Attitudes to the road toll

[Twisted Tenon]

Ryan was a neighbor and family friend. CHP: Wrong way driver in I-5 fatal head-on crash may have been suicidal | KRCR (http://krcrtv.com/news/shasta-county/chp-wrong-way-driver-in-i-5-fatal-head-on-crash-may-have-been-suicidal)

I am so sorry to read this Rob. Words are meaningless when it is so close to home.

TT

[rob streeper]

Thanks TT.

A part of me wants to wring the neck of the girl who did this and another part of me wants to wring the collective necks of the austerity politicians who are killing our society by cutting off services for those who need them.

[ian]

These two reports from the ABC describe the outcomes from two essentially similar fatal carshes.
In terms of attitudes to the road toll, can someone explain why the outcomes are so different for the "at fault" drivers.
Fatigued father jailed for Heathridge crash that killed Perth motorcyclist Cameron Budovich - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-12/fatigued-driver-jailed-for-crash-that-killed-perth-motorcyclist/9325424)
Woman avoids jail over crash that killed former soldier Henryk Frank Kustra - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-10/woman-who-caused-henryk-frank-kustras-death-avoids-jail/9318484?WT.ac=localnews_canberra)

[doug3030]

In terms of attitudes to the road toll, can someone explain why the outcomes are so different for the "at fault" drivers.

I think that to do so would take the thread back to a direction that we were earlier asked to discontinue.

[Twisted Tenon]

These two reports from the ABC describe the outcomes from two essentially similar fatal carshes.
In terms of attitudes to the road toll, can someone explain why the outcomes are so different for the "at fault" drivers.
Fatigued father jailed for Heathridge crash that killed Perth motorcyclist Cameron Budovich - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-12/fatigued-driver-jailed-for-crash-that-killed-perth-motorcyclist/9325424)
Woman avoids jail over crash that killed former soldier Henryk Frank Kustra - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-10/woman-who-caused-henryk-frank-kustras-death-avoids-jail/9318484?WT.ac=localnews_canberra)

One word Ian “politics”. The ACT doesn’t have a gaol so sends it’s offenders to NSW gaols. The 72 year old woman would have to go to Dyllwinia via the MRRC. Too much trouble for all concerned. At best she will be placed into some sort of community based driving program (if one exists there) because Corrections doesn’t do programs for “accidents”.
The West Aussi guy could appeal if he had the wherewithal, but this sounds unlikely given his personal circumstances as reported.

TT

[rob streeper]

I think that people don't respect automobiles anymore. In part I see this as arising in the fact that the models now available are so much safer. Another part is that the roads are better by far than they were when I was young. An unfortunate side effect is that people drive even faster now as the improved safety has apparently given them a sense of impunity or immortality.

My grandfather was a mortician. I remember riding with him and he would never exceed 40 - 45 mph, never. It didn't matter that other drivers would honk their horns at him or make rude gestures, he just wouldn't drive any faster. I asked my dad once why granddad did this and he replied 'He's seen too much death. The old man may take all day to drive across town but he will always make it, doesn't matter if there's three feet of snow.' That being said he wouldn't drive in the rain unless the errand was essential.

What needs to be cemented in the mind of every young person is that cars can be deadly and dead is dead, no going back. Maybe an apt punishment for those who abuse driving privileges is to be sentenced to assisting in autopsies for a spell or to be required to explain to the kids of victims like Ryan why their dad isn't coming home.

[Twisted Tenon]

What needs to be cemented in the mind of every young person is that cars can be deadly and dead is dead, no going back. Maybe an apt punishment for those who abuse driving privileges is to be sentenced to assisting in autopsies for a spell or to be required to explain to the kids of victims like Ryan why their dad isn't coming home.


You've nailed it there Rob. A mixture of education and experiencing the consequences.


TT

[MAPLEMAN]

I know an elderly lady that has regular black outs...and drives!:oo:
She has even admitted recently that 'perhaps' she should NOT be driving :doh:
You see she values her independence MORE than she values the life of others :rolleyes:
Mentioned her case to QLD Main roads staffer recently who was mortified at the prospect
So not always the young at fault :no:
Beware of the 'bopping' granny...MM:)

[ian]

I think that to do so would take the thread back to a direction that we were earlier asked to discontinue.That is part of the problem around the road toll -- an unwillingness to discuss the hard issues.

On the face of it the two examples I posted differ mostly by gender and willingness to volunteer a possible explanation.
the main take away for me is that avoiding taking responsibility by saying "I don't remember. I have no idea." Is a much better response, than accepting responsibility through "I think I must have fallen asleep at the wheel."

Personally accept responsibility and you will probably go to jail.

[ian]

I think that people don't respect automobiles anymore. In part I see this as arising in the fact that the models now available are so much safer. Another part is that the roads are better by far than they were when I was young. An unfortunate side effect is that people drive even faster now as the improved safety has apparently given them a sense of impunity or immortality.

What needs to be cemented in the mind of every young person is that cars can be deadly and dead is dead, no going back. Maybe an apt punishment for those who abuse driving privileges is to be sentenced to assisting in autopsies for a spell or to be required to explain to the kids of victims like Ryan why their dad isn't coming home.
unfortunately, it is much more than this.

In NSW at least, there is extensive research* backing the following:

1. Prior to graduated licencing, and a minimum number of hours of supervised experience, when a person obtained their licence, their main driving skill was an ability to pass the driving test. Nothing more. The typical student fronted for a driving test with less than 20 hours behind the wheel. That person then spent the next few years actually learning to drive, how to judge distances, how to control a vehicle outside the confines of a suburban street and 40 km/h. Not surprisingly, many drivers crashed whilst gaining this additional experience.

2. Graduated licencing is intended to minimise the risk, while young people gain the driving experience needed to survive on their own.

3. The minimum number of supervised hours is intended to try and give young people some experience under different driving conditions -- night, day, freeway, traffic, etc -- prior to them going full independent. Unfortunately, too many learners rack up their hours sitting in peak hour traffic blindly following the car in front, braking when it brakes, crawling forward when it moves, etc, or driving along the freeway on Sunday afternoon with the car on cruise control. Very few actually get to think about the need to reduce speed on the approach to a tight corner because it's all too hard to go looking for those types of road. And anecdotally, most learners with 120 hours in the log book, actually only have around 60% of those hours.

4. One side effect of the 120 supervised hours requirement is that some young people put off obtaining a licence. The jury is out on whether this is a good or bad thing. One impact might be that instead of a bunch of 17 and 18 year olds starting to drive independently after a nominal 120 hours of supervision, it will be a bunch of 23 year olds driving independently (while still learning to drive) after a much shorter period of supervision.

5. road safety experts see self-driving cars as the "next big thing" to reduce the road toll. Personally I have my doubts.

[beefy]

I know an elderly lady that has regular black outs...and drives!:oo:
She has even admitted recently that 'perhaps' she should NOT be driving :doh:
You see she values her independence MORE than she values the life of others :rolleyes:
Mentioned her case to QLD Main roads staffer recently who was mortified at the prospect
So not always the young at fault :no:
Beware of the 'bopping' granny...MM:)

INDEED - it certainly is not just the young.

A few pages ago I mentioned about the general angry aggressive attitude I see so much of here. And as I said I've been making it a point to have a look at the drivers who carry out aggressive dangerous driving. Seems to me many of the kids are taking after the adult drivers. Take a look at all the powerful V8 engine cars and utes, and look at who's driving them. They're driven by all ages and I see it as representative of the hoon mentality or more than just the young ones. A very typical example just a couple of days ago. I'm at a traffic light behind other cars. Lights go green and I move off, can't go any faster than the car in front of me. Blue ute behind me is right up my backside trying to push me closer to the car in front of me. So I make it obvious I'm staring at him in the mirror and I back off the gas. He gets the message and backs off, but throws his hands up in the air and shakes his head. His rego was **AUTO (don't want to get myself litigated against by a hoon) and he appeared middle aged or more. So I'm guessing he owns some sort of car business, a good "respectable" business owner. Yeah right, but still yet another non-young V8 ute driving aggressive dick, a great teacher for the kids. This is common in my 15 years experience here, so I'm concluding there's a lot of like father like son. If there was some intelligence in this aggressive behaviour it would make it a little less infuriating, but this behaviour seems carried out even when the victim driver can't do anything. I mean where the hell could I go when there's cars in front of me.

Yeah, drugs and alcohol will contribute, but I'd love to know the REAL percentage of accidents caused by these in comparison with plain aggressive / impatient driving. And better driver training will have very little effect if the driver doesn't have the right attitude and wants to implement what he/she was taught.

Ha ha, and talking about "he/she" there's plenty aggressive women behind the wheels too I've noticed. I think the overall problem is in our culture. Fair enough, of course it's not everyone, just a significant enough proportion that you'll see plenty examples of this behaviour nearly every time you drive.

[rob streeper]

unfortunately, it is much more than this.

In NSW at least, there is extensive research* backing the following:

1. Prior to graduated licencing, and a minimum number of hours of supervised experience, when a person obtained their licence, their main driving skill was an ability to pass the driving test. Nothing more. The typical student fronted for a driving test with less than 20 hours behind the wheel. That person then spent the next few years actually learning to drive, how to judge distances, how to control a vehicle outside the confines of a suburban street and 40 km/h. Not surprisingly, many drivers crashed whilst gaining this additional experience.

2. Graduated licencing is intended to minimise the risk, while young people gain the driving experience needed to survive on their own.

3. The minimum number of supervised hours is intended to try and give young people some experience under different driving conditions -- night, day, freeway, traffic, etc -- prior to them going full independent. Unfortunately, too many learners rack up their hours sitting in peak hour traffic blindly following the car in front, braking when it brakes, crawling forward when it moves, etc, or driving along the freeway on Sunday afternoon with the car on cruise control. Very few actually get to think about the need to reduce speed on the approach to a tight corner because it's all too hard to go looking for those types of road. And anecdotally, most learners with 120 hours in the log book, actually only have around 60% of those hours.

4. One side effect of the 120 supervised hours requirement is that some young people put off obtaining a licence. The jury is out on whether this is a good or bad thing. One impact might be that instead of a bunch of 17 and 18 year olds starting to drive independently after a nominal 120 hours of supervision, it will be a bunch of 23 year olds driving independently (while still learning to drive) after a much shorter period of supervision.

5. road safety experts see self-driving cars as the "next big thing" to reduce the road toll. Personally I have my doubts.

Yes, that was the motivation for the start of this thread - I pointed out on another thread that Texas has no requirement for driver training beyond a written exam and brief on the road testing.
In Illinois where I grew up all of the high schools had driver training courses that ran a full academic year. The first half was classroom instruction 5 days/week, 1 hour per day. The second half included an on the road element with an instructor in addition to the classroom instruction. Successful completion of this course enabled acquisition of a driving license at the age of 16 years. No course and you had to wait until 18 years old. There was a learners permit system that allowed driving in the company of an adult for a period followed by a period in which the learner could drive during daylight and early evening hours only. Driving in Illinois was a far saner experience than it is in Texas.

[MAPLEMAN]

I think that people don't respect automobiles anymore. In part I see this as arising in the fact that the models now available are so much safer. Another part is that the roads are better by far than they were when I was young. An unfortunate side effect is that people drive even faster now as the improved safety has apparently given them a sense of impunity or immortality.

My grandfather was a mortician. I remember riding with him and he would never exceed 40 - 45 mph, never. It didn't matter that other drivers would honk their horns at him or make rude gestures, he just wouldn't drive any faster. I asked my dad once why granddad did this and he replied 'He's seen too much death. The old man may take all day to drive across town but he will always make it, doesn't matter if there's three feet of snow.' That being said he wouldn't drive in the rain unless the errand was essential.

What needs to be cemented in the mind of every young person is that cars can be deadly and dead is dead, no going back. Maybe an apt punishment for those who abuse driving privileges is to be sentenced to assisting in autopsies for a spell or to be required to explain to the kids of victims like Ryan why their dad isn't coming home.People don't respect people anymore...that's the problem...and I can understand why the youth have little or no respect for authority...you reckon our politicians are good role models(Trump a prime example) for our kids??...MM:(

[cava]

...you reckon our politicians are good role models(Trump a prime example) for our kids??...MM:(

Perhaps.....but my understanding is that the Trump administration has caught over 1000 paedophiles in the last 12 months, that were allowed to 'exist' under previous governments.

[MAPLEMAN]

Perhaps.....but my understanding is that the Trump administration has caught over 1000 paedophiles in the last 12 months, that were allowed to 'exist' under previous governments.Total nonsense George...MM

[doug3030]

....

[MAPLEMAN]

INDEED - it certainly is not just the young.

A few pages ago I mentioned about the general angry aggressive attitude I see so much of here. And as I said I've been making it a point to have a look at the drivers who carry out aggressive dangerous driving. Seems to me many of the kids are taking after the adult drivers. Take a look at all the powerful V8 engine cars and utes, and look at who's driving them. They're driven by all ages and I see it as representative of the hoon mentality or more than just the young ones. A very typical example just a couple of days ago. I'm at a traffic light behind other cars. Lights go green and I move off, can't go any faster than the car in front of me. Blue ute behind me is right up my backside trying to push me closer to the car in front of me. So I make it obvious I'm staring at him in the mirror and I back off the gas. He gets the message and backs off, but throws his hands up in the air and shakes his head. His rego was **AUTO (don't want to get myself litigated against by a hoon) and he appeared middle aged or more. So I'm guessing he owns some sort of car business, a good "respectable" business owner. Yeah right, but still yet another non-young V8 ute driving aggressive dick, a great teacher for the kids. This is common in my 15 years experience here, so I'm concluding there's a lot of like father like son. If there was some intelligence in this aggressive behaviour it would make it a little less infuriating, but this behaviour seems carried out even when the victim driver can't do anything. I mean where the hell could I go when there's cars in front of me.

Yeah, drugs and alcohol will contribute, but I'd love to know the REAL percentage of accidents caused by these in comparison with plain aggressive / impatient driving. And better driver training will have very little effect if the driver doesn't have the right attitude and wants to implement what he/she was taught.

Ha ha, and talking about "he/she" there's plenty aggressive women behind the wheels too I've noticed. I think the overall problem is in our culture. Fair enough, of course it's not everyone, just a significant enough proportion that you'll see plenty examples of this behaviour nearly every time you drive.Agree...MM:2tsup:

[cava]

Total nonsense George...MM
But what if I'm right?

[rustynail]

My mother in law has just turned 86. She got her drivers Lic in the Snowy, sixty years ago, by driving a jeep once around the block while the testing officer stood on the kerb and watched! She lives in the middle of Sydney, drives every day and has never had an accident. Never been booked. She is now thinking of giving driving away, as she feels there are too many cars on the road these days.
Maybe therein lies the problem.

[Dibbers]

I think blaming video games is a bit of a cop out. If someone has latent violent tendencies, something will trigger it regardless. No one that I've ever heard comment on the issue seems to think kids growing up on farms who watch parents (or do it themselves) kill, gut and skin animals is desensitising them to violence, but a video game does? Its just an excuse for having a bit of a screw loose IMO.

I think the growing problem is more to do with the lack of awareness of other people. More and more kids are growing up with an inflated sense of self importance. They get awards for participating, play sport where they don't keep score so no one loses etc. They don't learn that other peoples effort, input or whatever matters, just their own.

The lack of respect for authority also comes into it, but that's not the fault of the kids. All the power to discipline children have been removed. I'm not saying they should be whacked when they do something wrong, but more and more parents lose it at teachers who say their kids have issues with authority (this is from the mouths of friends who are primary teachers). Every time they try to broach the subject with parents, its denial 101. "Little Johnny is a fantastic, well behaved child and you mustn't be doing your job properly or trying hard enough".

People are becoming more and more self absorbed and don't look at consequences to their actions outside their immediate bubble....

[woodPixel]

More fun! Dashcam footage captures crash near Townsville after teens in allegedly stolen vehicle injure three - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-15/dashcam-footage-of-teens-stolen-car-crash-far-north-queensland/9330804)

[doug3030]

More fun! Dashcam footage captures crash near Townsville after teens in allegedly stolen vehicle injure three - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-15/dashcam-footage-of-teens-stolen-car-crash-far-north-queensland/9330804)


Police said the driver of the Cruze returned to pick up the occupants of the Challenger before fleeing the scene
"It shows they have a complete lack of empathy and a lack of remorse for what has happened," Detective Inspector Miles said.
"In essence there are people there who have been and were significantly injured and just left them there without rendering any assistance whatsoever."

Amazing.Where do 16-year-olds learn to drive like that? And for one to comeback to pickup the other and leave three injured people trapped in their car...

[ian]

Amazing.Where do 16-year-olds learn to drive like that? And for one to comeback to pickup the other and leave three injured people trapped in their car...go onto the ABC news site and search for stories and commentary from Townsville.

The city seems to harbour a significant population of young people who believe that Australian society "owes them" for past injustices and that what they do now is just part of clawing back what they are "owed".

[MAPLEMAN]

Of course NONE of us 'baby boomers' ever misbehaved inappropriately behind the wheel of a motor vehicle when we were teens :rolleyes:...MM:no:

[ian]

Of course NONE of us 'baby boomers' ever misbehaved inappropriately behind the wheel of a motor vehicle when we were teens :rolleyes:...MM:no:maybe not


but then, very few of us would have been habitual car thieves

[MAPLEMAN]

maybe not


but then, very few of us would have been habitual car thievesWhat ever you reckon mate...MM:)

[aldav]

I haven't read this whole thread so apologize in advance if this has already been covered. Start rant.

Some of the stupidest drivers I see are the ones who take no action (read slow down) when they can see the potential for an accident immediately in front of them. Yes, it's like they're in a hurry to get there to see how much havoc can be created. Two cases in point:
1. Following 3 other vehicles spaced about 100 metres apart on the Hume Hwy in Southern NSW. Car second in line starts to veer off to the left shoulder of the road, corrects it's course, but my radar is instantly on high alert. Shortly after it veers completely off the road into the long grass (don't ask me how he didn't find something to hit in there), does a couple of 180's and veers back on to the road still traveling at speed. Car number 3 behind him doesn't slow at all, still doing 110kmh. He could have gone anywhere! I'd slowed so much he was still well ahead when he pulled back on to the road.
2. New Years Eve about 11:00pm traveling South on the Princes Hwy in a line of traffic coming in to Bomaderry. Driver two cars ahead has made several moves that indicate he is very keen to pass. Pulls out to overtake as we're approaching the 70 speed limit signs, car coming the other way has to pull partially off the road to avoid a collision. Driver in front of me doesn't slacken his pace at all, I'm dropping back steadily at the first sign of the other drivers indiscretion.

As long as there are drivers as dumb as these people with a drivers licence the road toll has no hope of coming down. Don't get me started about the ones that can't stay on their side of the road regardless of how slow they go.

Rant over.

[DavidG]

My father taught me a few things about driving.
No point in being dead right.
Time is a friend. The more you have between you and an incident the better.

[Dibbers]

So I'm on another forum unrelated to Woodwork (My NRL teams fan forum actually), and in the Politics Thread (dangerous thing to follow that, almost as fraught with danger as the Religion Thread!) there was a post that i thought was highly applicable to this discussion. Its a bit of a read, but a pretty decent summary by a seemingly ignored subject matter expert of sorts.


This is a letter written to the PM by the CEO of Toll about recent fatalities involving trucks.....its a bit of a read, but is well worth it.


11 January 2018

The Hon Malcolm Turnbull MP Prime Minister Parliament House CANBERRA ACT 2600


Dear Prime Minister

Recent media reports have highlighted what we in the transport industry already know all too well - Australia has a dire road safety problem. In the five years to 2016, more than 1,000 people were killed in truck crashes. Our approach to heavy vehicles in this country is core to tackling this issue.

We have heard from many experts across government and academia on what needs to be done to improve road safety, and we thank them for their important contributions. I write to you to as the leader of Australia’s largest transport and logistics company, Toll Group, and the former leader of Linfox, the second largest transport company. I’ve worked in the trucking business since I was 13 years old, and am a second generation industry veteran with my mother having run a highly successful transport business.

I offer you a different perspective to this important discussion on what must be done to improve safety on our roads. I bring you an operator’s perspective.

We must begin by addressing six critical areas.

Firstly, we must have one rule book across Australia. Starting with the basics - we are yet to have a consistent definition of what a “heavy vehicle” is. Sometimes it’s a vehicle above 12 tonnes (for work and rest hours), sometimes above 12 tonnes and manufactured after 1997 (for speed limiters – except in NSW), and sometimes a vehicle above 4.5 tonnes (mass, dimension and load restraint). Compliance starts with clarity of the rules. A truck should be any vehicle 4.5 tonnes and above. Period.

On the life and death matter of driver fatigue, our current state-based system allows drivers to drive for up to 17 hours in a 24 hour period in Western Australia and up to 18 hours in the Northern Territory – a workday that would be illegal for a driver in any other state. This leaves time for a maximum of only 6 to 7 hours of rest in a 24 hour period – resulting in the physiological equivalent of a blood alcohol concentration of 0.05. We do not accept drunk driving. We should not accept fatigued driving.

Further, the maximum speed limit for trucks between 4.5 and 12 tonne varies from 100 km/h in NSW to 130 km/h in the Northern Territory. Any truck driver making the slightest error in judgement at 130 km/h will certainly have a devastating outcome for the driver and anyone unfortunate enough to be in the vicinity.

It is time for a genuinely national approach to heavy vehicle regulation, including for heavy vehicle driver licensing. A national driver licensing system can stipulate the skills and competencies required to safely drive a heavy vehicle, including how to restrain a load and how to fill out a work diary. A genuinely national system would mean that licence cancellation in one state means cancellation in all states. A targeted strategy will attract new drivers, arrest the decline in competent drivers and provide a career path for driving professionals.

The National Heavy Vehicle Regulator was supposed to deliver one rule book. It hasn’t. Western Australia and the Northern Territory have refused to sign up to the national law. And so today Australian road freight operators are subject to multiple and overlapping rules at the local council, state and national level. Let’s look to aviation for inspiration on how this can be achieved. This industry is subject to one set of rules. No exceptions. We must follow.

Secondly, we must introduce an operator licensing system. Where operators in maritime, rail and aviation must all demonstrate their safety and competence before they can operate, in road transport virtually anyone with a truck, a driver and an ABN can be a road freight operator. This makes Australia unusual: most comparable countries have an operator licensing system for road transport. For example, in the UK, road transport operators must pass a “fit and proper” person test, prove they have the funds to maintain vehicles, and employ transport managers who understand what compliance looks like.

Third, the solution to the road toll cannot and will not come solely from industry. The community, government, enforcement and road safety bodies must do their part too. Through NTI data, we know that in 93% of fatalities involving a truck, the other party was at fault. Yet national and state road safety strategies are silent on how light vehicle drivers can “share the road” safely with trucks. There is an opportunity to ensure that drivers are educated on driving safely around trucks, such as safe stopping distances and over-taking, as part of licensing schemes.

Fourth, by pulling the right policy levers, government can incentivise and reward safe behaviours from heavy vehicle operators. Discounted registration and stamp duty fees could be offered to operators with sound safety records. Government can also mandate investment in newer, safer more sustainable fleet. Technologies such as autonomous emergency braking systems, lane departure warning systems and electronic stability control can save up to 104 lives per year but are taking too long to become standard in the fleet. The average age of a heavy rigid truck in Australia is 15.7 years. The average age of an articulated truck is 11.9 years. An operator licensing system could stipulate a maximum vehicle age or offer subsidies/incentives to safe operators to deploy these lifesaving technologies.

Fifth, mandate telematics, which includes GPS and black box technology, for all new heavy vehicles. Enforcement of the rules is tough in Australia because of the vast distances between towns. There are not enough police to catch every driver and operator that puts other road users at risk. Mandatory telematics on every vehicle will identify operators that systematically and deliberately speed, overload vehicles and push fatigue limits. Removing operators that refuse to do the right thing protects the community and allows good operators to remain competitive.

Finally, we must ensure that operators such as Toll Group are actively engaged in any debate and policy development pertaining to road safety and heavy vehicles. Any discussion on heavy vehicle regulation must draw on private sector expertise to truly understand how we can overcome the obstacles that are holding us back from creating safer roads for our community.

To recap, I call on the government to make the following six points a priority to affect real improvements in driving the road toll down:

(1) Have one rule book for heavy vehicles and heavy vehicle drivers across the country. No variations, no exceptions. This must cover a standard definition of a heavy vehicle as well as a national approach to: mandatory stationary rest times for heavy vehicle drivers, speed limits for heavy vehicles and a driver licensing system
(2) Introduce a national operator licensing system
(3) Enhance community understanding of how to drive safely around trucks, including through the graduated licensing system and education campaigns
(4) Incentivise and reward safe, modern fleets with life-saving technologies
(5) Make telematics mandatory for regulatory purposes.
(6) Draw on private sector expertise from transport operators in any discussion on improving road safety outcomes pertaining to heavy vehicles

I am sending this letter to all Road and Road Safety Ministers across Australia with the view to driving collaboration across governments. As Australia’s largest provider of road freight logistics, Toll stands ready to work with all governments to make these six points a reality.

In our view, we don’t need any further research, studies and committees. We have immediate, critical opportunities before us today that, when implemented, will save lives. We know what needs to be done. It is time for action.

Yours sincerely,




CC: Hon Barnaby Joyce, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Infrastructure and Transport Peter Fox, Executive Chairman of Linfox Pty Ltd James Chessell, National Editor, The Age and Sydney Morning Herald Tony Sheldon, National Secretary Transport Workers Union Michael Kilgariff Chief Executive & Managing Director, Australian Logistics Council Geoff Crouch, Chair, Australian Trucking Association

[Mr Brush]

My father taught me a few things about driving.
No point in being dead right.
Time is a friend. The more you have between you and an incident the better.

Yup.....the object of the game is not to get involved in other people's accidents. For example, when stopped in a row of traffic at roadwork, I always leave enough space to the car in front and have an escape route planned in case something comes up too fast behind and can't stop. Recent tragic accident where a truck ran up the back of a row of stationary cars at speed (2 dead) illustrates the point, unfortunately. Also, when overtaking trucks on the freeway, don't drive alongside them for any longer than you have to - gas it to get past quickly, then ease off when you are well past, and pull back into the LH lane. I'd rather exceed the speed limit by 10km/h for a very short spell than drive alongside a gently weaving tanker full of flammable liquid any longer than I have to.

A lot of the every near misses I've witnessed over the holidays involve people misjudging the speed of oncoming traffic before pulling out in front of it. Possibly this is more part-time drivers on the road at this time of year?

[doug3030]

...

Car second in line starts to veer off to the left shoulder of the road, corrects it's course, but my radar is instantly on high alert. ...

Driver in front of me doesn't slacken his pace at all, I'm dropping back steadily at the first sign of the other drivers indiscretion. ...

Congratulations Aldav, I see that you too are one of the few drivers who actually look further down the road than the bumper of the car in front. :2tsup:

[Twisted Tenon]

So I'm on another forum unrelated to Woodwork (My NRL teams fan forum actually), and in the Politics Thread (dangerous thing to follow that, almost as fraught with danger as the Religion Thread!) there was a post that i thought was highly applicable to this discussion. Its a bit of a read, but a pretty decent summary by a seemingly ignored subject matter expert of sorts.



I heard this person speaking about this on the ABC yesterday Dibbers. And immediately thought about the rest times allowed for truck drivers. This is something the industry itself could address by including sensible rest periods in the driver contracts. There should be a collaboration between the drivers, the industry and governments as a matter of urgency.

My favorite Paul Keating quote comes to mind though "In a two horse race, always back self interest" :rolleyes:

TT

[Dibbers]

I heard this person speaking about this on the ABC yesterday Dibbers. And immediately thought about the rest times allowed for truck drivers. This is something the industry itself could address by including sensible rest periods in the driver contracts. There should be a collaboration between the drivers, the industry and governments as a matter of urgency.

My favorite Paul Keating quote comes to mind though "In a two horse race, always back self interest" :rolleyes:

TT
When reading i definitely got a vibe of "remove the small players that can't afford to conform with these new rules give us and Linfox a duopoly", but at the same time, there are some very valid points in there.

The rest period piece can be changed by the industry, but when dollars are on the line, it'll go out the window. If its legislated and there are real financial penalties, then you're more likely to see real change.

I also agree with more education around driving around trucks... the amount of people i see on my drive into work through Sydney traffic jumping into a lane in front of a tanker trying to come to a stop at a red light on a down hill run is ridiculous! I once saw a truckie (and rightly so IMO) get out of his truck and abolutely give a driver hell for doing it! He wasn't being violent, but just letting them know what a sizable male appendage they were

[doug3030]

The rest period piece can be changed by the industry, but when dollars are on the line, it'll go out the window. If its legislated and there are real financial penalties, then you're more likely to see real change.

The critical thing here is who gets the "real financial penalties"?

If it's the drivers, then the trucking companies will continue to press for more productivity resulting in driver fatigue and falsified logbooks etc. There needs to be clear legislation on how the transport companies operate and severe penalties for them pushing drivers too hard.

[Dibbers]

The critical thing here is who gets the "real financial penalties"?

If it's the drivers, then the trucking companies will continue to press for more productivity resulting in driver fatigue and falsified logbooks etc. There needs to be clear legislation on how the transport companies operate and severe penalties for them pushing drivers too hard.

That's what i'm saying. They need to punish the companies not the drivers.

I like the "black box" idea too... but again, this favours larger companies with the financial ability to buy new rigs or fit out older rigs with these devices.

[Lappa]

Got to love our pollies.
News this morning that the Roads and Transport Minister wants to hook truck drivers to an electrical device that will give them an electric shock if they look sideways for more than two seconds.

[Bohdan]

Got to love our pollies.
News this morning that the Roads and Transport Minister wants to hook truck drivers to an electrical device that will give them an electric shock if they look sideways for more than two seconds.


So now at a T intersection they will start to pull out into heavy traffic without looking.

[doug3030]

Got to love our pollies.
News this morning that the Roads and Transport Minister wants to hook truck drivers to an electrical device that will give them an electric shock if they look sideways for more than two seconds.

How about a similar device that gives an electric shock to politicians who doze off in parliament?

[Twisted Tenon]

When reading i definitely got a vibe of "remove the small players that can't afford to conform with these new rules give us and Linfox a duopoly", but at the same time, there are some very valid points in there.

The rest period piece can be changed by the industry, but when dollars are on the line, it'll go out the window. If its legislated and there are real financial penalties, then you're more likely to see real change.

I also agree with more education around driving around trucks... the amount of people i see on my drive into work through Sydney traffic jumping into a lane in front of a tanker trying to come to a stop at a red light on a down hill run is ridiculous! I once saw a truckie (and rightly so IMO) get out of his truck and abolutely give a driver hell for doing it! He wasn't being violent, but just letting them know what a sizable male appendage they were




The vibe I got from listening to him speak was similar in that it was all about what the Guvmint should be doing about it. He spoke on all the points in the letter you posted but during the interview appeared to be shifting the blame away from the big owners.

TT

[FenceFurniture]

How about a similar device that gives an electric shock to politicians who doze off in parliament?Nah, leave 'em asleep. They make much more sense that way.

[ian]

Got to love our pollies.
News this morning that the Roads and Transport Minister wants to hook truck drivers to an electrical device that will give them an electric shock if they look sideways for more than two seconds.
I haven't seen or heard this story, but will hazard the guess that what the minister said had a grain of truth but was otherwise all garbled.
Researchers for at least the past 20 years have been looking at ways to detect and combat driver fatigue, especially among heavy vehicle drivers. Things that have been suggested are monitoring eye movement and administering a "jolt" of some sort to wake the driver up should their eye movement indicate that they are likely to be asleep at the wheel. (as an aside, most freight trains are fitted with vigilance alarms that will go off if the driver doesn't do something every 60 seconds or so. Unless the driver cancels the alarm, some seconds after the alarm goes off the train's brakes are applied automatically.) It would be nice to have something similar in heavy trucks.

[ian]

So I'm on another forum unrelated to Woodwork (My NRL teams fan forum actually), and in the Politics Thread (dangerous thing to follow that, almost as fraught with danger as the Religion Thread!) there was a post that i thought was highly applicable to this discussion. Its a bit of a read, but a pretty decent summary by a seemingly ignored subject matter expert of sorts.is it only me who sees the inconsistency in this letter and any ensuing conversation.

11 January 2018

The Hon Malcolm Turnbull MP Prime Minister Parliament House CANBERRA ACT 2600


Dear Prime Minister

Recent media reports have highlighted what we in the transport industry already know all too well - Australia has a dire road safety problem. In the five years to 2016, more than 1,000 people were killed in truck crashes. Our approach to heavy vehicles in this country is core to tackling this issue.

We have heard from many experts across government and academia on what needs to be done to improve road safety, and we thank them for their important contributions. I write to you to as the leader of Australia’s largest transport and logistics company, Toll Group, and the former leader of Linfox, the second largest transport company. I’ve worked in the trucking business since I was 13 years old, and am a second generation industry veteran with my mother having run a highly successful transport business.

I offer you a different perspective to this important discussion on what must be done to improve safety on our roads. I bring you an operator’s perspective.

We must begin by addressing six critical areas.

Firstly, we must have one rule book across Australia. Starting with the basics - we are yet to have a consistent definition of what a “heavy vehicle” is. Sometimes it’s a vehicle above 12 tonnes (for work and rest hours), sometimes above 12 tonnes and manufactured after 1997 (for speed limiters – except in NSW), and sometimes a vehicle above 4.5 tonnes (mass, dimension and load restraint). Compliance starts with clarity of the rules. A truck should be any vehicle 4.5 tonnes and above. Period.

On the life and death matter of driver fatigue, our current state-based system allows drivers to drive for up to 17 hours in a 24 hour period in Western Australia and up to 18 hours in the Northern Territory – a workday that would be illegal for a driver in any other state. This leaves time for a maximum of only 6 to 7 hours of rest in a 24 hour period – resulting in the physiological equivalent of a blood alcohol concentration of 0.05. We do not accept drunk driving. We should not accept fatigued driving.

Further, the maximum speed limit for trucks between 4.5 and 12 tonne varies from 100 km/h in NSW to 130 km/h in the Northern Territory. Any truck driver making the slightest error in judgement at 130 km/h will certainly have a devastating outcome for the driver and anyone unfortunate enough to be in the vicinity.

It is time for a genuinely national approach to heavy vehicle regulation, including for heavy vehicle driver licensing. A national driver licensing system can stipulate the skills and competencies required to safely drive a heavy vehicle, including how to restrain a load and how to fill out a work diary. A genuinely national system would mean that licence cancellation in one state means cancellation in all states. A targeted strategy will attract new drivers, arrest the decline in competent drivers and provide a career path for driving professionals.

The National Heavy Vehicle Regulator was supposed to deliver one rule book. It hasn’t. Western Australia and the Northern Territory have refused to sign up to the national law. And so today Australian road freight operators are subject to multiple and overlapping rules at the local council, state and national level. Let’s look to aviation for inspiration on how this can be achieved. This industry is subject to one set of rules. No exceptions. We must follow.

Secondly, we must introduce an operator licensing system. Where operators in maritime, rail and aviation must all demonstrate their safety and competence before they can operate, in road transport virtually anyone with a truck, a driver and an ABN can be a road freight operator. This makes Australia unusual: most comparable countries have an operator licensing system for road transport. For example, in the UK, road transport operators must pass a “fit and proper” person test, prove they have the funds to maintain vehicles, and employ transport managers who understand what compliance looks like.

Third, the solution to the road toll cannot and will not come solely from industry. The community, government, enforcement and road safety bodies must do their part too. Through NTI data, we know that in 93% of fatalities involving a truck, the other party was at fault. Yet national and state road safety strategies are silent on how light vehicle drivers can “share the road” safely with trucks. There is an opportunity to ensure that drivers are educated on driving safely around trucks, such as safe stopping distances and over-taking, as part of licensing schemes.

Fourth, by pulling the right policy levers, government can incentivise and reward safe behaviours from heavy vehicle operators. Discounted registration and stamp duty fees could be offered to operators with sound safety records. Government can also mandate investment in newer, safer more sustainable fleet. Technologies such as autonomous emergency braking systems, lane departure warning systems and electronic stability control can save up to 104 lives per year but are taking too long to become standard in the fleet. The average age of a heavy rigid truck in Australia is 15.7 years. The average age of an articulated truck is 11.9 years. An operator licensing system could stipulate a maximum vehicle age or offer subsidies/incentives to safe operators to deploy these lifesaving technologies.

Fifth, mandate telematics, which includes GPS and black box technology, for all new heavy vehicles. Enforcement of the rules is tough in Australia because of the vast distances between towns. There are not enough police to catch every driver and operator that puts other road users at risk. Mandatory telematics on every vehicle will identify operators that systematically and deliberately speed, overload vehicles and push fatigue limits. Removing operators that refuse to do the right thing protects the community and allows good operators to remain competitive.

Finally, we must ensure that operators such as Toll Group are actively engaged in any debate and policy development pertaining to road safety and heavy vehicles. Any discussion on heavy vehicle regulation must draw on private sector expertise to truly understand how we can overcome the obstacles that are holding us back from creating safer roads for our community.

To recap, I call on the government to make the following six points a priority to affect real improvements in driving the road toll down:

(1) Have one rule book for heavy vehicles and heavy vehicle drivers across the country. No variations, no exceptions. This must cover a standard definition of a heavy vehicle as well as a national approach to: mandatory stationary rest times for heavy vehicle drivers, speed limits for heavy vehicles and a driver licensing system
(2) Introduce a national operator licensing system
(3) Enhance community understanding of how to drive safely around trucks, including through the graduated licensing system and education campaigns
(4) Incentivise and reward safe, modern fleets with life-saving technologies
(5) Make telematics mandatory for regulatory purposes.
(6) Draw on private sector expertise from transport operators in any discussion on improving road safety outcomes pertaining to heavy vehicles

I am sending this letter to all Road and Road Safety Ministers across Australia with the view to driving collaboration across governments. As Australia’s largest provider of road freight logistics, Toll stands ready to work with all governments to make these six points a reality.

In our view, we don’t need any further research, studies and committees. We have immediate, critical opportunities before us today that, when implemented, will save lives. We know what needs to be done. It is time for action.
if the sentence I've highlighted is true, greater regulation of heavy vehicle drivers and operators will have minimal impact on road safety.
If you assume that the proposed measures could be 100% effective -- which in itself is very unlikely -- they would only apply to 7% of fatal crashes involving a heavy vehicle. Which doesn't seem a good return to me.


As I've said previously, road safety is a very complex issue with very emotive outcomes.

[doug3030]

is it only me who sees the inconsistency in this letter and any ensuing conversation.

if the sentence I've highlighted is true, greater regulation of heavy vehicle drivers and operators will have minimal impact on road safety.
If you assume that the proposed measures could be 100% effective -- which in itself is very unlikely -- they would only apply to 7% of fatal crashes involving a heavy vehicle. Which doesn't seem a good return to me.


As I've said previously, road safety is a very complex issue with very emotive outcomes.

Bearing in mind who the author of the letter is, I am guessing that this is the very point that he was trying to make, while at the same time making it known that the transport industry was willing to play a part.

[Dibbers]

is it only me who sees the inconsistency in this letter and any ensuing conversation.

if the sentence I've highlighted is true, greater regulation of heavy vehicle drivers and operators will have minimal impact on road safety.
If you assume that the proposed measures could be 100% effective -- which in itself is very unlikely -- they would only apply to 7% of fatal crashes involving a heavy vehicle. Which doesn't seem a good return to me.


As I've said previously, road safety is a very complex issue with very emotive outcomes.

And point 3 in his manifesto is addressing the other 93%....

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[ian]

And point 3 in his manifesto is addressing the other 93%....I can't see that many light vehicle operators being willing to think and "drive like a truck" -- long braking distance, conserving momentum in rolling terrain, etc.

In my experience "Educating drivers on how to drive safely around trucks, such as safe stopping distances and over-taking..." is code for
in urban areas keep out of a truck's braking zone
after overtaking a truck (or another vehicle) don't cut straight back in and slow down -- although I understand that licencing authorities and the cops "encourage" this behaviour.
it's OK to drive at 90 to 95 km/h on the open road, but when an overtaking lane appears don't speed up to 100 km/h because you suddenly feel more comfortable with the greater width between you and oncoming traffic.
and at the end of an overtaking lane, don't suddenly slow to 85 km/h just because you can. (There's a particular overtaking lane in the southern part of NSW that in my experience is notorious for this behaviour. Most vehicles are doing 100 to 110 towards the end of the lane and about 85 km/h (in a 100 km/h zone) 300 m after the lane ends.)
when overtaking a truck do so quickly -- which in most cases means exceeding the speed limit. I'll leave you to guess how that will go down within the road safety community.


The road freight industry knows that any collision with a heavy vehicle will end badly for the occupants of a car.
I'm told by those in the know that most of the bad practices -- like preying on operators looking for back loads -- have been eradicated.
so apart from the cost implications of establishing a regulatory regime where there are just a few very big transport operators -- having just a handful of very large operators each with the wherewithal to push back against unrealistic delivery schedules may not be a bad thing.

But then again ... the open letter does look a lot like an oportunistic push to mandate an oligopoly.

[elanjacobs]

I can't see that many light vehicle operators being willing to think and "drive like a truck" -- long braking distance, conserving momentum in rolling terrain, etc.

In my experience "Educating drivers on how to drive safely around trucks, such as safe stopping distances and over-taking..." is code for
in urban areas keep out of a truck's braking zone
after overtaking a truck (or another vehicle) don't cut straight back in and slow down -- although I understand that licencing authorities and the cops "encourage" this behaviour.
it's OK to drive at 90 to 95 km/h on the open road, but when an overtaking lane appears don't speed up to 100 km/h because you suddenly feel more comfortable with the greater width between you and oncoming traffic.
and at the end of an overtaking lane, don't suddenly slow to 85 km/h just because you can. (There's a particular overtaking lane in the southern part of NSW that in my experience is notorious for this behaviour. Most vehicles are doing 100 to 110 towards the end of the lane and about 85 km/h (in a 100 km/h zone) 300 m after the lane ends.)
when overtaking a truck do so quickly -- which in most cases means exceeding the speed limit. I'll leave you to guess how that will go down within the road safety community.

Also, every driver should experience being around trucks in a low, small car to get some perspective of just how big they really are. The top of a semi wheel is about eye-level in my car and it's not a pleasant feeling to be around.

[ian]

Also, every driver should experience being around trucks in a low, small car to get some perspective of just how big they really are. The top of a semi wheel is about eye-level in my car and it's not a pleasant feeling to be around.I know exactly what you mean. For nearly 10 years the "family car" was my wife's MX5.

if you want frightening, be standing on the side of a very busy wet 3 lane road running down hill in peak hour when you hear a semi's brakes lock up and the vehicle start to slide

[D.W.]

Probably never.
Why fuss about the road toll when your maternal mortality rate is 35.8 per 100,000 live births (in Victoria it is 8.9 per 100,000 live births) and your infant mortality rate is 5.9 per 1000 live births (in Victoria is about 3.3 per 1000 live births).

When it comes to health issues -- Texas is just backward

I doubt that the infant deaths are equivalently counted (IIRC, the US counts deaths as infant deaths in cases where they're not counted in other countries).

As to the roads, I can't imagine there's anything in victoria equivalent to houston or dallas. re: the population density, there's no good reason to believe that deaths will be proportional to population or population density. I'm sure they wouldn't, but you'd have to study the causes to find out what they are and why. I'd imagine some of it is habit, some of it is illegals driving without licenses, some of it is driving drunk, ...but, I'd bet relatively little is due to the difficulty of the driver's test.

Further north where I live, we have a similar driving situation - a fairly easy permit test, but they will fail you for almost anything on the driver's test. that doesn't make competent drivers, but it does mean either going through a school program or paying for private tutoring to pass the road test is important.

That said, I tracked down a PA report on road deaths (it's from 2014). 1,195 traffic deaths (population 12 million plus a little). 383 were alcohol related (of course, not all of those are due to the alcohol, but a majority would be). Interesting trends from this (PA has a lot of population in cities or metro areas - probably 5MM in Philadelphia, 2.5MM in pittsburgh metro, probably as much in pittsburgh in the other metro CDPs like Harrisburg, Lancaster, etc), a very small share of deaths occurs on interstates here (presumably that term is universal). somewhere around 80% (not going back to check) are on state roads that are not interstate - PA has a lot of those - no margin for error on them.

Accident rate is much higher for youths, but didn't find the death rates for youth vs. older. Distribution of multi-vehicle accidents is more uniform by age (youths get involved in a lot of single-vehicle accidents, probably because they're distracted or just haven't gotten the spatial repetition yet). Somewhere around 40% of the deaths were attributed to excessive speed (not related to driver education - good luck getting people to slow down near cities), and another (can't remember) significant amount due to "illegal turns", which is presumably aggressive turning or turning without looking (which can be a big problem in rural areas where you get conditioned into thinking you don't have to look because there's no traffic).

How does that compare to Victoria? I don't know, but it isn't because "Pennsylvania is Backwards" compared to Victoria. It's probably similar aside from the population density (GDP in PA is marginally higher nominally, but adjusted for purchasing parity, it's about 20% higher).

[D.W.]

Probably never.
Why fuss about the road toll when your maternal mortality rate is 35.8 per 100,000 live births (in Victoria it is 8.9 per 100,000 live births) and your infant mortality rate is 5.9 per 1000 live births (in Victoria is about 3.3 per 1000 live births).

When it comes to health issues -- Texas is just backward

though it's not popular to say, there's a huge difference in infant mortality rate in the US when you parse data by race - same with maternal mortality.

I found the article where your Texas maternal mortality rate came from - it defines a maternal death as occurring within 1 year of child birth. The WHO defines the maternal death rate as death occurring within 42 days (and so does Australia). You do realize that you can't compare the numbers that you gave, right? At all.

If you compare infant mortality rates for Texas vs. Victoria after adjusting out ethnicities that Victoria really doesn't have, then the rate in Texas is about 5 (vs. 3 -not exactly something to write home about).

One thing appears to be true of other countries when it comes to the states. In the old days, we were always criticized as being unaware of what life is actually like in the rest of the world (those of us in the states). It's clear that the rest of the world watches way too much reality TV, and your idea of what it's like to live in the States is pretty far detached from reality. In 41 years here, I have never seen:
* anyone brandish a gun in public (and I live in a city and catch the bus at a stop that also services seedy areas)
* anyone shot
* anyone mugged
* I've never seen a redneck riding through town in the back of a pickup truck
* I've never seen anyone turned away from a hospital Emergency room (though I've seen plenty of people in them who were definitely not going to pay - and watched a guy leave in front of me the last time I was in the ER - he had a wallet full of cash, no insurance, and he refused to pay for his services. They could do anything, they have to serve him and can't make him pay).

This list could be 100 points long.

(I have had racial slurs hurled at me while waiting for the bus, but I'm white as a sheet - you can guess what they were).

[doug3030]

We seem to have gotten away from the thread topic of the road toll a bit here.

Recently on the radio (3AW) there has been some debate about the requirements for driving in Victoria.

Apparently, anyone who visits Victoria on a tourist visa and has a drivers license in another country is able to drive on that license for up to six months.

They do not have to prove any knowledge of Victorian road rules. All they need is a document which is a translation of their foreign license into English.

Apparently rental car companies are supposed to show them a video explaining the road rules in their own language before renting them a car but the radio station phoned several rental car companies and nobody shows the videos.

They did say that they were trying to get some data on how many accidents/fatalities were able to be linked to these foreign drivers but if the answer was found I was not listening at the time.

It was also stated that immigrants who had a drivers license in their country of origin (or any other country I think) are given an Australian license without having to undergo any testing.

Regardless of the standard of license testing for everyone else, including logbook hours for young learners and P plates, the standard for drivers in Victoria is therefore by default - equal to the lowest in the world.

They would give out a license to a tourist or immigrant from a country with the lowest standard so that becomes the standard.

[BobL]

Apparently, anyone who visits Victoria on a tourist visa and has a drivers license in another country is able to drive on that license for up to six months.
In WA the period is for as long as the overseas licence is valid - no, they cannot just renew their Overseas licence although many do this and I wonder about this .


They do not have to prove any knowledge of Victorian road rules. All they need is a document which is a translation of their foreign license into English
Correct .


They did say that they were trying to get some data on how many accidents/fatalities were able to be linked to these foreign drivers but if the answer was found I was not listening at the time.
The bloke that ran head on into me while texting was an overseas student with an out of date overseas licence. He also purchased insurance the day after the claim and changed the date on his accident report and wanted me to do the same - I just hung up on him.


It was also stated that immigrants who had a drivers license in their country of origin (or any other country I think) are given an Australian license without having to undergo any testing.
In WA, apart from NZ and a few recognised countries, all others have to take the standard road rules theory exam.
It depends on the class of licence. Only folks from NZ and a few recognised countries get an exemption from the car practical test. Folks from all other countries have to pass the standard car driving test. All countries (inc NZ) have to pass the MC and HR class practical test

[ian]

We seem to have gotten away from the thread topic of the road toll a bit here.

Recently on the radio (3AW) there has been some debate about the requirements for driving in Victoria.

Apparently, anyone who visits Victoria on a tourist visa and has a drivers license in another country is able to drive on that license for up to six months.

They do not have to prove any knowledge of Victorian road rules. All they need is a document which is a translation of their foreign license into English.
the same is true for visitors from other states.
And I'm not just referring to Melbourne's infamous (?) box turns.

U-Turn at traffic signals is legal in Victoria and illegal in NSW.

BUT, most rules of the road are pretty common.
1. drive so that the vehicle is one side of the center of the road with the driver's position closest to the center of the road.
2. stop at red lights
3. stop at stop signs, or at least be going slow enough that you can stop in a metre or so.
4. stop at railway crossings
5. give way at give way signs
6. take the most aggressive option at a roundabout.
7. give way to pedestrians -- but only when you feel like it.
8. only conform to the speed limit when you think you may get caught.
9. don't use your mobile and drive -- an optional action. In NSW, you can be done for "mobile use while driving" if you are stopped, the handbrake is on, and the engine is running. The logic escapes me.
10. rules on parking. Who really cares, in NSW, at least, the "rules" are manipulated to generate revenue for the local Council.


But, as far as I am aware, "non-resident alien" drivers are no more likely to be involved in a serious or fatal crash than "resident aliens" or citizens.



BTW
I've read / heard a few stories on the ABC about immigrants from Syria and Iraq and the like having to re-learn to drive before sitting Australian driver's tests. Apparently, where they come from looking out for snipers is more important than looking at where you are going.

[ian]

Probably never.
Why fuss about the road toll when your maternal mortality rate is 35.8 per 100,000 live births (in Victoria it is 8.9 per 100,000 live births) and your infant mortality rate is 5.9 per 1000 live births (in Victoria is about 3.3 per 1000 live births).
though it's not popular to say, there's a huge difference in infant mortality rate in the US when you parse data by race - same with maternal mortality.

I found the article where your Texas maternal mortality rate came from - it defines a maternal death as occurring within 1 year of child birth. The WHO defines the maternal death rate as death occurring within 42 days (and so does Australia). You do realize that you can't compare the numbers that you gave, right? At all.

If you compare infant mortality rates for Texas vs. Victoria after adjusting out ethnicities that Victoria really doesn't have, then the rate in Texas is about 5 (vs. 3 -not exactly something to write home about).
I'm not sure I want to go where this is heading. Parsing the data by race implies that maternal death rates are strongly correlated with race -- something I had not heard asserted anywhere before.

But to your point about inconsistency in definition. In Victoria the female death rate, all causes, is about 20 per 100,000 for women through their child bearing years. Because women who have many (10+) closely spaced children are very rare, even, I would imagine, in Texas, the numbers are still comparable even allowing for the difference in definition. Extending the maternal mortality definition to one year, would at worst increase the Victorian rate to somewhere betrween 6 and 7 per 100,000 live births.

[ian]

I tracked down a PA report on road deaths (it's from 2014). 1,195 traffic deaths (population 12 million plus a little). 383 were alcohol related (of course, not all of those are due to the alcohol, but a majority would be). Interesting trends from this (PA has a lot of population in cities or metro areas - probably 5MM in Philadelphia, 2.5MM in pittsburgh metro, probably as much in pittsburgh in the other metro CDPs like Harrisburg, Lancaster, etc), a very small share of deaths occurs on interstates here (presumably that term is universal). somewhere around 80% (not going back to check) are on state roads that are not interstate - PA has a lot of those - no margin for error on them. interstates tend to be built to higher standards, are grade separated -- no intersections or property entrances -- and are generally more "forgiving" when a vehicle leaves the carriageway.

state roads tend to be two, three or four lane undivided, where a vehicle crossing the center line has a relatively high probability of being involved in a head-on crash.
Sweden in their Vision Zero recognise this and plan to install a wire or other divider on all two way roads that have a speed limit greater than 70 km/h (about 42 mph).


Accident rate is much higher for youths, but didn't find the death rates for youth vs. older. The Australian evidence is that youths are still very much learning to drive when the pass their driving test. Data I've seen suggests that prior to graduated licencing, after passing the driving test it took the typical young driver 2 to 3 years to become really competent to drive under all conditions, especially in respect to the skills -- like overtaking, merging and changing lanes on freeways -- that are not taught to learners.
Distribution of multi-vehicle accidents is more uniform by age (youths get involved in a lot of single-vehicle accidents, probably because they're distracted or just haven't gotten the spatial repetition yet). As I noted above, the typical young driver is still learning when they get their licence. They also tend to be very socially active and driving late at night or early in the morning when most older folk are in their beds.
Somewhere around 40% of the deaths were attributed to excessive speed (not related to driver education - good luck getting people to slow down near cities), this is a good one to confuse the issue. There is a strong correlation between speed and severity of injury. So in many minds "excessive speed" is the cause of a crash -- when in reality speed is the just major contributor to the severity of injury suffered in the crash. For example, a crash involving a vehicle running off a straight road can be coded fatigue related (= driver fell asleep at the wheel) or excessive speed. The same crash (driver asleep at the wheel) on a curve is invariably coded "excessive speed" because the vehicle didn't make the curve.
and another (can't remember) significant amount due to "illegal turns", which is presumably aggressive turning or turning without looking (which can be a big problem in rural areas where you get conditioned into thinking you don't have to look because there's no traffic). in Australia an "illegal turn" is not an "aggressive" turn. It's a turn against a red light, a turn against a no left turn sign, a turn against a no right turn on red sign (you have those in PA?) where the turning vehicle gets T-boned or collects a pedestrian or cyclist. Rarely is it a turn without looking. In urban areas, "illegal turns" are often associated with "red light running" which is a symptom of impatience rather than aggression.

[BobL]

I've read / heard a few stories on the ABC about immigrants from Syria and Iraq and the like having to re-learn to drive before sitting Australian driver's tests. Apparently, where they come from looking out for snipers is more important than looking at where you are going.

In PNG you NEVER stop at ANY lights. If its yellow or just gone red you keep going. If there are cars ahead that are stopped you slow down but time your run so the car keep moving as much as possible - this is to avoid car jacking. Also they tend to travel in convoys where they can especially to cross dangerous areas.


don't use your mobile and drive -- an optional action. In NSW, you can be done for "mobile use while driving" if you are stopped, the handbrake is on, and the engine is running. The logic escapes me.

Its not that hard to understand why they do this , its to prevent people from using mobiles at traffic lights or at intersections, as well as stopping IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD to answer their phone.

[ian]

what gets me is last time I looked, you could
play with an iPod or iPad
play with a hand held GPS
use your laptop
read the paper or a magazine or book
eat
drink (as long as the drink is non alcoholic)

all while driving.
It's just phones that are verboten.

and while hands' free phones use is "legal" the concentration required to follow a conversation is just as distracting as playing with the contact list to make a call.

go figure

[BobL]

In WA iPods, Ipads and laptops etc are covered by the non essential VDU rule.


driver shall not drive a motor vehicle that has a television receiver or visual display unit in or on the vehicle operating while the vehicle is moving, or is stationary but not parked, if any part of the image on the screen — (a) is visible to the driver from the normal driving position;
or
(b) is likely to distract another driver.

Not even your passengers should use an iPad etc if the driver can see the screen.
Holding an iPad up to a vehicle window so that another driver can see the screen is also an office. I wonder who gets charged?

Some VDUs like, despatch devices, vehicle monitoring system, GPS and displays integrated into the vehicles display are exempt.
Device MUST be fixed to the vehicle.

Ipads and computers with coms sim cards are deemed mobile phones

GPS cannot be touched while driving.

[ian]

GPS cannot be touched while driving.so that's why the hands free phones and GPS in Beamers, Audis, Mercs and Volvos are controlled by knobs and buttons on the centre console.

[Dibbers]

while i agree with the ban on the use of mobiles etc while driving, there are so many other distractions that go unchecked.

For 1, the amount of times i constantly have to check my speedo because on a 1km stretch of road the speed limit changes 3 or 4 times is ridiculous. Also, School zones. I agree with them in principle. however on a main arterial road, where the footpath is fenced and a pedestrian bridge is provided to cross the street, i don't think there should be a school zone present. It creates a traffic jam, with people getting frustrated and constantly looking at their speedo to ensure they aren't going faster than 40km/h (except for the occassional nutjob).

School Zones are a good thing in general, but i don't think there should be a blanket rule that all schools have one if the above conditions are present.

[A Duke]

Hi,
Bring back the guy running in front with a red flag.