AAAArrrrrgggghhhh!. Another IT problem with setting up a home network! [Archive]

felixe

23rd July 2006, 10:46 AM

So here is my situation, :(
I have a d-link switch model DS 1005D which is an un-managed 5 port switch, I have it connected to by cable modem, a motorola 5101i. and also connected to 2 computers, each one connected to the switch by a seperate cable.
I can connect either computer to the internet via the switch, but cannot connect both at the same time.:( If I am connected to the net on Computer A then to connect to the net with computer B I must log off computer A, reset the router (turn the power off for more than 5 seconds) then restart the router and connect computer B by "repairing" the IP Address, and connecting to the network.:eek: A lot of work for such a simple task!
My questions to all the IT Gurus are:
how can I set up this switch "thing" so that the entire process of connecting to the net becomes automatic?
Have I bought the wrong switch, do I need a managed switch ( whatever that means!)?
Do I need software or additional hardware to overcome the situation?
Should I just go by a router instead?:confused:

I have no experience in networks - I do know my way around the operating system of my computer, and how to solve basic hardware problems, but this network thing is all new to me!:o

Thanks,
Felixe.:)

Wood Butcher

23rd July 2006, 10:56 AM

Felixe, I know the feeling. I had a similar problem with my network but fortunately my best mate was in town that week and he's an IT techy. All I can remember is something about the "DHCP" settings:confused:. Good Luck, and I hope someone can offer some real advice!

Gumby

23rd July 2006, 11:41 AM

Hi felixe,
I think it goes back to our original discussion about the need for a router. Something needs to be asigning ip addresses and it isn't happening.
I think this will answer your question. It was cut from the Motorola site. I got it when searching specifically for the 5101i model.

Q: Motorola’s Cable Modem Products have a USB and Ethernet connection. Can I use both of these ports to support two PCs at the same time?

A: Australian Cable Internet Service providers do not support this mode of operation. To have more than two PC’s connected at the one time; you will need to install a router behind your Cable Modem.

You need either a computer with 2 network cards connected to your modem, have connection sharing enabled, connect the second compuiter to it and it will work. As we said before however, traffic goes through the first computer to the second machine so it can affect performance and the first (host) computer needs to be on for the second to work. Otherwise, the router connected to the modem and then the 2 computers connected to the router is the best method. The router connects to the internet, has it's own ip address (assigned by the provider, just as if it were a computer), it then jhas ports to connect computers to it. That way, the computers can be on independantly of each other.

Coldamus

23rd July 2006, 11:48 AM

Felixe,

First a disclaimer. I am not a networking expert.

Now to the nitty gritty. Are you using static ip addressing (manually entering a fixed ip address for each computer) or automatic ip addressing (allowing Windows to automatically allocate the ip addresses)?

When you refer to the router, do you have a separate router or are you talking about the motorola cable modem (i.e. it is a combined modem/router)?

If the latter, I have a similar setup but different brands (Alcatel modem/router and Skymaster switch).

Mine would only work with automatic ip addressing.

Regards
Coldamus

Gumby

23rd July 2006, 12:06 PM

manually setting ip addresses works but you have to have something making the connection to the internet which gets an automatically assigned address from the provider.

You have the first computer connected, which gets it's ip address from the internet on one of it's network cards. It will then issue ip addresses to other computers connected to it via a second network card. This second card can be connected to a second computer directly, or to the switch. Other computers can then connect to the switch as well. You must have interne connection sharing enabled on the the first computer to do this.

It goes like this:
The network card in the host computer connect to the internet would have the ip address issued by the service provider. The second card in that computer has a manually assigned address of 192.168.0.1 and a subnet mask of 255.255.255.0
It gets connect to the switch (or direct to a computer). The send computer gets ip 192.168.0.2 and the same subnet mask. It has a gateway set as 192.168.0.1 so it know where to get the internet connection from.

There is no benefit in having a switch if you only need to connect 2 computers to the internet.

Disclaimer: I'm only home taught but I have set up our office network using a host computer before we got a router/modem. I had manual ip addresses on out network with no problems at all.

felixe

23rd July 2006, 01:06 PM

Hi Guys,
The disclaimer is not necessary, I understand that everyone has different levels of expertise, if someone puts up any funny advice I am sure they will be shot down quickly by others!!
So, to reply p- the IP address is automatically assigned by the computer(s) (windows xp). The router is in the modem, not a seperate unit.
It sounds like I should get rid of the switch and get a router!
I can get the network "to work" so that the network connections tell me they are connected at mbps, that the status is "connected" and the duration timer runs, but when this is happening then neither computer can actually connect to the internet.

felixe

23rd July 2006, 01:12 PM

Q: Motorola’s Cable Modem Products have a USB and Ethernet connection. Can I use both of these ports to support two PCs at the same time?

A: Australian Cable Internet Service providers do not support this mode of operation. To have more than two PC’s connected at the one time; you will need to install a router behind your Cable Modem.

Hi Gumby, I just went to that site and started reading the FAQ. My understanding of this is I cannot connect two computers directly to the modem. When I spoke to the optus support guy , he said to use a switch or a router (did say a router was a more expensive but easier option - to which I now agree), therefore I didn't think this was an issue as I am using the switch - am I wrong on this issue?
I would like to get this working as I will learn something at the same time.

Gumby

23rd July 2006, 01:16 PM

Sort of... :)

The ip address is assigned by XP ONLY IF you have internet connection sharing ENABLED on that particular connection.
I don't believe your modem is actually a router as well. If it isn't, then you can only connect 2 computers by having 2 network cards in one as stated in my earlier post OR by getting a router as I have done.

There is a good site I used to use years ago for all this
www.ozcableguy.com.au
I haven't needed it for a long time but is was very helpful and had diagrams which might help you out.

Gumby

23rd July 2006, 01:23 PM

himzol

23rd July 2006, 01:59 PM

Felixe,

Gumby has explained it pretty well, have a look at the following : in your situation what seems to be missing is the router.

http://www.dlink.com/products/resource.asp?pid=229&rid=1504&sec=0

Go on tell the missus you need to buy a router to make the computer work.. you know you want to..:D :D :D

Gumby

23rd July 2006, 02:03 PM

That link does explain it BUT you don't need the switch shown there. The D-Link router I suggested in the previous thread has 4 ports to connect other 'puters to, so having a router AND a switch is only necessary IF you have more than 4 'puters you need connected. That's what I do at work where we have the router, switch and 8 connections.

Ianab

23rd July 2006, 02:55 PM

Gumby has the right idea.

You need one of these.. http://www.dlink.com/products/?sec=0&pid=478

And connect it like this..http://www.dlink.com/products/resource.asp?pid=478&rid=1831&sec=0

It will work with your switch, if you need more connections, but you can connect 4 PCs directly to the router.

Cheers

Ian

felixe

23rd July 2006, 03:12 PM

Yeah I got onto the website before aqnd got a similar config:rolleyes: .
So my next question - Does anyone want to buy an "as new switch? Only 2 days old and still under warranty?:o

snowyskiesau

23rd July 2006, 03:26 PM

To confirm what others have said, you will need a router to allow multiple PC's to concurrently share a single cable connection.
The router will be assigned an IP address from the ISP, your PC's will either be given a fixed IP address by you or may use DHCP to get one from the router - most routers provide a built in DHCP server.
Have a look at http://www.ozcableguy.com for further information and reviews of various routers.

Feel free to contact me off list if you like.

Gumby

23rd July 2006, 03:43 PM

Yeah I got onto the website before aqnd got a similar config:rolleyes: .
So my next question - Does anyone want to buy an "as new switch? Only 2 days old and still under warranty?:o

Why not take it back and see if you can swap it for the router and pay the difference. Tell them it didn't work as you expected and you got the wrong thing. If it's a small shop, it shouldn't be a problem.

But as i said rifght at the beginning in the previous thread, make sure the router is one which will suit your connection.

felixe

23rd July 2006, 04:31 PM

The nearest small shop to me at work at this time is Harris technology, they only accept unopened returns - I did ask the guys there and they said a switch "should do" but I don't like my chances, but I will try!

Yeah, I know and I kick myself for not listening. What I should have done and have done since then is to log onto the d-link web site. I typed in my requirements and the router recommended was a 704p or 704up so that is what I will get.

felixe

23rd July 2006, 04:33 PM

Could not get out of Italics - sorry!

chrisb691

23rd July 2006, 08:29 PM

I will not say I told you so. But I did! :D

felixe

23rd July 2006, 09:27 PM

:o :o :o :o
Yeah I know!

Cliff Rogers

24th July 2006, 04:13 PM

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you... I was(am) busy.

I've read the book, I've glanced at what everyone else says & I reckon it should work.

Attached is page 41 of the book BUT.... in the fine print on page 40 it says....

Not all service providers support multiple user service. For information about multiple user service, contact your cable service provider.

ernknot

24th July 2006, 04:30 PM

My router must be an old model, it just cuts wood.

Gumby

24th July 2006, 05:03 PM

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you... I was(am) busy.

I've read the book, I've glanced at what everyone else says & I reckon it should work.

Attached is page 41 of the book BUT.... in the fine print on page 40 it says....

Cliff, I think that small print hits it on the head. They will only support ONE ip address. So that means either a router, or a computer must maintain the connection and then distribute the traffic to other computers connected within the LAN. If a router is connected for instance, as far as the provider is concerned, all the traffic is going to ONE ip address only. The fact that the router can then distribute it out to as many computers as you like is of no concern to the service provider.

The diagram shown in your link would require different ip addresses to be distributed from the provider to each individual computer because the hub or switch can't. And as the small print says, they don't. (Unless you pay for the extra connection maybe)

felixe

24th July 2006, 05:14 PM

Downloaded the page, and it shows me exactly what I have set up, it is a lovely picture of my current situation. I have spoken to Optus and they said you can use a switch but I would really have to know what I am doing.
Conclusion, the switch is not a good idea! I should go with the router.
Bugger - oh well, off to ebay to sell the switch.

Gumby

24th July 2006, 05:19 PM

I have spoken to Optus and they said you can use a switch but I would really have to know what I am doing. .

That doesn't make sense to me. Why would they have developed routers if switches will do the job? Did you tell them it was for sharing the connection?

Anyway, the switch shouldn't have been too expensive. The type I use at work are only $30

I was at tandy today and a broadband D-Link router is $79

snowyskiesau

24th July 2006, 05:52 PM

The ISP will only allocate one IP address for a cable connection. In order for more than one computer on your network to use this IP address, there must be a device that provides what's called NAT - network address translation. This is where the router comes in, it translates the different IP addresses used on the PC's into the single allocated address from the ISP.

The router gets a different IP address for each of its connections - the cable modem side connection gets the ISP allocated address, the internal connection to which the PC's connect to is given a different address (Usually in the 192.168.0.0 range). The PC's are configured to have this internal router address as their default gateway.

Most small routers have an inbuilt switch to allow for a number of PC's to connect to it.

Coldamus

24th July 2006, 05:57 PM

Felixe,

My setup is virtually the same as yours - different brands of modem and switch - ADSL rather than cable - but the principle is the same. A switch works fine for me.

Also the modem works fine with no switch and with one computer connected to the usb port of the modem and the other to its ethernet port. Windows treats the usb connection as a "virtual ethernet connection", so the whole shebang acts like a normal ethernet network.

Someone mentioned that simultaeous use of the usb and ethernet connections is not supported. True, it is not supported by the internet service provider (too hard for them to troubleshoot) but it is supported by the modem and it works - otherwise why would they bother. Still, I do not recommend it as usb is troublesome and tends to lock up often. I had mine working that way but find the switch much easier and more reliable.

It is the modem that makes the connection to the ISP and is allocated an ip address. The isp can't tell whether there are one or 100 computers attached to your side of the switch. The modem and your ISP are on one network - a wan. The computers on your side of the switch are on a different network - your lan. The reason that a router is necessary is to translate and route traffic between the two networks. It doesn't work quite as Gumby said but he's on the right track and I don't know enough to explain it any better.

You referred to your modem earlier as a router and I would almost bet that is does include a router since it has both usb and ethernet ports. My Alcatel modem certainly does. I note that Cliff has found the manual for your modem. I did a google search but could not find it.

If it includes a router there's no need to shell out for another separate router - just have to figure out how to configure yours.

regards
Coldamus

Gumby

24th July 2006, 05:58 PM

is there an echo in here :confused:

Coldamus

24th July 2006, 06:07 PM

is there an echo in here :confused:

Probably, but the SnowySkiesAu guy knows what he's on about. Also you guys type faster than me, so I will butt out from here on. Would love to see that manual though!

regards
Coldamus

Gumby

24th July 2006, 06:09 PM

Probably, but the SnowySkiesAu guy knows what he's on about. Also you guys type faster than me, so I will butt out from here on. Would love to see that manual though!

regards
Coldamus

It's his post I was referring to. He said what I'v been saying for 3 days :D

But if his modem was also a router, we wouldn't have ever stared this topic. It would have worked straight out with the switch.

felixe

24th July 2006, 06:18 PM

I have the manual, it can be downloaded from http://broadband.motorola.com/consumers/products/SB5101/downloads/SB5101_UG_EN.pdf
and I am currently reading through it.

I forgot what else I was going to type:eek:

Now I remember, I did tell the optus tech guy that I was sharing a connection and that was the answer given.
Cliff mentioned previously he thought it was highly probable that it contained a router, I should have gotten of my #### sooner and researched it properly. I will let you know if it does and if it can be configured.
This is all very new and interesting.
It still would be easier to buy a router but I can be a stubborn bugger!!!!!!!

felixe

24th July 2006, 06:22 PM

oops, got censored, I didn't know a#se counted as a rude word, sorry guys!

snowyskiesau

24th July 2006, 06:34 PM

According to the 5101 manual, the cable modem can act as a DHCP server allocating up to 32 IP addresses for multiple PC's. This implies that it also does NAT as the IP addresses it allocates are in the 192.168.100.1 - 192.168.100.42 range.
This will need to be enabled in your modem. To do this, point your browser at the admininstration address of the modem: http://192.168.100.1
On the Configuration page thare is an option, DHCP server enabled, tick this then click on Save. You'll need to click on Restart Cable Modem.
There is no guaranteer that this will work as the feature might be disabled by your ISP (They can configure the modem remotely)

I didn't pick up on this modem feature earlier as like most people with multiple computers on their local network, I run a router/firewall.

Gumby

24th July 2006, 06:42 PM

It still would be easier to buy a router but I can be a stubborn bugger!!!!!!!

:D :D we know :D :D

According to the 5101 manual, the cable modem can act as a DHCP server allocating up to 32 IP addresses for multiple PC's. This implies that it also does NAT as the IP addresses it allocates are in the 192.168.100.1 - 192.168.100.42 range.
This will need to be enabled in your modem. To do this, point your browser at the admininstration address of the modem: http://192.168.100.1
On the Configuration page thare is an option, DHCP server enabled, tick this then click on Save. You'll need to click on Restart Cable Modem.
There is no guaranteer that this will work as the feature might be disabled by your ISP (They can configure the modem remotely)

I didn't pick up on this modem feature earlier as like most people with multiple computers on their local network, I run a router/firewall.
Nice pick up. It will be interesting to see if it works.

felixe

24th July 2006, 06:47 PM

I'll let you know in a couple of hours, I gotta go to school, bye for now!

snowyskiesau

24th July 2006, 06:49 PM

I might be wrong WRT what I previously said about the cable modem and DHCP. I just re-read the modem web page and it states:

The SURFboard cable modem can be used as a gateway to the Internet by a maximum of 32 users on a Local Area Network (LAN). When the Cable Modem is disconnected from the Internet, users on the LAN can be dynamically assigned IP Addresses by the Cable Modem DHCP Server. These addresses are assigned from an address pool which begins with 192.168.100.11 and ends with 192.168.100.42. Statically assigned IP addresses for other devices on the LAN should be chosen from outside of this range.

This probably means that the DHCP fuction only works when there is no connection to the internet. This would make some sense as the modem is not capable of acting as a DHCP client i.e. to get an IP address from the ISP.
There is nothing in any of the Motorola docs that clarifies this. I can't see any reference to it on the various networking forums I've searched.

sbranden

24th July 2006, 08:37 PM

You should be able to just use USB to connect to the first computer, then use your current switch and a normal ethernet cable to connect to the second via the network cards/ ports. Just turn on internet sharing (or whatever NAT is called in windows). If you have already sold the switch then use a crossover cable.

Alternatives I would try are:
1. look in the modem config pages (see post above) and turn on dhcp/ nat, then just use the switch and have the two compters run off it.

2. find a give away 486 PC or above with a floppy drive and install a floppy based linux firewall/ router OS like freesco. Hook this up to your switch and you have much more protection, power and control

3. drop your current ISP for a decent one like internode and get real service from the help desk.

Feel free to email me on [email protected] or PM - I am happy to help.

shaun

Gumby

24th July 2006, 09:17 PM

We're going around in so many circles I think my lunch is going to come up. Please, felixe, mate, buddy, pal, best friend (I"ll even marry you if it helps) JUST BUY THE D-LINK!!! and put us out of this misery. :rolleyes:

;)

felixe

24th July 2006, 10:02 PM

Sbranden,
I was told by the tech guy who installed the modem that USB is terribly unreliable, so that is out because it would sh#t me to tears with it dropping out.
I have just setup for option 1.
Option 2 sounds harder than just buying a router.
Option 3 requires me to cancel my contract and pay optus more money than I would have to outlay for option 2 and a router combined!
However thank you for your input, and your invitation for assistance, it is always appreciated how everyone helps a techno retard like me!

snowskiesau,
If,
"This probably means that the DHCP fuction only works when there is no connection to the internet. This would make some sense as the modem is not capable of acting as a DHCP client i.e. to get an IP address from the ISP".
means that, for instance, I can get the network status up and running, and the LAN connection status panel for each computer tells me that each computer has:
An address type assigned by DHCP, and
The IP address is 220.230.71.10 for Computer A and 220.230.71.11 for computer B, and
the status is connected, and
the speed on both computers is the same,
and the duration timer is running, BUT
I cannot log onto the internet because the cable modem is disconnected from the internet, then this is true!. Because the above scenario is as far as I have got!. Even with the modem running (all lights flashing) and the network status saying everything is fine, I cannot get online.
Does this make sense?.
So in conclusion???

felixe

24th July 2006, 10:06 PM

C''mon Gumby isn't this fun?:p

Cliff Rogers

24th July 2006, 10:20 PM

....So in conclusion???

I've got a couple of 2nd hand Snapgear Routers. :D

Gumby

24th July 2006, 10:32 PM

C''mon Gumby isn't this fun?:p

It used to be :(

:D

felixe

24th July 2006, 10:41 PM

A whatgear router?
1/2 or 1/4 inch?

echnidna

24th July 2006, 10:55 PM

Yer use them to catch snapper

felixe

24th July 2006, 11:00 PM

Oh well, that's no good for me then, I don't think there are any in Brisbane river and I don't own a tinnie.:(

Coldamus

24th July 2006, 11:19 PM

I said I'd butt out but can't help myself. Felixe, I vaguely remember having a similar problem and fixed it by changing my browser settings (Internet Explorer). Under "Tools", "Internet Options", "Connections", go to "LAN settings" and ensure there's a tick in the box "Automatically detect settings" on both computers.

Also, did you do the following as posted by snowyskiesau ?

Originally Posted by snowyskiesau
According to the 5101 manual, the cable modem can act as a DHCP server allocating up to 32 IP addresses for multiple PC's. This implies that it also does NAT as the IP addresses it allocates are in the 192.168.100.1 - 192.168.100.42 range.

This will need to be enabled in your modem. To do this, point your browser at the administration address of the modem: http://192.168.100.1 (http://192.168.100.1/)
On the Configuration page there is an option, DHCP server enabled, tick this then click on Save. You'll need to click on Restart Cable Modem.

felixe

24th July 2006, 11:52 PM

Sbranden,
I tried number 1 and it didn't work.:(
I am gunna buy a router, case closed!!:D

sbranden

24th July 2006, 11:56 PM

No worries mate, ust trying to save you approximately 1/20 of a domino.

good luck with it all. Networking can be a headache.

shaun

felixe

30th July 2006, 03:44 PM

Finally,
I talked to one of our "trainees" at work, her other job is IT, previosly working OS designing web pages and setting up networks.
Her advice on the switch, "don't bother it won't work and even if it did it would require configuration ..................." at which point I blacked out!:p

Too much IT talk for me, an unIT person. Her advice on the network, sell the switch and buy the router. So I did, I have the D-Link 704UP, so we can run the printer as well. Overall an easy setup and I am very happy!

BTW Gumby, you were right.

Thanks all.

Gumby

30th July 2006, 04:17 PM

BTW Gumby, you were right.

Thanks all.

I say nothing ;)
:D

Eddie Jones

30th July 2006, 04:47 PM

"That doesn't make sense to me. Why would they have developed routers if switches will do the job? Did you tell them it was for sharing the connection?"

They don't do the same job. A router has an IP address of it's own. Then all of it's ports have different, individual IP addresses (typically in a VPN type configuration). That way the only address the outside world knows of is the router. The router then routs the incoming traffic to the appropriate port.

A switch simply connects different segments of one LAN together. It may or may not be smart enough to send packets only to the computer in question. Or it may just resend all traffic it receives out on every port connected to it. Obviously the first type costs more.

From what you describe, the router is the one for you. You generally have the additional benefits of firewall built-in.