Flooring problem.

[artme]

Round about 20th April this year we had loose lay vinyl flooring planks laid throughout our dining,kitchen,
family room and hallways. This is a Dunlop product and was laid by a professional floor flooring person. The
product was bought partly on his recommendation and partly on the recommendation of the supplier.

The finished job looked absolutely perfect and the floor layer came back a couple of times over the next month
or so just to check that all was well.

Everything was well and good until the first cold night towards the end of June. In the morning we noticed
gaps appearing where the planks butt against each other on the ends. Since then these gaps have opened
and closed according to the temperature. In the afternoon when we get sunshine on parts of the floor the gaps
close almost completely.

We went to the supplier who said he would get in touch with Dunlop and have them come to check things out.
This he did not do. Instead the floor layer who does contract work for the supplier was told to come out and "Fix it".

We feel this was wrong as it was not the floorer's problem. We were here during the laying and we know how particular
he was in doing the job. This fellow examined the floor and could not find where he MIGHT have erred. Even in places
where the floor was glued there is some parting of the ways.

We contacted Dunlop and finally they rang us. They have, over the phone, denied product fault but are sending a rep
to examine the situation next week. They have also told us that the supplier was unhelpful.

My fear is that a snow job will be done by Dunlop and there may be some loss incurred by both the floor layer and ourselves.

What disgusts me about the whole situation is the attitude of the supplier. It wasn't until after one personal visit and then
two phone calls over almost 3 weeks that any approach was made to Dunlop by them. I have heard this fellow refer to customers
as dickheads. He is obviously not brave enough to say that to their face. His whole attitude has been to wash his hands of
everything and blame others. What would it have cost him to immediately get onto Dunlop?? If there is a fault with the product they
will wear the cost, not him. I hate smart arses!!!

[ian]

Could this expansion/contraction be normal?

Do you have or can you find a product specification listing the expansion/ contraction of vinyl?

[rustynail]

A common problem with cheap imported vinyls. Try to get hold of the product information and specs prior to the rep's visit and see what he has to say and go from there. Best to be armed with a bit of info before accepting the manufacturers agents comments as gospel.

[artme]

Was assured by the supplier that this product had a minimal expansion. He did quote figures but I have forgotten them.
The figure quoted was nowhere near the 3mm gaps we measure in a couple of places.

All information supplied was on the packaging and the requirements for keeping within the warranty conditions were met.

This is NOT a Cheap imported vinyl product. It is manufactured by Dunlop and they claim that of all the tens of thousands
of Square metres they have sold this is their first complaint. I know that the confidence shown by Dunlop in this product
was shown by them increasing the warranty period And extending their recommendations for gluing every 5 metres to every
50 metres!! Our fellow stuck with 5metres!

[FenceFurniture]

... this is their first complaint.Sounds like it's snowing, which is unusual for your part of the country.

If I understand it correctly - the vinyl planks aren't attached to any substrate or battens? Just placed over the existing floor and then glued together? How thick are they? I wouldn't have thought vinyl would expand and contract so much, but it sounds like it's worse than timber.

[KBs PensNmore]

Suppliers will say anything to get a sale, if/when any problems arise, will deny any knowledge of saying so. Like insurances they NEVER admit liability.
Kryn

[ian]

Was assured by the supplier that this product had a minimal expansion. He did quote figures but I have forgotten them.
The figure quoted was nowhere near the 3mm gaps we measure in a couple of places.

All information supplied was on the packaging and the requirements for keeping within the warranty conditions were met.

This is NOT a Cheap imported vinyl product. It is manufactured by Dunlop and they claim that of all the tens of thousands
of Square metres they have sold this is their first complaint. I know that the confidence shown by Dunlop in this product
was shown by them increasing the warranty period And extending their recommendations for gluing every 5 metres to every
50 metres!! Our fellow stuck with 5metres!Looking at the US recommendations for vinyl strip flooring, the expected expansion / contraction is in the order of 12 to 16 mm for a typical [US] sized room. (The recommendation I found was leave a 5/16" expansion gap on all sides of a room. The expansion gap to be covered with a skirting board.)
The other thing I found was a recommendation to keep the room's temperature between 13 and 30 degrees C.

So while very unsightly, a few 3mm gaps might be within specification for the product. 3 mm over 6 m (20 feet) might be expressed as expansion / contraction of 0.05%

[NathanaelBC]

Ugh we had a similar experience with flooring in 2014 ... tassie oak veneered boards, supposed to be hard-wearing but were heavily scratched within weeks. Contacted the installer, who referred us to his distributor who similarly shrugged and referred us to the manufacturer who merely smirked and pointed to the product spec sheet which was of course unhelpful.

Installer was a great guy, offered to remedy it for free with additional poly coating but we turned him down - not his fault, he believed the product was better and was just as let down as we were.

[artme]

Sounds like it's snowing, which is unusual for your part of the country.

If I understand it correctly - the vinyl planks aren't attached to any substrate or battens? Just placed over the existing floor and then glued together? How thick are they? I wouldn't have thought vinyl would expand and contract so much, but it sounds like it's worse than timber.

The planks are 5mm thick and are simply laid onto the existing flooring, or substrate as the packaging says. The only gluing done is up against the perimeter where the first
row is glued to the existing floor. Sometimes a second row may be glued but this is not necessary. Every 5 metres thereafter a row may be glued. The rest of the planks are
simply laid end to end. Our Floor layer was careful to knock the ends tight up against each other and to knock them together along the sides. I cannot fault his work.

The existing vinyl floor is glued down and never showed any signs of movement. It was thoroughly cleaned before the new material was laid and SWMBO kept vacuuming as
progress was made just to be sure everything was right.

I did expect a little movement, I'm not blind to the properties of vinyl, but I think this is ridiculous. When the floor is cleaned particles drop down the cracks. It is easy enough
to remove a plank and then remove the offending particles, but why should we have to?? BTW, we are also seeing longitudinal gaps.

I have seen other similar products _ which our supplier pours scorn on - and no problems are seen with them. A friend of ours did his own job and the problem of expansion
.and contraction has not arisen. This despite him using, according to our supplier, a "S^&t" product.

[q9]

Don't worry, many people with VW DSG gearboxes were told "This is the first complaint we've received..."

Spend a bit of time to research (google) consumer rights, and use some of the following terms "fit for purpose", "of merchantable quality", "expert advice" - in relation to the advice you received and relied on in choosing and having this product installed, just a few to get you going. The old Act was called the Trade Practices Act (from memory) but it has since been superseded but hasn't lost any of its bite. It greatly favours the consumer and is worth spending a bit of time looking up.

Likely scenario is that there will end up being argy-bargy between the manufacturer/supplier and the installer - neither of which is your problem except the possible delay it may cause. Just keep the heat on the pot and it will boil.

Final thought, don't be tricked into signing ANYTHING. They (someone else not you) will have to remedy the situation at no cost to you but may try to get you to either pay or agree to pay some money, or limit your ability to talk about it. You don't have to accept their terms.

[AlexS]

Good advice from Q9
The responsibility to you is on the retailer. What happens between them and Dunlop is not your problem.

[ian]

:whs:

but from the Dunlop Heritage vinyl flooring installation guides:

• Maintain a relative humidity level between 50%-65% and a room temperature between 17°C – 25°C -- Click together planks

• Maintain room temperature between 14°C – 28°C and avoid rapid or significant temperature fluctuations. -- loose lay planks

[artme]

:whs:

but from the Dunlop Heritage vinyl flooring installation guides:

• Maintain a relative humidity level between 50%-65% and a room temperature between 17°C – 25°C -- Click together planks

• Maintain room temperature between 14°C – 28°C and avoid rapid or significant temperature fluctuations. -- loose lay planks

This is not heritage but Catleton.

I wonder if the supplier is supposed to advise the consumer of the the temperature conditions?/ Will have to check that out.

If the conditions you list are true for this product then why bother to even sell it?? It seems as if only perfectly controlled
conditions will make the product satisfactory, or fit for purpose.

[ian]

I agree.

The US sites say something like "the temperature conditions that are good for your floor are also good for your comfort"

bit of an all purpose get out me thinks

[artme]

Read the printing on the box and it says what your info says. My comment still stands and I want to know if the product is really
fit for purpose.

This was not drawn to our attention before purchase and this makes me wonder about duty of disclosure.

[ian]

Read the printing on the box and it says what your info says. My comment still stands and I want to know if the product is really
fit for purpose.

This was not drawn to our attention before purchase and this makes me wonder about duty of disclosure.not sure that there is any duty of disclosure, the environment information is on the box so presumably it has been "disclosed" to the customer.

You might have better success with fit for purpose. BUT ...
my late father was involved with several standards committees during his working years. I recall him commenting that at one time the committee dealing with domestic refrigeration proposed 35°C as the upper test limit for a fridge. The implication being that a fridge didn't need to keep the contents cool if the environmental temperature exceeded 35°C. As you will be aware, summer temperatures greater than 40°C are fairly common across much of Australia. Go figure.
There could be a similar situation here -- an obscure Australian standard has defined the "normal" temperature range within Australian houses to be 14 to 28°C.

[artme]

Fellow fom Dunlop arrived this morning and spent over an hour with us. He removed several planks and measured them.
They were the size stated on the box, even though the weather was quite cold and we had some gaps throughout the
flooring.

Long and short of this is tha t the retailer had failed to bring to our attention a warning notice issued to all retailers by Dunlop
at about the time the product was released. It warns about movement in wooden flooring that can cause problems with this
product. Of particular note is particle board flooring which apparently EXPANDS in the cold!! Why this happens I know not as
I thought ice was the only thing that expanded as it got colder. On the evidence supplied by the company I have no way of
disputing any of this.

According to this rep there was a similar case with a house that had a concrete slab floor that joined a particle board floor where
the ground dropped away. Planks over the wooden floor had gaps open in them and so a couple of random planks were taken from
both areas and measured against each other. No shrinkage was evident so therefore there was movement in the particle board flooring.

The rep has spoken with our installer ( who, btw, had done the best laying job the fellow had seen ) and after talking to him, separately
to talking with us, was satisfied there was no fault with the workmanship whatsoever. He has arranged to have extra planks supplied
directly to us at no cost to us, and to have the floor layer come back and relay the floor using pressure sensitive glue. This should alleviate
most of the problem and cost us nothing.

I have no other avenue than to accept this, especially after the long time we spent going over the pros and cons and my acceptance that what
Dunlop says about floor movement is correct. I have no scientific way to dispute this. I have suggested to the rep that Dunlop place this warning
on their packaging, an idea he took seriously.

I am however, mightily peeved with the retailer who made no attempt to help us in any way. It was not until almost 3 weeks after the problem
was first brought to his attention and a couple of extra phone calls, that he finally contacted Dunlop. I am peeved that the warning sent to all
retailers by Dunlop was not brought to our attention - if it had we may not have bought the product. I am peeved that the retailer attempted
to pass the buck to the installer. The retailer did not come out to examine the problem himself - in fact he told Dunlop that the flooring was
incorrectly laid and the warranty was void. It was not up to the retailer to make that decision, especially since he had not seen the job.

I will Never set foot in that establishment again and nor will I recommend them to any other person!

[ian]

from the Carter Holt Harvey Yellow tongue installation guide
Particleboard Flooring will expand and contract as sheets respond to changes in atmospheric moisture. Allowance for this movement must be made throughout the floor area by providing gaps and special joints as appropriate to accommodate sheet expansion.

from the laminex yellow tongue guide
Particleboard Flooring will expand and contract as sheets respond to changes in atmospheric moisture.Allowance for the movement must be made throughout the floor area by providing gaps and special joints as appropriate to accommodate sheet expansion ... An expansion gap of 1–2 mm per metre of room dimension (10 mm minimum) should be left around the room perimeter

[q9]

For the time being, it is an outcome. Time will tell if it is a good outcome or not...if you continue to have problems, then you still have rights. Never forget that, and as I said before, be wary if they try and flash anything in your face to sign on completion of whatever they do next. You don't, and shouldn't have to sign anything, nor sign anything away...

[rustynail]

Oh now you tell me its on particle board! As a product executive for a particle board manufacturer we always recommended a hard board underlay for such products.
I note with interest, this recommendation has been discontinued in a written format, but the sentiment remains the same. Go figure.

[artme]

Oh now you tell me its on particle board! As a product executive for a particle board manufacturer we always recommended a hard board underlay for such products.
I note with interest, this recommendation has been discontinued in a written format, but the sentiment remains the same. Go figure.

Did not mean to mislead anyone! The particleboard is covered with hard glued vinyl planks so, does that mean the substrate is the vinyl
or the particleboard?.I t probably means little as the PB is covered and all is flat dry and clean. I very much doubt that there was any
consideration given to expansion/contraction when the place was built. An examination under the house does not show anything.

I have not, and will not sign anything as i consider the Dunlop rep was very thorough and fair with everything he said and did. I just guess that
it is a case of buyer beware, especially since the retailer failed to supply all information and this, I think, relates back to my earlier mention ofduty
of disclosure.

We mentioned the matter of Dunlop putting this information on their packaging and this was at least taken as a good point. It remains to see what will be done in future.

[Wellhello]

Hi artme,
just wondering if you're still having issues with your vinyl flooring ? We are having problems with ours too.
Can I ask what the evidence was by the supplier ?

[rrich]

"The only gluing done is up against the perimeter where the first row is glued to the existing floor. Sometimes a second row may be glued but this is not necessary. Every 5 metres thereafter a row may be glued. The rest of the planks are simply laid end to end."

At best, I'm a termite. So what I say may be considered the same as 'white ant tunnels'.

When thinking of expansion of a raised panel due to moisture changes:
The center centimeter or two of the end grain is glued into the rail. This forces the wood movement into the stiles.

Applying this to flooring, I would glue all end to end and allow the perimeter to float. I would glue the edges at the center of the room for about 3 cm. The edges of the flooring would be covered with molding on the wall and a ¼ round toe cap.

My thoughts are to do what you would do with wood movement and force the movement into an area where you can control the effects.

DUNNO and remember the white ant tunnels.