Know of a shellac supplier?

[JDarvall]

I'm after a good de-waxed grade.

Heard of bloke on the east coast somewhere who only deals in the stuff. shellacman or shellac something.

appreciate any tips. ta.

[jmk89]

Mr UBeaut (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/flakes.html#sf1)

[RufflyRustic]

should I play my broken record #1?:wink::D

oh, JMK beat me already :2tsup:

[JDarvall]

ta. is it dewaxed Neil. sell any pumice powder ?

[DJ’s Timber]

ta. is it dewaxed Neil. sell any pumice powder ?

Yes (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/dewaxed.html) & yes (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/talc.html)

[JDarvall]

kinda after 'extra pale' or something like. apparently the wax in it doesn't clog up your sandpaper. But the de -waxed stuff looks better and more water resistant etc.

[JDarvall]

Yes (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/dewaxed.html) & yes (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/talc.html)

thankyou kindly. ...ummm:- can you get it in flakes ? don't want liquid...shelf life problems etc........sounding picky now. sorry.

[JDarvall]

Can I buy a larger amount than that too. something bigger. 10litres be nice.

[JDarvall]

the powders talcum.....i'm thinking of something different I think.

its a powder you rub into the shellac with 0000 steel wool after a few weeks when its fully cured. just final finishing to take care of little blemishes.

[m2c1Iw]

Get Neils book (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/book.html) as well you can't go wrong although I've tried very hard to prove that theory is flawed.

Mike

[JDarvall]

uno, it all looks great. And thankyou kindly for all the advice....the products must be tops.....but I've got to just buy what I need (and I'm a bit of a tightarse).I'm just after de-waxed flaked(not liquid) shellac. Hoping to get it cheaper in a bulk buy. Does Neil sell it this way ?

....and pumice....but I can get by without that.

[echnidna]

dewaxed is harder to come by in flake form as it goes off quickly unless stored correctly.

[ubeaut]

It has a short shelf life in the powder form and must be kept refrigerated at 4C. I can sell you 25kg but if you're a tightarse as you say you sure as hell won't want to part with $500 odd just to have most of it go off before you get to use it.

In the liquid form it will last for up to 2 years (I give 18 mth to cover myself) what's left can be cut with around 8 parts metho and used as sanding sealer which will last pretty much indefinitely.

You can buy it in 500ml which will give you from 1 to 2 litres depending on how you intend to use it, 5 litres and 25 litres all of which will mix down to at least twice their volume and up to 10 times, again depending on how you intend to use it.

Oh yeah... It won't change the colour of the timber any more than wetting the wood with water.

Pumice is for dulling down. If you want to improver the finish you probably want tripoli powder. You don't use with steel wool unless you want to dull down. Going by your knowledge of shellac I reckon you should top it all off with a book and hey presto.

Neil

[JDarvall]

It has a short shelf life in the powder form and must be kept refrigerated at 4C. I can sell you 25kg but if you're a tightarse as you say you sure as hell won't want to part with $500 odd just to have most of it go off before you get to use it.

In the liquid form it will last for up to 2 years (I give 18 mth to cover myself) what's left can be cut with around 8 parts metho and used as sanding sealer which will last pretty much indefinitely.

You can buy it in 500ml which will give you from 1 to 2 litres depending on how you intend to use it, 5 litres and 25 litres all of which will mix down to at least twice their volume and up to 10 times, again depending on how you intend to use it.

Oh yeah... It won't change the colour of the timber any more than wetting the wood with water.

Pumice is for dulling down. If you want to improver the finish you probably want tripoli powder. You don't use with steel wool unless you want to dull down. Going by your knowledge of shellac I reckon you should top it all off with a book and hey presto.

Neil

Thankyou kindly for your advice. I am pretty new to shellac and its getting confusing.

I get it sorry. ok. The only way I can get anything finish related here is through you. Its just, as you'd know, money don't grow on trees, and I have to find the best deal.

I'd buy the book, but I've already got one in front of me, by a guy called 'Tim Judson' in England. Says he's trained in cabinetmaking and furniture restoration at the london colege of furniture.....

This is what he says.....

'dry shellac flakes will have an indefinite shelf life if kept stored dry and cool' .....can't flaked dewaxed shellac be bought ? only powder ?.....or is it something to do with no wax that kills its shelf life ?. has he failed to mention something? Because flakes and powder I thought is dry. :?

gotcha on the tripoli....use tripoli or prumice it says. with a rag. :D not talc no steel wool.

[JDarvall]

Can you dewax shellac yourself ?

thinking that since waxed shellac has an indefinete shelf life, and if its easy enough to dewax myself, then I could bulk buy the stuff so I get it cheaper and dewax each portion of it before use.

[damian]

What are you trying to achieve ? In other words wht are you using it on and what finish do you hope to achieve ? gloss ? matt ? durable ? are you trying to teach yourself to french polish ? sealer ?

Start with the problem and maybe someone can give you a good clue on how best to proceed.

Can I also suggest there are as many opinions on shellac and it's use as there are, er, digestive tracts on the planet. Much of this hot debate is between people with solid qualifications and demonstated finishing abilities. Best not get hung up on details. If you just want to finish something with shellac I suggest you get some either liquid from a reputable dealer like ubeut, or as flakes from anywhere (Bunnings sell them) in a small quantity. The $22 bottle of FP at ubeut is not excessive. Then get some experiment timber and finish that, a small flat surface. Once you've immersed yourself in the joys of finishing with shellac you will be able to go forward well informed.

Search on shellac or french polishing on the web and you'll find truckloads of sites. You'll read about seedlac, and the bleaching process, endless arguments about which brew is best and techniques for application. None of this is necessarily wrong, what is right is an approach YOU develope which gets results YOUR happy with.

Enjoy :D

[JDarvall]

ta, definetly complicated eh.

What do you think about the idea of keeping it simple and saving dollars by bulk buying regular shellac (waxed stuff), storing it in a cool dark place, and just dewax portions of it as you need it ?

[damian]

Shellac is pretty cheap stuff. It's amongst the cheapest of finishes. Remember that 220 gram of flakes makes about 1 liter of solution which is enough to do a guitar.

What if what you buy isn't what you end up wanting ? What if you do a couple of pieces and want to use something else ? your stuck with a huge expensive bag of air displacer. And trust me, second hand shellac isn't worth 2c if you go to try and sell it. I suppose you can always eat it...

Again, what are you planning to use it for ?

[JDarvall]

about a 100 chairs.

shouldn't matter anyway buying bulk since waxed shellac in flake form I'm told has an indefinite shelf life if its kept in a cool dark spot. Get through it eventually. Or is that wrong ?

[jmk89]

I dunno much about dewaxed shellac, Jake, but according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shellac)the wax is filtered out. So your plan of buying ordinary shellac flakes and making dewaxed as you need it would work if you can find out how to filter it.

There's a lot here (http://www.shellac.net/information.html)and it suggests that they can supply dewaxed blonde shellac flakes

[JDarvall]

I'm not so sure myself Jeremy. looks like a complicated subject. getting mixed messages uno. Just trying to work out the most econimical way of buying it.

Thinking bulk if it'll keep, because I thought generally thats how you get things cheaper.

been making some enquires. I was put onto this
http://www.inthewoodshop.org/finish/dewax.shtml
and looked through my book again and found this (pic 1). Don't know how I missed it. The description for the pic is to strain it through cloth several times to get the wax out. So I'm under the impression now you can dewax regular shellac. Doesn't seem like a hassel. just pour it through cloth.

and then on a previous page there's this (pic 2)....tells me that it has an indefinete shelf life if I store it right. And it wouldn't be hard to store it right I'm guessing. Or must it be kept refrigerated in Australia ?

Anyhow, thats how I reached the conclusion that I can bulk buy it, store it, and just dewax portions of it as I need it, because dewaxed shellac gives a better finish. But, no doubt there's a catch eh?

[echnidna]

However is it white/clear shellac or is it still orange?

[JDarvall]

I don't know Bob. getting confusing. get the impression part of the problem maybe there's different names to describe the same thing.

The paragraph there in the first pic I gave above is apart of his introduction... so its hard not to think he's refering to ALL shellac when he says it has an indefinete shelf life...Heres the rest of his description on shellac grades on the next page (pic below)

There's your white shellac you were talking about in alkali chlorine bath. Orange in there too.

Latter he doesn't refer to any particular grade of shellac when he de-waxes it through cloth. ? So it sounds like you can dewax most. (?)

[ubeaut]

For optimum shelf life in flake form all shellac is best stored at 4C.

Indefinite shelf lifein raw form for flakes is kinda right. It can go off. I've seen stuff sold in paint and hardware shops as fresh that wouldn't disolve it was that far gone. Only buy from someone who has a really big turn over or has the propper storage facilities.

You can get dewaxed flakes and these will keep reasonably well although one dau in a hot shed could bugger the lot. Still going to cost a lot of money and not readily available.

I have a couple of hundred kg that I won't sell. It will still discolour the timber slightly. Dewaxing is a long slow process and it partly degrades the polish. It is much cheaper in the long run to buy dewaxed.

The dewaxed shellac we have is dewaxed white (bleached) shellac and as I said before it won't change the colour of the timber. It is pretty much the only finish that won't change the colour of the timber.

I personally couldn't care less where you buy your shellac, just remember what I said above especially if buying in bulk. You also need to remember that what's in a book written for England or US can vary a lot from one written speciffically for Australia especially as there is a difference between what's available here and overseas. Australia has only a couple of importers of shellac and not a large range of product. AVLO in Vic and NSW, Shines NSW but now only by very special arrangement and um, er, oh yeah.... yours truely.

There are a couple of others that buy in a heap of cheap grade orange stuff to sell for paint brush handles and other low grade mass finishing, but have no idea who they are.

[JDarvall]

Thankyou kindly Neil for the advice. Owe ya favour.actually I think that might be two. gave me some advice on chip carving knives some time ago. do appreciate it.

Cleared it all up for me. except a bit confused on why dewaxing myself wouldn't be cheaper in the long run. Cause according to the bloke above in that link I posted, its just a matter of mixing it, letting it sit, then straining it. Just have to mix it in advance, leave it for a day ???? or is their something I'm missing. Where are dollars lost in doing that ?

[damian]

My opinion, worth about hat it costs you:

1. From what you've posted above it sounds like you haven't done any shellac finishing, your making or finishing a bunch of chairs and for some reason you've decided blond shellac is the way to go. Correct me if I'm wrong.

2. Assuming the above: while shellac itself is cheap applying it can be tricky and even the modified hardened finishes aren't particularly durable. So if you factor labor at any $ rate at all shellac isn't a cheap finish. Applied with skill it is both traditional and can look spectacular, but french polishing was a trade in itself, and for good reason.

3. I assume the reference to the cost of dewaxing yourself refers to the time/labor involved. For a little job like a guitar fiddling about with seed lac and so forth can be a bit of fun. Finishing a big area is another proposition. I cannot emphasis strongly enough how much time you will put into this. One chap I know recently spent weeks finishing a guitar, and on the final coat got his rub a bit wrong and stripped off the lot. Start over!

3. Buying a book on FP is not on any level the same as doing it. Seriously.

Here is some light reading:

http://www.milburnguitars.com/frenchpolish.html

http://www.mimf.com/library/french_polishing3.htm

Guitar oriented obviously, but you'll get the idea. Go read 20 sites on FP and you'll get 20 approaches to EVERY aspect of it.

Finally:

If your not rubbing the finish then why the heck are you using shellac ? I'm not saying that approach is wrong but unless you have a concrete reason to brush, spray or whatever shellac you really should consider one of the modern durable easy apply finishes. Tung oil would be a very nice solution. Minwax is brain dead to apply, quick, economical, more durable than shellac, doesn't color the timber too much. Ok it's a satin finish, but very pretty.

Anyway, do what you will. :)

[ubeaut]

according to the bloke above in that link I posted, its just a matter of mixing it, letting it sit, then straining it. Just have to mix it in advance, leave it for a day ???? or is their something I'm missing. Where are dollars lost in doing that ?

You really need to leave it sit for a fer weeks to a month to settle out properly then strain off the top section two or three times preferably through blotting paper or coffee filter rather than rag. You will eventually end up with around half of the mix you stated with as the rest is degraded and not really much good. The time taken can be many hours for as little as 500 ml. Even if you can buy it at full wholesale it is false economy because in time and wastage it will probably cost you in real terms more than buying the premixed dewaxed white or dewaxed flake stuff.

By the way contrary to what is in the book the dewaxed white isn't unstable and has by far the longest shelf life of all in its liquid state. Especially ours ar it is made with 100% ethanol unlike most others that are made with 95% or less. Much of the US and to my knowledge the UK shellac has all sorts of other additives and has gone away from the original shellac mix.

Cheers - Neil

[JDarvall]

I'm a joiner Damian. windows doors mostly. I'm everything up to preparation for finish, after which point its off to the spray booth. Rarely do I work on finishes. I've put done a couple of coats on a table once with the shellac when the boss was running late. Never used his pumice. So no, I've had little french polishing experience.

I want to build chairs though. I'm setting up to quit my job and do that. Be it successful or not cause I enjoy making them.

Ideally I feel I should use laquer as I want my chairs to survive in the sun. But the stuff will kill me I fear. So I'm considering shellac. Liking it because it drys quick and harmless to my health. and can be sprayed well (I'm told) which will work well with the windsors I intend on making.

If I do go for shellac, I'll be going through a lot of it. Just need to work out costs.......and hopefully whats true and whats not! I don't know where to go when one expert says something completely different to another expert !

Here's the kind of chairs I'll be making. Painted mostly. Traditionaly they oil them over the paint, so may just do that. But how well do you reakon shellac would lay down on it ?

no matter. work it myself. thanks.

[JDarvall]

ta Neil.