Responsible tool design

[Groggy]

I've been thinking about the current trend for throw away tools and thought I'd comment. It seems to me (and to a few others I've recently spoken with) that we will go down as the most wasteful and self-indulgent generation in the history of mankind.

Tools contain a number of valuable and scarce resources such as copper, titanium, petroleum based products, and a number of environmentally unfriendly items as well.

Personally I would like to see a minimum standard applied to tools to begin to arrest the total waste that is going on at the moment. I don't think it is unreasonable to mandate a minimum life expectancy for most tools. If people only want to drill ten holes - then hire one, and return it the next time you go to the store.

I have been as guilty as most I guess but today I looked at a huge shelf of 10 hour life tools that will become landfill before the end of the year. When this is duplicated dozens of times in stores across the city and hundreds of stores country-wide it gets scary. The international wastage is downright frightening.

With no recycling of these items the wastage is truly staggering, what will our kids use?

(steps off soap box)

[David L]

:brava:2tsup: http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/smilies/smilie%20signs/goodpost7td.gif

I quite agree especially with all these cheep cordless tools the battery lasts 12 months then then we are expected to buy a new tool even the old one is basically still good. and there seems to be no scheme in place to collect old batteries for recycling.

[watson]

I agree totally with you Groggy....all those 7.5 V/12V/18V/24V upgrades of the same tool.
My only problem is....apart from the battery packs, they all still work....and I've never thrown one away.....I even have a 3V cordless screwdriver that must be 15 years old.
One day I'll find a use for all those good electric motors/planetery gear boxes/ chucks etc.
Got to admit, they are a bit of a problem to store, but the bower bird gene just won't let me chuck them.
Regards,
Noel

[bitingmidge]

I have THREE ryobi 7v drills, and will fork out the $60 for new batteries when the last one dies.

I am fond of reminding everyone that it's consumers that drive the manufacture, not vice versa. If in the case of battery tools, people started replacing the batteries instead of replacing the cheap tool, then the waste would cease with the current batch of manufacture!

On the other hand, cheap "throw away" chisels, brushes hammers etc etc, often last their less than handy owners a lifetime.

How many power drills worth of materials go into one "throw away" car?

While we are at it, let's also mandate driving 1970 Peugeots, and outlaw Kia's.

Oh, and television sets, and iPods and cameras and every other thing in this stupid disposable society in which we live.

Don't join them, beat them!

Cheers,

P

[echnidna]

There is not a plain simple answer to your concerns.

Eventually the world must come to the return of things made to last.

The economic well being of the global community will be affected so that will force it to happen.

But it might be a foolish manufacturer who first starts the process.

As their prices must be far higher than their mainstream competition.

Just imagine if Ozito built to Festool quality - the ozito price would have to increase significantly but their target market might not accept the prices so they would just go buy GMC instead.

[Groggy]

Although I used tools as the example, it really applies to almost everything, particularly cars (why do people have to have a 4wd people mover in the city?:~).

I reckon the best solution is going to come from government introducing legislation to make us more efficient with resource use (yeah, yeah, government control is bad - but let's face it, no-one is going to start this on their own).

Back to the original post though, I guess I just don't like manufacturers deliberately wasting resources because they have a sales/MTBF equation that gives them profit margin.

You're right Bob, there is no simple solution to this one, but it frustrates me to see thousands of these things on the shelves.

[watson]

All too true Bob,
Being on a restricted income, unfortunately GMC rules in my workshop, as they are affordable whilst I learn what each tool is capable of. In the last 5 years I have returned two faulty items to GMC and a third (small bandsaw) I never turned on and returned it un-used the same day. Most of the GMC saws have had good blades added immediately, and lots of set-up and tuning...and safari so goody.
Do you reckon I wouldn't love a high-end table saw / woodlathe / thicknesser / drill press / etc etc.
But I've got 'em....use 'em everyday....and work around their problems.
My workshop is " JIG CITY" to get them to do things that they groan at, but as per my previous post, I don't chuck them away.
Maybe in my next life I'll have good kit to start with...but I'm having an absolute ball with the cruddy stuff I can afford.
Not a whinge, but GMC are doing OK by me.
And if I can't afford something that they don't make...I build it myself....and don't even throw the prototypes of home built stuff out........need more space!!

Regards,
Noel
Regards,
Noel

[Gra]

why do people have to have a 4wd people mover in the city?:~).


Guilty of a people mover and it travels into the CBD almost daily. I have two kids and a big dog (Had two, will get another soon). Wife and I work in CBD, child care also in CBD. What other option do we have??

If you have more than one child, have you tried to fit them in most of the cars smaller than a falcodore. Try and get a 4 cylinder under 30K that will fit 2 baby seats all their crap and the shopping as well as two adults comfortably. now add a dog, your people mover becomes quite an inteligent option, I would prefer more people movers like ours on the road than big falcodore wagons

4WD in the CBD we have a question there, but even they can have their excuses. some people can only afford one car, and it needs to do multiple things, though the number of 4WD's out there doesn't really match the requirements

Ok rant off

[Glenn_M]

.... What other option do we have??.......

I think midge hit the nail when he said "it's consumers that drive the manufacture, not vice versa."

Therefore for Graham there should be an option if people want it. But here's the rub. Many (most?) items are produced by companies wanting to make money. So they make whats sells. Here is the bad bit - WE WANT CHEAP CRAP!

There I said it......We want GMC and Ozito coz in terms of volume, that's where the money is. I think by virtue of us being in this forum we all appreciate good tools, even if me can;t afford them. Yes, I'd love my shed to be filled with high end gear to pass down to my boy. But alasi its got quite a few GMC tools inside.

However, the vast majority of hardware shop tool purchasers are not like us in that respect. Fuelled with the latest ideas from Burkes Garden Outdoor Blitz DIY program they flock to Bunnies to buy cheap tools to do a job - not kit out a shed or a hobby.

Don't get me wrong, I agree wholeheartedly with Groggy and confess my guilt. Yes we should all think about the future more before the resources run out.

But I also think the the selfish generation of consumers that we are all taught to be by society and the mentality that everything must be got cheaper is too ingrained to changed.

Maybe the hope for the next generation is that one day our generation will all be dead. Lets hope for your kids and mine it's not too late.

Cheery bugger aren't I? Sorry, went back to work today.........

Glenn

[Groggy]

Gra, if you have a reason other than "I don't feel intimidated by traffic anymore" or "I like to see over the top of other cars" then I really don't mind.

Need 4wd for towing? Great.
Need the space for big family? Sure.
Going on a round the country trip? Seems like a sensible choice.
Constantly going on muddy blocks (builders)? Ayup.
Any of a dozen other sensible reasons I have no problem with at all.

As you said, the amount of 4WDs out there doesn't really match the requirements. I do query those who need to feed their image, thinking they are "cool" or will get 'respect' on the road or whatever. May as well drive a semi :roll:.

[Clinton1]

I would prefer more people movers like ours on the road than big falcodore wagons


Why? Just curious as to your thinking.

[Gra]

Why? Just curious as to your thinking.

2ltr 4 v 4 ltr 6, you do the fuel usage math. gotta be better for the environment doesn't it

[Gumby]

What ? Make things last a lifetime and throw all those tip workers out of a job ?

Not me, I'm happy to keep them in employment.

[Master Splinter]

What I would like to know is the actual difference in the manufacturing cost between making, say, your $29 Ozito random orbit sander and your $159 DeWalt sander or your $229 Metabo sander.

I find it very hard to believe that higher spec wire, plastic, bearings and control circuitry can add $100 or more on the final price.

Yes, I'll allow some money for reseach and product design (assuming the cheapies are just copies of someone elses tool and not original design work, which may sometimes be the case), but the major costs - tooling, setup, assembly and shipping/distribution - would be about the same.

[Gumby]

I find it very hard to believe that higher spec wire, plastic, bearings and control circuitry can add $100 or more on the final price.


Answer is in the quantity sold, not the process. More sales, less margin, still good profit.

[Article99]

Although I used tools as the example, it really applies to almost everything, particularly cars (why do people have to have a 4wd people mover in the city?:~).

Just to irritate people on two wheels like me. :((

[savage]

All too true Bob,
Being on a restricted income, unfortunately GMC rules in my workshop, as they are affordable whilst I learn what each tool is capable of. In the last 5 years I have returned two faulty items to GMC and a third (small bandsaw) I never turned on and returned it un-used the same day. Most of the GMC saws have had good blades added immediately, and lots of set-up and tuning...and safari so goody.
Do you reckon I wouldn't love a high-end table saw / woodlathe / thicknesser / drill press / etc etc.
But I've got 'em....use 'em everyday....and work around their problems.
My workshop is " JIG CITY" to get them to do things that they groan at, but as per my previous post, I don't chuck them away.
Maybe in my next life I'll have good kit to start with...but I'm having an absolute ball with the cruddy stuff I can afford.
Not a whinge, but GMC are doing OK by me.
And if I can't afford something that they don't make...I build it myself....and don't even throw the prototypes of home built stuff out........need more space!!

Regards,
Noel
Regards,
Noel

Geez! Noel, I hope our shed's never meet or they might start breeding!..:D

[Groggy]

What I would like to know is the actual difference in the manufacturing cost between making, say, your $29 Ozito random orbit sander and your $159 DeWalt sander or your $229 Metabo sander.

I find it very hard to believe that higher spec wire, plastic, bearings and control circuitry can add $100 or more on the final price.

Yes, I'll allow some money for reseach and product design (assuming the cheapies are just copies of someone elses tool and not original design work, which may sometimes be the case), but the major costs - tooling, setup, assembly and shipping/distribution - would be about the same.


(caution, rant coming :rolleyes: ) As you increase the Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF or reliability) you have an increasing burden on just about every aspect of the manufacturing processes - including training. There is a rule of thumb that 80% of the work is in the last 20% of the reliability. 100% reliability is generally accepted as being way past affordable.

The cost of tooling may be about the same if it is capable of the same tolerences. Regular quality checks and maintenance to maintain the required tolerances to guarantee the MTBF at a high level has additional costs. Similarly, package design can be more expensive if you ship and store for longer periods. Materials need to be different if the MTBF is higher - a ten hour tool probably does not need UV stabilisers whereas a trade tool does (add $).

There are a thousand variations and it is overly simplistic to say there are ten ounces of plastic, 20 ounces of steel in each tool, so why not the same price. I guess it would be equal to selling racehorses by the kilo, there's more to it than that.

If you factor in wages, unionised labour, work safety standards, pension schemes and the required human factors engineering then costs do spiral.

If two tools are exactly the same but manufactured in Oz and China, one will cost a lot more. Moving labour intensive work offshore is just a way to avoid all the safety nets built in for our workers and increase corporate profits. The longer term affects will be bad for us and are already being felt. Loss of key infrastructure, lack of skilled workers, no training infrastructure leading to a general weakening of our industries and our ability to be self sufficient.

[Master Splinter]

But a lot of the expensive stuff is made in an overseas country with poor conditions and cheap labour on the same production lines as the cheap stuff.

I can understand the MTBF argument, but to me it still does not account for the price differential - especially with simple, low parts count items where their might be only three or four 'critical' assembly points where a high level of precision is needed.

Mind you, we toolies have it easy - if you like premium chocolate, it's worse... (http://www.dallasfood.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=78)

[Chris Vesper]

(caution, rant coming :rolleyes: ) As you increase the Mean Time Between Failure (MTBF or reliability) you have an increasing burden on just about every aspect of the manufacturing processes - including training. There is a rule of thumb that 80% of the work is in the last 20% of the reliability. 100% reliability is generally accepted as being way past affordable.

The cost of tooling may be about the same if it is capable of the same tolerences. Regular quality checks and maintenance to maintain the required tolerances to guarantee the MTBF at a high level has additional costs. Similarly, package design can be more expensive if you ship and store for longer periods. Materials need to be different if the MTBF is higher - a ten hour tool probably does not need UV stabilisers whereas a trade tool does (add $).

There are a thousand variations and it is overly simplistic to say there are ten ounces of plastic, 20 ounces of steel in each tool, so why not the same price. I guess it would be equal to selling racehorses by the kilo, there's more to it than that.


That's basically what I was going to say. :aro-u:

I know I am jumping on this thread a little bit late, but I only just found it, and I feel very strongly about this topic. OK??

Being in the top end of the tool market myself I know there is a lot more to quality than simply higher spec materials. You need higher spec machinery and more manufacturing processes to complete work to a higher standard.

Well guess what guys,(Being a bit cheeky here) I'm one step ahead of you all: check out this poster I had on my stand for the first time at the Melbourne Wood Show last October.

http://www.chris-v.com/aboutus/images/Environmentally%20tools.JPG

It gives me THE SHYTES NO END to see people wasting their money, their time, and other resourses, (ie; jobs buggered up) on cheap crap because it is ingrained in them that that is all they need. Partially due to the clever marketiong tactics of companies not to be mentioned. Thus the consumer is led to believe that the product will offer them everything they will ever need, and more. (it slices, it dices, and makes your F***** coffee too...oh and it self cleanes and puts itself back in the cupboard when it's finished)

I am not here to push my own barrow with my own Brand of tools, but to try and help people realize that you will acheive so much more with better quality tools.
1) You will be able to do the work to a higher standard. A lot of people don't realize the shyte tools will drag your work down to their level, but Quality tools will bring your standard up through inspiration, often without you even realizing.
2) It will happen quicker (means less time spent working, more time for (insert favourite pasttime here))
3) You will be less likely to stuff up.
3A) Better tools are more versatile, you need less of them to get stuff done.
4) When all finished, if you look after the tools, you will have them to use again, in a year's time, 3 years, 5 years and for the rest of your life!!!
5) You will enjoy your work more, hopefully...

There is saying I quote to potential customers of mine, read my signature down there :aro-d:

That's a beauty I reckon.

In my own personal experience, I have seen the poor side of the spectrum, I couldn't afford jack when I started woodworking as a hobby, (that is actually had a lot to do with why I started making tools in the first place) I have had the $14 marking gauge, and the $22 block plane. I still keep them, only so I can get them out every now and then for a laugh, and say "I can't believe they really expect people to get anything done with these" :doh: After which I turn back to my bench and continue making my range of tools whilst I bash my head against the wall because not enough people are buying them.

If I need a tool, or a machine, or something, I will now wait until I can save enough $$ for the real thing. Every time I do that, as frustrating as it can be to wait, I end up with a big grin in the end.:U :U

Hope I havn't ruffled any feathers in my rantings, I am not always known for being PC. But I do hope this will help make a difference to the way people think.

Cheers,
Chris.

[Barry_White]

I reckon the best solution is going to come from government introducing legislation to make us more efficient with resource use (yeah, yeah, government control is bad - but let's face it, no-one is going to start this on their own).


Well that's not going to happen whilst the government collects 10% of everything that is sold

[Ianab]

The cost of manufacturing isn't adding the $100.

But say for example the $20 tool costs $5 for the factory to make. If they make a decent one, put in $2 bearings instead of .20cent bearings etc, it cost $25 to make. Same markups down the distribution chain = $100 tool. OK thats simplified, but I bet it's close to what happens :wink:

Likewise if you hire another guy to actually check the thing is assembled right and maybe even works, there is another cost. You want to actually have spare parts available.. that costs too.

Now I've bought some cheap tools over the years, usually because they have been 'good enough' to do a particular job that I needed done. But for a regular use tool I'm willing to pay for something decent that will last for years.

Cheers

Ian

[bsrlee]

Strangely enough, the 'CE' have actually enacted legislation that requires all those tool be made of recycleable materials and be recycled as well. An example of the cost/benefit thingie would be Bosch green tools - made in Chaiwan or where ever, but made to "CE" standards for recycling etc.

Pricing is a good bit above Ozito, but not ridiculously so - I see 12volt cordless drills for less than $100 from Bosch in a lot of shops.

As far as cordless tools go, the best thing that 'government' could do is mandate easily repackable battery packs and possibly standardised pack designs so every model doesn't have a unique fitting.

[BobL]

The cost of manufacturing isn't adding the $100.

But say for example the $20 tool costs $5 for the factory to make. If they make a decent one, put in $2 bearings instead of .20cent bearings etc, it cost $25 to make. Same markups down the distribution chain = $100 tool. OK thats simplified, but I bet it's close to what happens :wink:



As Gumby says volume is very important (maybe more than unit price).

Its total sales that keeps you afloat, not just unit price.

Lets say you need $100k to run your company for the year.

Mr Ozeetoe wholesales $10 power tools and makes $1 profit per too so he needs to sell 100000 cover cost

Mr Nozeetoe wholesales $100 power tools and makes $20 per tool but needs sell 5000 to cover costs.

When average Joe opens his wallet to buy a tool that low price tool has a good chance of winning more than 20:1.

So why doesn't Mr Nozeeto wholesale his drills for $10? Whole lot of reasons, probably because he will go broke investing in advertizing or plant, or in cutting a slice to a major retailer to get his sales up to 100000 per year since he doesn't have the commercial backing to do this.

Cheers

[falcon]

I
I am fond of reminding everyone that it's consumers that drive the manufacture, not vice versa. If in the case of battery tools, people started replacing the batteries instead of replacing the cheap tool, then the waste would cease with the current batch of manufacture!
P

I can not agree that its consumers that drive manufacture. IMO its technology that drives manufacture and consumer spending. I have to agree, why not just replace a battery rather then buy a new drill. The problem is by the time you come to replace your old 9.6v battery, you can buy a 14.4v drill for a few more dollars - so which is better value??

I have 4 cordless drills now. The old blue Makita - stuffed battery (again), a 9.6v Bosch which was my quality drill purchase. Battery for it went about 18mths again and Ive just spent $60 on a new battery because I just couldn't let it sit in the cupboard not being used.

I also have a GMC which i bought for a second drill to save changing bits and an Otzio with twin battery pack which I purchased about 12 mths ago to replace Bocsh as it was cheaper then a battery for the Bosch.

If we didn't have technology, we'd still be using a brace and bit, not to mention we wouldn't be having this discussion on a web forum :D.