 steel wool, let dry for a few minutes, repeat 6-7 times - and the feel is just fantastic.

Quote:

---

Would something like a car polisher for the flat areas and lots of elbow grease for the cutaways actually work?

---

You'd probably want something there for the polish to do its magic on besides bare wood. It might work on something exceptionally tight grained, like lignum vitae, but then again you probably wouldn't be building a solidbody out of it unless you wanted a hernia.

Organoil wouldn't give you the hardness you want, and if you did want that sort of finish I would go for hard shellac, EEE and wax, easy to apply in fiddly areas and probably a bit harder wearing than Organoil.
Can all be hand finished with little effort.
How hard is NC? that dries very quickly.

juiptercreek,
Have you considered Rustins floor coating (cant get much harder and a full gloss) or Rustins plastic coating which is ideal for table tops. Both products dry very hard and have a very high shine (full gloss). We have both products in store (www.carbatec.com.au Perth) 0893454522.

Gidday Jupiter Creek:)

lacquers are used to create impressive finishes on hand-crafted guitars like those made by Tom Ribbecke, one of the world's top makers of arched-top guitars.

Tom's work has been shown at the Smithsonian, and is marked by a mirror-like finish and a three-dimensional effect achieved by coloring the lacquer.

Before applying lacquer, it's a good idea to pour it through a filter to remove solid particles Lacquers are formulated to dry fast, so they should be sprayed on.

This process is one well worth looking into if you really wanna 'get into' finishing guitars...............theres pleantry of links around the forum that I'll give you a good start on spraying.

REgards Lou:)

Thanks for the replies!

carbatecwa... your server is returning an error at the moment but I'll try again later. The Rustins is acrylic so it should be tougher and harder than a urethane finish. Thanks for the tip! I see the phenomenally expensive MIK here in SA are listed as stockists so I'll ring them and see how their price compares to yours.

Lou.... this is going to sound lame, but the only rattle-can nitro I've been able to find on the web here in Australia is from VHT. None of the local auto parts stores keep stock and the agent hasn't replied to any of my 3 emails to them over the past 2 weeks. I've thought about buying a cheap compressor and jamb gun and learning to use spray equipment, but I only do a handful of bodies of various sizes per week so I'd spend more time cleaning the gun than spraying with it, hence my use of rattle-cans. I'm also not a big fan of the checking that seems to be a part of nitro finishes as they age. My Maton Mastersound had a ding in the neck that was repaired under warranty by Fretco, the warranty agent here in SA, and after a year it developed a fine checking. It's not the end of the world, and I know some people actually like the effect, but I sell my instruments to the US so I'd like to have a stable finish. If I ever find a local VHT stockist I will try the nitro just to see how it turns out though.

Edit:
I just made a few phone calls.... MIK don't do the Rustins in SA. Mirotone do a satin and a semi-gloss nitro in a rattlecan, I'll buy a can of each and report back! ;-)

Miratone. 2pk. You can sand and respray in about 20 minutes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JupiterCreek

I only do a handful of bodies of various sizes per week so I'd spend more time cleaning the gun than spraying with it, hence my use of rattle-cans.

---

A "handful" a WEEK? :eek::eek::eek: Mate, you need a spray rig. I've done exactly one electric in nitro with a spray setup, and am seriously considering getting a compressor + spray gun even though my output is more like a handful a decade!

Hi Ola

I make funny little guitars.... ukes in soprano, concert and tenor scale lengths, emandos, tenor guitars, bouzoukis... all solidbody electrics. I also make full sized electric guitars, and I fabricate a lot of my own parts like bridges, neckplates and control plates. The problem is having enough time to make the damn things fast enough, and at the moment spraying bodies is taking a lot of time, especially when I end up having to resand and respray.

I've spoken to a couple of furniture makers about getting them to do the spray finishing for me, but they seem fixated on polyurethane finishes and I need hard thin glossy finishes.

Traditionaly common or garden nitrocelulose laquer is what has been used on gituars.
It has advantages & disadvantages over other finishes but it is still what I would use.
It dries fast
It blends into itself
it is thin & hard
Once it is off its off
If you have a real stuff up wipe it off with thinner.

Yess it will bloom
but another coat when the conditions are better will pull he bloom out ( mostly)
bloom can be managed with retarder and heat treatment.

A mate who trained on piano finishing in melbourne recons even in winter they could get 2 coats on a day as long as it wasnt overcast.
They would put the pieces out in the sun ( winter remember ) till they were good & warm..... whip em inside & spray em straight away.... once the finish had flashed off... back out into the sun for another go..... no retarder used.

No need in summer.

If you are spraying a thermomiter and a hygrometer in the workshop are essential. you will soon learn to spray only when the temp and humidity are adequate.

after you have used nitro you will understand "why the sunburst finish is"
Why.... because with nitro you can.

cheers

Thanks all

I've spoken to the local VHT agent and they don't bring in their nitro based lacquer. Mirotone do a satin and semi-gloss. Does anyone know of a brand of rattle-can clear gloss nitro?

Soundman... I just added some coats of clear acrylic to the two bodies that gave me grief over the weekend. My setup is two IXL-Tastic 375 watt heat globes set about 1.5 metres apart, with the bodies about 700mm away and in the centre. I've got an alfoil covered sheet of cardboard directly behind where the bodies hang to reflect some heat and light. I warm the bodies up until they're warm to the touch before I start spraying. I scored an old 2Hp reverse cycle airconditioned for my workshop but I haven't gotten around to setting it up yet. When I visited the Maton factory last year the place was comfortably warm, 50% relative humidity, and a positive flow airconditioning system like an operating theatre... somehow I don't see my backyard shed emulating those conditions, but it sounds like your mate is succeeding with what he's got so it's possible!

acrylic lacquer has been used in the automotive industry for the last 40 plus years. Holden (GMH) used it on their vehicles up until about 5 years ago until they finally joined the rest of the industry and changed to baked enamel.

A lot of cars are still on thr road with Acrylic lacquer paint. It replaced nitrocellulose lacquer (duco) which was the finish on Holdens before. Duce has been around since 1924 when it was developed into a paint after the first world war (its close to being an explosive which they were trying for but ended up with this clear fast drying goo)

Nitrocellulose lacquer has one bad fault it hates sunlight and if its exposed to it it goes off real quick. Whites go yellow, clears go yellow then brown and crack. All of the colours fade and go chalky quickly. If you can remember back to the 50's most cars were patchy only basic colours and had to be polished frequently. Sticky tape is usually Nitro or ( cellulose tape ) and I'm sure you have seen old sticky tape on something.

When Holden released Acrylic Lacquer on their EH Holden it was advertised as the "magic mirror finish" and they boasted it did not need polishing for 2 years. It is based on perspec and does not get affected anywhere as easily as the old N/C. Its from this point metallic colours became available on cars widely, before that they were rare and those touched up in duco were messed up within weeks. Now you could have these colours and touch up the far superior Baked Enamels so they appeared undamaged.

Your supplier is correct A/L will take a month to dry actually its pretty dry in a month but takes up to 6 months depending on the time its done.

The only way for it to dry is by evaporation of the solvent and the slower ones in the thinner take ages to dry out. In summer with lots of hot days the time is shorter than in winter when there is little heat in the air.

You can avoid blushing problems by having a warm atmosphere, so using heat from some source is needed when its cold. Lamps warm OK but work best if they are shining onto the lacquer but if you are not careful you will blister the coats on the timber as the timber can't soak up the heat.

If you check out the smash shops you will see their booths are heated by convection heaters ( the air is warmed and put into the booth) They use heating lamps to dry the paint after it is applied, but this warms the metal and drys the paint from the inside out and greatly shortens the drying time. They also bump up the air heat in the booths and force it to dry at about 60C after spraying. Try a cheap fan heater to warm your area it will work a lot better than lamps.

Just a bit on blushing Its caused by the solvent taking the heat out of the air to evaporate itself, if there is not enough heat any moisture in the air is no longer kept there by any heat and it drops onto your paint surface and makes it go milky.

As Soundman said it will go if you put on another coat but you must be careful not to go over a coat with moisture on it or you end up with the water trapped in between the coats and the finish may end up with blisters in it (humidity blisters)

You wanted an answer to your problem, well there are better finishes that A/L especially if you need a hard shiny one. Lacquers require about 5 - 6 coats to become a proper serviceable finish (either acrylic or nitro). Put on properly they equal about 3 thousandths of an inch any less and you will probably break through to the underneath primer or colour if you are clearing. As you mentioned before it takes so long to dry, after 24 hours A/L can be easily damaged by pressing your finger into it it will leave a fingerprint.

Again Soundman's nitro drys a lot faster and harder you have to buff it the same day or you will have great trouble getting scratches out the next day. Its the easiest finish by far because it drys so fast, mess up and you can fix it in minutes. A/L on the other hand can be a bitch to fix as the thinner is so strong it will attack the previous coats as you put on more and then take ages to dry.

If you use any lacquer put on one coat at a time and let each one dry out at least 10 minutes between coats more if you can. The more they dry out the less solvent trapped underneath.

I like sinjins1111's idea the best, use a 2 pack enamel there are many to chose from, pick one which has a short set up time with a fast dry hardener and it will still be rock hard in a few hours. Two coats of a 2 pack enamel will give you the same thickness as 6 coats of lacquer and it will dry far harder than lacquer ever can and it can't be resoftened like lacquer, spill a strong solvent on lacquers and they remelt.

And it won't bloom.

Thanks durwood. More good info for me to digest!

Rob,

Try this site...they make a guitar laquer.

http://www.durobond.com.au/lacquers.htm

Cheers Martin

Just thought I should post a quick update.

I bought a couple of cans each of Miralac in Semi-gloss and Semi-satin. The semi-satin went on very nicely, but at this stage I've only done a small batch of necks in Austraian oak and a rebuild of a guitar neck in maple.

This coming week I'll be doing some bodies so I'll try the semi-gloss and report back with the results and some photos.

Thanks for the help and tips everyone!