Unions, loathe em, love em or balance

[astrid]

this is for all of you with an axe to grind or a thank you.
Lets lay some myths to rest.
Give credit where i'ts due.
ideas to pull in too much power on either side
lets have genuine thoughts rather than biased rants ( and I mean me too)

Astrid:U

[Pusser]

Why did you do this Astrid - glutton for rants?

[Brickie]

I had my first encounter with the unions back in 1973 when I first arrived in this fine country, I was 18.

I was threatened by a big bully boy union rep that if I did not join, I couldnt work, I had no choice but to join.

Later on in life I was in Ballarat, same scenario, no ticket, no job.

I used to loath paying the union fees to some big fat obviously under worked bully boy, I lost countless days due to strikes, which I never did recoup with all the "new" benefits that they had us strike for.

The last straw for me was a union meeting that was held at trades hall for all the brickies.
About 10 of us turned up.

The big bully boy was retiring and he wanted the union to hand him the keys to the company car, " for all his hard work" but it needed a vote.

All the other areas had voted "no", as we did. :nonono:

Well, this bloke was furious, telling us what a pack of ( insert words of choice here) we all were after all his years of hard work, etc, etc..:wank:

[astrid]

Puss

thats a little unfair,
just thought that the election thread was getting a bit too union focused and this would leave room for those who dont want to talk about Unions.
quite frankly i.ts a subject that stirs too many biased passions one way or the other and nothing sensible is often said. And I include me in this.
I did suggest that the others start this thread.

Astrid (we dont have an icon for a little hurt)

[astrid]

Good on you Brickie,
this is what Unions are for, too represent the members
if some weight challanged (Heh Heh) bully is trying to dominate his members or his or her( Heh Heh) workers then a group can stand up to them when an individual can't

Astrid

[Brickie]

Good on you Brickie,
this is what Unions are for, too represent the members
if some weight challanged (Heh Heh) bully is trying to dominate his members or his or her( Heh Heh) workers then a group can stand up to them when an individual can't

Astrid

I think you have missed my point. :?

I wasnt "his" worker.

I loath the unions with a passion and all they represent, all they have done is cost me money which I will never get back.

Maybe they were good back in 1850, but times have changed slightly. :doh:

[astrid]

so what was your point? to beat the union bully with solidarity? well good on you you did it
astrid:)

[Jim Carroll]

Of all the strikes we had not once did we actually get what we wanted .

Always came back with a very small comprimise , having a family to feed and a mortgage at 18% you could not afford to have too much time of and the increase you got never covered what you lost in down time.

After talking to managment this is what we have agreed to and we strongly think you should agree. Poppyc.....ck


Not a big fan of union reps.

[wheelinround]

They have their place but times have changed we now have many government departments which handle the same things individual or collective.

Went on strike when an apprentice for 3 days for 15 min wash up time and $15 week increase. after 3 days we got 5 mins wash time and $2.50 increase.

Twice threatened personally once threatened my family..

I wasonce nominated as Union rep :oo: I wasn't even there, voted in, told them the next day I resigned on the spot.

[astrid]

then get a new union rep?
astrid

[Lignum]

I think you have missed my point. :?

I wasnt "his" worker.

I loath the unions with a passion and all they represent, all they have done is cost me money which I will never get back.

Maybe they were good back in 1850, but times have changed slightly. :doh:

So their is something we agree on:)

[astrid]

wheelin,
commas are useful things,
I take this as
you nominated, were voted in, and resigned the next day,
so why did you nominate?

Astrid

Ps not all Union reps are fat control freaks, many of us take on the job because its needed and no-one else wants it. I was 6 months preg when I took it on and believe you me i would have been happier if somone else could have been bothered.

[Brickie]

I resign from this debate as you are not listening, typical of the unions. :~

[Lignum]

Ps not all Union reps are fat control freaks, many of us...

Ahhhh now i see:wink:

[wheelinround]

then get a new union rep?
astrid


Haven't been in the union since then Astrid thats well over 25 yrs ago will never join one again.

The best thing anyone can do if being asked to join a Union is ask for the rule book first no demand it and tell them you'll make your judgment after that.
This is what you are signing to become a member of and like any other thing you join sign your name to you should read the fine print you'll be surprised, I was the shop union rep was a paid person of fee's he collected he received 35% back. This may have changed

[astrid]

settle down brickie,
I was refering to a person fat or otherwise that dominates his union members or if an employer his workers.

This is going to be an uncomfortable thread so i sugest posters read the posts carefully and think about replies.

Astrid

[Rossluck]

Well, my view of unions is that they are a sort of "necessary evil"; although the use of the word evil is harsh. To my way of thinking the system works through binary oppositions of Greenies/rednecks, unions/unfair employers, conservatives/progressives, leftist politics/rightist politics, brickies/humans (that one's for you, Al:wink:).

In the other thread I was annoyed by those who are just so one-sided that they "hate" unions with a passion and forget that we don't function all that well as a society without such checks and balances.

Let's look at the greenies for example. For years conservatives have been treating greenies as if they are scum, but now we're all starting to accept that the message they were presenting to us was right. We have been damaging the environment.

I see unions as doing something of the same thing in the workplace. You just can't have all of the power on one side, because we humans are a nasty greedy lot who tend to exploit those over whom we have power.

[wheelinround]

wheelin,
commas are useful things,
I take this as
you nominated, were voted in, and resigned the next day,
so why did you nominate?

Astrid

Ps not all Union reps are fat control freaks, many of us take on the job because its needed and no-one else wants it. I was 6 months preg when I took it on and believe you me i would have been happier if somone else could have been bothered.

No I wasn't there is what I said and was nominated not nominated by myself. I resigned from the union on the spot that day.

[Wood Butcher]

This is a once off warning. It is purely by good grace that I am letting this thread go (for now)

If any personal attacks, comments etc start, infractions will be given to the guilty parties and any future discussion on this topic will be banned.

[Big Shed]

wheelin,
commas are useful things,
I take this as
you nominated, were voted in, and resigned the next day,
so why did you nominate?

Astrid




Astrid, when I grew up one of the things my parents taught me was that it was a bad idea for people in glass houses to throw stones!:rolleyes:

If you read your own posts prior to this, there isn't a comma in sight, and capitals are few and far between as well.

I won't join in the union debate, either for or against, but you at least gave me a laugh with your gratuitous advice to wheelin re punctuation.:2tsup:

[astrid]

Ok, but you cant nominate someone without their say so, in any election, and for the vote to be valid.
I suggest that your election would be invalid and you didnt need to resign, just say, whah! b-- off

astrid

[wheelinround]

I used to find in many unions through people I dealt with that their particular union laws etc stated that "No Management could be a Union rep" all to often who's the rep a supervisor a manager, a forman. These days Union reps could be breaching their own union laws by having shares through managed investments in the company they work for such as their own super for example.

[Lignum]

Business across from me, non unoin, 10 staff, very well looked after, made a large piece of equipment for the Mint. The owner and 2 workers followed the semi to spend the day to install it. On arivall, naturaly they wernt allowed in to finish the job because they didnt have a ticket. After a few hours they gave up and were resigned to the fact they had no option but to join.
But that wasnt all. They had to join the unions super fund, BUT their is more, they had to transfere ALL the super from their own accounts and deposit into the unions account. Fair dinkum what a joke. Like Al, i also loath them. Yes they might do some good, but in general they are nothing but a bunch of jerks.

[astrid]

And BS somtimes punctuation is not that important when your meaning is easily decipherable, Yeah my spelling can be atroshus too.

but as i said, this is going to be a bit contentous so we should take a little more care if our meaning is to not be misconstrued.
alright?

Astrid:q

[Ivan in Oz]

Unions;
Seen 'em do good,:2tsup:
seen 'em do "Not so Good"........ ie Bad!:(

Then again,
I've had some VERY!!!! GOOD Bosses,:U

I've had some attrocious Bosses as well.:~
Hmmmmm
Have a look at the top of the Telecom PILE:(

Both Unions, and Bosses cover the Spectrum

[Rossluck]

Business across from me, non unoin, 10 staff, very well looked after, made a large piece of equipment for the Mint. The owner and 2 workers followed the semi to spend the day to install it. On arivall, naturaly they wernt allowed in to finish the job because they didnt have a ticket. After a few hours they gave up and were resigned to the fact they had no option but to join.
But that wasnt all. They had to join the unions super fund, BUT their is more, they had to transfere ALL the super from their own accounts and deposit into the unions account. Fair dinkum what a joke. Like Al, i also loath them. Yes they might do some good, but in general they are nothing but a bunch of jerks.

There's the problem in a nutshell, Lignum. The 10 staff across the road are very well looked after. If all employers were like that, goodbye unions. :2tsup:

But they're not :C:C:C:C:C

[Brickie]

This is a once off warning. It is purely by good grace that I am letting this thread go (for now)

If any personal attacks, comments etc start, infractions will be given to the guilty parties and any future discussion on this topic will be banned.


Wow!! :o Go Rowan.. :2tsup:

[astrid]

Wheelin, but pardon me that is rubbish,
When I was rep most of our members were supervisors or management me included.
we just put on another hat when dealing with workplace issues, as a lot of people who come up through the ranks are expected to do.
those who couldnt were swiftly sat on and politley asked to leave management concerns for the appropriate time and forum.

astrid

[DavidG]

Union member half my working life. Non union member for rest.
Never noticed the difference.
Never had any problems, contact, or use for unions.:roll:

Put me in the rats ring group.:;

[astrid]

Hi rowen,
I dont think anyone is being hurt or insulted, we're all big kids and if they dont enjoy the debate they wouldnt be on it.

if anyone insults personally or is abusive by all means take it down.

Astrid

[Lignum]

There's the problem in a nutshell, Lignum. The 10 staff across the road are very well looked after. If all employers were like that, goodbye unions. :2tsup:

But they're not :C:C:C:C:C

25 years in the workforce i have had 2 bad employers.

25 years in the workforce, i couldnt even begin to count the number of "work mates" who have ripped off, stole, manipulated time sheets, faulse sick days etc.

Go figure

[astrid]

Thanks Rossluck,
Im just trying to let folk vent here,
which we all need to do sometimes,
lets keep it civilized and there wont be a problem.

astrid

[m2c1Iw]

Astrid,
I believe both sides of politics have in recent years moved to improve the balance and remove some of the undesirable aspects of union behavior.
There is no doubt that in many industries and companies they provide a voice for employees and work to ensure fair and reasonable conditions.

However when unions over step the mark and resort to bullying and stand over tactics, often merely to further the political ambitions of the officials it is no wonder many members desert and hold them in contempt.

Pity greed and self interest continues to reign in so much of our lives...Hmmm doubt if that will ever change so its up to our governments to make the rules.

At the end of the day I subscribe to the notion of Freedom of association which includes unions so organised labour is a good thing, just make sure their ambitions are reasonable, for the genuine good of members and lawful thanks.:)
Regards Mike

[astrid]

thanks Mike,
thats the stuff we all need to learn,
my view,and i own a small business, as well as working part time for a big co
is that in an industry where you are replacable because of lack of skills, or a shift in economic value,people need a protected representitive,
elected by the folk they are representing.
Unfortunatly some folk work as outworkers or in companies too small to get that and it is a unions job to help these to fair pay and conditions even if they arnt members.

many unions do this, some dont and should be ashamed.

Astrid

[Geoff Dean]

As I posted in the other discussion.


In 1986 I was working for a printing company that was a non union shop. Everyone was paid above award wages, around $50 per week, which was around 12% above the award, we had very good conditions, were happy with the employer and got on and did a good days work.

The business was sold to the local newspaper which was run to militant union rules. Within 5 minutes of the first day that the new owners were in charge we were visited by the shop steward who told all staff that they had to join the union. Most joined, I resisted.

I was then called to a meeting and told that I had to join or everyone else would be called out on strike. My reply was they could strike as much as they liked, I would turn up to work and get paid while they got no wages, see if I cared. I was told I would not be allowed to enter the premises if I did not join. I had to be restrained from putting said officials head thru a brick wall.

End result was I did not have to join, and the others who had joined then tried to unjoin from union, but were not allowed to do so. I think that they were more peed off about that than me.

The union made sure that everyone who was on over award wages lost those extras. They could not remove them from us, but every CPI or Indexed rise that happened for the next 3 years was not passed on until we were back on the award.

I have only had 3 jobs in 28 years, I left my first job after 8.5 years after the union standover tactics, my second employer was a good employer for 8 years, but then the business started going bad because of his excesses, and I left after 8.5 years also. The business went bellyup about 18 months later so I just got out in time.

I have been with my current employer now for nearly 11 years and in the whole 28 years, apart from 4 years as an apprentice, and 3 months after the union intervention with my first job, I have been paid over the award, currently almost 40% above, and not a single union rep to get that for me, in fact all they have ever wanted to do is have my salary decreased to the award.

My employers have always valued my expertise and work ethic and rewarded me accordingly. I have had a few other run ins with unions over the years, but by making them admit that they are not able to get me as good a conditions that I currently have, I have been able to make them leave me alone.

So you can understand why I think that unions are nothing but self serving, blackmailing extortionists, who have probably outlived there usefulness. They may have some relevance, but not while they continue to display the militant tactics that they have in the past.




I loath the unions with a passion and all they represent, all they have done is cost me money which I will never get back.

Maybe they were good back in 1850, but times have changed slightly. :doh::2tsup::2tsup:

Brickie, couldn't agree more, as far as I am concerned, any elected union official that I have had to deal with has been the scum of the earth. Lower than shark poop.:((

[namtrak]

I always have leant to the left (short leg and all), and as such have always supported unions.

I think it is easy to draw out the examples where unionists have become bloated, or certain sections have received too many concessions.

However I also think, that employers with goodwill in their heart are in the minority, and if there was no such thing as unionised workforces then we would be operating in a completely different environment. Unions not only bring an employee advocate to the wage condition debate, but also highlight areas of safety, general work conditions and employee welfare.

At the end of the day it is a purely supply and demand issue. Whilst we have high employment/low unemployment then the bargaining power is naturally with the employee and therefore the employer has to provide conditions conducive to attracting employees. However once we have high unemployment and the employer no longer has to shop around for the right employee, that's when conditions (employer overheads/costs) are eroded and the unions come into their own.

A first year apprentice electrician under workchoices currently earns around $6.5 per hour. Sort of says it all really.

Or as the Vic Govt likes to quote

"Depending on the trade, first year apprentice award wages vary between $14,000 and $19,000 per year, rising with each completed year. The award rate is arguably low while you are learning the trade, but you've got to start somewhere! If you are a reliable apprentice, many employers will pay above-award wages to keep you on the team." Yeh right!

$6.50 per hour is about $260 per week before tax. That would be the rent covered.

[Rossluck]

Thanks Rossluck,
Im just trying to let folk vent here,
which we all need to do sometimes,
lets keep it civilized and there wont be a problem.

astrid

I can assure you astrid, that I always remain civilised. I actually have a lot of respect for the people who write to this forum and for the people who run it. :)

I'm self employed these days and by rights should have turned against the unions. But I've also felt the powerlessness of being pushed around by a crook employer in times of high unemployment. I get annoyed when people are violently angry towards anything other than peodophiles. I'm pro union, but not in the least bit angry towards employers or people on the right of politics. We need'em.

[astrid]

rossluck ,
Be assured that the "civilized" comment wasnt directed at anyone in particular especially you.
just trying to keep the moderators happy.
Astrid

[astrid]

apprentices are a difficult topic.
In a genuine apprenticship, they are learning a trade that when finished may earn them a lot more than a student doing a dip Ed
Uni students on the other hand have to pay Hex and earn nothing while they are learning.
they are both learning equaly valuable skills.
I think its time we stop the white collar/blue collar crap and treat both groups as equal and pay them appropriatly.
this needs work and thought to achieve a reasonable out come.
Any ideas?

Astrid

[Brickie]

apprentices are a difficult topic.
In a genuine apprenticship, they are learning a trade that when finished may earn them a lot more than a student doing a dip Ed
Uni students on the other hand have to pay Hex and earn nothing while they are learning.
they are both learning equaly valuable skills.
I think its time we stop the white collar/blue collar crap and treat both groups as equal and pay them appropriatly.
this needs work and thought to achieve a reasonable out come.
Any ideas?

Astrid

I agree.

Because of all the back breaking effort that I put into my job, I need to be earning at least $1.5 million per year to make it all worth while.

If you can guarantee me that, I will again join the union.. :2tsup:

Plus super of course..:roll:

[Barry_White]

I have only ever had two encounters with overbearing and sneaky unionists in over 50 years of employment and self employment. My first encounter was about 1973 when I was sub-contracting installing all the the windows in St. Vincents Private Hospital in Sydney. I had been sub-contracting up to this time on several high rise buildings in Sydney and had never encountered a union.

I had been on the job for about a week when the BWU rep came up to me and wanted to see my union ticket. I told him I didn't have one and did not intend to get one. He said to me you can't work on this site without one. My answer was tough. He then threatened me by telling me that they would close the job down which would put 200 men out of work. To which I replied well I don't care I will go and work somewhere else so you can take it up with the management.

I had a contract with the window company and it didn't include being a member of a union. The supervisor from the window company became concerned because of penalties and wanted me to join the union so the upshot was the window company said they would pay the union fees for me and my two men but I said I don't want to join the BWU. So the compomise was I joined the Carpenters and Joiners Union which was toothless tiger anyway. As soon as I finished the job I resigned from the union anyway.

My only other encounter was when I was managing BHP Building Products in Tamworth and the union rep sneaked in the back door and was talking to all the factory staff stopping them from working and I came out and caught him. I asked what he was doing holding up the workers from doing their job. I asked him to leave the premises. This he wanted to argue about and I told him No.1 he should have come in the front door and saw me first and No2 if he wants to talk to them he can come back during their lunch hour or after they have knocked off. The staff were upset with me because they didn't want to talk to him anyway.

My personal opinion unions suck.

[Rossluck]

I always have leant to the left (short leg and all), and as such have always supported unions.

I think it is easy to draw out the examples where unionists have become bloated, or certain sections have received too many concessions.

However I also think, that employers with goodwill in their heart are in the minority, and if there was no such thing as unionised workforces then we would be operating in a completely different environment. Unions not only bring an employee advocate to the wage condition debate, but also highlight areas of safety, general work conditions and employee welfare.

At the end of the day it is a purely supply and demand issue. Whilst we have high employment/low unemployment then the bargaining power is naturally with the employee and therefore the employer has to provide conditions conducive to attracting employees. However once we have high unemployment and the employer no longer has to shop around for the right employee, that's when conditions (employer overheads/costs) are eroded and the unions come into their own.

.

Well written. :2tsup:

[watson]

I spent most of my working life (20 years 53 days and 4 hours) in a non-union environment.
Any of my workmates are welcome at my house (even 20 years after retirement)
I trusted them....they trusted me.
We didn't need a union......we had a serious job......and we did it without RDO's, time and a half, penalty rates, and child care.
I am proud to have been a soldier.......so in my polite voice........I can't see the reason for the thread.

You should note that this a personal entry to this thread.........it is not closed/edited/moderated

There ya go!

[wheelinround]

Why is there no unions in the armed forces??:D

Because when they call strike its work time.


Astrid I cant see why apprentices are a difficult topic a checkout operator straight out no sorry even before leaving school is paid better at times $100 more than an apprentice.
An office junior goes straight onto what a 4th yr apprentice would be getting, no tools no additional fee's to pay. Apprentices in many ways are todays yesteryears slaves and whipping boys & girls.

Astrid have you read the Union hand book you represent?? Have you issued these to your members?? After all they pay for them.

[johnc]

Early in my working life I was in the office (non union) of a factory which required all workers to be union members as it was a closed shop. The union rep was quite good and acted in a positive role between workers and management bringing foreward minor gievances which usually got sorted out without any stress. Sadly he got replaced by an overbearing individual with a chip on his shoulder and something to prove. Within a very short period he had the factory out on a strike that ran for six weeks, and at the end of it the workers returned with no pay increase and no improvement in conditions. Everyone lost, I think unions do have a very valid role in the work force but it was this type of behaviour that ran unchecked through the seventies and part of the eighties that left a very bad taste in the mouths of many. The reason so many of my generation grew tired of them was their inability to listen to their own members and act in a constructive way, the young can't even see what they do. Unless the union movement can find a role as mediators rather than bover boys then they are doomed to the scrap bin of history which is a shame because they could create a very positive conciliation role in workplace relations if they could just engage their brains for once and move on from 1910.

[boban]

Astrid I cant see why apprentices are a difficult topic a checkout operator straight out no sorry even before leaving school is paid better at times $100 more than an apprentice.
An office junior goes straight onto what a 4th yr apprentice would be getting, no tools no additional fee's to pay. Apprentices in many ways are todays yesteryears slaves and whipping boys & girls.


You have got to be kidding. An apprenticeship is a paid education system. Many apprentices cost their employer money, especially at the early stages. Is that education not worth the $100 per week you imply they are being short paid.

Most of my peers went into the construction industry and were earning more than I was for my first few years. Some still earn more than I do. I however knew very little when I came straight out of uni. I appreciated and valued the 'on the job' education. Your attitude is short sighted.

The shop assistant and office junior will not progress at anywhere near the rate of an apprentice in terms of income. I know which one will earn more within a relatively short time.

[rrich]

I've never been a "Union Man" and probably never will. But on the other hand I'm not anti union either.

You may or may not have heard that the script writers for TV shows have gone out on strike in Hollywood and New York. The strike is about residuals on DVDs and digital downloads. According to published reports, on a DVD that sells for $19, the producers (a.k.a. Studios) get $9 of the sale price. The writers get $0.05.

In other words, the producers get enough from the DVD sale to go to the theater and see the movie. The writers get enough money to pay for the time on the parking meter to view the opening credits, but only if the writers car pool.

[HappyHammer]

I think the premise for unions is fine, the problem is some of the individuals involved and how they react to the power of the position they have. Let's see if K07 can maintain a balance and get rid of the bad apples....only time will tell.

HH.

[silentC]

I reckon the problem is the attitude of members who believe that non-members are scabs.

[Bleedin Thumb]

The problem with what we have here is that it is not a workers struggle....its a class struggle......comrade.

Come the revolution and all counter revolutionary or just plain silly threads like this one will be exterminated.:no:

[LGS]

The problem with what we have here is that it is not a workers struggle....its a class struggle......comrade.

Come the revolution and all counter revolutionary or just plain silly threads like this one will be exterminated.:no:

BT,
I think it's done well on the "Rantometer". I thought that was its aim.
I'm not sure how it rates on the "Spleen ventometer" though.

Rob

[fxst]

I reckon this thread should be in the drivelers forum ...and the election one as well ...both are a load of drivel.
Pete

[wheelinround]

You have got to be kidding. An apprenticeship is a paid education system. Many apprentices cost their employer money, especially at the early stages. Is that education not worth the $100 per week you imply they are being short paid.

Most of my peers went into the construction industry and were earning more than I was for my first few years. Some still earn more than I do. I however knew very little when I came straight out of uni. I appreciated and valued the 'on the job' education. Your attitude is short sighted.

The shop assistant and office junior will not progress at anywhere near the rate of an apprentice in terms of income. I know which one will earn more within a relatively short time.

True usually a 1st yr apprentice cost an employer but at the same time the employer is compensated by the government to the tune of approx $6k while the employer charges at normal rates for the work done. This goes through to 3rd yr when most employers get rid of apprentices even in union shops.

Minimum wage is set by either Unions or government dept's. but there are always those who take advantage and those who respect a persons value.

[jerryc]

So the horror stories of how bad the unions are surface quickly. It's not unions per se but the misuse of power and that should be in the hands of the rank and file. An example of a power struggle here in Vic at the moment is the Police Association (read union but association sounds better) Here the accusations fly that "Senr Serg Mullet is a megolomaniac. He is the highest paid union official in Vic, etc etc." No one outside of the police force can assess his value or otherwise to the force. It's up to them to sort it. The AMA is a very closed shop union but are they bullies?

I have just finished reading an economic review written by a self confessed right winger and his comments are worth noting. Greg Combet is a very astute negotiator respected by both sides of business and politics. And thuggery is not confined to unions. The writer cites the Bernie Banton case as a disgrace where the unions fought hard for justice and another case where a worker was severely injured in a coal accident working for BHP and after ten years still has not received compensation. Union Thuggery?

I have worked on the factory floor and in management and know that properly managed unions are vital for workers. I've fought for the union yet at times have stood against them when I saw what I considered wrongful action. It can be bloody hard to be the only one out of step and you often cop it from both sides.

No. The core of this argument should be the temptation and misuse of power, it applies everywhere. Just to cite unions, and practically all of one strata, is to distort this discussion into a ranting, shouting match.

Jerry

[silentC]

Misuse of power applies across the board.

The problem with the union movement is that to be effective, everyone has to be a member. If you have members and non-members working for the same organisation, problems arise. One side says "why should I join a union, they do nothing for me, it should be my decision?" The other side says "why should you benefit from the activities of the union when you are not a member?"

That gives rise to the closed shop, and that's where the problems start. Get rid of unions altogether and replace that system with something funded by the government that addresses employment issues on behalf of ALL employees.

ch chk ch chk ch chk...

:)

[astrid]

They did that,
think it was called workchoices.

Very simple question guys, only requiring a yes or no answer.
Would any of you feel safe working on a skyrise, mine, or on the docks(and Im not talking about subbies) without any union representation or presence?

astrid

[Bleedin Thumb]

Where is the rats ring option?

[jerryc]

Silentc,

I thought I had said misuse of power is across the board.

Problem with giving control of workplace to civil servants (why civil servants? Often they are neither civil or servant. cheap shot but couldn't resist it) is that they have no close understanding of the workplace. Their main aim in life is to avoid responsibility which they often do by burying action in masses of legislation and rules that only they can interpret. I believe that the best way to kill an idea is to give it to a committee and let them talk it to death and they do that extremely well.

Government and Opposition by their very nature have ideologies that are different. So to give control to Government agencies is to disrupt the workplace with every change of Government or have I misread the last few years?

Jerry

[patty]

I was a Union site once and they were the biggest bunch of bludgers I have ever met! I know of one simple task a person could do by himself but the union delegated 4 workers to do the job so what happened all 4 did a paper scissors rock play off to see who was working for the day and the rest went and had a sleep and played ping pong and got paid for it unbelievable!and this was their job everyday

[dazzler]

Hi Astrid

I think if you want to join a union then you should have that right. Dont wont to join a union then you should have that right.

Live and let live I say.

Unions and business are like Labor and Liberal. The further away from the middle the more fundamentalist they become, hence what we have seen politically in the past.

Labor gets in, the left and the unions take power, country gets treated like a cash cow and we go into debt and the employers get screwed.

Liberal gets in, business gets power, treats the workers like thier own personal serfs, serfs get the sh**s and the country ends up with workchoices or similar.

Both get turned over by the population who are happy with the middle.

[Groggy]

Unions exist to stop employers bullying and abusing workers.

Occasionally unions have bullied and abused workers who don't want to join a union.

Maybe non-union type workers need an anti-union! Problem is though, the anti-union would abuse its power by bullying pro-union workers from joining unions. :rolleyes:

Ok, jokes aside, the problem with this whole issue is the refusal by some to accept that unions and employees rights are not intrinsically linked - they aren't. Fundamentally, the unions are simply a mechanism of convenience used by employees to put their perspective to the employers. When the unions cease to represent the workers and provide value to the workers it is only natural the workers will drift away.

This is not to say that unions are not trying where they can, it may be a reflection of a changed employment environment and other forces that are at play to protect worker's rights and conditions. The unions may make their position a lot weaker by abusing their powers and occasionally bullying the membership.

To stretch a long bow, the discussion is a little similar to the need to have a Defence force. Do you need it in time of peace? Some Defence forces are bad and stage coups, but not all. It really depends on the authority given to them by the people. Not everyone wants a Defence force or believes in violence, but in times of conflict everyone benefits from it. The peacenicks are not left to defend themselves. The overall view though, is that a Defence force is a handy thing to have ready, just in case of bad times. So, with unions, maybe they are a handy thing to have, the major problem we have is getting them to behave.

[rodp]

Hi Astrid,
Good question
"Would any of you feel safe working on a skyrise, mine, or on the docks(and Im not talking about subbies) without any union representation or presence?
I would have often felt a lot safer if their was not a union presence, a whole lot safer, luckly unlike some I did not have a family.

[silentC]

Problem with giving control of workplace to civil servants
I didn't say controlled by the government, I said funded by the government - similar to legal aid. I'm trying to think of a way of having the independent representation given by unions without the membership issue.

We have the Arbitration Commission but if that was working properly, we wouldn't need unions at all.