finish newbie

hi all,

im in the process of building an entertainment unit out of Red Oak. See thread here: https://www.woodworkforums.com/f11/ba...chnique-211772

Regarding sanding prep for finsh. Ive done some up to 240 in hard to get areas before assmebly. I will be able to go back over them, it just gets the grunt work done. I have noticed with the Red Oak, that running your hand across the grain feels consistant, but slowly run a soft finger tip and even more evedent, a finger nail tip, there are smooth sections and then coarse sections. Like small tear out or such. I figure it is just the grain type.

I have heard the term sanding sealer used:

What is it?
Where to buy it?
Will it effect any type of finish?
will it help?

Secondly,

what is the recommended finish for someone like me that can not spray. Oil, tung oil? water based? I think ill keep the colour clear or close to and Id like satin finish I think. Open to sugestions

cheers
Serg

maybe im not asking the right questions??

I have used sanding sealer from Ubeaut, you can check out the website here, SANDING SEALER - Traditional non grain filling sealer

I have applied this to pieces on the lathe while turning by hand and also applied this on flat work before the final sanding and finish was applied. The main reason for doing this was to get the grain to standup and harden then sand again with the same or higher grit. For me it works better when I get to the 240 grit and above.

You can also use a mist of water over the surface to raise the grain and sand again with the same grit once the water has dried.

Neither of these methods of raising the grain will effect the type of finish you choose.

It does come down to personal preferences so this is very general comments based on what I have done. As for flat work I have used a wipe on poly, the Minwax brand which I was able to purchase from Masters as they have now gone might need to get another brand of wipe on poly. I have also used a water based clear poly applied using a brush with very light coats as this dries quickly compared to a mineral(oil) based poly with the same weather conditions.

Hi Serg,

You may not be getting answers because we all have our favourite finishes or because we have already posted our answers to similar questions. Basically, you need to choose a finish that gets you the result that you are looking for. If you let the forums know that result then you will get more response I suggest. For example, I love French Polishing because it provides a proven, long-lasting finish that really shows off the figure of the timber. Others love the look of Danish oil - satin finish, easy to apply (I use Rustins brand - some other brands are not so good but I do not know them all). Some love the burnishing oils (HBO) and there are whole threads and experts on here who promote that. There is Livos oil, which has some strong proponents (I haven't used so cannot comment), and Tung oil etc.etc. Wipe-on poly has its strong supporters.

Search the forums and you will find examples of what these finishes look like and be able to communicate with those that love them. If you look at the Forums home page you will see an advert for Neil Ellis' Polishing handbook https://www.woodworkforums.com/f190/p...60#post2008281 - it is good value in my opinion.

BTW that book also tells you all about sanding sealers - there are more than one type. The UBeaut shellac-based one can be effectively used under many finishes, but is not needed in all situations.

Good luck

David

I finished my entertainment unit with Malouf's mix. (Google Sam Malouf for info on his work.) Great advantages of his method are :-ease of application; the finished surface can be governed by the number of applications; very easy to repair any surface damage.

Just a suggestion.
Bruce

thanks for the replys guys.

where my surface is "rough", looking closer it appears if very small portions of the grain are missing? I guess you could call it tear out? Will the sanding sealer or water method, bring this grain up and therefore able to be sanded flush with the surface?

ill try and get a picture next time im at it.

I finish sanded the EU to #400 grit. At the #320 grit stage I sanded, then wiped with clean warm water, waited to dry then #320 again. The grain definitely stood up and was rougher after water wipe, but It did not solve my issue of grain/timber missing from the surface. I can only put it down to the timber type, how it was sawn, and my working of it.

I have put the first coat on. Going with the "Maloof mix" of one part pure Tung oil, one part boiled Linseed oil, and one part Polyurethene (I used Cabot's clear oil based Polyurethene in Satin finish)

Im going to do 4 coats of this, then some finish coats.

I have read of the "Maloof finish mix" to be equal parts pure Tung oil and boiled Linseed oil with bees wax shaving added.

No idea how much wax to add?

I guess ill have to figure that one out

Lovely looking unit - well done. Re-reading my response above I see I rather missed the point. Sorry about that. Some, hopefully, more informative comments:

Many timbers, the true "oaks" included can have very different densities of wood within them. True oaks as well as the Australian Sheoak and Bulloak also have large medullary rays that are of different density to the rest of the wood. When you have that situation the sharpness of your tools and the direction of cut are critical. Less than razor sharp or the wrong direction (which can change within the one board) lead to tear out. Welcome to the wonder of wood.

There are two different types of sanding sealer that I know of: Cellulose sanding sealer - often used under spray finishes, and; shellac sanding sealer (such as the UBeaut brand) which are very dilute shellac based sealers.

As far as I know, oil-based finishes depend upon being absorbed into the pores of the timber to work properly. As such, one should not use a sanding sealer under an oil finish I would have thought, though it is great under a wax finish or shellac finish.

I have NO IDEA about Maloof finishes BUT beware beeswax. It may smell lovely but it remains sticky and dust attacting all its life. Carnauba wax is much better and will last longer without attracting dirt or fingerprints. eBay has plenty of suppliers.

There you are, some more useless information!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Husq2100

thanks for the replys guys.

where my surface is "rough", looking closer it appears if very small portions of the grain are missing? I guess you could call it tear out? Will the sanding sealer or water method, bring this grain up and therefore able to be sanded flush with the surface?

ill try and get a picture next time im at it.

---

It does sound like tear-out. If you bought the timber dressed, then it's been through a planer. The planer will often tear grain out where the grain reverses.

A lot of timbers have most of the grain going in one direction but every now and then there will be a bit going the other way. This is called 'interlocked grain' or various other similar names. It can be decorative ('curly' or figured timbers etc) but generally it's unwanted and just a pain to finish. You can plane it carefully by hand ok but the industrial planing equipment is unsophisticated and will just tear a lot of it out.

To deal with the torn out grain you need to fill it. Your current approach doesn't involve any grain filling so the problem will persist through the finishing stages.

There is a lot of confusion about the products used in initial prep. Basically, you have:

Sealers
Sanding sealers
Grain fillers
Gap fillers

Some products will do two or more of these things.

Marketers tend to blur the lines and make it difficult to know where a product fits in, which may not be accidental.

To make it worse, most companies are dropping these products from their line-ups because most DIY finishers don't know what they are or why they should use them - and the rapidly shrinking number of us who do know what fine finishing is don't make up a critical mass to keep the product lines viable.

So generally, a sanding sealer has sealing qualities and is designed to get a smooth sanded finish - mainly by stiffing up the little furry bits.

Then, with a timber like red oak you will need to grain fill (I'm assuming you want a fine, smooth finish because you've chosen an mcm design).

If you have tiny craters from the tear-out then the grain filler will not fill these so you will need to gap fill.

Then you are ready for your finish coating.

Sorry, I can't recommend any products specifically because I really just use spray products these days, which are not suitable for application by hand.

Cheers
Arron

I'm having problems with my 3rd coat not drying 100%

My mix is 1/3 pure Tung oil, 1/3 pale BOILED linseed oil, 1/3 cabots clear satin polyurethane oil.

I sander 1200 grit after 1 and 2nd coats

these first 2 coats were left to dry many days before next and I feel definitely dry. My 3rd coat I was even more diligent at the wiping off process. It's been 2 weeks now and still slightly tacky. Not enough to leave a finger print or residue on fingers but not dry.

the only thing I can think off is because I mixed all my ingredients at once the drying agents have wicked or evaporated out Of the mix?

thoughts?

what can I do?

Serg, I can't imagine what has caused this problem. I have used this mix for years without any trouble. Maybe scraping off the problem coat with a cardscraper, sand lightly ad then apply a newly mixed coat.

Good luck,

Bruce

I dont think its my mix.

I turned the EU over as I had not done any coats on the feet bottom and on the base of the unit inside the stiffening rails. I stirred thougherly, applied a liberal amount, let sit for 10-15 min and then wiped off. This coat was 100% dry within 12hrs!

I know the first coat will always dry the quickest

I also found that the remaining "tackiness" on the 3rd coat is worse on a rainy day (today)..... humidity..

I can only sumise that I did not wipe back the 3rd coat or even all 3 properly. I think the key to this process is to wipe it off like you are trying to remove all you put on. Seems counter intuitive. Im guessing is its a multi layer made up of very very fine coats?