Current world events, can we have an open discussion?

[Kiwi75]

I fell down the conspiracy rabbit hole a few years ago, learnt a lot of lessons about disinformation on line etc etc and have now found myself walking the middle road. I have many opinions many of you would consider "Drivel" but I'd like to start an honest, open minded discussion about Syria, Russia, NATO, the deep state, NWO, etc etc. Not interested in flat earth, reptilians or hollow earth. I feel WW3 is closer than it's ever been. I'm talking about what I personally consider actual conspiracies that are tearing our world apart, and not that disinfo designed to confuse. Is the MSM telling us the truth? Did Assad really gas his people just when he was winning the war and Trump said he was pulling US troops out? Administration, am I allowed? Members are you interested in a discussion where we can discuss this stuff openly without fear of being attacked for having a different opinion? Thanks.

[Dareen]

All that stuff is too depressing for me. Rather hide my head behind some good positive stuff, when you can find it. Still, should let some vent a bit.
Cheers, Fred

[Greg Ward]

Years ago Mountbatten (I think) when told that Hitler was launching an attack somewhere in Europe, nodded and said thank you, and went back to sleep.
His conclusion when asked, was that there was no point in worrying about something I can do nothing about.
If you are worried about things out of your control, start a garden and worry about grubs and water and weeds and things you can control, or start a wood project or a new job.
Most of us have personal worries that drive us to restlessness at night, that in the light of day are laughed off.
The big picture>>>>>My understanding is that world has never had fewer wars or less people suffering (percentage wise)than at the present.
Greg

[Bushmiller]

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Edmund Burke the Irish philosopher is commonly attributed to have said this during the 18th century and is one of the most quoted phrases ever. It is one I frequently use because is seems appropriate so often.

I agree with Greg that we all have our own troubles and indeed become embroiled with other people's troubles, but I don't think we should ignore the bigger picture completely. I absolutely agree that frequently we can do nothing to change things. That does not necessarily mean we should stop trying. Nor should we give up. It is true to say that you can't fight for every cause. I personally don't have that amount of energy, but you can select a few worthy battles and you can ask a few questions. If everybody did this there would be less chance of evil slipping through the net.

We have never been able to access global information better than today, but by the same token neither has there been the ability to disseminate fallacious information more easily than today. This thread conducted in a civilised and considerate manner could highlight many issues: Just call it awareness. No need to act on every issue.

I am as guilty as the next person of doing the ostrich thingy, but I would like to think I don't do it every time.

Regards
Paul

[NCArcher]

Does this really need to be discussed on a woodworking forum. I come here to get away from that . The internet is really big. Plenty of other places on the internet that will be all too happy to listen to your conspiracy theories.

[Sturdee]

Does this really need to be discussed on a woodworking forum. I come here to get away from that . The internet is really big. Plenty of other places on the internet that will be all too happy to listen to your conspiracy theories.

I agree.

Peter.

[Chris Parks]

Removing this thread would be a really good idea, it should just disappear.

[bueller]

Yep agreed with the above, I come here for woodworking discussion not the depressing state of the world. I can get that anywhere.

[Bushmiller]

I have to confess that I am a little mystified. Let me explain it this way. I contribute to the Forums on a reasonably frequent basis, but certainly do not participate in every category. There are many aspects in which I have only a passing interest and some in which I have none. However I respect the right of others to enjoy those subjects. I also enjoy the discussion on a variety of subjects by people with whom I feel some degree of connection because of our woodworking. I am particularly conscious of not becoming a boring old woodworker who can talk on nothing else.

Despite my best efforts it is looking highly unlikely that I will be unable to change the "old" aspect, although for the moment I languish in denial, but I can maintain a broad degree of interest. I acknowledge that I could follow other avenues on the internet, but I tend not to do this. In fact I prefer not to do that. Although I have membership of other Forums I do not participate in them. Just returning to the subject, this section is entitled "Nothing At All To Do With Woodwork." I have always meant to count the number of categories on the Forum and the myriad of sub forums but I have never got around to it. There are a lot and most of them are to do with woodwork in some form or other.

There are also many sections that are not to do with woodwork. Look at the photographic forum. We would have been denied the privilege of all Repliconics pix if we had said there are photographic forums elsewhere. If you doubt the scope of this Forum I would recommend you have a look at the "Not woodwork - My other loves" section and see the explanation of "This section is for those who also have hobbies and interests outside of the woodworking realm."

The "Nothing to do with Woodwork" section is a longtime arena and in the past has been host to many interesting and sometimes challenging topics. If I ever had a criticism of the Forums it was to do with censorship, but I accept that some rules have to be in place otherwise it degenerates into the melee that can been seen in other forums. Why then would we introduce censorship ourselves? I have posted threads in the past which had had zero interest. So be it. It was not compulsory to comment and neither should it be. Surely any thread stands on it's merit. Unless the thread is overtly offensive (in which case the moderators will step in) or defamatory, let threads run. It is not compulsory to participate. You do not have to subscribe to a thread and you do not have to even look at it.

I would generally say that the original subject in question from the OP is possibly too broad and perhaps topics could be introduced on an ad hoc basis. However I am really wary of censorship.

Regards
Paul

This section is for those who also have hobbies and interests outside of the woodworking realm.

[Simplicity]

"Nothing at all to do with woodworking"
Ummmmmm I get it,
Would you rather see a thread on my toe nail clippings.


I would say let this thread run here because this section is excalty the place for it.

Like others here I don't just live for woodworking.
[emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849][emoji849]

Cheers Matt

[Redbog]

Fellas, please!
"the first casualty of war is truth" is a universally acknowledged truism. If some members want to canvass or seek input about the state of the world, a dedicated woodwork forum is arguably not the place to do it. However, "Anything else but woodworking" seems a bloody broad church to me.
Why not?
I don't HAVE to click on the thread.

Personally, I'd rather find out how Fence Furniture got on, helping a member that needs a hand with his shed. But, each to his own.
Totally agree with Bushmiller.
Well done Brett, BTW.
Cheers, Redbog

[cava]

Does this really need to be discussed on a woodworking forum. I come here to get away from that . The internet is really big. Plenty of other places on the internet that will be all too happy to listen to your conspiracy theories.
Let me see, this thread is posted in the 'Nothing At All To Do With Woodwork' forum.

It appears that the solution is mind numbingly simple - if as a topic it is likely to offend, don't read it!

Brutal though it may sound, we all have a will and presumably intellect to avoid topics that are not of interest or offensive.

[China]

As said above if you don't like it don't read it

[woodPixel]

Kiwi77, look no further than bonds, derivatives and credit default swaps (car, student loans, credit cards, soon to be Aussie mortgages)

This generated war is a simple magicians trick to distract the masses from the fact the USA, Europe and most "advanced" economies are hopelessly economically bankrupt.

Trillions and Trillions and.... Trillions.

The dispersing cloud won't be radioactive dust... It will be radioactive debt.

[cava]

Plenty of other places on the internet that will be all too happy to listen to your conspiracy theories.

The strange thing is that, in my experience with few exceptions, a lot of conspiracy theories generally turn out to be true.



I have many opinions many of you would consider "Drivel" but I'd like to start an honest, open minded discussion about Syria, Russia, NATO, the deep state, NWO, etc etc.

Unfashionable though it may sound, and it will invariably upset some, if you want to find out what is going to happen, it is all written in the Bible.

The problem with stating this, which had previously been pointed out by a forum member on another thread, is that any involvement or reference to the Bible is verbotten on this forum. This rule may have to be relaxed on this thread if a balanced discussion is to proceed.

[q9]

MSM...Doom and gloom...bible says...key words that hint this is not for me.

But before I go, I'll counter the doom and gloom with a bit of reality: https://www.gapminder.org/

The world as a whole is getting better, cleaner, stabler, healthier and wealthier.

About 6 years ago I weaned myself off News and Current Affairs...just keep it to the minimum. Did wonders to my outlook and happiness. All the doom and gloom on the TV actually makes no discernible difference to my day to day life, so why fill my head with it?

Enjoy your thread. :)

[Twisted Tenon]

I don’t know about conspiracy theories Kiwi75, I think the best way to understand what is going on in the Mid East is to read European history from pre WW1 till present. And not the type of stuff you’ll see on the history Chanel.
TT

[Twisted Tenon]

MSM...Doom and gloom...bible says...key words that hint this is not for me.

But before I go, I'll counter the doom and gloom with a bit of reality: https://www.gapminder.org/

The world as a whole is getting better, cleaner, stabler, healthier and wealthier.

About 6 years ago I weaned myself off News and Current Affairs...just keep it to the minimum. Did wonders to my outlook and happiness. All the doom and gloom on the TV actually makes no discernible difference to my day to day life, so why fill my head with it?

Enjoy your thread. :)



Benji just went in for his second try and Manly is losing. Best Sunday arvo in ages !!! :D

TT

[AlexS]

TT, it seems like we barrack for the same team - whoever's playing Manly!

[Twisted Tenon]

TT, it seems like we barrack for the same team - whoever's playing Manly!

Its a blood sport :clap2:
TT

[elanjacobs]

Unfashionable though it may sound, and it will invariably upset some, if you want to find out what is going to happen, it is all written in the Bible.

Ah, but which one? :wink:

[FenceFurniture]

Ah, but which one? :wink:
...any involvement or reference to the Bible is verbotten on this forum.
This rule may have to be relaxed on this thread if a balanced discussion is to proceed.Well I think there is a pretty simple and fundamental reason for that George. Not all members who have a faith are Christians, and not all members have a faith. There is the Muslim community, followers of the Old Testament, New Testament (which is what I presume Elan is referring to - old/new), and all the other Eastern religions which will have members on here. At least some of those religions claim to be the only "proper" or true religion and that is when all the angst starts. Just for a start amongst the Christian community there are any amount of different interpretations, depending on what the point of view is being pushed or which way the interpreter would like to shape things to suit their own agenda (and I'm thinking of religious cults here). There are those who interpret texts to be literal, and those who say it's metaphoric.

It is for the same reason that political discussions are not tolerated on here. The Left claim to be right, and The Right claim to be the only ones left, and there will never be a resolution on that, so why discuss it at all? I am yet to see any political discussion finish up with one proponent saying "You're Left and you're right, and from now on my point of view will also be Left, right?".

Never going to happen either with politics or religion.

Who is correct? All and none.

(for me an exception to this would be discussions about Trump - it's beyond politics - it's about being a decent, balanced human being or not)

[woodPixel]

...discussions about Trump - it's beyond politics - it's about being a decent, balanced human being or not

I think we can easily achieve consensus on this point :p

[Sturdee]

I think we can easily achieve consensus on this point :p

Not even on that as I think that Trump is doing what he promised the voters what he would do if elected. The world needs someone like that instead of his wishy washy predecessor.

Peter.

[artme]

For those of you familiar with Dr. Strangelove : For the first time in my life I feel genuinely frightened by world events and
that must be the reason why I have frequent flashes of Slim Pickens riding the bomb to oblivion.

[Greg Ward]

Leadership
Leaders always almost have to be if not psychopaths, at least sociopaths as the have to make BIG decisions without emotions affecting their decisions and they also have to have the salesman's capacity to sell their message.

On the push for more female participation in leadership, one of the reasons I dislike women writers is that I find them wandering into emotional side paths and I conclude that propensity is perhaps why women in leadership roles also have problems. Margret Thatcher perhaps the exception.

One of Trumps difficulties is perhaps that he is too emotional, hopefully he surrounds himself with a lot of calm sociopaths.
He may turn out to be more memorable (OK already there) and even successful than half a dozen of his predecessors.

Regarding belief.....Some may be cynical of religion and perhaps I am one, but I can be touched by the sincerity and the love and kindness those of faith can exhibit.
But I struggle to have any such feelings about the stupid believers in conspiracy theories, no matter their sincerity.

Greg

[cava]

Ah, but which one? :wink:
Very true, there are many. :D

[cava]

Well I think there is a pretty simple and fundamental reason for that George. Not all members who have a faith are Christians, and not all members have a faith. There is the Muslim community, followers of the Old Testament, New Testament (which is what I presume Elan is referring to - old/new), and all the other Eastern religions which will have members on here. At least some of those religions claim to be the only "proper" or true religion and that is when all the angst starts. Just for a start amongst the Christian community there are any amount of different interpretations, depending on what the point of view is being pushed or which way the interpreter would like to shape things to suit their own agenda (and I'm thinking of religious cults here). There are those who interpret texts to be literal, and those who say it's metaphoric.

It is for the same reason that political discussions are not tolerated on here. The Left claim to be right, and The Right claim to be the only ones left, and there will never be a resolution on that, so why discuss it at all? I am yet to see any political discussion finish up with one proponent saying "You're Left and you're right, and from now on my point of view will also be Left, right?".

Never going to happen either with politics or religion.

Who is correct? All and none.
All true Brett, but and it is a big but, I would like to think that the depth of intellectual acumen on this forum is capable of rationale considered debate on these topics.

That stated, in my life experience I have observed that most religious disagreements tend to be with atheists and not Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews etc - this I find very interesting.

On a political level, I also find the same with the Left being overly passionate against anyone who questions their viewpoint but not so much the reverse.

All that stated and getting back to the main thrust of the thread I can see in the not too distant future a coming depression bigger than the 1930's with soup kitchens in most towns - this I believe will happen in my lifetime.

The financial economies of most countries will collapse.

Based on historical precedent the order of events is typically Currency wars, Trade wars and then real wars. You work out where we are in the cycle...

[Twisted Tenon]

On the push for more female participation in leadership, one of the reasons I dislike women writers is that I find them wandering into emotional side paths and I conclude that propensity is perhaps why women in leadership roles also have problems. Margret Thatcher perhaps the exception.


Angela Merkel should get a guernsey. So should Golda Meir and maybe Indira Gandhi.

TT

[doug3030]

Angela Merkel should get a guernsey. So should Golda Meir and maybe Indira Gandhi.

Don't forget my ex-mother-in-law

[FenceFurniture]

Don't forget my ex-mother-in-lawJust the one? I have a collection.

[doug3030]

Just the one? I have a collection.

I am a fast learner. :2tsup:

[FenceFurniture]

I would like to think that the depth of intellectual acumen on this forum is capable of rationale considered debate on these topics.I certainly think that is possible - look at the discussion we had on Sandy Hook about gun control 4-5 years ago. It was very civil between the two sides, and that is one of the hottest topics in town.

[elanjacobs]

That stated, in my life experience I have observed that most religious disagreements tend to be with atheists and not Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews etc - this I find very interesting.
I think that's because religious people are inherently comfortable with belief in an unknown/higher force/power that's beyond their ability to fully understand. There is something in common at the most basic level, even if everything beyond that differs vastly.

By its very definition, atheism rejects the concept of God and is, therefore, fundamentally at odds with religion as a whole.

[doug3030]

A bit like the agnostic dyslexic insomniac who stayed awake at night wondering if there really was a dog :rolleyes:

[swk]

Leadership
Leaders always almost have to be if not psychopaths, at least sociopaths as the have to make BIG decisions without emotions affecting their decisions and they also have to have the salesman's capacity to sell their message.


"He paused, and for a moment assumed again his air of a schoolmaster questioning a promising pupil: ‘How does one man assert his power over another, Winston?’
Winston thought. ‘By making him suffer,’ he said.
‘Exactly. By making him suffer. Obedience is not enough.
Unless he is suffering, how can you be sure that he is obeying your will and not his own?"

I'll just leave that quote from a certain book here. People can ponder it if they like.




From the first post in this thread:


Did Assad really gas his people just when he was winning the war and Trump said he was pulling US troops out?
Why? Why would he do this? No conspiracy required. He does it because he can.

Regards
SWK

[truckjohn]

I would suggest that if we do want to allow (semi) civil political discussions in an "off topic" sort of forum - that we create one that is "Private"... No search engine results, password access, must be a "known" participating member in good standing to gain access, etc....

Remember that this forum is read worldwide. The freedoms we experience here with regards to Free Speech and Free Thought are not experienced all over the place.... And both you and the forum owners can be prosecuted in those places for simply hosting ideas that the ruling party does not agree with... I am not talking about North Korea here - this is going on in places like Sweden and The UK of all places.....

And beyond that - the owners of this forum do not want to be publically scandalized for hosting ideas.. And I have considerable sympathy for that... Because there is no shame with regards to what people will do when they go off on a bent to destroy opposition...

[cava]

From the first post in this thread:


Why? Why would he do this? No conspiracy required. He does it because he can.

Regards
SWK

On the surface of it, and contrary to what the media publishes, I am not totally convinced that Assad actually gassed his people.

The reasoning is simple:

1. The alleged gassing was against supporters of Assad and not his enemies.
2. Assad was actually winning the war against the insurgents and people were returning to Syria from other countries.
3. The USA was alleged pulling out of Syria as stability was being achieved, and any change to this stability would be reason enough to reverse this position ie Pax Americanus.

[Twisted Tenon]

On the surface of it, and contrary to what the media publishes, I am not totally convinced that Assad actually gassed his people.

The reasoning is simple:

1. The alleged gassing was against supporters of Assad and not his enemies.
2. Assad was actually winning the war against the insurgents and people were returning to Syria from other countries.
3. The USA was alleged pulling out of Syria as stability was being achieved, and any change to this stability would be reason enough to reverse this position ie Pax Americanus.




As I understand it Cava, the city in question was rebel held. Assad is totally indifferent to the sufferings of his own people. He is holding on to power by what ever it takes.

TT

[Greg Ward]

Gas
The reason he used gas is that it creates fear and is insidious.
It penetrates into cellars and bomb shelters which cannot be breached by bombs and thus encourages combatants to quit that area, especially if their families are affected.
Greg

[cava]

As I understand it Cava, the city in question was rebel held. Assad is totally indifferent to the sufferings of his own people. He is holding on to power by what ever it takes.

TT
Good point, I stand corrected.

[cava]

This may give an alternate viewpoint.

https://shadowproof.com/2018/04/09/media-know-certain-chemical-attack-douma-committed-syrian-government/

Is it fake news or not? Time will tell.

[artme]

This may give an alternate viewpoint.

https://shadowproof.com/2018/04/09/media-know-certain-chemical-attack-douma-committed-syrian-government/

Is it fake news or not? Time will tell.

Yes Cava. We should all read more widely and deeply on this conflict, its precursors and the implications of a "win"for either side.

[woodPixel]

Qui Bono?

It all makes no sense.

To finish SWKs comment above, the war with Eastasia seems more like a prophecy that a fictional warning.... the whole bloody book seems to be an instruction manual!

Seems like we proles need to adhere to the Newspeak of the Inner party.

[Twisted Tenon]

This may give an alternate viewpoint.

https://shadowproof.com/2018/04/09/media-know-certain-chemical-attack-douma-committed-syrian-government/

Is it fake news or not? Time will tell.



Thanks for the link Cava, I have book marked it. It goes to my point that there is a long game being played here and I guess it is about the oil.
Before WW1 the Ottoman empire was on its last legs and there was no Iran, Iraq etc unti post WW1 the Poms & French drew some arbitrary lines on a map and imposed local chiefs as the kings.
They lost control and its been a dogs breakfast since. But that is why the Yanks commenced Desert Storm, to secure their own oil.

TT

[Bushmiller]

It is very difficult not to be cynical about war: Not only today, but virtually for ever. In recent times I have tried to look past the initial events playing out on available media and asked myself "what is the agenda here?" In simple speak, what is in it for the various parties involved.

It always was about power and control. Today it is fought as much in the economic arena as on the battle field. I would ask how many dictators have been deposed in counties when there is no economic gain to be had. When we look at the middle east there was clearly that of the economic resource oil. I am sure there have been many other wars which we hardly hear about that range in scale from skirmishes to genocide. I think the one we all love to quote is Rwanda with the conflict between the Tutsi and the Hutus. More than 800,000 people killed. Where were the altruistic western nations at that time? Oh, hold on....there's no oil. Sorry to have raised such a pointless issue.

Today it is about economics and strategy. If western countries had not intervened in the affairs of these nations, they would still be fighting among themselves.

Regards
Paul

[truckjohn]

It's truly hard to know what is really the "truth" because there is so much money in the game making sure you can't decipher what happened....

At this point - the simple basic facts of "did something happen" are even still up in the air... Much less the commentary, spin, and propaganda...

I mean seriously - it's like 17 different "movies" going on and they are all completely different...

Just look at what the various sides are reporting:
Russia - there is no evidence of an actual gas attack
USA - Gas attack by Assad or sponsored by Russia...
Syria and Lebanese media - Saudi Arabia was behind this
Saudi Arabia and quite a few other middle eastern media outlets - Israel was behind this
Some US alternative media - probably rebels did this to "themselves" like they did last time to bring the world back into war against Assad.

Etc....

The hard thing is... Based on so many sets of pictures coming out showing proof of completely fabricated incidents - it seems like the first step is simply confirming that something did actually happen... The crazy thing is that the only ones that seem to have taken this step (publically) are the Russians - and the news from yesterday indicates that they are making a big public spectacle that they didn't find anything..

[truckjohn]

So the news reports dribbling in today are indicating that there were some people in the town who suffered from hypoxia caused by bombs burning up oxygen.... Not chlorine, sarin, or any other chemical/biological agents...

So yes - people were suffocating.. That's what happens when you are hiding in basements or tunnels underground and conventional bombs go off which literally burn up the oxygen in the air....

And the accusations of "Chemical attacks" were being made by the rebels fighting the government.... And the rebel's stories were being accepted as fact without checking or thinking that they do in fact have a dog in the fight...

but once again... Is this Truth or is it propaganda? This would be a pretty big intelligence failure if the USA shot a bunch of missiles into Assad's camp and levyed new sanctions against the Russians over false info that could have been corroborated by a few of our own intelligence fellows on the ground... Who would profit from that?

[FenceFurniture]

This would be a pretty big intelligence failure if the USA shot a bunch of missiles into Assad's camp and levyed new sanctions against the Russians over false info that could have been corroborated by a few of our own intelligence fellows on the ground... Who would profit from that?Well it's happened before.

[Twisted Tenon]

So the news reports dribbling in today are indicating that there were some people in the town who suffered from hypoxia caused by bombs burning up oxygen.... Not chlorine, sarin, or any other chemical/biological agents...

So yes - people were suffocating.. That's what happens when you are hiding in basements or tunnels underground and conventional bombs go off which literally burn up the oxygen in the air....

And the accusations of "Chemical attacks" were being made by the rebels fighting the government.... And the rebel's stories were being accepted as fact without checking or thinking that they do in fact have a dog in the fight...

but once again... Is this Truth or is it propaganda? This would be a pretty big intelligence failure if the USA shot a bunch of missiles into Assad's camp and levyed new sanctions against the Russians over false info that could have been corroborated by a few of our own intelligence fellows on the ground... Who would profit from that?


And there you have the great cycle of propaganda truckjohn. Australia, England, the US and a host of other tagalongs attacked Iraq on the basis of a lie. I still cringe when I hear Lord Downer maintain the lie that there were WMD's in Iraq based on the intel at the time.

TT

[swk]

...
Before WW1 the Ottoman empire was on its last legs and there was no Iran, Iraq etc unti post WW1 the Poms & French drew some arbitrary lines on a map and imposed local chiefs as the kings.


Nope, gotta correct that. We hear and read a lot of stuff about the middle east which colors our impressions, often as part of the justification to allow us to avoid thinking too much about what our actual business is there. (You know, they've always been fighting like this, so us being there isn't really causing any problems, cos they are just like that).
Anyway, neither Iran or Iraq are countries created recently or by the west...

Persia has a history that goes back 2000+ years, much like Greece has had. The name Iran has been used interchangeably with Persia for about 1800 years. Iran was never part of the Ottoman empire. Iran had a number of clear dynasties (much like most of the long lived European countries).
Iraq has a much longer history, being originally Uruk in Sumer 6ish thousand years ago, and has been called Iraq by the Arabs for around 1500 years. Iraq _was_ subsumed into the Ottoman (Turkish) empire for about 400* years, but to assume it didnt exist as a country/place is the same as saying Britain didnt exist because the French (! in 1066) had control of it for a while.
*In fact Iran and the Ottomans used to fight over who controlled Iraq from about 1500 to 1650 CE and the Iraqis had their own rulers, the Mamlukes, for a while too.

The Sykes Picot (Hope I spelled that right) agreement to which you referred was a masterstroke of European stuff upedness. But they meant it to be that way. By setting up multiple kingdoms and protectorates (Syria, Jordan, Palestine, etc) the Europeans were stifling an emerging Pan-Arabic state**. This is colonial control lesson 101.

** which the Poms had promised to the Saudis for helping them defeat the Turks and then they reneged. See Lawrence of Arabia (Seven Pillars of Wisdom, TE Lawrence)

While we are talking about books, I highly recommend:
"The Road to Oxiana" by Robert Byron (who was most likely also spying for the Brits when he was travelling) and the travel books of Freya Stark, notably "Baghdad Sketches".

Regards
SWK

[Twisted Tenon]

Nope, gotta correct that. We hear and read a lot of stuff about the middle east which colors our impressions, often as part of the justification to allow us to avoid thinking too much about what our actual business is there. (You know, they've always been fighting like this, so us being there isn't really causing any problems, cos they are just like that).
Anyway, neither Iran or Iraq are countries created recently or by the west...

Persia has a history that goes back 2000+ years, much like Greece has had. The name Iran has been used interchangeably with Persia for about 1800 years. Iran was never part of the Ottoman empire. Iran had a number of clear dynasties (much like most of the long lived European countries).
Iraq has a much longer history, being originally Uruk in Sumer 6ish thousand years ago, and has been called Iraq by the Arabs for around 1500 years. Iraq _was_ subsumed into the Ottoman (Turkish) empire for about 400* years, but to assume it didnt exist as a country/place is the same as saying Britain didnt exist because the French (! in 1066) had control of it for a while.
*In fact Iran and the Ottomans used to fight over who controlled Iraq from about 1500 to 1650 CE and the Iraqis had their own rulers, the Mamlukes, for a while too.

The Sykes Picot (Hope I spelled that right) agreement to which you referred was a masterstroke of European stuff upedness. But they meant it to be that way. By setting up multiple kingdoms and protectorates (Syria, Jordan, Palestine, etc) the Europeans were stifling an emerging Pan-Arabic state**. This is colonial control lesson 101.

** which the Poms had promised to the Saudis for helping them defeat the Turks and then they reneged. See Lawrence of Arabia (Seven Pillars of Wisdom, TE Lawrence)

While we are talking about books, I highly recommend:
"The Road to Oxiana" by Robert Byron (who was most likely also spying for the Brits when he was travelling) and the travel books of Freya Stark, notably "Baghdad Sketches".

Regards
SWK



Thanks for that SWK. It goes to my point that one should go back to a point in the past and read the real history forward (which I haven't done in this case). Of course those countries existed before the Otterman's but they were in different forms to the ones the Europeans created (reinvented?) and as you stated for different purposes. An equivalent would be Yugoslavia, a country born around the same time as modern Iran & Iraq (1918) and fell apart after Tito's death in the 1980's with disastrous consequences. India and Pakistan did much the same after the Brits left in 1947.

The Poms have a history of reneging. During WW2 the allies promised Ho Chi Min that Vietnam would have independence from the French after the war in exchange for their support against the Japanese invaders. Of course this did not happen, and I have read that instead they re armed Japanese POW's and sent them back in against the Vietnamese until the French could take over, again with disastrous consequences.


On another note, what prompted my original statement regarding researching history is that I have always been a history buff but have not always read wisely. So this year I have commenced a history degree at UON. My first subject is Australian History 1788 to mid 1970's. I selected this because I want to get to the bottom of the Black Arm Band Debate and the history wars. What I have found is a wealth of written subject matter by the original settlers, magistrates, police, Indigenous Australians, visitors etc. It opened my eyes to how much history is out there waiting to be discovered and more importantly raises the question as to why we privilege one form of history over another. My Subject next semester is Europe and the World. Should be interesting.

TT

[cava]

The Poms have a history of reneging. During WW2 the allies promised Ho Chi Min that Vietnam would have independence from the French after the war in exchange for their support against the Japanese invaders. Of course this did not happen, and I have read that instead they re armed Japanese POW's and sent them back in against the Vietnamese until the French could take over, again with disastrous consequences.


TT
The British also reneged on an independant Poland agreement during WW2.

On a different topic the Polish merchant navy were commissioned to take Italian prisoners from Africa to England from the Eastern parts of Africa around the Cape. But, on orders, they let the prisoners free on the Western side of Africa (you can speculate which religion instigated this :rolleyes:).

[swk]

... An equivalent would be Yugoslavia, a country born around the same time as modern Iran & Iraq (1918) ...

I dont know how I can say this more clearly. Iran as a country was not "born" in any way in 1918. It was neutral during WW1* and it had a continuous line of monarchs for 2000+ years, which only ended in 1979**.


*Although both sides (Brits, Russians vs Turks, Germans) invaded parts of Iran and fought _each other_ there, which tangled up the Iranians who were both allied and fighting either side at different times.

**In fact the last Shahs son is still alive in the US and there is a pretender monarchy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reza_Pahlavi,_Crown_Prince_of_Iran)which will very likely never regain the actual throne.

SWK

[woodPixel]

I was going to say earlier, but is well enunciated here, is that a "country" is nothing but an arbitrary set of moving borders over time. It has no inherent "right" to exist. It is simply an area of linguistic commonality, political or military control.... (ahem, Crimea..)

Perhaps as Australians it is easy to wrap ourselves into the idea that Oz is one giant country as we are an island (ok Tassie too!) - but I'd think that wasn't always going to be the case. I'd wager that if the historical dice had rolled slightly differently that we would be a number of separate countries.... (queenslander jokes aside)

Politics, technology, resources, rivers and military power push these borders constantly.

Look at China now with the South China Sea.... probably far more interesting than some dubious proxy war in Syria.

[Twisted Tenon]

I dont know how I can say this more clearly. Iran as a country was not "born" in any way in 1918. It was neutral during WW1* and it had a continuous line of monarchs for 2000+ years, which only ended in 1979**.


*Although both sides (Brits, Russians vs Turks, Germans) invaded parts of Iran and fought _each other_ there, which tangled up the Iranians who were both allied and fighting either side at different times.

**In fact the last Shahs son is still alive in the US and there is a pretender monarchy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reza_Pahlavi,_Crown_Prince_of_Iran)which will very likely never regain the actual throne.

SWK

Yes I need to be clearer. Iran was not born in 1918 any more than Yugoslavia was born then. The people existed there for Millenia. My point was the re arranging of the borders and the loss of control of its own government for a period.

TT

[rwbuild]

Eastern end of the Asian continent
Australian warships challenged by Chinese military in South China Sea - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-20/south-china-sea-australian-warships-challenged-by-chinese/9677908)

[FenceFurniture]

Yes Ray, I am somewhat concerned about China's muscle flexing and the "permanentness" of Xi Jinping. I do not believe their rhetoric that they are benign. The have created an economic powerhouse and production house that the rest of the world depends upon for cheap goods. It would seem that they think they can more or less do what they like now, kinda like Russia. I don't think the POTUS has a hope of trumping the Chinese Premier. I don't even think he'd be able to Trump him. :D

Furthermore, they are once more sabre rattling Tawain.

[Bushmiller]

I would suggest that if we do want to allow (semi) civil political discussions in an "off topic" sort of forum - that we create one that is "Private"... No search engine results, password access, must be a "known" participating member in good standing to gain access, etc....

Remember that this forum is read worldwide. The freedoms we experience here with regards to Free Speech and Free Thought are not experienced all over the place.... And both you and the forum owners can be prosecuted in those places for simply hosting ideas that the ruling party does not agree with... I am not talking about North Korea here - this is going on in places like Sweden and The UK of all places.....

And beyond that - the owners of this forum do not want to be publically scandalized for hosting ideas.. And I have considerable sympathy for that... Because there is no shame with regards to what people will do when they go off on a bent to destroy opposition...

TJ

I had meant to respond to your comment before and somehow I got a little distracted :rolleyes: . You of course make a very good point about the tone of this thread and it is a timely reminder to point out that this is a public forum and comments are there for all to see. Because of this and in an ever increasingly litigious society we should be careful what we say (I have fallen foul of this myself, a long time ago now, so I am not putting myself up on a pedestal and it was resolved amicably). However, the fact that it is a public forum is the essential point. To have a public voice it has to be out there where anybody can see. As long as contributors respect the rules and common sense there is no problem. Australia has freedom of speech, although it may not be quite as free as we would like.

If you want to denigrate somebody (not recommended) you should have facts to back this up: Something that will stand up in a court of law and withstand dissection by lawyers that cost much more than most of us can afford. I know it's an unpalatable thing to live with, but it is reality.

Having said that, this thread, to this point, is absolutely "civilised" and I am not pointing to any indiscretions. Just complimenting the participants and a reminder from an individual (Not a moderator).

Now on the subject of misinformation I was a little surprised when I heard the inimitable Boris Johnson may have mislead the public when he said the Russians were directly behind the poison attack on the Russian double agent. His information was apparently ambiguous. Just shows what hot water can feel like if you have not got all the facts together. Emotion over fact is not a good recipe.

Regards
Paul

Edit: I had meant to include this Forum link for anybody who is relatively new to the Forum, anybody who missed this bit when they joined and for those of us who have been here long enough that we have forgotten there are any rules and guidelines:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f90/woodwork-forums-terms-conditions-tou-198339

[Twisted Tenon]

This thread is now 4 pages and has had 9532 views without a cross word so something is working well.

TT

[doug3030]

This thread is now 4 pages and has had 9532 views without a cross word so something is working well.

Could this possibly be attributed to the absence of a large outbuilding? :)

[FenceFurniture]

Could this possibly be attributed to the absence of a large outbuilding? :):roflmao2:

Whatever do you mean? How could a large shed (or whatever it is that you mean) affect a discussion? I mean, it's an inanimate object with no feelings (or even humour) innit?

[truckjohn]

This thread is now 4 pages and has had 9532 views without a cross word so something is working well.

TT

That's because nobody bas brought up the Australian Cricket team and their little sandpaper incident... ;) ;) ;)

[Twisted Tenon]

That's because nobody bas brought up the Australian Cricket team and their little sandpaper incident... ;) ;) ;)

We don’t like talking about that anymore :D

TT

[Bushmiller]

That's because nobody bas brought up the Australian Cricket team and their little sandpaper incident... ;) ;) ;)

I'm surprised that

a) You have heard about such a trivial incident over the other side of the pond.
b) You know what cricket is.

I'm not surprised at your familiarity with sandpaper. Indeed, perhaps that is how this incident got reported worldwide. Blatant misuse of sandpaper. That may be the actual travesty. :wink: .

Regards
Paul

[truckjohn]

I'm surprised that

a) You have heard about such a trivial incident over the other side of the pond.
b) You know what cricket is.

I'm not surprised at your familiarity with sandpaper. Indeed, perhaps that is how this incident got reported worldwide. Blatant misuse of sandpaper. That may be the actual travesty. :wink: .

Regards
Paul

Paul my friend - I would have never even known about the ignominy of the Australian Cricket Team and their love of sandpaper had it not been for our fine Ubeaut Woodworking Forum here....

I feel like with the help of my fine mates down under I am now in the USA's top 1% of Knowledge of Cricket... And here's what I have learned in the last 3 weeks about cricket..
1. You are supposed to hit eachother with the ball
2. Funny looking bats
3. Rubbing the game balls on your own is part of the game...
4. Sandpaper...

;) ;)

[doug3030]

And here's what I have learned in the last 3 weeks about cricket..
1. You are supposed to hit eachother with the ball
2. Funny looking bats
3. Rubbing the game balls on your own is part of the game...
4. Sandpaper...

That's a start. But Never stop learning Truckjohn :rolleyes:

[woodPixel]

We don’t like talking about that anymore :D

We should be. I don't recall anyone saying what GRIT is was :D:D:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Now, that would start a real argument.... :p:p

[Simplicity]

We should be. I don't recall anyone saying what GRIT is was [emoji3][emoji3][emoji57][emoji57]

Now, that would start a real argument.... [emoji14][emoji14]

I wouldn't be surprised to hear they were using the back off the paper.
Because the other side was a bit ruff.

[doug3030]

We should be. I don't recall anyone saying what GRIT is was :D:D:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Now, that would start a real argument.... :p:p

They are PROFESSIONAL cricketers so they would only sand to 180 grit :rolleyes:

[Twisted Tenon]

We should be. I don't recall anyone saying what GRIT is was :D:D:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Now, that would start a real argument.... :p:p

Real pro’s would have used adhesive backed sand paper. Neva woulda been found :cool:

TT

[rustynail]

A movie maybe? "True Grit II"

[Sturdee]

This thread is now 4 pages and has had 9532 views without a cross word so something is working well.

TT

It was working so well that the thread got hijacked.

[rwbuild]

I don't know, they both have something in common, slight of hand and tactics, lack of morals and fair play.......:rolleyes:

[rwbuild]

Anyone want to hypothesize what China said to Kim that's made him supposedly put a lid on his nuclear ambitions or is there some who think DT out bluffed him.

[doug3030]

Anyone want to hypothesize what China said to Kim that's made him supposedly put a lid on his nuclear ambitions...

How about "Your haircut is much better than Donald's"?

[elanjacobs]

Anyone want to hypothesize what China said to Kim that's made him supposedly put a lid on his nuclear ambitions or is there some who think DT out bluffed him.

https://youtu.be/TLfmEZYdtrY

[Simplicity]

How about "Your haircut is much better than Donald's"?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180421/f4ced17921902543e1339789da33a727.jpg

I really shouldn't be drawn in to a conversation about hair cuts.

[Simplicity]

Anyone want to hypothesize what China said to Kim that's made him supposedly put a lid on his nuclear ambitions or is there some who think DT out bluffed him.

China told him too put a lid on it or no more freebies shipped in.
Or maybe Russia!!
But if we took away guns and bombs, this whole thing would take on a whole different perspective.
It would be interesting too see who is with who then.[emoji849]

[Twisted Tenon]

I would generally say that the original subject in question from the OP is possibly too broad and perhaps topics could be introduced on an ad hoc basis. However I am really wary of censorship.

Regards
Paul



It was working so well that the thread got hijacked.

True, it got diverted. But I agree with Paul's comments, the original subject was too broad so was open to diversion. Still I've learned things and enjoyed the jokes. Its been a good thread.:2tsup:

TT

[woodPixel]

Oops, so it wasn't about sandpaper then?

[rwbuild]

But it is about rubbing people the wrong way

[cava]

This thread seems to have petered out somewhat.

[doug3030]

This thread seems to have petered out somewhat.

Yes, it seemed to dry up when everyone was patting each-other on the back for good behaviour and maturity :rolleyes:

Go figure.

[rwbuild]

The quite before the storm. I wouldn't count any chickens yet, there's a way to go to see the true story to emerge and the true characters of all the protagonists to emerge. It's all a big game of chess or poker and smoke and mirrors at the moment.

[woodPixel]

Wait until the infection of tourism hits.

They will regret it then!

434797

[Twisted Tenon]

Yes, it seemed to dry up when everyone was patting each-other on the back for good behaviour and maturity :rolleyes:

Go figure.

This is sounds a bit like the joke about the Greek parachutist. :D

TT

[cava]

In the interest of adding to this thread, following is a link to a conference on the Theory of Evolution.

https://www.thenewamerican.com/print-magazine/item/29183-international-scientific-conference-deems-evolution-a-hoax (https://www.thenewamerican.com/print-magazine/item/29183-international-scientific-conference-deems-evolution-a-hoax)

[elanjacobs]

I'm always puzzled by the assertion that Creation/Evolution and, more generally, G-d/Science must be mutually exclusive

[AlexS]

I'm always puzzled by the assertion that Creation/Evolution and, more generally, G-d/Science must be mutually exclusive
True. Although an agnostic myself, it seems to me that if there is a 'God' the easiest way to create the universe would be to set up the scientific rules by which it operates.

[Twisted Tenon]

True. Although an agnostic myself, it seems to me that if there is a 'God' the easiest way to create the universe would be to set up the scientific rules by which it operates.

And that didn’t happen?

TT

[AlexS]

Well, there certainly are rules,even if we don't know all of them yet. Were they set by a God? That we don't know. If there is, who created Him/Her? I guess we won't ever know until it's too late.

[BobL]

True. Although an agnostic myself, it seems to me that if there is a 'God' the easiest way to create the universe would be to set up the scientific rules by which it operates.

How about the rules are god? Gravity, the strong and weak nuclear forces, and electromagnetism and their relative strengths basically what happens across the physical and chemical universe. "Feeeeel the force".

On another topic. Anyone else cynical enough to see how the Trump/Kim interaction has been staged by Russia and China to make Trump look good and keep him in the running for the next election?

[doug3030]

Anyone else cynical enough to see how the Trump/Kim interaction has been staged by Russia and China to make Trump look good and keep him in the running for the next election?

What's cynical about that?

[elanjacobs]

If there is, who created Him/Her?
That's not a valid question for the same reason that "what was before the big bang?" is not valid.

You're talking about something before the concept of time existed, when there is no before or after, it just IS. It's totally outside of human experience.

I certainly can't wrap my head around it, maybe someone else out there can

[BobL]

That's not a valid question for the same reason that "what was before the big bang?" is not valid.

You're talking about something before the concept of time existed, when there is no before or after, it just IS. It's totally outside of human experience.

I certainly can't wrap my head around it, maybe someone else out there can

The whole question of what is time is an interesting one. Recently there has been an Italian physicist/philosopher (Carlo Rovelli) on Radio National giving some talks about the nature of time. He reckons time and time line is a human construct - there's only what's going on right now to an individual and there's no such thing as past or future time. If you want to do your head in, try listening to him, he also has plenty of youtube vids - it takes him a long time (ha ha) to say relatively little.

[Twisted Tenon]

The whole question of what is time is an interesting one. Recently there has been an Italian physicist/philosopher (Carlo Rovelli) on Radio National giving some talks about the nature of time. He reckons time and time line is a human construct - there's only what's going on right now to an individual and there's no such thing as past or future time. If you want to do your head in, try listening to him, he also has plenty of youtube vids - it takes him a long time (ha ha) to say relatively little.

If the earth didn't rotate on its axis while orbiting the sun, would there be time? I was created and after a period, I will die. So time does not need to be measured to exist.

TT

[cava]

On another topic. Anyone else cynical enough to see how the Trump/Kim interaction has been staged by Russia and China to make Trump look good and keep him in the running for the next election?

Well, Trump does appear to be making more progress than his predecessors.

[elanjacobs]

If the earth didn't rotate on its axis while orbiting the sun, would there be time?
We would have to develop a different method of measuring it

Time is a human construct in the sense that we are the only species to measure it and to use it to describe the world; it would still exist if there was no-one or no reason to measure it, it just wouldn't matter.

It's also unique because it's the one part of nature that we can't interact with.

I guess you could say it doesn't "exist" because there's nothing physical to observe, but I would contend that it's still a very real part of existence.

[Twisted Tenon]

We would have to develop a different method of measuring it

Time is a human construct in the sense that we are the only species to measure it and to use it to describe the world; it would still exist if there was no-one or no reason to measure it, it just wouldn't matter.

It's also unique because it's the one part of nature that we can't interact with.

I guess you could say it doesn't "exist" because there's nothing physical to observe, but I would contend that it's still a very real part of existence.

That’s an interesting concept, Time as a part of nature. I think it exists because everything dies.

TT