Thinning Wattyl stains

[Dengue]

Can anyone please advise on a suitable thinner / cleaner for Wattyl interior stains? The label says to use the Wattyl Traditional Stain Remover. Surely there is some more common cleaner eg methylated spirits?

All help and suggestions greatly appreciated

kind regards,
Jill

[Harry72]

Turps or common thinners(If I remember correctly), decant out a few drops of stain into a jar and add the same amount of thinners/turps if it mixes readily its compatable.

[Cruzi]

Turps is good and don't forget the pics :)

[Ashore]

Jill there proberly is something more common , turps has been suggested , but I have always found that following the brand / lable is the best bet. Turps may well work but if over time there is a problem :cool: I don't know , the re do if anything goes wrong later is far more expensive than following the wattyl advice
A question though why do you want to thin the stain , do you want to spray, or reduce the intensity of the colour :?

[Big Shed]

Their product data sheet (http://www.wattyl.com.au/DIY/Products/ProductSearch/Product_TDS.htm?ProductId=435) states thinning and clean up with Mineral Turps.

[MacS]

You could try "White Spirits"

Mac S

[Ashore]

Their product data sheet (http://www.wattyl.com.au/DIY/Products/ProductSearch/Product_TDS.htm?ProductId=435) states thinning and clean up with Mineral Turps.
Then turps is fine , thanks BS didn't bother to look at the data sheet , too damm lazy :doh:

[Dengue]

Thanks everyone, turps it is. I really wanted it for cleaning up rather than thinning.

kind regards to all,
Jill

[Harry72]

Jill, have you stained (assuming from your other post)radiata pine before?

A few hints on using this stain on crapiarta pine,
1. Sanding is the key, the more even the sanding the more even the staining. Uneven sanding will lead to blotching, also filler putty sanded down will blotch unless the whole area/panel is puttied and sanded the same(ie, grain filled).

2. Always sand exposed end grain to 1 or 2 grits higher than the side/face grain as it soaks up stains and finishes faster.

3. If you want a dark colour dont sand too fine, 180g on face grain and 220~240g on end grain is ideal, a fine sanded surface will not hold the solids that are in dark stains. Do not use any sanding sealer... repeat do not use sanding sealer( it stops the stain from working properly)

4. With Wattyl interior stain, brush on a wet coat then well before it starts to dry rub it in with a rag/rubber to even it out, start with a circular motion after a while it will start to thicken then drag the rubber along with the grain, once it looks even let it near fully dry then using a clean rag wipe along the grain to remove any excess.
Its an art... much like some of the actions used while applying french polish.

5. PolyU is about the only finish you can use on top of oil based stains(shellac can too, but its not as strong), oil finishes like Danish oil are too compatable, while applying it will lift the stain... polyU will also if you overwork it.

6. The first coat of polyU(Im assuming you are brushing it on)thin out the polyU to about 50/50 with turps, lightly brush on a thin coat to seal the surface. Once dry dont sand this coat instead apply a nice thick coat that hasnt been thinned, sand this coat with about 320~400g wet and dry paper sparingly using water and a small amount of dishwashing detergent as a lubricant, no need to over sand as your only "denibbing" any dust or raised grain run your hand across the surface if it feels smooth with no grittyness its done. Wipe clean with fresh water and let dry fully.

7.Applying the top coat, if using full gloss once again unthinned and applied thick as possible(without runs that is!), high gloss polyU needs thickness to flatten out to a high shine just like enamel paints. 1 coat will be enough.
For a low sheen polyU apply 2 light coats but thin them out to about 90/10 poly/turps, denib once again between the coats.

[Dengue]

Wow, what an eye opener from Harry72! I wish I had known this years ago when I first started staining pine, and coating with Danish Oil.

Thanks for sharing your valuable knowledge and experience with us, Harry. I shall certainly put it to good use on my current project

kind regards,
Jill

[Dengue]

Harry72, a couple of points. I have found out in the hardware shop today that I should use pigment stain, not the dye stain for radiata pine.

You refer to PolyU. The shop had never heard of it :( By this do you mean Wattyl Estapol polyurethane finish as seen at:
http://www.wattyl.com.au/DIY/Products/ProductSearch/Product_Details.htm?Id=455

[Harry72]

IMHO You should use oil based stains(thinned with turps) for radiata, yes it has pigments in it ...all stains do. Its the easiest to apply, the others work good but they will take some experimenting to get an even unblotchy look, for instance dye's tend to need spraying on its near impossible by hand, it can be done tho.

The shop didnt know what polyU meant... the assistant didnt have pimples and a mobile phone stuck in ear by any chance? :D

Yes polyU is short for polyurethane, I personaly dont like wattyl polyU's especially their Unipak(utter crap)they do make a good 2pack called 7008 but it can be hard to use as its aimed at professionals, the best brand I have used so far is Cabots Carbothane.

[Harry72]

Wooooo this post is N°6000! :)

[Dengue]

thnaks Harry72, and congratulations on your 6,000th post. What a great contribution to the woodworking forum, and a huge help to people like myself.

Keep up the great work!!

kind regards,
Jill

[Chipman]

Jill, have you stained (assuming from your other post)radiata pine before?

A few hints on using this stain on crapiarta pine,
1. Sanding is the key, the more even the sanding the more even the staining. Uneven sanding will lead to blotching, also filler putty sanded down will blotch unless the whole area/panel is puttied and sanded the same(ie, grain filled).

2. Always sand exposed end grain to 1 or 2 grits higher than the side/face grain as it soaks up stains and finishes faster.

3. If you want a dark colour dont sand too fine, 180g on face grain and 220~240g on end grain is ideal, a fine sanded surface will not hold the solids that are in dark stains. Do not use any sanding sealer... repeat do not use sanding sealer( it stops the stain from working properly)

4. With Wattyl interior stain, brush on a wet coat then well before it starts to dry rub it in with a rag/rubber to even it out, start with a circular motion after a while it will start to thicken then drag the rubber along with the grain, once it looks even let it near fully dry then using a clean rag wipe along the grain to remove any excess.
Its an art... much like some of the actions used while applying french polish.

5. PolyU is about the only finish you can use on top of oil based stains(shellac can too, but its not as strong), oil finishes like Danish oil are too compatable, while applying it will lift the stain... polyU will also if you overwork it.

6. The first coat of polyU(Im assuming you are brushing it on)thin out the polyU to about 50/50 with turps, lightly brush on a thin coat to seal the surface. Once dry dont sand this coat instead apply a nice thick coat that hasnt been thinned, sand this coat with about 320~400g wet and dry paper sparingly using water and a small amount of dishwashing detergent as a lubricant, no need to over sand as your only "denibbing" any dust or raised grain run your hand across the surface if it feels smooth with no grittyness its done. Wipe clean with fresh water and let dry fully.

7.Applying the top coat, if using full gloss once again unthinned and applied thick as possible(without runs that is!), high gloss polyU needs thickness to flatten out to a high shine just like enamel paints. 1 coat will be enough.
For a low sheen polyU apply 2 light coats but thin them out to about 90/10 poly/turps, denib once again between the coats.


What you have given here is excellent advice. I have been working with pine for a number of years and what you say is what really works. I wish I had access to this info about 10 yrs ago! In addition, I often burnish the oil based stain in with 320 grit paper. This tends to give a less blotchy finish and helps fill the grain. Sometimes I use Wattyl water based gel stain.

Good finishing!

Chipman:)

[Dengue]

I often burnish the oil based stain in with 320 grit paper

hi chipman - what exactly do you mean by this? I am new to this staining, apart from some pine furniture years ago. I assume that after each coat of stain, you rub it back with 320 paper? Is that right? How far do you take it back?

Would wet and dry with a bit of water be OK?

regards,

Jill

[Chipman]

Sorry I should have explained it little better. I use the oil base stain and the sanding as part of the application process, I wet sand the stain in until I get a thickish slurry of the oil based stain and the wood dust. Then it is wiped off across the grain with a rag and finally rubbed in a circular motion to finish it off. If needs be, I will do this several times. This is just the same as how you would apply an oil finish. It works well with lots of different woods but it is a bit messy!

I normally leave it a couple of days or even a week and then finish as normal with an oil based polyurethane (would not recommend a water base polyurethane over an oil based stain as you are very likely to have adhesion problems) I sometimes use lacquer instead (stylewood)

I find if I finish in this fashion it is seldom necessary to do too much de-nibbing which is handy for spray finishes. For a really mirror finish after the final coats, a very light sand with wet and dry 1200 grit with a little water and a few drops of detergent (as pointed out by Harry72), a light cut and polish and a good waxing really works well (similar to automotive finishing)

I am led to believe that polyurethane is a little harder wearing and less likely to be damaged by some solvents. The advantage of the lacquer is the faster drying times and the ability to finish in hours rather than days. Some disadvantages of lacquer include it is difficult to fill with it as each additional coat softens the one underneath and for porous grain, it will retake the shape of the grain underneath.

Most of us have slightly different ways of finishing. This is just something I have experimented with over the years and it works for me! (Only go to all this trouble for my really special projects)
Hope this helps,

Chipman

see this thread for pictures of a blanket box finished this way
http://www.woodworkforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=70939

[Dengue]

Many thanks for this valuable information, Chipman. I would never have thought of this - sounds very interesting, wiping the stain on with very fine sandpaper , then wiping off across the grain. I have never been game to spray finish with lacquer, as I don't have a suitable spraying vent, unfortunatley.

I notice the local furniture shop take timber furniture built in Toowoomba, and do a lacquer spray finish up here to meet the customers finish needs. They just use a 240V spray gun - looks like an airless power gun.

kind regards,
Jill

[Dengue]

in the 9th post above, by Harry72, can you please clarify that for satin PolyU finish, I need to do a sealing coat with 50/50 mix of PolyU and turps, and follow this with 2 coats of 90/10 polyturps, lightly sanding back between these last 2 coats?

regards,
Jill