Ivory Where I Stand

I did not want to distract from the original thread https://www.woodworkforums.com/showth...97#post1799597 So I started a new thread to voice my opinion.

This is what I am quoting from, post number 13 and 14 from the above thread.

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Originally Posted by wheelinround

......I see a waste of Ivory world wide from what has been collected from poachers ivory stock piles and whats done with it all its burnt, now thats a waste.http://d1r5wj36adg1sk.cloudfront.net...lies/anoyd.gif

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Originally Posted by fudo133

......And definitely in agreement over those ivory stockpiles. SO much material wasted!

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Any Ivory collected from a poacher by a government that is preventing poaching of Ivory needs to be burnt. If a government sells or gives away the Ivory that was collected by a poacher this gives the Ivory a monetary value and yes even if it government gives it away there will be a value to it. Once you put a value to Ivory it becomes very difficult to prevent poaching.

I should also state here that it is not the governments that are trying to stop poaching that created a value to Ivory.

BUT The argument from the poachers would be the government is selling the Ivory that they take from us, they are no different than us.

The Ivory trade needs to be killed and one way that would help, is when Ivory becomes worthless.

We should not be concern if this is burnt as it has no value.

What I am doing now as an individual is voicing my opinion, and stating that Ivory is worthless. When we as a community agree that Ivory is worthless poaching will end.

Maybe I am seeing this as being very simply and I hope it is.

And what is to become of the ivory and skins from government organized elephant and hippo culls?
It seems a waste to just destroy such high quality materials when they could be used to produce beautiful objects, thereby, to some extent 'honoring' the animals they came from...

Admittedly i come from the viewpoint that the only way to save animals like elephants and rhinos is to more or less turn them into an expensive commodity.
To legalize a trade in materials 'taken' from them, and to establish both publicly and privately funded breeding programs to keep 'supply up' in captive populations to allow wild ones to recover.

In the case of Rhinos, 'farming' is already being done by a few people in africa, (apparently out of genuine concern for the species)...and also so that they can have a sustainable supply of rhino horn, since unlike ivory, rhino horn can be continually harvested without having to kill or mutilate the animal in the process, even though as yet they can't legally sell it.

You're missing the entire point of Christos' post . If anyone sells ivory, government or poacher, it gives it value. If you give it away people will use it for stuff and then sell that stuff, which gives it value. If it has value it will be poached. The only way to stop the slaughter by poachers is to remove the value. If they can't sell it they won't waste time, effort and money obtaining it. I agree, ivory is a beautiful material. Some of the early Japanese carvings are exquisite. But personally I don't feel the need to own anything made from ivory. Plenty of other beautiful materials out there.

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Originally Posted by NCArcher

You're missing the entire point of Christos' post . If anyone sells ivory, government or poacher, it gives it value. If you give it away people will use it for stuff and then sell that stuff, which gives it value. If it has value it will be poached. The only way to stop the slaughter by poachers is to remove the value. If they can't sell it they won't waste time, effort and money obtaining it. I agree, ivory is a beautiful material. Some of the early Japanese carvings are exquisite. But personally I don't feel the need to own anything made from ivory. Plenty of other beautiful materials out there.

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True, but that said, the very fact that there are magnificent antique examples of ivory carving means that modern ivory is still desirable to an awful lot of people that want the look of the old thing but can't afford the price, or just can't get their hands on it (in the case of examples in museums and state collections etc).

Personally i don't think it'll ever really lose its 'prestige' status all together, although growing ethical concerns in the west, changing social norms and the huge swathes of new and updated laws and regulations being brought in to make selling ivory full stop are making it less commercially viable for many of the big players in the ivory antiques market to continue dealing with it. (though since ivory sales were banned in New York i have noticed a boom in the number of rather substantial tusk shaped 'bone' carvings offered in online antiques stores....)

Whether it makes me a monster or not in the eyes of most people, i'll still continue keep an eye out for 'materials' like bits of old ivory and tortoiseshell when they come up at auction houses in melbourne, and for the time being at least, mammoth ivory presents a legal natural alternative, even if it is a bit more of a gamble as to what colour the pieces you're buying actually are until you start using them.

You have brought up an interesting concept to farm the elephant.

The underlining question that pushes the need to farm elephants is what is Ivory used for these days and is there a substitute?

It might be a little bit of a loaded question but that is what the poachers are taking, not the whole elephant.

I just did a quick google search on elephants and I think anyone contemplating farming them would fail miserably. They eat up to 200kg/day. A female takes 14 years to mature and has one calf every 4 or 5 years. After 50yrs they have one calf every 6 years. Good luck making money from that.

Although you can buy synthetic ivory (polyester resin I believe) I've never seen it and don't know how realistic it is.
And fudo, if I was offered an antique japanese carving at a ridiculous price (because there is no way I could afford the proper price) my resolve would be sorely tested.

The whole question of poaching is a vexed issue that extends to rhinos, tigers and other animals.

With elephants it has always been about the ivory. To make ivory have no value would certainly work if there were not so much older ivory and ivory items in the world that do have significant value.

As for rhino horn and the bits of tiger that are valued in Chinese medicine the story is different. I want to know what animals will be next on the list once the rhinos and tigers disappear. What will the Chinese medicine practitioners do then?

How will their erectile enhancing rhino horned medicines work without that ingredient?

I do not condone the poaching of Elephant Ivory but there was recently a media announcement as to thoughts on the large stock piles of Ivory TUSK being sold.

Some facts about Ivory need to be brought up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory

I think of the years of Ivory products and how many animals not just elephants must have given there front teeth for the pleasure of human joy.
Ivory also comes from other many sources which is legal to obtain of course much smaller.

I think the point of he poachers is they are employed by those who wish to have Ivory and those people have to have the $$$$ to start with. Those people are never brought to justice only the poachers if caught are. So do not just condemn the poachers who make little yet suffer the most while the main culprits walk free only to hire more poachers.

Oh to get a hold of some old Ivory snooker/Billard balls or even cutlery handles of years gone by.

Just found this as an example of where some Ivory is used these days http://pgcpsmess.wordpress.com/2014/...y-in-thailand/

And another http://www.canadianivory.com/

The white keys of a piano keyboard were at one time made of ivory (over a wood base). The ivory has been substituted for a plastic.
How to tell them apart - the ivory tops might be in two parts, plastic in one.

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Originally Posted by artme

in Chinese medicine the story is different. I want to know what animals will be next on the list once the rhinos and tigers disappear. What will the Chinese medicine practitioners do then? ?

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I understand that cane toad livers work a treat for erectile disfunction....pass it on:q

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Originally Posted by Handyjack

The white keys of a piano keyboard were at one time made of ivory (over a wood base). The ivory has been substituted for a plastic.
How to tell them apart - the ivory tops might be in two parts, plastic in one.

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I have some of these given to me by a form member long ago he hasn't been around for some time either.

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Originally Posted by Christos

Any Ivory collected from a poacher by a government that is preventing poaching of Ivory needs to be burnt. If a government sells or gives away the Ivory that was collected by a poacher this gives the Ivory a monetary value and yes even if it government gives it away there will be a value to it.

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It already has a monetary value. So destroying it does nothing to help prevent adding value to the already rare commodity. So it becomes even rarer and even more difficult to obtain! So the value increases .... and around the circle we go.

Destroying it has nothing to do with the value equation - it is currently illegal to trade in ivory by international convention. However the ban is to be relaxed - http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/un-tr...e-ban-1.896175

"Proponents also have argued that legalizing the trade could dampen prices and, therefore, demand for ivory on the black market"

The economic laws of supply and demand come to bear. I guess Christos is saying that if we eliminate the demand the trade in illegal ivory will die a death.

However, while a few people might take the high moral ground and refuse to entertain anything to do with ivory, it is unreasonable to imagine the majority of people around the world will follow. In fact banning ivory and burning any legally harvested material may make things worse in one sense in that you now have an extreme shortage of supply where previously there was only a scarcity. The value of ivory has now increased exponentially.

The only benefit in removing (surgically) an elephants' tusks is that animal is no longer a target for poachers. However, I don't think that would improve an elephant's life expectancy.

I don't profess to know the answer. I can strongly sympathise with those of you who shun ivory products, but I don't think it will make enough difference. I feel most sorry for the pachyderms themselves.

Regards
Paul

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Originally Posted by Bushmiller

.....However, while a few people might take the high moral ground and refuse to entertain anything to do with ivory, it is unreasonable to imagine the majority of people around the world will follow. .........

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I understand that you cannot force people to follow a certain way of thinking. At present I might be in the minority of not wanting to do anything with ivory. I have thought about it for a long time before coming to this conclusion.

I also felt that I needed to express my opinion on where I stand on destroying Ivory from poaches.

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Originally Posted by Christos

I understand that you cannot force people to follow a certain way of thinking. At present I might be in the minority of not wanting to do anything with ivory. I have thought about it for a long time before coming to this conclusion.

I also felt that I needed to express my opinion on where I stand on destroying Ivory from poaches.

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I quite understand and applaud your stance.

Regards
Paul