Victorian new Drink/Drug Driving laws.

[Sturdee]

Today the new harsher drink/drug driving laws take effect and this will be of interest to non Vic members who may visit our state.

In brief there is no longer any low range drink driving offence whereby first offenders can avoid loss of licence.

Any driver found at a breath testing station to have .050 or more BAC will loose their licence on the spot for 3 months, have to complete a compulsory drink driver behaviour change program and need to get an alcohol interlock installed in any vehicle they drive (once re-licensed) for at least six months. This is mandatory and in addition to what the Court may impose.

This applies to all drivers and also for Victorian drivers that get caught interstate.

Also of interest may be that of you exceed the speed limit by 25 k's there is an automatic one month licence cancellation. Easy to do if you pass emergency vehicles with red and blue flashing lights working, school zones and temporary road work speed limits that are all 40 k's in Victoria.

Peter.

[ian]

The Vic Government is that short of revenue?

[cava]

The Vic Government is that short of revenue?
Yes.

[China]

South Australia has had mandatory loss of licence for first offence DUI for years, school zones are 25k when children are present 24hrs, work zones are 25k and have been for at least 40 years
40k when passing emergency vehicles with lights flashing has been in force since 2006, welcome to the club

[Sturdee]

The Vic Government is that short of revenue?

No, but the government is determined to lower the road toll. They are removing level crossings, building new roads and getting the drink and drive culture changed.

If this does not lower the road toll they are looking further ahead to lowering the .050 to .020 legal BAC limit according to the Roads Minister.

Peter.

[Chris Parks]

They will eventually work out that there is a practical limit where punitive measures have no effect....or being politicians maybe they won't. It must be obvious even to the most unthinking person that it is impossible to get to zero so where is that lower limit? Maybe they have reached it already and the sad thing is that limit goes up every time there is an increase of drivers on the road. If I had my way the BA reading would be .02% in the whole of Australia but I am under no illusions that having a zero limit would stop drink driving or reduce fatalities if the lower limits have already been reached.

[Pat]

I thought that the states and Commonwealth were attempting to simplify the road rules and have them the same in every state.

Blessed politicians!:~

[TermiMonster]

Easy to do if you pass emergency vehicles with red and blue flashing lights working, school zones and temporary road work speed limits that are all 40 k's in Victoria.

Peter.
I understand why this was introduced, but it is a matter of time before someone is killed when cars travelling at 100 or 110 on a hwy suddenly come to a bunch of cars doing 40.
Hopefully not.
TM

[ian]

I applaud your government, but "wish them luck" if they think the ONLY action is to change the drink/drive culture.

From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3599447/ "Fatigue is an important and frequent symptom in obese patients."
and whilst I can't immediately find the correlation, moderate levels of fatigue are equivalent to relatively low BAC readings.
I can't immediately find the source of this statement "The researchers found that after 17 to 19 hours without sleep, subjects performed about the same as those with a 0.05% BAC"
17 to 19 hours without sleep would be fairly typical for young males -- got up at 7 and still going at 1 AM the next morning. Sounds "normal" ?

[Dibbers]

I still maintain that some school zones pose a higher risk of accidents than they reduce... If a school is on a main road with a normal speed limit greater than 60km/h, then there should be no school zone. Councils should be required to put adequate fencing between the footpath and the road, and a footbridge/tunnel built for pedestrian traffic.

This not only keeps kids away from the main roads, but it also means that drivers unfamiliar with the area aren't suprised by the sudden drop in speed from 70/80km/h to 40... not to mention it will help with the traffic that school zones create on these main roads... b-doubles having to come to a virtual standstill, then their slow crawl to get back up to speed.

One of my biggest gripes with roads (sydney roads in particular) is that you can have 3 changes in speed limits for a 2km stretch of road... creates a culture of looking at the speedo rather than the road if you ask me...

[Sturdee]

40k when passing emergency vehicles with lights flashing has been in force since 2006, welcome to the club

As we're planning a road trip to SA later this year I've been looking into that and as far as I'm aware it's 25 k as well.

Peter.

[Sturdee]

I thought that the states and Commonwealth were attempting to simplify the road rules and have them the same in every state.

Blessed politicians!:~


Sorry Pat but we will always have different Road laws for we have the famous "hook turns" :U

Peter.

[Sturdee]

I still maintain that some school zones pose a higher risk of accidents than they reduce...

I agree but in Vic most have the flashing speed signs to indicate when the school zone begins. Also on the one near us on a main road warning signs are ereceted ahead of the school zone.




One of my biggest gripes with roads (sydney roads in particular) is that you can have 3 changes in speed limits for a 2km stretch of road... creates a culture of looking at the speedo rather than the road if you ask me...

Most of these here are removed, you have either 60, 80 or 100 speed limits. There are still a few 70 and 90 k and they are slated for removal.

Peter.

[Sturdee]

I understand why this was introduced, but it is a matter of time before someone is killed when cars travelling at 100 or 110 on a hwy suddenly come to a bunch of cars doing 40.
Hopefully not.
TM

I understand this as well and agree with the logic behind it but when you look into the details it is disastrous. Did you know that when a police car with lights flashing is booking a driver on the other side of say a 4 lane road (not being a divided road) you must lower your speed to 40 k else they can book you as well.

Peter.

[Pat]

How about the "P" turn, Hoddle St?

[Bushmiller]

I am not sure to what extent these revisions in road rules are directly driven by statistics or by other agendas.

I do remember that an episode of "Mythbusters" identified that somebody talking on a mobile phone was in less control of their vehicle than a person with some degree of BAC (I can't recall what limit they used as although this was an Aussie inspired production, the events took place in America.)

On a slightly different tack, we had a discussion at work on this whole subject and somebody came up with the statistic that there may be more people under the influence of drugs on the road than alcohol. If, and I stress if, that were true I would find that far more alarming. I am also aware that people pulled over for a breath test are also likely to be drug tested. I suspect, but don't know, that the drug test tends to only take place if the police are suspicious of the vehicle occupants as testing is still quite expensive.

Regards
Paul

[BobL]

I understand this as well and agree with the logic behind it but when you look into the details it is disastrous. Did you know that when a police car with lights flashing is booking a driver on the other side of say a 4 lane road (not being a divided road) you must lower your speed to 40 k else they can book you as well.

Maybe its to reduce the impact speed of the rubber neckers ploughing into the back of the other vehicles?

[Kuffy]

Is passing flashing lights at a speed greater than 40km/h considered "speeding"? I was under the impression it was a different offence with a different penalty system.

[AlexS]

If a school is on a main road with a normal speed limit greater than 60km/h, then there should be no school zone. Councils should be required to put adequate fencing between the footpath and the road, and a footbridge/tunnel built for pedestrian traffic.

On Pennant Hills Rd. in Sydney there is a stretch with high schools on each side of the road, a fence on the median strip to prevent crossing and a footbridge to cross the road, but it still has a 40km/h limit.

[Bohdan]

Maybe its to reduce the impact speed of the rubber neckers ploughing into the back of the other vehicles?

No. It's to guarantee that a rubber necker will run into you. I prefer to travel at whatever speed the rest of the trafic is doing.

[Spyro]

Short sighted measures designed to create a temporary spike in someone's quarterly results, and that someone will have moved to a bigger and better role when the results ultimately stagnate and prove ineffective.

We have many bad drivers, we need to teach them how to drive properly, and that's bloody hard and takes a lot of time and money. Not good for quick spikes in quarterly results.
We have people on the road who not only never give the right of way but actually speed up when you indicate you want to merge, just to make sure you don't merge. That's an Australian phenomenon, I've never seen it anywhere else before. People who have no idea where their car starts and where it ends, and freak out when they don't have 5m space in every direction. Drivers who can't manoeuvre to save their lives and look like they've never used reverse before. Drivers who slow down almost to a halt on the freeway causing miles of bottlenecks because someone is changing a tyre on the service lane and they want to have a look (that's also pretty unique to Australia, and completely inexplicable). Drivers who think their car is suddenly on scates because it rained. People who buy way bigger cars than they can actually control.

They are everywhere, and they need to learn how to drive. You can punish people all you like, but they still will not know how to drive.



PS Sorry about the rant. I'm talking generally about their approach, not these specific measures.

[Pagie]

We should not slow down at schools. If they can't get across the road we don't want them to breed.

[Chris Parks]

NSW introduced the double demerits system years ago, the shock value lasted about two holiday weekends and everything returned to normal with no discernible decrease in "accidents" (no such thing they are all caused) that I know of.

[cava]

We should not slow down at schools. If they can't get across the road we don't want them to breed.
Whilst I realise that this was written tongue in cheek, SWMBO mirrors the same sentiments with school crossing guards.

At the core of her argument is that we are breeding the future generations to become dependant on someone else, and by definition not be accountable for their own actions.

[Spyro]

Whilst I realise that this was written tongue in cheek, SWMBO mirrors the same sentiments with school crossing guards.

At the core of her argument is that we are breeding the future generations to become dependant on someone else, and by definition not be accountable for their own actions.
It's not just accountability, it's outright dangerous
These kids will go on holidays to places like Asia, and they will go to a dangerous beach that doesn't say "don't jump", and they will jump.
Using brain -> not a bad thing

[BobL]

What a bunch of grumpy old men.
The same bunch of people complaining we should stick to "survival of the fittest" are usually the ones saying how slack and inactive kids of today and why aren't they like us. Well my take is that the ground rules have changed - dramatically- the traffic density is out of control and then we expect young kids to cross busy roads without any help? The net result is MORE kids being driven to school compounding the traffic density.
Shame on all of you.

RE: Rubber necker collisions
I agree it won't prevent rubbernecker collisions, but a vehicle at 60 kph has 2.25 x more KE than one at 40 kph, which would you rather be run into by?

[rwbuild]

Whilst I realise that this was written tongue in cheek, SWMBO mirrors the same sentiments with school crossing guards.

At the core of her argument is that we are breeding the future generations to become dependant on someone else, and by definition not be accountable for their own actions.

This may be true to a point but ultimately, children or anyone is the result of 1) the gene's of the parents 2) the parents input into their children in the formative years 3) children to a large extent mirror the actions of their parents and their peers. I see this in the attitude of drivers in particular.
In regard to signage, there is a plethora of warning signs, etc 99% of the time. There is no substitute for keeping an eye on the road and the immediate environs including the use of all your mirrors.
Road rules and the ever changing/addition of new ones is the responsibility of the authorities, my view is it should be mandatory for a 1 month saturation of all forms of media to educate and make aware of any such changes/additions.
With regard to alcohol and drugs, there is not a person alive in Australia that is not aware of the law and driving relating to these and the simple answer is ZERO for both, no excuses, no free passes, if you injure anyone as a result of these, you pay 100% cost to injured party and any emergency services costs (yes I know there are those who will never be able to pay but take a percentage out of what ever income /support they have until it is paid off). As Ray Hadley says "you can't put brains in statues" also applies to a lot of our politicians as well.
I'm sure plenty will disagree with me and yes, I have been guilty of some of these in the past (not drugs) but am a lot wiser and careful now.

[Kuffy]

Whilst I realise that this was written tongue in cheek, SWMBO mirrors the same sentiments with school crossing guards.

At the core of her argument is that we are breeding the future generations to become dependant on someone else, and by definition not be accountable for their own actions.

No no, the crossing guards are AWESOME! They are the best best thing since sliced bread. Without them, the school kids cross the roads in dribs and drabs effectively stopping traffic completely. But the awesome crossing guards tell those annoying little kids to stand there and shuddup and wait a moment until there is a decent group ready to cross all at once. It's efficient.

[woodPixel]

I can't wait for Auto-cars to become a reality.

Not because I drink, but 98% of the time I just want to go to a place, not own and drive a car to get there.

Imagine a totally automated fleet of electric cars! No more carparks! Less traffic! No more god damned politicians picking our pockets for trivial transgressions!

[Dibbers]

What a bunch of grumpy old men.
The same bunch of people complaining we should stick to "survival of the fittest" are usually the ones saying how slack and inactive kids of today and why aren't they like us. Well my take is that the ground rules have changed - dramatically- the traffic density is out of control and then we expect young kids to cross busy roads without any help? The net result is MORE kids being driven to school compounding the traffic density.
Shame on all of you.

For the record, i'm not against school zones, i'm against them being in place where there are measures to keep pedestrians off busy, high speed arterial roads. I will accept an arguement that by high school, you probably shouldn't need them though...

To rwbuild's and others comments around driving under the influence of drugs, while i agree wholeheartedly, i disagree with the current method of policing. The MDT's test for traces of illicit drugs in your system, if any are found, you get done. The problem though is that it doesn't determine whether you're under the influence, just that you have trace amounts. Something like marijuana takes a couple of weeks to leave your system, while the effects last a couple of hours... So people are being charged with DUI when really, they should be charged with recreational drug use. I believe this is also distorting the figures of Drug Driving.

I don't take drugs. Other than smoking a joint when i was 20, I've never touched them. I'm just saying that there are a lot of people getting charged with DUI when they arent... and if we go down the path of medicinal marijuana, this needs to be addressed.

[Handyjack]

It should be noted that certain classes of vehicles or licence require a BAC of 0.00%.
Drivers of heavy vehicles, and public transport (rail) are required to have 0.00%. In some states learners and probationary drivers also need to have 0.00%

[ian]

RE: Rubber necker collisions
I agree it won't prevent rubbernecker collisions, but a vehicle at 60 kph has 2.25 x more KE than one at 40 kph, which would you rather be run into by?
If you have ever worked on a road with traffic doing 100 km/h (or even 70) in the adjacent lane you will appreciate the value of 40 km/h when workers (or police) are present.

I can tell you from experience that it's not a lot of fun and rubber neckers notwithstanding it's bloody dangerous.
One of my work colleagues had his arm broken when hit by a vehicle passing through a work site.

[artme]

We have had roadworks going on near wo schools on the edge of Hervey Bay. The worst part of this
is th poor placement of signage, especially temporary signage. Some signs actually have wide tape
across their middle! others are at all sorts of angles. Add to this the flashing lights of work vehicles
outside the fenced off road ares and the mind has trouble coping,

Just a little more care in planning and placements would make a difference tthose driving here.

[Wood'nMetal]

creates a culture of looking at the speedo rather than the road if you ask me...

I've never understood this kind of statement. When driving I keep my eyes on the road, and can flick my eyesight down to the speedo and back again in less than a second. Do other people have to move their whole head to see the speedo? Or does it take them several seconds to focus on it?

[Chris Parks]

It is reckoned by professional instructors that you should check the instruments, then the nearside mirror, offside mirror and then internal mirror about every 30 seconds in heavy traffic. All this is done in a few seconds and becomes automatic after a while.

[ian]

I've never understood this kind of statement. When driving I keep my eyes on the road, and can flick my eyesight down to the speedo and back again in less than a second. Do other people have to move their whole head to see the speedo? Or does it take them several seconds to focus on it?
I think the real issue is that some people can't judge their speed by how fast the scenary is passing by.
These people need to continually check their "instruments" to judge their speed.

[Bushmiller]

I think the real issue is that some people can't judge their speed by how fast the scenary is passing by.
These people need to continually check their "instruments" to judge their speed.

Umm... Like one paddock/sec. :-)

Regards
Paul

[BobL]

It is reckoned by professional instructors that you should check the instruments, then the nearside mirror, offside mirror and then internal mirror about every 30 seconds in heavy traffic. All this is done in a few seconds and becomes automatic after a while.

That's how we were taught at the driving instructors course and it comes in really handy when riding a motor bike where its best to behave like no one can see you

[Spyro]

It is reckoned by professional instructors that you should check the instruments, then the nearside mirror, offside mirror and then internal mirror about every 30 seconds in heavy traffic. All this is done in a few seconds and becomes automatic after a while.
Wow, these guys are dangerous. For what it's worth that's not what I was taught, and I never did it, and I've driven about 1 million kms in 4 different countries and never been in or caused an accident on the road.
When you take your eyes off the road in front of you you are at your most vulnerable and your most dangerous, and you should only do it for serious reasons such as when you're trying to change lanes, and not for the purpose of some BS low speed limit. Your safety is way more important than a fine because you did 106 in 100 zone or something silly like that. If you are breaking the speed limit by a lot and you have no clue because you can't sense it without looking down, you shouldn't be driving in my opinion.

[smidsy]

What I think is a big flaw in the system is that speeding fines are based on the number of k's over, I think it should be percentage based.
I get caught doing 120/110 on a two lane highway, 10k's over, yes it's illegal but there's not a lot of danger unless other factors such as road works, weather or traffic volume become an issue.
I get caught doing 50/40 in a school zone, it's the same penalty but much more dangerous, especially if it's at pick up or drop off time.

I also think fines need to be based on a percentage of your income, to be fair.
I got caught in Townsville back in 12, $250 and 3 points but I was working, on good money, the fine was a minor annoyance - I was more concerned about the points.
Fast forward eight months later, and I get slapped $120 for not wearing a push bike helmet. Work had finished, I was on centrelink with about $230 a fortnight left over after rent and that $120 really hurt.

[cava]

Perhaps what we should consider, is what Germany used to do (I am not sure if they still do it) but they would donate all fines to charity OUTSIDE of their country on a rotational monthly basis ie one month it would be Oxfam next Red Cross etc.

They did this to take away any incentive to fine motorists to balance budgets etc.

[BobL]

What I think is a big flaw in the system is that speeding fines are based on the number of k's over, I think it should be percentage based.
I get caught doing 120/110 on a two lane highway, 10k's over, yes it's illegal but there's not a lot of danger unless other factors such as road works, weather or traffic volume become an issue.
Safe driving at 110/120 is an illusion - if something goes pear shaped at 120 or 110 and when it goes pear shaped it happens well before you have time to react and theres a much higher risk of killing your self and others than at 40/50.

[Chris Parks]

Safe driving at 110/120 is an illusion - if something goes pear shaped at 120 or 110 and when it goes pear shaped it happens well before you have time to react and theres a much higher risk of killing your self and others than at 40/50.

It might well be an illusion for you but for a trained driver can be well withing his/her capabilities.

[Glider]

I've often wondered if the accident rate for P plate drivers has reduced since the 120 hrs. rule was introduced.

On another tack, do the heavily sign posted fixed speed cameras in NSW only trap idiots?

mick

[Chris Parks]

I've often wondered if the accident rate for P plate drivers has reduced since the 120 hrs. rule was introduced.

On another tack, do the heavily sign posted fixed speed cameras in NSW only trap idiots?

mick

The average speed cameras? They only track trucks in NSW. The single point speed cameras? everyone knows where they are unless they are a stranger to the area and some navigation systems warn where they are. I am surprised they catch many at all.

[Spyro]

Getting out of bed is also an illusion of safety, anything can happen, but at some point you have to determine a level of acceptable risk otherwise we will all drive at 0km/hour.

[ian]

The average speed cameras? They only track trucks in NSW. for now

The single point speed cameras? everyone knows where they are unless they are a stranger to the area and some navigation systems warn where they are. I am surprised they catch many at all.
they catch the inattentive ...

but quite a few are located to encourage the many to drive slower through an area.
It's a behavioral thing. Put a speed camera in a 100 km/h zone, and most drivers will slow to 90 / 95

[Chris Parks]

for now

they catch the inattentive ...

but quite a few are located to encourage the many to drive slower through an area.
It's a behavioral thing. Put a speed camera in a 100 km/h zone, and most drivers will slow to 90 / 95

Not likely to change until a Labour Govt is voted in as the Nats have it as one of their policies to leave them for trucks only. Clearly the intent is to slow drivers down in the area, whether the camera works or not or there is one in the box is irrelevant.

[ian]

I've often wondered if the accident rate for P plate drivers has reduced since the 120 hrs. rule was introduced.
The word in the "corridors of knowledge" is that the 120 hours requirement has resulted in a substantial reduction in the crash rate for red P plate drivers.

[Spyro]

When I first came to AU 15 years ago I looked into getting a Victorian drivers license. I called Vicroads, they asked which country I'm coming from and as soon as I said Greece they said all they want is $50 and a photo. I did that and got a VIC license in 5 minutes, that was it. They didn't even give me a pamphlet or anything.

Immediately after I was dangerous as a heart attack on the road. There are serious differences in road rules, for example where I came from the driver entering a roundabout has the right of way and the cars in the roundabout are supposed to yield. I had no idea it's the opposite here. Also I'd never seen a tram before, I didn't know what a hook turn is, and although I don't remember what the rule is officially, the common practice in Greece is that in most instances cars have the right of way over pedestrians and because of this generally pedestrians are much more aware of their surroundings when crossing, here they just look down and cross. And many other things.

Somehow I came out of it alive and without killing anybody.

[Handyjack]

If a teenager gets a learners permit just after their 16th birthday they would need about 1 hour of driving a week to total 120 hours by the time they are 18 and eligible to have a practical driving test.

Yes you can get driving experience and never encounter a tram, railway crossing, hook turn, P turn, peak hour snail moving traffic or take a vehicle off a sealed road before getting a licence, but then it depends where in the state you reside. It is also possible to get lots of experience with trams and railway crossings but never go on a freeway, toll way, country or unsealed road. Depends on your supervisor.

Both my children have a licence. One had a learners permit for two years, the other twelve months and I tried to give them a range of experiences.