LOL Census...they said it wouldn't happen!

[Kuffy]

I tried to goto the census site to do that thing......

HAHAHAHAHA LMAO!!!!!

I heard on the radio this morning about claims that the organisers have made sure the servers can handle the burst of traffic this evening....

Census 2016: Census, ABS websites down (http://www.news.com.au/national/frustration-as-abs-census-website-unable-to-be-reached/news-story/298363b96a4feab132698075cec306b2)

[Handyjack]

Yes, happened to me. Spent 30 minutes doing it then could not submit, could not save. The phone line is experiencing a busy time, ring latter. Not.

Are we surprised?!

[A Duke]

Hi,
Me too. :?
:roflmao:
Regards

[Opelblues2]

me too

[yvan]

Well, I have more time to browse the forum tonight :D!!!

[doug3030]

Four out of five people in this household have completed the form and saved it. Person 5 came home, we could not retrieve the saved form to complete it. Message on screen says try again in 15 minutes. Maybe tomorrow...

Hopeless.

Cheers

Doug

[elanjacobs]

At least they're not fining us for late submissions

[fenderbelly]

Should I list my imaginary friends or not.:U

[doug3030]

Should I list my imaginary friends or not.:U

Since you acknowledge that they are imaginary I would say not. If you did not know that they were imaginary, then you would be required to include them.

[KBs PensNmore]

I tried to goto the census site to do that thing......

HAHAHAHAHA LMAO!!!!!

I heard on the radio this morning about claims that the organisers have made sure the servers can handle the burst of traffic this evening....

Census 2016: Census, ABS websites down (http://www.news.com.au/national/frustration-as-abs-census-website-unable-to-be-reached/news-story/298363b96a4feab132698075cec306b2)

Are these the same people who said it is a very secure website:?

[ian]

Yes, happened to me. Spent 30 minutes doing it then could not submit, could not save. The phone line is experiencing a busy time, ring latter. Not.

Are we surprised?!
no

get ready for the "you can log on any time over the next week and enter your responses"



I wonder how many won't bother to make a second attempt

[Ironwood]

I could see it happening, so I just filled out the paper form they delivered to my house.

[Yanis]

They had four DDOS attacks. The problem with this type of thing is that DDOS a tacks are impossible to guard against. They say it was from overseas.

John

[Yanis]

Oh, and I tried myself and as soon as got the busy signal I immediately thought "DDOS attack I suppose".

Any high profile attempt at an online service such as this would naturally attract a lot of attention from hackers.

I work in the industry and it is a constant fear. It does not mean a lack of professionalism on their part.

John

[Boringgeoff]

Last night, with trepidation, I approached the computer to fill in the form online until Ms BG said "why don't we just fill in the paper form that I found sitting on the front door step?" Oh joy, oh the relief! 10 minutes later, all done and going into the PO this morning. I'd put a smilie here but I don't believe in them.
Cheers,
Geoff.

[Tahlee]

The sky is falling .....

NO it isn't ....

I am listening to the radio this morning and I am ashamed of the attitudes of a few who are doomsayers ... For goodness sake my credit union knows more about me than the census will ever do .... they see my income arrive each month .. know what I spend it on ... where I live .. my phone, my email, my mother's maiden name, my DOB ... etc. Do i TRUST THE GOVERNMENT MORE THAN THE LOCAL CREDIT UNION ... MY WORD i DO.

And while I am on this rant let me express my appreciation to those many staff of the ABS who have spent years on the census project .. all of those staff deserve some level of respect and support ..... How very traumatic for them and their families ...

Lets be Aussies and support the workers .... their health and well-being is important too

Regards

Rob

[Chesand]

I did ours on Monday - no problems, straight through.

If you have a passport and lodge tax returns, they know far more than was required on the Census.

[nyamo_iaint]

I was a bit surprised actually. I did the online version 5 years ago and thought that it was really well done - no obvious delays or clunkiness. Similarly the myTax experience was the same for me.

Perhaps my relatively youthful lack of cynicism made me think it would be OK this time. Or perhaps it was that this time they used a cloud service provider, whereas I thought last time the ABS hosted it themselves.

Iain

[Bendigo Bob]

I got in early :) Pretty quick to do, so happy it's over.

[Poppa]

DDOS attacks can be planned for in advance. I've implemented DDOS protection systems. While they can protect the data on a site from being accessed, and servers on a site from being overloaded and crashing, DDOS protection mechanisms typically redirect network traffic through "cleansers" so that the attacking transactions can be removed and the proper traffic allowed to pass through to the site. There are a number of DDOS vendors that provide solutions. In the absence of a DDOS protection mechanism, a DDOS attack causes a website to crash due to an overload in traffic. There should have been a DDOS protection mechanism implemented for the census site (and indeed for the entire federal government network - or the separate networks that they have deployed). If there was and it was just overwhelmed, then that is actually fair enough. It is impossible to plan for every eventuality, even though that should be the objective. However, if there wasn't a DDOS system implemented, or it wasn't tested thoroughly, then that lack can and should be laid directly at the customers who didn't insist on it (the government department) or the vendor who didn't implement it or test it properly (IBM). It would be interesting to know the actual situation.

Oh, and as an experienced IT person with many years experience, I did my census on paper... :U

[ironik]

Probably not a large scale DDOS - https://twitter.com/mhackling/status/763122057307525120/photo/1 (some interesting comments in there too)

Mixed messages coming out, some quotes say "4 DOS attacks" some say "4 hacking attempts". My bet is that the real issue is this: https://twitter.com/pihao/status/762987258399956992

[China]

Census is just a sham it has been redundent for years

[Bob38S]

'Nuff said.

[cava]

Spoke to several people today about the census, and not one single person filled it in.

Not because of internet issues, but deliberate refusal to fill it in.

[elanjacobs]

Spoke to several people today about the census, and not one single person filled it in.

Not because of internet issues, but deliberate refusal to fill it in.
Well, I guess someone has to top up the budget...

[Tahlee]

Spoke to several people today about the census, and not one single person filled it in.

Not because of internet issues, but deliberate refusal to fill it in.

So when the local hospital doesn't get growth funding, your local council misses out in aged and disability care funding, there is inadequate planning for schools, police and other sevices ...... you will know why.

How un-Australian ... and anti-social

There .. I had my beef

[cava]

So when the local hospital doesn't get growth funding, your local council misses out in aged and disability care funding, there is inadequate planning for schools, police and other sevices ...... you will know why.

How un-Australian ... and anti-social... and anti-nanny state

There .. I had my beef

Fixed it for you.

Personally I applaud them.

As an example I am old enough to have gone through the Melbourne water crisis' a few decades ago because, it was said at the time, Melbourne was expanding at a greater rate than the water supply provisions. Knowing this, from the previous ABS census', the government of the day still refused to plan for the future with water security.

Do you think it will be any different once the information from this years census is analysed?

[cava]

Well, I guess someone has to top up the budget...

Not if you know the Law. :wink:

[Christos]

We are an online community, we should be able to fill this out and be done with it. Not that there is anything wrong with not using an online option.

[ian]

So when the local hospital doesn't get growth funding, your local council misses out in aged and disability care funding, there is inadequate planning for schools, police and other sevices ...... you will know why.

having working inside the bureaucracy, I wish this were true. Those who think Utopia is fiction are blissfully unaware of how these decisions are really made.

as one senior infrastructure minister put it -- "I don't need a plan, I know where [the votes] are needed!"

[doug3030]

Either they are incompetent, we are being lied to, or this is all a giant smoke screen.

Census. My left cheek.

A Con-Census maybe? :rolleyes:

[KBs PensNmore]

They know all. Apparently. Or don't they? Either they are incompetent, we are being lied to, or this is all a giant smoke screen.

Census. My left cheek.



Personally, I agree with what you are saying, census is just a way of confirming what they know. Bit like stock taking in a business.
By the way, it's not "my left cheek", its "Bacon" (Pigs A.....) !!!

[Tahlee]

having working inside the bureaucracy, I wish this were true. Those who think Utopia is fiction are blissfully unaware of how these decisions are really made.

as one senior infrastructure minister put it -- "I don't need a plan, I know where [the votes] are needed!"

Hi Ian,
As you have worked within the bureaucracy you would be fully aware of the Census alone based SEIFA index ..... and its extensive application in the assessment of needs based funding applications by all levels of government ... also in its use in commercial decision making for capital investments.

Moreover, the Tax Sharing Arrangements / Financial Assistance Grants are primarily based on population (Census bases) and the Fiscal Equalisation Grants and Local Government Financial Assistance Grants are both are heavily influenced by the SEIFA index outcomes.

Ministers may make determinations based on lobby groups ... this is not always evidence based ... but determinations based on Census data is and this is where the big money is.

If people don't complete the Census (for whatever reason) then they are disadvantaging their State and community ... and this is not really a community benefiting thing to do.


Regards

Rob

[Kuffy]

Well I finally got to do my part for the country's data collection. Now they know that they have a 35yr old bloke living alone which needs no assistance from others, and gives no assistance to others freely ;)

And if you stick around for 99 years, you can view all of my top secret answers and steal my identity.

[FenceFurniture]

How un-Australian ... and anti-socialOn the contrary - very typically Australian to flip the bird when the Govt (or anyone else) is doing a lousy sell job of a patently obvious unfolding fiasco. I see it as becoming one of those situations down the track - "oh, sorry, the data got out - well, what data we have".

I did mine on paper but they won't know who I am - can't for the life of me see why they need to anyway, and totally apart from the four year thing and the obvious data protection concerns (paper or not).

[Kuffy]

I did mine on paper but they won't know who I am - can't for the life of me see why they need to anyway

I figure they need to know who you are, just the same for elections. So they know who not to fine for non-particpation. I realise that they probably wont fine many people anyways. but as the online thing becomes more and more dominant, it will be an easy thing to fine 10,000s of people by clicking a button, just like speed cameras.

[Handyjack]

If you return something, it should not be possible to fine you as the information is supposed to be confidential.
Half the information should be available from the Tax Office anyway.

[ian]

Hi Ian,
As you have worked within the bureaucracy you would be fully aware of the Census alone based SEIFA index ..... and its extensive application in the assessment of needs based funding applications by all levels of government ... also in its use in commercial decision making for capital investments.

Moreover, the Tax Sharing Arrangements / Financial Assistance Grants are primarily based on population (Census bases) and the Fiscal Equalisation Grants and Local Government Financial Assistance Grants are both are heavily influenced by the SEIFA index outcomes.

Ministers may make determinations based on lobby groups ... this is not always evidence based ... but determinations based on Census data is and this is where the big money is.

If people don't complete the Census (for whatever reason) then they are disadvantaging their State and community ... and this is not really a community benefiting thing to do.


Regards

RobHi Rob
I worked in infrastructure, not health or social services.

We spent much of our time backing up our minister's political decisions as to project priorities and, where the Commonwealth minister's project priorities differed, providing evidence as to why our minister was "right" and the other bloke "wrong".

At one time I even worked on a paper explaining why the SEIFA funding allocation, based as you say on Census data, was an inappropriate basis for distributing infrastructure funding.

[ian]

I figure they need to know who you are, just the same for elections. So they know who not to fine for non-particpation. I realise that they probably wont fine many people anyways. but as the online thing becomes more and more dominant, it will be an easy thing to fine 10,000s of people by clicking a button, just like speed cameras.The form I completed (and I guess all census forms) is tied to an address.
The person completing the form "volunteers" who they are, and at the end of the form "certifies" that the information provided is true and complete.

Without matching the supplied data to the identity and address of the person supplying it, I'm not sure how the ABS can identify who has or hasn't completed the form.

However, what I found disturbing was that the form I completed had no provision to list a person as retired.
You could be employed, employed but on holiday/ stood down/ on strike, unemployed and looking for work, or unemployed not looking for work. There was no provision to nominate "retired" (i.e. have left the workforce) or to identify as a "pensioner".
Likewise, if you were under about 20, the assumption seemed to be that you would be in education. I don't recall if a person could record not in education not in employment.

[doug3030]

Just now, two full days after census night we were for the first time since the crash, able to log in to the census website so that person 5 could complete and submit the form. Well there may have been some savings but I think they are claiming too much.

On submitting the webform for the household, Person 5 was asked if we wanted a receipt. well after all the fuss and bother I said "yes, print one out so we have a record we did it just in case anything goes wrong."

THe full text of the receipt was:

"Thank you
Your form has been submitted
Receipt number
xxxxxxxxxxxx"


Two pages came out of the printer for the sake of four lines of text taking up an inch of paper.

So, it wasted a page. Big deal, The government did not have to pay for it - we did. No real cost financially to each person, but multiply it by a few million and there goes a big part of the forest they claim to have saved.

All because of sloppy computer programming.

Cheers

Doug

[Lappa]

Now speaking theoretically, if they need my name to tie to an address etc for whatever reason, and I don't supply it, then theoretically they wouldn't know who to issue the fine to. However, if they know who to issue the fine to and where to send the fine. they didn't need the information in the first place:cool:

[doug3030]

The form I completed (and I guess all census forms) is tied to an address.
The person completing the form "volunteers" who they are, and at the end of the form "certifies" that the information provided is true and complete.

Without matching the supplied data to the identity and address of the person supplying it, I'm not sure how the ABS can identify who has or hasn't completed the form.

As I understand it, forms or logins are allocated to an address, not an individual. If the census is not completed for a given address, how do they decide who at that address to fine? Everyone? The head of the family - if so how is that legally defined? What about a shared house?

If no census data is received for a particular address, what if nobody was at home on the designated night?

It would be impossible to make a fine stick if anyone decided to contest it and had half a brain


However, what I found disturbing was that the form I completed had no provision to list a person as retired.

Yes, I noticed the retired anomoly too. but then there is also another one for relationships.

My wife died 15 years ago, and I now am in a de facto relationship for nearly 13 years. As person 1 on the form I had no opportunity to identify as in a de facto relationship, only to say that I am widowed. That is not how I regard myself. I am in a de facto relationship as far as I am concerned. My de facto partner was able to identify as "In a De Facto relationship with Person 1, rather than as a divorcee, but poor old person 1 could not select a de facto option. I think it is extremely unfair that I could not acknowledge my current relationship status correctly on the form.

Cheers

Doug

[FenceFurniture]

Doug, why didn't you print to PDF?

If they decide to fine me (I think the might be a bit busy to trifle with such things to be frank) then I will go to court (assuming thy can set a date this decade with the backlog).

"Did you get a form from xxx address?"
"Yes"
"And was the person named as N.Ottelling?" (think about it)
"Yes"
"Well there you have it. Are you fining me for not filling it in, which I did, or for not providing my name, which you don't need?"

[doug3030]

Doug, why didn't you print to PDF?

Form was submitted by person 5 not me (person 1) so I did not print anything. Person 5 has an Apple. no further explanation should be needed.:doh:

But, if we ever need it we will need it in hard copy anyway. Saving it to pdf format on some hard drive somewhere does not guarantee that you can print it out when you need it.

Cheers

Doug

[KBs PensNmore]

The moron who set up the questions could take a few lessons in diplomacy, as Doug said relationships, retired, etc. Not very enticing to do the right thing.

[Lyle]

Amazing our PM was trying to find out "who to blame and who was responsible". The blame game.:aargh:

[GeoffW1]

They had four DDOS attacks. The problem with this type of thing is that DDOS a tacks are impossible to guard against. They say it was from overseas.

John

Hi Yanis,

That is not the case. There are well recognised safeguards which can be taken. Did they try some? Don't hold your breath for a confession here.

But..........could I do better? Not saying.

Cheers

[q9]

Contracting company was IBM, who I gather are better at writing their contracts than their clients are at reading them.

[bueller]

Contracting company was IBM, who I gather are better at writing their contracts than their clients are at reading them.
This is the gospel right here. IBM are well known in the industry for underperforming and then pointing to their iron clad contracts for reasons why theyre not liable.

[Handyjack]

Finally able to log back in and complete. Luckily 3/4 was auto saved before site crashed.
Tried getting on site multiple times today but finally was successful. Not bad 95.5 hours after starting I finished. Longest survey ever!

[Twisted Tenon]

As usual the ABC has a good take on this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTyuMCB7G4A) :D

TT

[harry wall]

I haven't completed the online census yet - tried to on Tuesday but the site was down. I don't mind giving statistical (relatively general) information to the lying scumbag politicians and lying scumbag bureaucrats but they won't be getting my name and address and certainly not the name and address of my employer.

[Tonyz]

If they cross reference the answers for our family they will be scratching their peverbials trying to cross reference everything.

Try swoping your first and last names around, addresses......opps must be dyslexcic got that wrong.

[Sturdee]

I don't understand all the fuss about the names and addresses and your employer and location.

From memory these questions have been there all the time. The only new thing is that they want to retain your name and address for a longer period.

What annoys me is that they presume I wanted to do this online, and thus have to upgrade my computer, just so that more data entry people can be sacked and made unemployed.

Hence I submitted my census in a paper form.

Peter.

[FenceFurniture]

I haven't completed the online census yet - tried to on Tuesday but the site was down. Two tries would be my "fed up" point. If they want the info then they can at least have the good grace to make it reasonably easy to give it to them rather than expecting we'll spend half the month trying.

This doesn't sound good for online election voting.....



I don't understand all the fuss about the names and addresses and your employer and location. Simple Peter - they can't be trusted not to let the data escape (with an online form...and maybe even paper). Identity theft is a big concern. I shred EVERYTHING that has my name/address on it, or even the name of the sender if they are friends. ID thieves don't need much info to get going.

They simply don't need to know my name, only my location (as opposed to address) to make the data 100% useful. My name isn't required on an election ballot form, and I see no difference whatsoever.

[Sturdee]

My name isn't required on an election ballot form, and I see no difference whatsoever.

True, but you are marked of from the electoral roll which shows your full name and full address.

This electoral roll is available for anyone to peruse at the Electoral office at any time as in my working life this was one of the tools we used to track delinquent borrowers. :U


Peter.

[doug3030]

True, but you are marked of from the electoral roll which shows your full name and full address.

This electoral roll is available for anyone to peruse at the Electoral office at any time as in my working life this was one of the tools we used to track delinquent borrowers. :U

Not true in all cases. You can be enrolled as a "Silent Voter".

Cheers

Doug

[ian]

I don't understand all the fuss about the names and addresses and your employer and location.

From memory these questions have been there all the time. The only new thing is that they want to retain your name and address for a longer period.Hi Peter

the fuss is what ABS plan to do with your personal information this time. In the past personal information was retained only long enough to check for duplication -- this time the plan is to link it to all other sources of Government data. Four years is long enough for the current fuss to die down before doing the linking.

[FenceFurniture]

True, but you are marked of from the electoral roll which shows your full name and full address.Also true, but that data (my vote - should I make one) isn't linked to it, unlike the Census form. Of course the Govt already knows who I am and where I live, but they don't particularly know how or what I think, and I like it that way. They can track what I spend my money on if they want to, and they can track more or less where I go (if I use trains, where I fill up with petrol and how often). I don't see the need for them to have as much data linked to me as they'd like, just for the sake of it.

Some might say I'm para, others might say I'm cautious with potentially good reason.

[A Duke]

As I hear every day in the real estate pages "it's different here".

Don't worry. We could never possibly have a hard line fascist or communist state that would round up dissidents and undesirables for the ovens. Information would never be used against you by the state. Never.

Its different here.


How do you know?

[AlexS]

Hugh, push your sarcasm detection button.

[A Duke]

Hugh, push your sarcasm detection button.I Don't know, just look at other colonies that have been De-colonized or dumped.
DAMHIK

[ian]

5 weeks on from failure night and the ABS website is still prominently displaying

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=394648&d=1474354673

I wonder how many people are yet to take advantage of "there's still time ..."

[Handyjack]

I think you have until Sep 23rd to complete census on line.
Have a look at the site in a few days to see if its changed.

[Big Shed]

Interesting article on the "privacy" of census data in various places

The dark side of census collections - Rear Vision - ABC Radio National (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/the-dark-side-of-census-collections/7860908)

[Twisted Tenon]

Interesting article on the "privacy" of census data in various places

The dark side of census collections - Rear Vision - ABC Radio National (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/the-dark-side-of-census-collections/7860908)

Its all a matter of trust .........and I don't


TT

[Bob38S]

Trust me, I work for the government.

Yep, right up there with the used car salesmen, real estate agents, banks, lawyers and insurance companies.

I love that warm fuzzy feeling.