Powered HALF-FACE Dust Masks...probably an update required from the brains trust

Firstly, definitely NOT looking for comments on powered full face shields.

It's been a couple of years since there was a thread on powered dust masks, so I guess an update is in order.

I'm after a powered half-face mask, but there don't seem to be too many options that I can find.

I use a 3M P2 HF mask which is very comfortable and keeps out Ammonia fumes and cat farts, so is pretty effective. However, for long term use in the warmer months there is the inevitable sweat problem. These can be had significantly cheaper from Setons (no surprise there eh Carbatec?). These masks seem to last between 6-12 months with the use that I give them.

I suppose the first thing to get out of the way is how much will a powered mask mitigate the sweat problem? If the answer is "not much" then I'm blessed if I'm going to invest $500+ in something like a PafTec mask. The reason I wonder about this is that there is still contact between the face and the silicone (or whatever) of the mask, and no fresh air will necessarily reach that (and nor should it, if it's forming a proper seal). So the whole idea may be an oxymoron.

All I can turn up so far:
Paftec from Carbatec for almost $600!
Economy from Carbatec or Timbecon
Stacks of full-face jobbies from 3M, Triton, Trend etc which I do not require (nor want the bulk of)

The other thing that concerns me is leads dangling around the place for belt mounted options. The Paftec is a behind the neck system, but apart from the rather high price, that would interfere with my preferred type of ear muffs which are also behind the neck to allow for hat/cap.

Hard to get on with, ain't I?

I can understand that these types of masks have their uses especially where a worker goes into a dusty environment where there is no dust extraction or ventilation but otherwise I don't know why anyone would bother with these types of masks in a fixed workshop situation.

If an operator is after wood allergy protection then these masks are ineffective at protecting eyes and exposed skill which can be a problem

If dust extraction and ventilation are setup right in a workshop there should be no need for any masks except in extreme circumstances in which a full face powered mask should be employed.

Anyone feeling like the need for a mask just to top off their Effective dust dust extraction can just use a passive paper based mask.

Half baked workshop dust extraction should be topped off with a full face powered mask.

I like the economy mask and use it pretty much all the time when I'm hand sanding (would much rather have a nice down-draft bench, but we can't have everything) or routing or using any other messy power tool that I can't get good extraction to. Definitely much cooler inside it than a paper mask and the silicone seals very well, even with a week of stubble.
I'm sometimes wearing it for several hours at a time and, while calling a big chunk of plastic and silicone hanging off your face pleasant is a stretch, it's not uncomfortable and my face stays dry (once the batteries start dying you'll get some condensation inside from your breath).
The cord isn't a big issue for me, I have the battery pack in my back pocket (broke the belt clip) and that keeps the cord close to my body, but you can always run it under your shirt.

EDIT: I should also add that, given the size of the mask relative to a human nose, glasses don't sit where they normally would. I wear mine anyway because they're prescription (you get used to looking up a bit to see properly) but anything involving flying bits of stuff means the full face shield goes on as well

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Originally Posted by BobL

I can understand that these types of masks have their uses especially where a worker goes into a dusty environment where there is no dust extraction or ventilation but otherwise I don't know why anyone would bother with these types of masks in a fixed workshop situation.

If an operator is after wood allergy protection then these masks are ineffective at protecting eyes and exposed skill which can be a problem

If dust extraction and ventilation are setup right in a workshop there should be no need for any masks except in extreme circumstances in which a full face powered mask should be employed.

Anyone feeling like the need for a mask just to top off their Effective dust dust extraction can just use a passive paper based mask.

Half baked workshop dust extraction should be topped off with a full face powered mask.

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BobL,

There is one area of woodworking where there has yet to be an effective dust collection system devised, and that is Woodturning, especially when it comes to sanding on a wood lathe. Many people have tried various dust collection devices for use with a woodlathe (e.g. the "Big Gulp" and similar devices) but none of them are effective, and many of them get in the way of the operator's vision, or they get in the way of the Operator's safe use of the lathe tools. In addition, when using a woodlathe it's desirable to protect yourself (especially your eyes and face) from larger chips, splinters and other bits of wood that will go flying when something goes wrong.

I think that one of the powered full face masks is almost essential when woodturning if you want eye protection, impact protection for the face, and clean air to breath.

Many woodturners start out by using a simple full face mask to provide eye and face protection, and wear a passive dust mask under the full face mask. After a while many woodturners graduate to one of the powered full face masks so that they are only wearing one item of safety kit instead of multiple items, and usually they are also choosing to go the powered full face mask route to overcome mask fogging problems that are often inherent with the unpowered full face masks.

The day that someone with the right knowledge and skills designs a cost effective and successful dust collection system for wood lathes, will be the day that woodturners will be able to stop having to use full face powered dust masks.

Regards,

RoyG

Bob, it's not just for the workshop, it's for any circumstance where I may come across dust, such as working outside or in somebody else's shed that may not have good DE. Even if there is a breeze the dust can still be there for a short while (and I may not be able to take proper directional advantage of the breeze).

In the workshop I use the mask for hand-sanding, which I try to limit (and use a Big Gulp on the DE), filing/sanding the villaboard that I spoke of a couple of weeks ago, etc, and especially when working with solvents et al. There are a number of tools where the dust extraction isn't what it could be but there's nothing I can do about it (tool design change required) such as track saws, freehand routers, even the mitre saw as we've previously discussed with its invisible dust spraying around.

Now I understand that invisible dust is still hanging around for long periods after I've finished dust making, and so are the fumes from solvents, which is why I want a mask that I can wear for longer periods until I vacate the shed, you see. After I've done the shed extensions I want to install some air scrubbers, and I'll also have much better cross flow ventilation.

The mask I'm using now is P2. I don't find that the paper based masks give a proper seal, particularly if I haven't had a shave for a couple of days (which seems to be happening more and more :roll:).

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Originally Posted by RoyG

There is one area of woodworking where there has yet to be an effective dust collection system devised, and that is Woodturning,

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True Roy, but I don't have to worry about it - not likely to get a lathe, but yes a full face jobbie is the go there.

Is this the sort of thing you ar enquiring about

http://www.rockler.com/power-air-respirator

Or maybe its the same as the 'economy' - stupid ipad is misbehaving so I cant check.

Yes, that sort of thing. That one comes with Chinese instructions apparently....

It does look very similar to the Economy from memory.

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Originally Posted by RoyG

BobL,

There is one area of woodworking where there has yet to be an effective dust collection system devised, and that is Woodturning, especially when it comes to sanding on a wood lathe. Many people have tried various dust collection devices for use with a woodlathe (e.g. the "Big Gulp" and similar devices) but none of them are effective, and many of them get in the way of the operator's vision, or they get in the way of the Operator's safe use of the lathe tools. In addition, when using a woodlathe it's desirable to protect yourself (especially your eyes and face) from larger chips, splinters and other bits of wood that will go flying when something goes wrong.

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I agree wood turning is one of the dustiest things that is done by DIY WW, but I disagree that dust collection is a lost cause for most cases of woodturning.

The problem is that turners are fooled by chips flying all over the place. However these are far less likely to create allergies or health issues than the finer dust.

If a true 1000 CFM is setup behind the lathe, that is equivalent to a cube of 2.5 ft per side, or a half sphere of about 2 ft radius PER SECOND , of air (and dust) being removed.

I have done this on my lathe and setup up my particle detector next to my head and run it while turning and sanding objects up to 300 mm long and 250 in diameter and I could not detect any sub 5 micron dust above "outside shed level background levels". While I'm turning behind me about 3m away is a 1.2m wide doorway that I keep open and this generates a very good cross flow between the door and the DC collection point.

If I put the particle detector near my elbow there are often small puffs of sub 5 micron dust detected but as soon a I pause to reposition sandpaper or tools the dust disappears.

There are heaps of chips flying every where so every now and then I stop and vacuum these up with the "floating 100 mm duct" that I use on my BS, Linisher and grinder. I have run like this for over a couple of hours and at no point has fine dust in the shed been detected above background.

I agree if the objects are larger than the one I describe above that more than 1000 CFM will be needed, but that size covers all pen work and a significant proportion of what most DIY turners do.

To get the 1000 CFM I'm using a 3HP DC, 5m of 6" ducting, 3 x 90º and one Y junctions, and a Bell Mouth Hood. The last one is quite significant for two reasons, the first being it improves the efficiency of air grabbing by about 10% over a naked/open duct and about 5% over a Big Gulp, but more importantly it is more directional than a Big Gulp whereby it generates a higher air speed towards itself at a further distance thus being able to capture dust from further out in front (rather that from the side) than the Big Gulp.

For serious wood turners that regularly turn objects bigger that the one I describe I recommend setting up a small turning room, or large cupboard or curtained off area, with an opening low down behind the operator, and putting the lathe inside that enclosure and venting the entire enclosure up high behind the lathe. This will create a very specific cross flow of clean air between the operator and the work and restrict the spread of dust into the rest of the shed. The latter is poorly understood by most woodworkers especially where short burst work is involved. The router or TS might only run for 10 seconds but it fills the shed with fine dust which exposes the worker for the rest of the day. Capturing that dust directly or restricting its escape so that it does not contaminate the rest of the work environment is the way to go.

I know there are folks out there with no amps and half a power point that want to turn 3ft burls - in that case yes a full face mask, or maybe consult a shrink? :)

Is there anything for those of us who have beards and wear glasses? I've had a beard since 1990 and its not coming off.

Thanks

Ross

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Originally Posted by old1955

Is there anything for those of us who have beards and wear glasses? I've had a beard since 1990 and its not coming off.

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I've had mine since 1971.

Good dust extraction works otherwise its a full face shield.

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Originally Posted by old1955

Is there anything for those of us who have beards and wear glasses? I've had a beard since 1990 and its not coming off.

Thanks

Ross

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My beard is about the same age as Bob's, and the wife says it must stay. I have used rubber, twin-filter passive respirators over 20 years, for woodworking and in the gardening trade. They need to be fitted firmly, but will seal quite well over a beard - the test is to take a quick, deep breath and you should feel the mask suck onto your face. Activated filters are available to catch chemical vapours. The firm fit can get uncomfortable after a couple of hours, and I find the sawdust irritates my eyes, so I mainly use a Triton helmet respi. This is also better than earmuffs or plugs for noise protection, and is not as warm in hot weather as you might imagine.

Bob's posts on dust collection over recent times have convinced me that I should invest in a serious DC system after I rebuild my shed. It seems to be difficult to catch the dust from a table saw or mitre saw, and I don't have room for the separate enclosure suggested by Bob - Would a Big Gulp or similar hood be made more effective by setting up an array of low speed air jets to blow the dust towards the hood?

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Originally Posted by robgran

My beard is about the same age as Bob's, and the wife says it must stay. I have used rubber, twin-filter passive respirators over 20 years, for woodworking and in the gardening trade. They need to be fitted firmly, but will seal quite well over a beard - the test is to take a quick, deep breath and you should feel the mask suck onto your face. Activated filters are available to catch chemical vapours. The firm fit can get uncomfortable after a couple of hours, and I find the sawdust irritates my eyes, so I mainly use a Triton helmet respi. This is also better than earmuffs or plugs for noise protection, and is not as warm in hot weather as you might imagine.

Bob's posts on dust collection over recent times have convinced me that I should invest in a serious DC system after I rebuild my shed. It seems to be difficult to catch the dust from a table saw or mitre saw, and I don't have room for the separate enclosure suggested by Bob - Would a Big Gulp or similar hood be made more effective by setting up an array of low speed air jets to blow the dust towards the hood?

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The big Gulp hood is not as effective as a bell mouth hood - the bell mouth is discussed often on this forum

Using air jets to direct air flow is fraught with problems - in most cases all it does is stir the dust up. For real fine dust all that is needed to move it is low pressure differences and it will drift with the moving air.