Speed Camera Fines

[silentC]

Speeding fines may come to sudden halt (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/speeding-fines-may-come-to-sudden-halt/2006/08/23/1156012614351.html)

Great, so now the NSW State Govt is going to spend millions defending speed camera fines and then, once they lose, paying back all the fines. I think it's time to relocate the Victorian border...

[Stuart]

Speed cameras....operated by Tenix under contract, vs honest policing.........hmm. decisions decisions.





(I'm not a Tenix fan if anyone was wondering - even to the extent that I turned down a $70k job offer back in 2002.)

[DanP]

Another Judge who wants his name in the paper for a bit... Great. Going by his opinion, no speed infringement would be valid. All speed measuring devices are calibrated annually, a legislated requirement. I doubt this is any different for cameras. http://www.ubeaut.biz/wanker.gif

Dan

[silentC]

While we're on the subject, what's your opinion on this:

We have both 60kph and 50kph zones in town. When you enter Pambula down the highway from Merimbula, you pass a 50kph sign. When you enter Pambula from Pambula Beach, you pass a 60kph sign and about a km down the road you pass a 50kph sign. All good, except before the 50 sign, there are two side streets that come off the Pambula Beach road and connect to the highway on the town side of the 50 sign. So you are going from a 60 zone to a 50 zone without any signs.

In fact, I could drive from P. Beach, take the first right before the 50 sign, turn left onto the highway and drive right through Pambula blissfully unaware that I was now in a 50 zone. So if Mr Plod is sitting on the highway and he pings me for 10k over the speed limit, would it stick?

[ian]

While we're on the subject, what's your opinion on this:

We have both 60kph and 50kph zones in town. When you enter Pambula down the highway from Merimbula, you pass a 50kph sign. When you enter Pambula from Pambula Beach, you pass a 60kph sign and about a km down the road you pass a 50kph sign. All good, except before the 50 sign, there are two side streets that come off the Pambula Beach road and connect to the highway on the town side of the 50 sign. So you are going from a 60 zone to a 50 zone without any signs.

In fact, I could drive from P. Beach, take the first right before the 50 sign, turn left onto the highway and drive right through Pambula blissfully unaware that I was now in a 50 zone. So if Mr Plod is sitting on the highway and he pings me for 10k over the speed limit, would it stick?Silent
There are two "default" speed limits in NSW
50 km/h in built-up areas (which IIRC is defined as kerb & gutter and/or street lights), and
100 km/h everywhere else
everthing else is a posted limit, i.e. there's a sign

So in your example is the area "built-up" ? The street lights might only be 40W fluros every 100 to 200 metres or so.


ian

[DanP]

Silent,

The speed limit on a sign applies to the length of the road it is posted on, unless another speed sign is posted or it says "50 Area", In which case it applies to a network of roads and each entry/egress point must have "50 area" and "End 50 Area" signs posted.

The law on speeds is that if you are on a road, regardless if you have passed a speed sign or not, you are assumed to know the speed limit. In built up areas, this is easy. If you don't know the speed limit, you should be doing 50. So put simply, yes, it would stick.

A built up area in Victoria is an area where there are buildings on land next to the road, or, there are street lights at intervals not greater than 100mtrs for a distance of at least 500mtrs or if the road is shorter than 500mtrs, the whole road.

Dan

[ian]

Dan
While I understand and share your frustration, and don't like the idea that those who can afford the "right" lawyer can get off, I also appreciate that "rules of evidence" must be adhered to because it's those rules that provide some protection to those individuals the State would like to set-up. A classic example are the "Guilford Seven"

As to this case, using legislation to define something a scientific instrument doesn't make it so and if the RTA can't demonstrate ("prove beyond reasonable doubt") that their speed cameras work as advertised then, tough. Afterall it wouldn't take much effort to send a properly instrumented police car through each camera every so often to check that the speed recorded by the camera matched the car's recorded speed.


ian

[DanP]

Definition of built up area from RTA Road Users Handbook.

Built up area – in relation to a length of road, means
an area in which there are buildings on land next
to the road, or there is street lighting, at intervals
not over 100 metres for a distance of at least 500
metres or, if the road is shorter than 500 metres,
for the whole road.

[DanP]

While I understand and share your frustration, and don't like the idea that those who can afford the "right" lawyer can get off, I also appreciate that "rules of evidence" must be adhered to because it's those rules that provide some protection to those individuals the State would like to set-up. A classic example are the "Guilford Seven"

Mate, This is nothing to do with rules of evidence or the cost of the appeal or conspiracies about the Govt setting people up. It is simply a judge making a crap decision (again).


As to this case, using legislation to define something a scientific instrument doesn't make it so

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but if the legislation says it is a scientific instrument, then the court is bound to call it a scientific instrument.



if the RTA can't demonstrate ("prove beyond reasonable doubt") that their speed cameras work as advertised then, tough.

Again, this is not about whether the thing is accurate or not, it is about how often it is calibrated. My handheld radar, laser or moving mode radar is calibrated once a year, which is good enough for any court, how is that different to a speed camera.


Afterall it wouldn't take much effort to send a properly instrumented police car through each camera every so often to check that the speed recorded by the camera matched the car's recorded speed.

You're kidding aren't you. Do you know how many speed camera's there are? What a rediculous waste of police resources. When they are calibrated they go off to an independant institution, RMIT in Victoria and are tested and sealed. The operator checks them for accuracy each day. Why isn't this enough. Seems stupid to use it for one day, send it off for a week or two to be calibrated, use it for one day etc. What a joke time for judges to get in the real world.

Dan

[swiftden]

In SA our hand held lasers and radars are calibrated every 12 months and this is good by the judges. I do not know abou the cameras as the police force does not operate them . they are run by a contract company .

[Doughboy]

SilentC

Are you a native of Pambula?

Or do you just know about the tranquil little town that it is..

Pete

[ozwinner]

We have just had a good one in Whittlesea.

The 60 kms zone south down Plenty Rd has just been lenghtened by 1km, there are no houses, no street lights, it is just empty paddocks both sides.

Everyone is assuming its just for revenue raising. :(

Al :)

[DanP]

Or it might be for the same reason we have an 80 zone for 5km's of the main hwy up here, too many stacks.

Dan

[ozwinner]

80 Ks I could live with, but 60?
The only way I can do it, is to stick the yoot on cruise for the 1k.

Im thinking of employing a man with a red flag to walk in front of me to warn off the peasents.

Al :)

[echnidna]

Im thinking of employing a man with a red flag to walk in front of me to warn off the peasents.

Al :)

Whats the pay??????????????? :cool: :cool:

Is there an apprenticeship, :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

wottabout a bad back ;) ;)

[silentC]

If you have a look at the map I included, the section of Pambula Beach Road between the 60 and the 50 signs has houses and street lights most of the way along it. Don't know why the 50 sign was put where it was, seems arbitrary to me. In fact, from about where the 50 sign is onwards, there are no houses at all, only industrial units. So they obviously care more about Robert Smith Home Furnishings customers than they do about residents!

Don't know why they don't just make the lot 50 and be done with it.

It's OK to say "you should know the speed limit" but say I'm not a local (which, yes Pete, I am) and I hadn't passed a 50 sign, how would I know I was breaking the law? The surroundings don't look any different until you get into the main drag where the shops are.

[Barry_White]

I once got booked in Ballina Street Lismore for doing 67kph in a 60 zone The ticket said that I was booked between Three Chain Road Lismore and a street just near the Wollongbah Tafe College which is a distance of about 7klms which goes through three street and road name changes and four suburbs over that distance.

I thought I will take this to court and fight it and in the end I couldn't afford the time and just paid the fine.

Three weeks later there was a business man in Lismore got booked in exactly the same spot and under the same conditions and he went to court with a smart solicitor and won the case and had it thrown out.

The law sometimes is a complete ass and very inconsistant and most times it is only revenue raising.

[Barry_White]

Another inconsistancy today I went through a village called Somerton on the Oxley Highway going to Gunnedah to the Agquip Field Days and as you come into the village a sign says all the streets in Somerton have a 50KPH speed limit and as you go up the road another 50 metres there is a 60 k sign. Talk about confusing.

[craigb]

One thing I've noticed country driving in NSW.

Some towns have at the entrance to the town, "All streets in Buggery have 50 kph limits"

Then you usually hit a 60 kph sign

Others have the sign "Some streets in West Buggery have 50 kph limits" .

Then you usually hit a 60 kph sign. :confused:

It's all very odd.

[dazzler]

Well done Mr Solicitor

Too often law enforcement forgets there are rules. Do things right and bobs ya uncle....take short cuts, dont do the hard work to make sure everything is correct then pay the price.:rolleyes:

[Iain]

And who supplies the red flag Al? does it need to be calibrated every year? Is it Worksafe approved?

[bennylaird]

Some towns have at the entrance to the town, "All streets in Buggery have 50 kph limits"

.


Always wondered where that place was. Dad was always telling me to go there.:D

[ozwinner]

And who supplies the red flag Al? does it need to be calibrated every year? Is it Worksafe approved?

You can get them here.

www.redflagsareus.com.au (http://www.redflagsareus.com.au)

Al :p

[DanP]

Too often law enforcement forgets there are rules. Do things right and bobs ya uncle....take short cuts, dont do the hard work to make sure everything is correct then pay the price.:rolleyes:

I don't think that's applicable in this case. The matter was thrown out based on the frequency of calibration. Thats hardly the fault of the operator.

Dan

[dazzler]

I don't think that's applicable in this case. The matter was thrown out based on the frequency of calibration. Thats hardly the fault of the operator.

Dan

Who blamed the operator:confused:

The policy section that approved them is at fault. Every time the thing is touched it should be recalibrated. Once a year is ridiculous and open to appeal.

Particularly with radar devices the operator should (required in most states) test the calibaration at the start and end of each shift.

The arguement that can be used is that the radar has sat there for a year, trucks rumbling past, winds, rain etc going in and out of calibration over 365 days.

This is what i am talking about. Policy/legal need to be across this stuff.

Here is a good example of short cuts.

Back in about 1993 the ACT brought in Laser 'guns'. They were not gazetted but relied on a radar qualified officer to use them and they were a back up to his/her estimation. This is fine given that a qualified radar operater was considered an expert in speed estimation.

Due to the amount of fines being generated they let non radar operators use them (general duties police) and it flipped to relying on the instrument not the officers expertise. This went on for some years until they were gazettted. Lucky for ACT the public took them as gospel.

Short cuts.:rolleyes:

[Daddles]

sic 'im Dan. You know you want to ;)

Richard

[DanP]

Every time the thing is touched it should be recalibrated.

Rubbish. They are calibrated once a year by experts and checked before and after use for accuracy by the operator. I can't see how this is a problem. If it is accurate at the start of the shift and at the end of the shift, there should be no issue.


Particularly with radar devices the operator should (required in most states) test the calibaration at the start and end of each shift.

And if that was done in this case, how can a Judge question it. Calibration once a year is more than good enough. I have only seen one radar go out of whack before the end of the year and that was because it got wet.


The arguement that can be used is that the radar has sat there for a year, trucks rumbling past, winds, rain etc going in and out of calibration over 365 days.

Which should be picked up by the trained operator who diligently checks it before he starts taking photos.

My point is, Calibrated yearly is more than good enough if the operator checks the unit for accuracy before and after use, as he is required to do by legislation. For a Judge to disregard the legislated requirements and put his own requirements over and above those that have worked for 15 years shows gross ignorance IMO. Maybe it's a plot to get Marcus Einfeld out of his spot of bother...:rolleyes:

Dan

[Barry_White]

There has been a lot of discussion on this issue, but I thought that what what was brought out in the media and they were talking about were the stationary speed cameras operated by the RTA in NSW which are only checked once a year.

There wasn't an issue with speed cameras operated by the NSW police that were checked for accuracy at the start and finish of each shift.

So I think the whole issue has been blown out of all proportion

[dazzler]

The point I am making is that once a year is just asking for trouble. Its a short cut to save $$.

They are talking about fixed speed cameras that rake in 100s of $1000 every year. Now I dont agree every day is anything near reasonable but at least every month and if this had been done then the issue may not have arisen.

Blind freddie could see that twelve months was a loophole that would one day be pursued.

I travel on a section of road with two fixed speed cameras that seem to be getting serviced each week. Simply take one out, put a recalibrated/serviced one each week/fortnight/month.

[DanP]

I thought we were talking about operated speed cameras. Not fixed. If fixed cameras are only looked at once a year, I'm with you.

Dan

[Auld Bassoon]

Rubbish. They are calibrated once a year by experts and checked before and after use for accuracy by the operator. I can't see how this is a problem. If it is accurate at the start of the shift and at the end of the shift, there should be no issue.

Dan

Perhaps a bit different (although I suspect not), I've used marine radars for quite some years, at least until the early '90s, and once calibrated they did tend to stay that way. In a way, it's akin to setting a radio receiver; once set, it stays set, except with a radar it's both an emitter and a receiver, but the basic argument applies.

I have no argument about their use in principle, but I do object to their placement in some cases.

[dazzler]

I thought we were talking about operated speed cameras. Not fixed. If fixed cameras are only looked at once a year, I'm with you.

Dan

DanP and Dazzler together......:D

[DanP]

:eek:

[bennylaird]

:D If you guys want to talk about real Radars, lasers, etc etc just yell out. 2megawatt is a decent size to begin with and lasers around 5 megawatt, other stuff is just toying with it...:D