Breakfast cereal deception

[Dodgy Dovetails]

I suppose this subject is only marginally related to wood - but it certainly is to wood production and wastage.

More than that though, it is relevant to all of us as we all buy breakfast cereal. Likewise we have usually been treated by breakfast cereal manufacturers as mugs.

Here is a photo of an unopened inside packet of Weet-bix bites. And over a third of the cardboard packet it came out of is fresh air! The packet is a lie, and a vastly cynical one, merely there to make us believe we are getting more product than we are.

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/ag116/waveflow/Visual-deception-rippoff_zpse91b053b.jpg (http://s1301.photobucket.com/user/waveflow/media/Visual-deception-rippoff_zpse91b053b.jpg.html)

I'm quite happy to pay whatever the price is for that amount of cereal, what I don't like is paying for the extra amount embedded in the price, not to mention the resource wastage, of all the empty packaging fresh air. It is only there as a deception - a deception that they are forcing us to pay for! Talk about cynicism!

If they are going to have packets that big, well, fill the buggers up and I'll be happy to pay whatever the extra amount is. As things stand they are treating us all like 'king mushrooms.

I'm sure next time you are scanning the breakfast aisle, you'll be thinking about this now! :~

[wolften]

...does the bag with the weeties weigh 500g as stated (net weight), not including the box<

[Gra]

I suspect the air is like this for the same reason as with chips. It's cushioning for when tha package is shipped, basically so not so many break

[Sebastiaan56]

There are regulations about headspace in food packaging. But most of these products are sold by weight and settling does occur. Consider the machine dumping the cereal into the bag and then the settling that occurs as the box get bounced around on forklifts, in trucks etc.

If you a feeling hard done by ring the manufacturer.

[Sturdee]

I fail to see why this is posted in the Woodwork-general forum and I also fail to see why this is posted at all as the air in the packet is there for the purpose of avoiding crushing during transport. :~


May be it's to get the poster's post count up.



Peter.

[Big Shed]

I fail to see why this is posted in the Woodwork-general forum and I also fail to see why this is posted at all as the air in the packet is there for the purpose of avoiding crushing during transport. :~


May be it's to get the poster's post count up.



Peter.

There you go Peter, moved it to a more appropriate forum.:2tsup:

[Dodgy Dovetails]

I fail to see why this is posted in the Woodwork-general forum and I also fail to see why this is posted at all as the air in the packet is there for the purpose of avoiding crushing during transport. :~


May be it's to get the poster's post count up. Peter.

G'day Peter,

Well I was searching for the right place to post this, but I missed this one "nothing to do with woodwork." I struggled therefore, using 'wood production and wastage" as a skyhook to hang the thread on in a woodwork forum. (Sorry "big shed" it is the second time you have had to relocate a thread of mine.)

My low post count also reveals my site navigational inexperience. (It also reveals something else about me that I am trying to conceal..)

But, in retrospect, a woodwork forum is a perfect place to air my breakfast cereal grievance. Why? Because all of you see things in manual, practical ways, and hence identified the air space as providing "cushioning" for the brittle product. Whether that has been scientifically tested is another matter however, especially as a familiar weet bix or vita brits box (the one we all grew up with) is packed to the gunwhales with product and it has never demonstrated any extra tendency to disintegrate. It is clearly therefore marketing deception hiding under the fig leaf of an undemonstrated protection of the product, one contradicted by other of their products in practice.

It is the public to which the cereal manufacturers are beholden, and so it is with the public that I have brought it up. Because for me, an irritation shared is an irritation lessened. Thanks for that guys! :U

[Sturdee]

identified the air space as providing "cushioning" for the brittle product. Whether that has been scientifically tested is another matter however, especially as a familiar weet bix or vita brits box (the one we all grew up with) is packed to the gunwhales with product and it has never demonstrated any extra tendency to disintegrate.

Don't know for certain with the weet bix or vita brits box as I've never ever eaten them.

I'm a cornflakes man myself :D and for that packaging with the cushioning air space is essential. Maybe because of that and other loose cereals all the packaging machines are set up like that for economies of scale.


Peter.

Btw I agree that there are lots of forums and I suppose it must be confusing for a new member.

[Ian Smith]

I'm a cornflakes man myself :D and for that packaging with the cushioning air space is essential. .

Off course it is, otherwise that flake you get in every bowl which deflects the milk out of the bowl and onto the bench, would be broken and not perform its function

[FenceFurniture]

Don't know for certain with the weet bix or vita brits box as I've never ever eaten them.

I'm a cornflakes man myself :D and for that packaging with the cushioning air space is essential. Maybe because of that and other loose cereals all the packaging machines are set up like that for economies of scale.
Weet Bix are certainly very tightly packed - nil airspace.

I wonder about the cushioning effect for the likes of Corn Flakes - that would only come into play for
a) the top part of the contents (because the bottom content is all pushed together, and
b) far more relevant - anyone ever buy a box a of Corn Flakes where the box was crushed? All I ever see on the shelves is pristine boxes - the retailers are VERY fussy about whay goes on display. That's the only way the "cushioning" would come into play which would the lead back to point a) where only the top of the contents would be cushioned anyway.

The manufacturers well and truly know that we buy with our eyes. Anyone know what a kilo of Corn Flakes looks like???

That leads me to conclude that it's a ripoff, but there is a worse example. I can't bring the brand to mind, but I think it might be the "Vitawheats" bicsuits lookalike in Aldis (amongst countless others in any store). The cardboard box is (say) 250mm long. The tightly plastic wrapped biscuits inside the box are only 200mm long which means the whole packet can slide around inside the box by 50mm.

So, what is this 50mm of air for, if not to mislead us into the volume of the contents?

And Dodgy, if the amount of air in packaging gets up your nose, you oughta try buying something up here (altitude 1017m). Anything packed at sea level takes on a whole new dimension (literally). Today, being Father's Day, I bought for myself a packet of crisps - they looked like they were going to pop open in front of my eyes!

[FenceFurniture]

May be it's to get the poster's post count up. There are far more blatant ways of doing that without going to the trouble of taking a photograph, uploading it yadda, yadda. Furthermore, if you look at when DD joined it was ten months ago - apparently not concerned about post count, it would seem.

Even if he (?) was then that's reasonably legitimate when you're under ten posts, so that you can get the benefits that come with >10 posts.

[A Duke]

Weet bix and Vita brits are a regular shape and can be packed to a regular shape (as well as keeping you regular :wink:) but these others and chipies are poured in untill they reach their weight and then settle, they would not fit in initially if there was just enough room for the settled product.
Regards

[Dodgy Dovetails]

The manufacturers well and truly know that we buy with our eyes.

I have an unexpected ally in Fence furniture!

Extremely brittle and thin chips I think have a justification here for the air space left (though twisties don't) but that is a fig leaf as thin as the crisps themselves that the likes of cornflakes, nutra grain, and the very robust weet bix bites above are hiding behind. Less than two thirds of the box is product?? I've just got back from the supermarket in fact, and was having a good old squeeze of alot of them, and most are the same.

Guys, you all know in your hearts it is a deception. Ok, fine, but the extra packaging has costs embedded in the product that we are paying for! Paying twice, once in deception and a second time in actual currency!

He he.. that is a funny one about the exploding high altitude Smith's Chip's packet FF! :U

[maggs]

I saw a doco recently and they were using dry nitrogen to fill the chip bags. Both to expel oxygen to keep them fresher and provide padding. If it wasn't nitrogen it was something like that. My memory doesn't work so good anymore.
Steve

[ajw]

In a previous life I worked in the food manufacturing industry. Many products, including breakfast cereals are automatically packed using multi head weighing machines that dump combinations of "buckets" into a packing machine. The software calculates which buckets to drop, to reach as close as possible to the correct weight.

check out this video to see the range of products packed this way. Ishida weighers for every application - YouTube (http://youtu.be/Cnsd9xqzR7I)

Because of the way the product falls, it is spread out as it enters the bag. Manufacturers try to minimise the material used in the bag, but if they make the bag too short, product gets caught in the seal generating waste. The products really do settle during transport! That said, the cardboard boxes tend to be designed to have the same height on the shelf, with the depth varied to account for density differences. A bigger face panel provides more space for branding and photography.

I don't think the headspace in the pack you've received is excessive, from my years of working with this kind of machinery.


cheers,

ajw

[FenceFurniture]

So what would the explanation be for a 200mm long, tightly plastic wrapped packet inside a 250mm long cardboard box?

[DavidG]

Box pressing, printing and folding machines come in standard sizes.

[ajw]

So what would the explanation be for a 200mm long, tightly plastic wrapped packet inside a 250mm long cardboard box?

Not sure why they would have done that. My comments were more aimed at products that are packed using multi head weighers.

ajw

[Hermit]

If the weight is right, personally I don't care how big the packaging is. To my mind, since they are sold by weight, there would only be a deception if the contents were under-weight.

Regarding the air gap for cushioning, though, wouldn't it allow the contents to jump around more and break up?

[Dodgy Dovetails]

To my mind, since they are sold by weight, there would only be a deception if the contents were under-weight.

Regarding the air gap for cushioning, though, wouldn't it allow the contents to jump around more and break up?

re that latter point, like I said, this forum is the perfect place to raise the issue with practical gents used to thinking in three dimensional terms.

I was wondering about that latter point too - how scientific is the air gap "cushioning" effect?

As hermit suggests, the idea even sounds a bit counter-intuitive.

On your former point though, when you look at the packet, yes it does honestly state 500gms of product, but the size of the box - more than a third bigger than it has to be - suggests to all but the intensely practical and three dimensionally thinking types on this forum that 500gms of product "must therefore be that volume size." Wow, they conclude - what tremendous value!

But I got news for them - it ain't. And as I keep on saying, we are all paying for the surplus packaging in the price of the box of cereal. There is a marketing deception and it does come at a cost to us, correct weight of product or not.

Standard machine box dimension sizes are conveniently made all too large. (with the exception of honest varieties like normal weet bix or vita brits boxes.

Sometimes the minutia of life is fun to analyse mates! :U

[Hermit]

re that latter point, like I said, this forum is the perfect place to raise the issue with practical gents used to thinking in three dimensional terms.

I was wondering about that latter point too - how scientific is the air gap "cushioning" effect?

As hermit suggests, the idea even sounds a bit counter-intuitive.

On your former point though, when you look at the packet, yes it does honestly state 500gms of product, but the size of the box - more than a third bigger than it has to be - suggests to all but the intensely practical and three dimensionally thinking types on this forum that 500gms of product "must therefore be that volume size." Wow, they conclude - what tremendous value!

But I got news for them - it ain't. And as I keep on saying, we are all paying for the surplus packaging in the price of the box of cereal. There is a marketing deception and it does come at a cost to us, correct weight or not.

Standard machine box dimension sizes are conveniently made all too large. (with the exception of honest varieties like normal weet bix or vita brits boxes.

Sometimes the minutia of life is fun to analyse mates! :U

I did notice that your packet of Weet Bix Bites had a lot more debris in the bottom than the standard, tightly-packed ones.

(I eat the standard Weet Bix, so don't experience your problem.)

[Toymaker Len]

Never mind the extra space and packaging what about the sugar they lace most cereals with to keep you coming back. Thats the real danger.

[A Duke]

Some more things to amuse you. The price of packaging materials in all its layers, ink and printing then putting the product in the packaging v/s the price of ingredients and manufacture. On the other hand, how many of us would like to take our own plate to the supermarket and get a scoop of cereal out of a barrel.
:)
Have fun

[MAPLEMAN]

Brought some 'Generic' fruit loops the other day :doh:...no xtra air in the packaging :rolleyes:,but made me crook the following day :C:confuzzled:..never again :no:..MM

[Hermit]

Brought some 'Home Brand' fruit loops the other day :doh:...no xtra air in the packaging :rolleyes:,but made me crook the following day :C:confuzzled:..never again :no:..MM

Yep, I bought the generic Weet Bix a few weeks ago, to try. Never again. I'm sure I saw something in there that a rat had left behind.

Edit: I'm not saying exactly which brand. :wink:

[Bushmiller]

I think there may be a little of almost everything mentioned involved in this cereal product. Packaging filling by machines, settlement of the contents, but most of all marketing.

Whilst we are incensed by a packet that is only two thirds full, we are also reluctant to buy something that looks smaller than the rival products. In terms of loose cereal products I suspect (but don't know) there is a standard size box for a given weight of product. It may not be an exact sizing but it will be close.

As others have said it is the weight that is all important and this is a dimension that can be disputed.

I recall a chocolate bar product that was advertised in the sixties, Frys chocolate cream.

283627

It was re-vamped in a TV commercial with the headline:

"Big Fry Comes Into Town."

The new chocolate bar was bigger, but it weighed less and Frys were taken to court over it (I can't recall the outcome except I think the commercial was pulled.) I think George Lazenby (remember, Dianna Rigg's friend :rolleyes:) was the man with the box of chocolate on his shoulder marching into town.

If a product is stated as being something it has to be just that. If it doesn't say the box is full they can make it whatever size they want :) . As a chocoloholic I always check the weight of the product. For example a Mars bar is 60g, but the derivative Mars bar products are often only 50g and they don't taste as good :rolleyes: .

Regards
Paul

[tea lady]

You guys are just avoiding talk of the election aren't you. :P At keast this is something we might be able to change. No matter what we get a dick head PM though.

[Sturdee]

You guys are just avoiding talk of the election aren't you.

Not really as I made up my mind on how to vote when the Carbon tax was introduced by a former PM. I wasn't able to rely on her promises but I can punish the party that did that to me. So it has nothing to do with elections.


Peter.

[RedShirtGuy]

No matter what we get a dick head PM though.
I've been calling it "The Gastro Election". What do you prefer? Vomit or diarrhea? :q

Anyway...I suppose y'all have noticed over the years that while prices have remained reasonably similar, the amount in the packages has shrunk and in some cases the packaging has stayed the same size, but with less content...All hail the per 100g/ml/lt pricing...that has helped circumvent the dodgy packaging/marketing enormously.

And as an another aside...back in the day (80's) Kit-Kats had the most efficient wrapping. The foil was formed in such a way that it perfectly covered the chocolately goodness and had negligible overlap - hence less waste and superior stacking ability...apparently. It was quite the exercise to devise a better wrapping technique that withstood the "balanced huge stack" test . That's about the only thing I remember from primary school :U

[Dodgy Dovetails]

back in the day (80's) Kit-Kats had the most efficient wrapping. The foil was formed in such a way that it perfectly covered the chocolately goodness and had negligible overlap - hence less waste and superior stacking ability...apparently. It was quite the exercise to devise a better wrapping technique that withstood the "balanced huge stack" test . That's about the only thing I remember from primary school :U

Yes, aluminum is not cheap, either in cost or energy needed to make it - someone called it electricity in solid form (or something like that) so it was in Kit Kat's (Nestles?) interests to make the aluminium wrapper as efficient, ie, as small, as possible. Unlike the cereal manufacturers!

I always ran my thumbnail down the valleys of the Kit Kat, splitting the aluminium along a row to open it. Others were probably more finicky and carefully unwrapped it.

I've learnt a lot of interesting detail from this thread!

[Dodgy Dovetails]

You guys are just avoiding talk of the election aren't you. :P At keast this is something we might be able to change.

You've nailed one of my weaknesses tea lady - railing against things outside of anyone's power to change! :balloon:

[Master Splinter]

Another reason for packaging being a bit 'vague' is to allow the manufacturer a bit of wiggle room when they have to change the product weight due to seasonal variations in the price of the ingredients; especially relevant with products like chocolate...I remember seeing "NOW 20% BIGGER" on chocolate bars so many times that the standard size should be like a kilo or more by now....

But I've found that I now price shop by that handy 100 gram price, so full marks to whoever legislated it!

[underfoot]

But I've found that I now price shop by that handy 100 gram price, so full marks to whoever legislated it!

..Yep, always check the 'per 100gm' price....if they could just print it slightly larger that would be great..(i wouldn't need to take two pairs of specs then)

[Sebastiaan56]

Box pressing, printing and folding machines come in standard sizes.

Well actually they dont. There are mandrels that need to be made for each individual package design, add some tear off tabs etc and it gets rather expensive and messy. Nor does the equipment that makes the various cereals. It is all pretty well bespoke. I spent 16 years in that industry, in the balance between marketers and practicality the engineers nearly always won and the marketers reduced to designing fancy graphics. Its about capital and ROI.

In my Packaging Technology course the golden rule was "the tighter you pack it, the less damage will occur". The physics are easy enough to understand. It is why the branded wheat biscuits are so closely packed. We want the shocks of transport to be absorbed by the outside packaging not the product contents. Think cans of beer, cigarettes, packs of copy paper. Supply chain price pressures force this efficiency. That is also why there is always less damage in branded wheat biscuits. BTW there are two main factories making these in Aust (at least there was 10 years ago), they have different methods of getting the biscuit to its final shape. One uses molds, the other cuts a sheet of biscuit. But the practicality of bowls, competition etc have normalised the size.

As for the stuff in the bags, that subject has been thrashed. You buy by weight. Cushioning has been well demonstrated all over the world. It is inefficient but it is life :shrug: