Sawstop professional table saw

Finally managed to save bit of $$ for a table saw upgrade
Got the professional table saw with 52" rails and mobile base

Unpacking
Saw comes in a cardboard box on a pallet.. Packaged it weights about 200kg... So unless you know what you're doing and / or have proper equipment definitely need a mate to help unload..
Straight on opening box you'll be greeted with an pictorial pamphlet explaining how to prep it up and lift it off the pallet.. there are also instructions how to mount sawstop mobile base if you have one
Simply follow the instructions and tablesaw will be up in no time

Putting it together...
man those guys though of everything... All bolts and screws and pretty much everything you need for the assembly is in a colour coded blister pack. The pictionary instruction manual shows you step by step how to do everything.. comparing to other tools, this one was a breeze...

Now some pro's / con's

Pro's
Easy assembly
Table saw was fairly aligned out of the box... Digital alignment tool was showing 0.1mm discrepancy... table saw has some fine tuning bolts which helped alignment.. Got it to 0.006 accuracy... which is really good .. and that was done in under 15 mins..
Comes with a decent riving knife and a nice guard (two separate item) which can be really easy removed by lifting single lever..
Rails are heavy duty as well as a fence...
Blade replacement is very quick

Con's
Not much to be honest..
Alignment of the riving knife to the blade is a bit fiddly (requires a drop of blade to get to the bolts...)
Don't really fancy blade tilting away from the fence... that makes all the off cut bits sitting on a blade, and if you're cutting small pieces they will most likely jump toward you...
The dust hose connector is a bit short so hose might need a clamp to hold it in place which doesn't really work for me as I'm moving hose from tool to tool depending of requirements...

Conclusion
Well haven't used it much (few test cuts and bit of cutting last few days) but from what i've used it at the moment, it is a huge improvement to my old one..
Solid top is well machined and smooth... wheel base is excellent.. with well planned leverage, lifting and lowering the saw is very easy and smooth.. for something that is close to 200 kg that is pretty good..
The whole thing is solidly build with a great dust control ... Comparing to standard chinese made ones on the market this one is really impressively built..
The safety it provides is excellent but hopefully I will never have opportunity to test it...http://d1r5wj36adg1sk.cloudfront.net...es/rolleye.gif

Photos, or it didn't happen :;

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Prle77

The whole thing is solidly build with a great dust control ...

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Sorry but the dust control is, like all table saws, a long way from adequate.

The 4" duct on the cabinet simply cannot transmit enough air to remove fine (invisible) dust at the source irrespective of what size DC is attached to that saw.
The overhead dust collection ducting is also too small.

A minimum of a 150 mm duct at the cabinet and 100 mm on the overhead guard is required to control fine dust.
The guard collector is also poorly designed. The collection needs to be placed towards the front of the blade to maximise dust capture.

I find it curious that a company that prides itself on safety haven't bothered to implement simple, easily implemented, dust collection improvements on their machinery.

Photos coming soon... still sorting out the shed (adjusting side table for the height etc..)

BobL
Regarding the dust collection... I guess you're right.. but in saying that the difference between sawstop and other table saws i've seen is that sawstop has encased underneath to a very small crevice... (photos to follow) so the 100mm hose is actually more efficient than on any other table saw I've seen ... Whether it is sufficient... i'm not sure but it is a definite improvement in dust collection
It has optional overhead dust collection kit (reserved for later purchase as budget did not allow it)
Done some cutting today (made expansion table for the back of the saw... and had to cut groves for the mitre slider...
in order to do that I had to remove guard and replace it with riving knife (both supplied with the saw) and that was a breeze... lift the zero clearance panel, lift the leaver, remove blade guard put riving knife in, lower the lever and put back zero clearance panel...
all in all took 20 seconds or less....
and no tools required...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Prle77

Photos coming soon... still sorting out the shed (adjusting side table for the height etc..)

BobL
Regarding the dust collection... I guess you're right.. but in saying that the difference between sawstop and other table saws i've seen is that sawstop has encased underneath to a very small crevice... (photos to follow) so the 100mm hose is actually more efficient than on any other table saw I've seen ... Whether it is sufficient... i'm not sure but it is a definite improvement in dust collection .

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Sorry to push this but short of using a particle detector there is no way that anyone can say whether the dust collection is better or not. The collection of visible dust is not that relevant as far as health issues go as its the invisible dust that matters.

Enclosing the saw blade to a small crevice is completely the wrong way to go in terms of air flow. The bottom line is irrespective of why has been done inside a machine a 4" collection port is comes up 250% too small in terms of the volume of air necessary to control fine dust. Even if the 4" duct is replaced with a 6" duct that is still no guarantee of dust control - the cabinet has to be open enough to allow enough air to flow through the cabinet and into the 6" port. Every cabinet saw I have ever looked at could use a couple of large vents in the cabinet diametrically opposite the port location - this will generate the air flow needed to capture and extract the fine dust.

Hi BobL

I guess the main issue is that none of the dust collectors on the market that standard woodworker could afford (thus excluding professional and industrial grade equipment) actually come with 6" outlets.
All of the ones I could see on the market use standard 4" hose. Because of that to make it more compatible out of the box to your dusty, most machine making manufactures are supplying their machines with a 4" outlet.
Until 6" becomes standard, I think we can rule out any proper dust collection . At least capture of fine particles.

So although dust collection might not be satisfactory in fine dust region (Untested and unproven... have no proper equipment to do that) in comparison to other table saws I've used, the removal of visible particles is much better.. I could assume that the less you see of visible particles the less of invisible particles too... (Ie the saw that blows visible particles towards the user will most likely have more invisible particles going than the one that actually doesn't blow visible particles towards the user... )
But again.. cannot argue something without proper testing...
Alen

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Prle77

Hi BobL

I guess the main issue is that none of the dust collectors on the market that standard woodworker could afford (thus excluding professional and industrial grade equipment) actually come with 6" outlets.
All of the ones I could see on the market use standard 4" hose. Because of that to make it more compatible out of the box to your dusty, most machine making manufactures are supplying their machines with a 4" outlet. Until 6" becomes standard, I think we can rule out any proper dust collection . At least capture of fine particles.

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Most of the 3HP units come with 8" openings and 4" adapters and it's relatively easy to discard the adapters and make a bell mouth entrance adapter down to 6", and implement 6" dust extraction. Details of bell mouth ports are available in the Dust Forum. Even the modification of a generic 2 HP DC is relatively straight forward see https://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=171247 . Although the flow rate from 2HP DCs DC is not quite that required is it a significant improvement over the stock item. For all practical purposes on higher quality machinery I'd be seriously looking at a 4HP Clearvue Cyclone DC which comes standard with a 6 or 8" inlet.

Quote:

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So although dust collection might not be satisfactory in fine dust region (Untested and unproven... have no proper equipment to do that) in comparison to other table saws I've used, the removal of visible particles is much better.. I could assume that the less you see of visible particles the less of invisible particles too... (Ie the saw that blows visible particles towards the user will most likely have more invisible particles going than the one that actually doesn't blow visible particles towards the user... )
But again.. cannot argue something without proper testing...
Alen

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Your assumption is generally but not always correct, especially in the cases where machinery (like table saws and lathes) generates high speed air movement.
Visible chips have their own movement behaviour based on their momentum (mass x velocity) whereas fine dust particles act like a gas and the move where ever air currents move.

The best practical example I can provide is with the dust levels testing coming on a lathe.
When turning even small pieces, a significant number of shavings were not captured by my DC and eventually I'm standing ankle deep is shavings but during the entire testing period at head height the fine dust generated by making all these shavings is the same as the air being drawn into the shed by the DC. The shavings represent far less of a hazard than the fine does so these can be swept or sucked up later and then the DC

On a table saw the amount of fine dust spun off the front of the table by the turning blade is very high - where ever you can feel some air movement there will be dust.

Photos as promised :)
Done extension table's on the side and at the back... The side one is no longer required... But kept it as I'm using it as a work bench too...
Back one was actually done on the this same saw in couple of minutes... :)
Cut it and did the mitre channels in a split second... That guard removal lever is a great thing...


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Edited: Additional info
Installed the digital fence measurement.. and once aligned and compared to the built in one .. the factory setting was 0.3 mm off...
Also the blade angle alignment was spot on... 45 deg and 90 deg on the dot... didn't have to do anything with that...
So far quite impressed with it...
It is a bit noisier than the old one.. but then again it is much bigger saw...

Would you recommend sawstop as a first cabinet saw to a beginner

Yes and no.

My Men’s Shed bought one of these, the first version available in Australia but the Contractor’s version, but essentially a very similar unit. I was on the sub-committee that investigated what type of new table saw for our shed.

We really went to town on table saws and in an environment where people who would be using this saw, even after being inducted in how to operate it, may make simple mistakes, it came out as the best unit safety wise, in regard to fingers or whatever being possibly cut.

We purchased the Contractors version of this saw, which is currently listed at $2,850, this is not cheap. By the time you add a few bits and bobs together you are starting to look closer to $3,500. So from a beginners point of view with one person using it, that is a heck of a lot of money for something with which you may decide wasn’t or isn’t your scene.
https://iwoodlike.com/product/table-...contractor-saw

However that cost pales in comparison to the saw in question, it is listed at $4,550

https://iwoodlike.com/product/featur...t-saw-pcs31230

As far as the safety aspect with regard to the saw’s ability to stop before harm is done, yep it works, our shed did it. Once the saw is stopped by the safety mechanism, you need to get two things. One, another cartridge, two, another saw blade. Compared to missing digits, priceless.

For a 254mm saw it is quite solid, quite accurate and quite powerful. Ours is worked quite hard and has done so since these were on the market, which must be coming up to 2 years now.

I would suggest one of the ubiquitous Taiwanese or Chinese 254mm contractors or cabinet saws second hand, would be the way to go to get your feet wet. But if safety is your concern, then this ticks one very good box. Do a search on this forum for table saws, there are quite a few threads that have lots of great information about what you think you may need in a saw and what is desirable. As you are in the Brisbane area, maybe someone could let you look at what they have and let you have a feel, it really makes a huge difference if you use something first.

Everything that Prl77 has mentioned is spot on. Especially the colour coded blister packs of nuts, bolts and what have you. Our saw was also pretty much spot on with regard to 45º and 90º cuts.

We also built a timber extension out the back with trenches done exactly as Prl77 has done. Dust extraction is not the greatest as it does not have an enclosed cabinet underneath, my heavily modified dust collection on my Triton 2000 is better.

We have a Dado blade set with our saw, which is great for the times when we need to do bulk trenching. However the not so good news is that you also need to get a special wider safety cartridge for the Dado set.

Prl77, if you notice that the blade starts to get a little difficult to raise after lowering it right down, or close to the bottom. You will need to get underneath with a vacuum cleaner and suck the debris from the worm drive near the motor that raises and lowers the saw blade. Do this before it becomes quite stiff, life will be much easier if you do. Difficult to get to, but not impossible. Although your saw internals may be different to ours, maybe………

Mick.

Thanks for the tips mick

Hi Optimark / and everyone

After now some time of using the sawstop..
impressions

Still impressed

Pros and cons

Pro's
Still standing by all the pros mentioned in my first post

Cons
As mentioned by BobL and multiple others.. dust collection is not really 100%

Although i do have 2 HP dusty connected to the saw.. sawdust still accumulates at the bottom.. so over time as Mich suggested it is required to do thorough cleanup..
As I do that quite often I did not experience stiffening in rising the blade.. but again.. I am a bit anal with keeping the saw clean
The dust collection at the top (on the blade guard) is almost a gimmick.. why almost.. well it kinda works but not fully
Multiple design flaws..
1) the supplied connector for the guard hose has the smaller connection hose attachment at 90 degrees.. so lots of suction loss there
2) the mouth on the guard is quite small.. so another suction reducer ...

So basically with heavy run i did manage to block that thing.. and yes dusty was connected and running... in such occasion, the coat hanger wire pushed from the other side did the job

I do have to admit that the above problem might be slightly overstated due to my current setup where although I do have 2HP dusty, there is some suction loss due to use of separate cyclon thingy magicky and the current length of the hose

I am looking into getting 3HP dusty in the near future which should hopefully alleviate above mentioned issue or at least reduce

Other than that ...

one note
During the time of owning the saw, I have moved place... having the wheel base installed helped a lot as the table saw is quite heavy.. but the move also uncovered one thing...

The original sawstop lifting design is good but has two big design flows

1) The whole stopping thing relies on a small 5-6 mm pin.. pin as a pin is strong enough but the weld... weld is the issue.. its been welded in such way where hole was drilled through the bar.. pin pushed and only one side welded and ground flush.. which leaves for very nice finish but very small amount of weld left.. during the move.. i had to push saw some 30 metres down concrete path. and such vibrations caused pin to break off... so no more break.. Supplier was very kind and replaced the bar under warranty extremely quickly (over the counter replacement) so I was able to fix that straight away..
2) the above mentioned bar and the rest of the wheely mech is made out of mild steel.. so during the above failure and even replacing the failed part.. wheel brake could still not catch.. Upon further inspection i've discovered that the other end of the bar was actually bent outwards so could not catch the pin.. Slight pressure has fixed that...


Now in saying the above.. that problem had nothing to do with the quality of the sawstop itself. Furthermore.. It survived heavy moving and roughness of transport and everything and it is still aligned as before...

Finally
So far i have seen numerous demos during various presentations of sawstop.. And I can say one thing...

Most common comment is " but how much it cost to replace cartridge and a blade"

My answer is simple... I had a wood turning accident where a nicely sizeable piece of red gum manage to come in contact with my nose.. at high speed... at close proximity..
Took me off work for a full week...
Before I had purchased sawstop (and the main reason why i did buy it) had another accident on a previous table saw.. where due to a brain fart my thumb came in close proximity with the side of running blade... causing severe loss of skin.. which took my hand off duty for about a month

I can tell you one thing... you might cry about ruined blade and cartridge.. but trust me ... NOT LOOSING fingers, thumbs etc.. does not compare to any cost..
Would gladly swap tens of blades if they save me even once from the pain and downtime ...
It is not always about money.. people have to look at their health first..

i might sound as a salesman but i've seen it in action and i did experience near thumb loss.. so any kind of protection that will prevent that is welcome by me..

We bought the SawStop Professional for our Men's Shed around a year ago. As Prie77 said in his original post, the setup process was a dream due to the excellent instructions and colour-coded parts.

Would I recommend this to a first time user. Yes, unquestionably. Ours has been a huge hit with everyone who has used it. As its most frequent user I can only say that I wish I had room for one in my own workshop. I have a Festool CS50 which I love and which is very accurate, but I'd spend the extra money to get a Sawstop in a heartbeat.

Over the year we have had one 'firing'. Replacement cost of cartridge and SS 40 tooth Titanium blade (together) was $200. No quibble about the cost. The event did not involve flesh contact, but another time things might be different.

The 4 inch dust collection hose comes through the wall of the saw and up to just below the blade. It's better than our previous saw but a lot of dust still bypasses the chute. That's about the only downside I can think of.

Brian