Who Has Seniority At A Formal Meeting?

[Felder]

HELP NEEDED!

As the President of the local Bush Fire Brigade, I chair meetings at least once a month, sometimes more often. It goes without saying that at these meetings, I am the Big Cheese ( :rolleyes: ), but I will also shoot a bit of respect towards the Captain. It is very rare for me to introduce guests at these meetings, but when I do, there is usually only one guest and only one speech.

My problem is that this Friday night, we have our Annual General Meeting. There will be "VIP's" in attendance, and I know that there is some form of etiquette that should be observed as to the order in which guests are introduced and the order in which they speak. But I don't know what that order is.:o

So who goes first?

We have the local Federal Member (Kerry Bartlett), the local State Member (Bob Debus) and local Councillors. I'm assuming that they should be introduced in that order?

Then from the RFS, we have the Commissioner (Phil Koperburg), the Blue Mountains Fire Control Officer (Mal Koenig) and various other brass in descending order.

So which team goes first? The Pollies or the Firies??:confused:
Or do I introduce Fed Member, then State Member, then RFS Commish, then Councillors, then other RFS brass??

I'm really confused here and would like some sort of advice so that I don't make a complete a rse of myself on Friday night!:o
Does anyone have experience on these matters?

[Zed]

the entire assembly should remind those self serving pencil neck politico bludgers who feed from the pubic trough that they work for US not the other way round!!! if they fail to see the point they should be blasted with a fire hose up the date from 2 feet.

failing that they should be frozen and fed thru a bandsaw (felder or hammer of course)

the night is a waste anyway - it will be mutual back slapping and bull$hirt all night anyway - self congratulating b@stards. I dont doubt it will be stats review of how many fires "They saved" with thier "hard fought money donations"

koperberg has seniority. then his blokes. pollies should always go last. the @rseholes! :)

[jmk89]

Hi, Felder.
I don't know the answer, but the NSW premier's department has an Office of Protocol. Why not call them and ask? The worst they can do is say that they don't know (or they do, and they won't tell you!!).

Alternatively ask Commissioner Koperberg's office - I am sure they have had to deal with the question before.

For what it's worth, I think that the "correct" order would be:
1. Federal MP
2. State MP
3. Koperberg etc
4. Councillors
5. Others.

Of course you could just take the anarchist approach recommended by Zed....

[CameronPotter]

Zed's completely unbiased opinions aside, I think that the order is usually based upon who would get most offended/least offended at the order.

Are they sitting at a table at the front or in the audience?

If at a table, then you can introduce them in sitting order (regardless of who is where).

If in the audience, you only really introduce them as they speak.

I would put the fed. member either first or last and the Commisioner either first or last.

That way, they each get a place of respect (i.e. opening or closing comments).

Those two are clearly the two most senior people.

i.e. fed beats state and commisioner beats other firies.

The middle order can probably be jumbled about a bit to keep things interesting and interspersed.

Of course, each office probably has its own protocol saying that their person is the most important! :rolleyes:

[Sturdee]

I'm really confused here and would like some sort of advice so that I don't make a complete a rse of myself on Friday night!:o
Does anyone have experience on these matters?

Send them all an email asking what kind of saws they have in their workshop.

All those who fail to reply or don't have a workshop don't even acknowledge them at the meeting as they are not worthy.:p

As for the rest I suggest the following order : TS beats bandsaw which beats a chop saw which beats CS which beats a handsaw which beats a chain saw. And if they have a felder they can take your place at the meeting.:p

Rather simple really.:D


Peter.

[johnc]

Think of shovelling out a stable and what comes before the shovel. You are quite right, pollies first, Federal, State, Local, The brass in decending order and so forth. I don't think most people listen to hard on the intro's and tune in when everything gets underway and the freeloaders photo opper's are back in their corners.

John.

[BobR]

Hey Zed, why are you holding back. Why don't you say what you really think.:rolleyes:

[masoth]

I don't know the municipality you are in, but, if among your guests is the Mayor/Shire President he/she is recognized first - I'm sorry I don't rember the rest.
Ring your local council and ask for the protocol. Actually, it's somewhere on the internet but there's a hell of a lot of readiing to find it.

soth

[masoth]

Here is one official site, but still I don't remember if it contains what you want:
http://www.dpc.vic.gov.au/CA256D8000265E1A/page/Protocol-Arrangements+for+Official+Occasions!OpenDocument&1=90-Protocol~&2=40-Arrangements+for+Official+Occasions~&3=~

soth

[dazzler]

The one with the biggest ....HOSE!

:D

[Ashore]

Always start with comedy relief and always leave them laughing, so the clowns go first and last
Federal Minister first state minister last .:D

[Felder]

The one with the biggest ....HOSE!

:D
A fireman's pole could extinguish a pollies fire anyday, so maybe I will go with Koperburg first.:D:p

http://www.ubeaut.biz/fireman.gifhttp://www.ubeaut.biz/ecomcity.gif

Masoth's link was the sort of thing I was looking for, but doesn't really tell me where the Commish should be slotted in.

My initial thought was to introduce the pollies first, all the way down to the local Councillors, and then move to the RFS big-wigs. My next line of thinking was to introduce Federal level first, then State, then Local, but that would then mean switching between the pollies and the firies on a few occasions.

It's all too hard for such a minor point.:( Think I will go with jmk89's advice, unless someone tells me it is completely wrong.

Of course the worst bit about all this is having to travel back to the Blue Mountains for an AGM halfway through the Sydney WWW show! Knock off from the show around 5.30 to race back to the hills to run a meeting that involves 'protocols' before having a few after meeting beverages and then getting up the next morning in time to get back to the show and look bright eyed and bushy tailed.......http://www.ubeaut.biz/zonked.gif

Thanks all for your suggestions!:)

[Zed]

my real understanding is that the captain is always the master of his ship regardless of what admiral is on board; therefore he should go first. Visiting dignitorys should be introduced in order of rank unless they specify they want to be last... ferking wankers!

thus , you do the MC -
1) captain of troop
2) Koperberg, because technically he's the high up host and thus pulls rank on the parasites.
3) Koenig, because technically he's the bridesmaid and thus also pulls rank on the parasites.
4) federal wanker/liar,
5) state *rsewipe/liar,
6) local tongue-masters/wanna-be liars...

however sturdee makes a valid point.

[echnidna]

Ask your local member fed or state, about the protocol.

[Groggy]

Call the Office of Protocols mentioned or call the Federal member's office for advice - they usually know. If it is wrong then you tell him the advice came from his staff. Kinda sweet when they make a fuss and you tell them the advice came from their office.


Federal, State then Shire.
Elected officials come before appointed ones.
I'd have the Fireman last - it may put their nose out of joint but the others usually control the funds.

[Jack E]

Why should there be any set order depending on who does what for a job.

Just because somebody does a different job to somebody else doesn't put them any higher up a "pecking order"
That is why there are so many problems in the world today.

So the Federal MP may have a more important job than a State MP. (I said may)
Big deal, does this mean he is more important or that his job is.
He gets all the reward and recognition he deserves, it is called a pay packet.

This goes not only for the pollies but the firies, and anybody else for that matter.

People who think they are important need to get over themselves.
They are guests, they should be happy with that and talk when they are asked to.

[Groggy]

People who think they are important need to get over themselves.
They are guests, they should be happy with that and talk when they are asked to.The idea of who goes first is very old. In some cases it is about importance, or how close that person was to the King of the day. A Senator was closer than a councillor so obeisance was shown to the higher authority.

I prefer to think that the Federal member represents more people so therefore should go first - ie give the majority their say.

Regardless of what we think, I suspect Felder does not want to slight anyone who funds his activities, nor embarrass his fellow fireman.

Australian Order of Precedence (http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/enc3/australian_order_of_precedence).

[Buzzer]

Hi Felder,

I am a member of the QLD equivelent of your RFS. I am a volunteer and I assume you are also.
In my opinion, it is a RFS meeting, and I would of thought the RFS brass along with the heart of the organisation, the volunteers, would be given seniority.
This seems to go against the feeling of this thread, but I would assume you are directly answerable and have most contact with the RFS brass, and not the politicians.

It is a difficult one, good luck with your decision!

Cheers.

[kiwigeo]

Just get everyone to introduce themselves...the mad scramble amongst the councillors and MPs to get to the podium first should provide a bit of entertainment for all gathered.

[Jack E]

Regardless of what we think, I suspect Felder does not want to slight anyone who funds his activities, nor embarrass his fellow fireman.
Yes, you are right Groggy.

I just felt like a bit of a rant.

I agree that the idea of peoples importance goes back a long way.

That is my gripe. The days of royal families actually holding any signifigance are gone but we still have all this protocol rubbish.

People are people, no one is more important than any other, except as you say, when money is involved.

Good luck Felder, I hope your event goes well and everybody is satisfied.

Cheers, Jack

[black1]

in the navy, i think seniorority goes on the date joined the outfit. so a captain who joined on say 1\1\85 has seniorority over a captain who joined on 2\1\85. (hopefully)

[journeyman Mick]

Brendan,
I hope you take the opportunity to collar a few of the pollies and twist their arms for more money!:D A couple of our blokes went to a training weekend that the minister for emergency services attended and they proceeded to hassle him about all sorts of things. (Ie how about giving us some chainsaws left over from the cyclone clean up, and how about just giving us a bit more money so we're not scratching to equip our brigades etc etc). You're obviously not doing enough stirring if you can gather such an assembly of Very Important Useless People. ;)

Mick

[arose62]

Hey Felder,

I've got another one just like this which I can lend to you for your meeting.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showpost.php?p=281733&postcount=12

Cheers,
Andrew

[ian]

So who goes first?

This is my ranking and reasons

the local State Member (Bob Debus), don't forget to include his electorate and titles — Attorney General, Minister for the Environment and Minister for the Arts — Debus comes first because you're funding is State based

the local Federal Member (Kerry Bartlett), again include his electorate — he comes second because he's the other politician

Commissioner (Phil Koperburg),
Blue Mountains Fire Control Officer (Mal Koenig) — cause they are your bosses, introduce them individually

Local councillors — depends who and how many there are. If the Mayor or deputy is there they go first, if not it's the longest serving councillor from the Ward the brigade is located in. Then the rest as a group ranked alphabetically.

The other RFS brass may or might not be introduced. It will depend on who and how many — you don't want to spend an hour introducing everyone.


Ian

[Eastie]

The RFS should have an etiquette book that specifies meeting etiquette. The CFA use to have one.

In commonwealth etiquette the following applies: royalty, followed by Heads of State, Ministers, Ambassadors, High Commissioners and finally all others. Keep "others" to a bare minimum: ew.g. the Captain and any specially invited guests. It would not be expected that anyone lower than the most senior person from a government dept/organisation/brigade be mentioned (e.g. Commissioner / Minister / Mayor / Captain).

If it is a speech with 4 or more persons to mention you could go with a pc salutation as such:
"Your Excellencies Ministers, Councilors and Commissioner
Distinguished Fellow Officers, Firefighers and Guests
Ladies and Gentlemen".... (the rest of the speech will cost ya :D )

[Iain]

Very ImportantREALLY Useless People. ;)

Mick
With that little addition we have a new acronym which describes poli's to a tee, I'm sure Zed will approve:D
That aside, if you let Kopenberg up first, he may just put the state and feds up for a bit of money and have some pleasure in watching them trying to wriggle out.

Edit. Half asleep VIRUP does not spell virus, sorry people, even though I think they are.

[Felder]

Perhaps we could change it slightly to Very Important Really Useless Souls - or VIRUS. Now that is a shoe that fits!:D

Thanks everyone for your comments, suggestions and links to websites.

None of this would have been an issue or concern if I hadn't been pulled up for it last year. At the last AGM I asked the FCO at the time (who has now been replaced by Koenig) to address the meeting, and said in a loud enough voice for the rest of the meeting to hear him "I think you should ask the Member for Blue Mountains (Debus) to speak first".

Generally, I'm not the sort of person who gets hung-up on protocols. I give respect where respect is due, and generally recognise when someone has a senior role over mine. If it weren't for the comment last year, I wouldn't even be asking this question.

PS - Thanks arose62! But I might need a bigger one for this meeting.....

[ian]

Brendan

Does Koenig work for Council or the RFS?
If the former, he follows the Mayor, if the later he follows Koperburg

If you get any Federal funding Federal member goes first
If it's all State funding then it's Debus

Then Koperburg, unless Council kicks the can, when Koperburg would follow the Mayor

I'm surprised that you are getting such a galaxy of "stars" what's going on? Is someone in line for a gong ?

If so who will present the gong? Presumably Koperburg assisted by Debus, but check with Phil's office — his PA will know.


ian

[Felder]

Does Koenig work for Council or the RFS?

He is an officer with the RFS, so will be introduced after the Commish.



If it's all State funding then it's Debus


'tis all State funding



I'm surprised that you are getting such a galaxy of "stars" what's going on? Is someone in line for a gong ?
ian

Dunno about the gong? Maybe it's me?:rolleyes:
Nah Koperburg is a Blue Mountains resident and although he is a busy bloke he doesn't mind getting back down to the grass roots of the organisation he runs whenever he can. Personally, I really respect it. It would have to be a big change from going from strategic meetings with powerful people to going to a shambles run by a volunteer fire fighter who tries to sell woodworking machinery by day.......good on him.:) At least this way he will not lose touch with what is happening in individual Brigades, and the issues we face.

[Auld Bassoon]

Why should there be any set order depending on who does what for a job.

Just because somebody does a different job to somebody else doesn't put them any higher up a "pecking order"
That is why there are so many problems in the world today.

So the Federal MP may have a more important job than a State MP. (I said may)
Big deal, does this mean he is more important or that his job is.
He gets all the reward and recognition he deserves, it is called a pay packet.

This goes not only for the pollies but the firies, and anybody else for that matter.

People who think they are important need to get over themselves.
They are guests, they should be happy with that and talk when they are asked to.

Jack,

I'm not entirely sure that I agree with your points - other than that the vermin a federal and state level ought to be shown the level of respect that they deserve...

I think that the Commissioner performs a very responsible job, and performs it well (in Koperburg's case), and as such, is worthy of respect. So also do all of the firies, professional or volunteers at all ranks.

So, my 2c worth would be to have the Commissioner up first, with a quip from the MC as to who the firies report to, then the (wastes of space) who allocate funds, then the folks who actually do the job - they get the last word for once :)

[dazzler]

Put simply you are honouring the position, not the person in it.:)

[ian]

Brendon

do you have an agenda for your meeting?
what is the order of business?

Is Debus making a speech or just showing his face and shaking hands over tea and scones?
Ditto for your Federal member, Mayor, Councillors, Koperburg and Koenig

This will determine what happens.

For an AGM, the normal order of business would be

Welcome
Appologies
Annual Report from the President
Annual Report from the Secretary, Treasurer, Brigade Captain — shuffle this order as you see fit
Special business as per the Notice of Meeting
General Business, including any kind remarks that people might like to make. The speaking order (for kind remarks) would be:
Debus,
Federal member,
Mayor,
others,
let Koenig and or Koperburg have the final word (but check first if they want to say anything). Koperburg in particular may just be there for the tea and scones — by which I mean to see the troops, he may not feel the need to make any formal comments
If any of these people are to deliver a formal speech later in the proceedings, you wouldn't normally invite them to speak now.
Elect the Office Bearers for next year, (the new terms to commence at the conclusion of the meeting or at some later time as per you "rules")
Formal Address — have you requested any of your guests to make a formal speech? if not skip this bit
Close or adjorn the meeting for the tea and scones (or an ale or two)

[boban]

Having read this thread I immediately thought that you have a humourous way to commence your speech.

Be honest. Tell them you had no idea who was to go first and tell them where you went for advice and recite some of it that was given.

I'd much rather listen to a humourous opening than one from a guy so nervous he hopes he gets the order of the w@nkers out correctly.

Good luck

[echnidna]

Great suggestion Boban :)

[masoth]

Some good advice/ideas/suggestions/tongue-in-cheek/republicisms to choose from.
'Official' protocol is, I suggest, important if for no other reason than funding, and sooooooooooo many of 'those' persons think they are delivering money from their own pockets.
Regardless of ANY list I'd keep the Firies to last (and say so) because that's your mob - the last mentioned stays in the mind of the listeners longer.
Point out the Firies ARE the reason for the gathering.

[ian]

Brendon

so how did the meeting go?

ian

[Felder]

The meeting actually went quite well, and it would seem that my angst over whom has seniority over whom was un-neccessary.

Allow me to set the scene;
Date - 2nd of June, 2006

1600hrs - attempt to leave Sydney Working With Wood Show an hour early to allow plenty of time for the one and a quarter hour trip back to the Blue Mountains. Wish to avoid peak hour traffic and have enough preparation time to ensure things run smoothly.

1645 - Leave show. It's raining. It's peak hour. Traffic is shyte.

1845 - Arrive at Fire Station completely frazzled. My brother tells me that Koperburg's office rang him an hour ago to offer his apologies for our meeting. Also, Debus cannot make it.

2000 - Meeting starts. I have an agenda and the minutes and everything is prepared. Koenig is there, along with four other RFS officers. One Councillor in attendance. I introduce the visitors from my right to left, completely disregarding any semblance of their rank. Took a leaf out of Boban's book and said something along the lines of "Welcome to our visitors. There is probably a correct order in which to introduce them, but from my right to left, here is ............." No-one seemed put out by this, so I must have done OK.
Just as I'd introduced the last visitor, another Councillor turned up so she got introduced as well. And then five minutes later I introduced Bartlett as he also turned up late.
We went through the agenda with awards being given (I got one! And no - not just because I'm the president;)) and reports being made. Elections took place (I got another twelve month sentence) and when the votes were being counted by RFS Officers, Koenig offered to make his speech. This was followed by another RFS speech and then I invited Bartlett to speak, followed by the Councillors (the one that was there on time got to speak first!).
All in all, the meeting was a success. I was nervous as all hell beforehand but I'm not sure why - I'm usually not so bad at public speaking. Koenig said it was a well run meeting so that's good enough for me.

Of course the best bit was after the meeting. I do enjoy a good tea and scones session ( http://www.ubeaut.biz/beer.gif , http://www.ubeaut.biz/cheers.gif , http://www.ubeaut.biz/beersmiley.gif )

Thanks to all for your advice and suggestions. It was certainly beneficial!!:):) http://www.ubeaut.biz/icon_nworthy.gif <table style="border-collapse: collapse;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="806"> <tbody><tr><td align="left" height="60" width="180">
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