Abandoned rail lines - Questions

[dazzler]

Howdy

Last weekend I took a ride on the bike from Lismore over to Tenterfield, Glen Innes and down to Grafton and back home. I was mesmerised by the number of abandoned rail lines just off the road.

Which got me to pondering.

Who owns the land the rails are on now that they are not used?
Can I walk along them?
Could I ride along them?
Could I make a light weight trolley car with a pushbike or electric motor to power it and ride along them, portaging where the rails are out or blocked?
Some googling shows they do this in the USA, or did at least until Hitler 2.0 took over, but nothing here.

When I lived in Tassie I mountain biked the old highway through the midlands that had been closed for 20yrs. Heaps of fun.

Thoughts, experiences?

cheers

Daz

[crowie]

Possibly still government owner...

[dazzler]

Possibly still government owner...

Woohoo - Crowie says its crown land.

Off to the shed to start building - LOL

Thanks

[Big Shed]

In Victoria quite a few of these old railways have been turned in to bike trails.

Here is one that is 56km long

https://www.railtrails.org.au/index.php?option=com_railtrails&view=trail&id=145&Itemid=213

There is another one from Bendigo to Axedale which I have done quite a few times

https://www.railtrails.org.au/index.php?option=com_railtrails&view=trail&id=100&Itemid=213

[DaveVman]

The following are official rail trails for recreation:
Wolgan Valley
- Hartley Vale
- Lapstone Zig Zag
- Toronto line
- Belmont line
- Bargo to Nepean Dam
- Colo Vale to Hill Top
- Welby to Box Vale
- Burrunjuck Tramway

There may be others.
Apparently it takes an act of parliament to close a rail line. Until that happens it is considered a rail corridor and it is an offence to enter a rail corridor without access permission. Access permission normally requires a mountain of requirements. You wouldn't believe the inefficient outdated mountain of red tape required. But I digress because this is obviously not enforced on closed lines.
A word of warning. The railways are generally anally retentive about this topic . If you go on these lines without following the regulations then you make it harder for other groups who are also trying to get recreational access.
I suggest you start by calling the ARTC to inquire who owns that particular corridor and who to talk to about access. If you follow the correct process you will probably be granted permission.
However I would be selective what you tell them you want to do on the old track. The chances of them agreeing to you using a home made trolley car are worse than me winning lotto. And I don't buy lotto tickets.
I hope I'm proved wrong but I work with active railway companies every day and safety is first, second and third priorities. Kinda hard to get them to move out of that mindset. However the good news is that plenty of like minded people also see the recreational opportunities so perhaps there is a lobby group you can join.

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[Chris Parks]

Pulling up an abandoned railway line....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l9sYz5EVGI

[ozka]

Expected this to be about getting on to some of that lovely railway sleeper.

[Handyjack]

As has been mentioned, different lines may have different owners.
Sometimes the land has been sold to adjoining properties.
I have read about people building vehicles to travel on disused lines. Some of the problems they have come across include wire fences placed across the line. And that is not to mention missing rails, bridges (or culverts) and undergrowth growing over the track (and this can include reasonable size trees and blackberry bushes).

Proceed with extreme caution.

[elanjacobs]

You should be able to get an idea of any major blockages/missing bits as well as where the tracks go from the satellite layer on google maps

[rrich]

We have a few abandoned rail lines nearby. The land is not worth much except to the adjacent land owners. My UPS delivery guy owns a home that backs up to the abandoned tracks. I told him to get out there with his patio furniture and basically claim the land. In ten years or so he'll get the land almost for free but have to pay property taxes for the land. :) DUNNO, 10 years will tell.

When they were ripping out the rails nearby, I considered getting about 4M of one of the rails. I had a Ford F-250 at the time that needed weight in the bed or rear bumper. My thought was to make the rail as part of the rear bumper. The problem was that I could cut the rail, there was nobody nearby that could weld the rail. The weight inside the bumper with leverage would have been less than what would be needed in the bed of the truck.

[dazzler]

Thanks all for the input.

I had a bit to do with enabling access to an old tram line when I was with council and yeah, gaining access was a huge task.

The main problem I see, and alluded to here, is gaining formal permission. I seriously doubt that would ever happen for a sole person wanting to go exploring - WHS and risk management would kill it.

So I suppose it would be down to how you would go about it in the most stealthy mode but that the most you will get is "get off my land ^*^*^*&^*^*&". Not overly worried about being prosecuted for trespass. Basically if there is no trespassing sign then I wouldnt use that bit. But no sign - game on.

That would rule out an engine for obvious reasons. A mountain bike that can somehow ride on the rail and stay on would be cool. Two connected would probably work. At least that way it seems like you are just a bike rider that got lost - LOL.

cheers

Will post if I do it. From here or prison. :D

[clear out]

Be a neat project.
A side car or just a wheel for the other track.
Turn up some wooden flanged wheels.
An electric bike would help but the gradients would be no probs if your fit.
H.

[DaveVman]

Be a neat project.
A side car or just a wheel for the other track.
Turn up some wooden flanged wheels.
An electric bike would help but the gradients would be no probs if your fit.
H.
I was picturing a motorbike with smaller steel wheels on bars that fold down like trainer wheels to keep the 2 rubber tyres on the track.

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[BobL]

Trains on the track - no worries.

https://youtu.be/d0G1FiyZRq8

[dazzler]

Choo choo


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[Bohdan]

Thanks all for the input.

The main problem I see, and alluded to here, is gaining formal permission. I seriously doubt that would ever happen for a sole person wanting to go exploring - WHS and risk management would kill it.



"It is easier to be forgiven than to get permission"

[joe greiner]

Be a neat project.
A side car or just a wheel for the other track.
Turn up some wooden flanged wheels.
An electric bike would help but the gradients would be no probs if your fit.
H.
Gradients shouldn't be a problem even if you're not fit. Railroads usually have maximum grade of about 2 percent.

Cheers,
Joe

[Handyjack]

With regards to gradients, I have never worked out how the percent works.
In Australia, Main lines might have a gradient of 1 in 50, branch lines as steep as 1 in 30. (1 metre rise for every 30 traveled.) Occasionally it might be as much as 1 in 25. While going up on rails may not pose too many problems, consider how you are going to stop/slow down, going down grade. I can tell you rail vehicles roll very well down grade.

[elver]

As someone who's worked on the bits that join those lines, the issue would be unsafe bridges. Lots of unsafe bridges. Lismore to Byron's not been maintained for 10 plus years.. just go for a little walk up track from Sth Lismore to see. The bridges have no floor other than sleepers. When sleepers rot out there are some mighty big drops. Don't forget the timbers below too. Actually, it's the timbers that aren't below..!

[dazzler]

Thanks all.


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[crowie]

Just talking gradients - I've heard it said that the track from Valley Heights to Linden on the Lower Blue Mountains is the longest continuous steepest gradient in Australia??.

[joe greiner]

With regards to gradients, I have never worked out how the percent works.
In Australia, Main lines might have a gradient of 1 in 50, branch lines as steep as 1 in 30. (1 metre rise for every 30 traveled.) Occasionally it might be as much as 1 in 25. While going up on rails may not pose too many problems, consider how you are going to stop/slow down, going down grade. I can tell you rail vehicles roll very well down grade.

Gradient is simply rise divided by run. 1 in 50 = 2 in 100, or 2 percent; 1 in 30 = 3.33 in 100, or 3.33 percent; and 1 in 25 = 4 in 100, or 4 percent. Under disabilty access guidelines, maximum pedestrian grade is 5 percent, subject to intermittent level reaches.

Last night (Wednesday here), pbs' NOVA reported on train crashes, including a disaster in Quebec ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lac-M%C3%A9gantic_rail_disaster ), owing to a runaway train improperly parked on a 1.2 percent grade.

Cheers,
Joe

[Chris Parks]

Just talking gradients - I've heard it said that the track from Valley Heights to Linden on the Lower Blue Mountains is the longest continuous steepest gradient in Australia??.

I don't know but I remember well going to Lawson on a steam train and they had to double head it before going up the hill from Penrith.

[ian]

Gradients shouldn't be a problem even if you're not fit. Railroads usually have maximum grade of about 2 percent.

Cheers,
Joe


With regards to gradients, I have never worked out how the percent works.
In Australia, Main lines might have a gradient of 1 in 50, branch lines as steep as 1 in 30. (1 metre rise for every 30 traveled.) Occasionally it might be as much as 1 in 25.
a grade of 2% equates to a 2 m rise in 100m.
new main lines are typically constructed with a maximum grade of 1.25%, which if I'm remembering correctly is equivalent to 1 in 80.
Many of the main lines in NSW -- Main West, Main south, North Cost -- have maximum grades of 1 in 30, which is a little steeper than 3%.
the steepest direct adhesion line I know of is the Bernina Pass in Switzerland at 7%.
(rack and cable railways are steeper, but the Bernina is direct adhesion.)

[Boringgeoff]

There is a very good rail tour in NZ we've been on using modified golf buggies and now they've introduced pedal power. https://forgottenworldadventures.co.nz
In the early 70's on the Hamersley Iron line in the Pilbara a bloke was loading a rake of unattended ballast cars up near Tom Price, as he needed to move them he would push them along with his front end loader. He must have given them a bit too much push and they took off out of the siding and down the main line heading for Dampier. They had travelled 50 or 60 odd miles before the attempt was made to pick them up on the rear of a loaded ore train. As well as loaded ore cars the train had tacked on the end a goods train comprising some empty fuel tankers and flat tops these bore the brunt of the ballast wagons sailing up their a***e at an estimated 80 mph. As I recall, the wreckage on the side of the road was all the ballast cars, all the tankers and flat tops and a few ore cars.

[AlexS]

As a toddler in Mt. Mulligan, Qld., I remember that occasionally cable-hauled coal trucks used to break free and head off down the line towards the train loader. We'd hear the siren from the mine, and watch from the back verandah as the coal truck went screaming past, to be derailed a little further down the line.

[Handyjack]

I have just spent the day operating one of these.
This type is only suitable for narrow gauge though. (In this case 762mm.) As you can see they can be operated both on rail and off. Can be transported on a trailer or truck. Maximum speed 15 miles per hour. Seat two only.
The unit was imported from the USA and had the rail gear fitted here.

[ian]

back to the original questions
Who owns the land the disused rails are on now that they are not used? -- usually, in NSW at least, the land is still vested in the rump of what was once the State Rail Authority. Somewhere on the Transport for NSW web site will be a link to the actual name of the "unit" who manage the land. But in broad terms, there are

the lines leased to the ARTC -- mostly the main interstate lines -- where ARTC is the line manager, but the NSW government remains the land owner. These lines are:

North Coast, Newcastle to the NSW-Qld state border
Sydney-Melbourne (Macarthur to Melbourne via Albury)
Hunter Valley "coal lines" (which includes Scone to Moree and North Star via Werris Creek and Muswellbrook to Gulgong),
Moss Vale to Port Kembla,
Cootamundra to Werris Creek via Stockinbingal, Forbes, Parkes, Paek Hill, Narromine, Dubbo, Tro Junction, Merrygoen, Binnaway and Premer.
Parkes to Broken Hill -- Broken Hill to the NSW-SA border was a Commonwealth line


active NSW lines managed by John Holland Rail on behalf of the NSW State Government

Goulburn to Canberra.
Stockinbingal to Junee via Temorra, Griffith, Leeton, Narrandarah and Grong Grong.
Lithgow to Dubbo.
Orange to Parkes.
Narromine to Cobar.
Werris Creek to Armidale.
and the "active wheat lines". Sometimes it's very hard to tell if a line is "inactive" or an "active wheat line".


The Sydney Metro "electrified network" -- Newcastle to Nowra and west to Lithgow. Basically where Sydney's suburban trains run.


private lines -- mostly in the Illawarra and Hunter Valley -- which originally were constructed to access a coal mine. Some of these are managed by ARTC.


inactive lines -- which sort of describes most of the rest of the original network. Parts of some of these lines are leased to private operators. e.g. around Cooma. And some no longer have any rails, but some -- like the Cowra Branch lines -- have active lobby groups seeking to reopen the line who will see any intrusion by walkers or push bike riders as a sign the line will never reopen.


abandoned lines -- of which there are very few.


Can I walk along them? -- yes, but the adjacent property owners often think of the line as being part of their property.

Could I ride along them? -- yes, but see walking.

Could I make a light weight trolley car with a pushbike or electric motor to power it and ride along them, portaging where the rails are out or blocked? -- yes, but doing so would classify you as a "rail operator" which is a hugely expensive exercise you don't want to become involved with.

[bsrlee]

Just for day dreaming purposes, do a search on cycles and the Boer War - several cycles were converted into rail patrol vehicles with modified rims and an outrigger, can't remember where I found the pictures. Somewhere I have a very amusing engraving of a snooty Russian Officer doing an inspection review on the Trans Siberian Railway, he is mounted on a purpose made rail cycle with small solid wheels and again a single outrigger wheel.

[a7el]

Australian trolley group assco.com.au currently only running in Queensland. Other group not running called motorcar consortium that has ex-assco members that split off. North American equivalent is narcoa.com
ASSCO obtain legal access to tracks, you dont need a trolley to come along you can just be a passenger on someone's trolley.

[crowie]

Australian trolley group assco.com.au currently only running in Queensland. Other group not running called motorcar consortium that has ex-assco members that split off. North American equivalent is narcoa.com
ASSCO obtain legal access to tracks, you dont need a trolley to come along you can just be a passenger on someone's trolley.

G'Day & Welcome to a top forum sir.............
Thanks for the great website links