Cabots Danish Oil formula change?

[Lplates]

Hey guys,

Just bought new can of danish oil since my old one gummed up into a jelly like substance inside the can after being left for 6+months. I used it for the first time last night on my new router table build and I noticed that the application instructions have changed. They used to advise leaving it on for 5-10min and then wiping off and allowing to dry 8hrs, where as the new can just says, apply and leave for 8hrs. This is great and all since it eliminates the wiping process which could be a pain in the past, just wondering if they have changed the formula or not. It does appear to be much clearer, not as yellowing as it was previously. I'm just wondering if it will still provide a similar satin finish as the old stuff which i am quite fond of. I guess i'll see when i apply all the coats to my current work.

Both cans were from Cabots; The original was bought some 2-3yrs ago and the new one just recently. Shame i've thrown out the old can as i would have liked to post some pics.

Anyone noticed the change?

[Chesand]

Perhaps you should ring Cabots.

[Lplates]

Hi Guys,

Just wanted to add an update for my experience with this product. I have tried refinishing one of my tables with this stuff (it was originally done with "danish oil" too), i sanded it back to the hard maple up to 180g and then applied a coat. Have to say i was very disappointed with the result. The "oil" didn't penetrate at all, it just sat on the surface and dried to form a shiny layer not too different from polyurethane.

In my opinion the formula has definitely changed, i would hazard that they removed the tung oil from the mix and made it more of a wiping varnish.

Anyway, I now have some three litres left of the stuff so i will have to use it for lesser projects. The table will need resanding and refinishing.... *sigh*

Cheers
Mat

[LGS]

Switch to Wattyl Natural Teak Oil (Scandinavian) and you will get a beautiful result every time.

Regards,

Rob

[Lplates]

Switch to Wattyl Natural Teak Oil (Scandinavian) and you will get a beautiful result every time.

Regards,

Rob

Thanks Rob, i did see that in the store. I'll give it a go. I was actually thinking about doing a bit of experimenting with some tung oil based home made mixes but i don't know if it's worth re-inventing the wheel. might just go with commercial products that have drying agents added so i don't have to wait days between coats for drying.

[LGS]

Hi LPlates,

If you've got a ROS, try this (http://www.sanding.damnfinefurniture.com). Seems like lots of work, actually takes a max of 1 hour (usually less.) Try it on some scrap first to get the hang of it. Simple, but brilliant.

Here's a dining table done this way.

Regards,

Rob

[ubeaut]

Just wanted to add an update for my experience with this product. I have tried refinishing one of my tables with this stuff (it was originally done with "danish oil" too), i sanded it back to the hard maple up to 180g and then applied a coat. Have to say i was very disappointed with the result. The "oil" didn't penetrate at all, it just sat on the surface and dried to form a shiny layer not too different from polyurethane.

Danish oil is basically watered down Polyurethane.

Danish oil will penetrate into the timber and polymerise.

Sanding back to timber surface does not mean you have sanded out the Danish Oil, just sanded it off the surface.

Reapplying the oil over the sanded out stuff will not allow the oil to penetrate because the pores of the timber are already filled with the polymerised DO so all you will get is a surface coating that will dry..... You guessed it. Like polyurethane.

If you want a really nice finish you probably should be sanding to much higher grit of paper than 180 which is basically at the top end of course abrasives and won't give the greatest of finishes no matter what you use.

As Chesand rightly said. "Perhaps you should ring Cabots."

Always the best bet, when in doubt, is to make a phone call to the manufacturer. They are the only ones who know for sure and can tell you exactly what you need to know about their product. Anything else is pretty much speculation.

We make EEE-Ultra Shine which is a wax with an abrasive in it. The abrasive is a natural stone and in mining it can often change colour from a pale cream through to a deep tan. Whenever we make a batch with a different colour we get lots of calls saying it has changed and doesn't work the same way it did in the past etc, etc....... Nothing changes just the colour. IUt is the same abrasive, the same grit size, the same wax mixture. All that changes is peoples perception of the product.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers - Neil :U

[Lplates]

Danish oil is basically watered down Polyurethane.

Danish oil will penetrate into the timber and polymerise.

Sanding back to timber surface does not mean you have sanded out the Danish Oil, just sanded it off the surface.

Reapplying the oil over the sanded out stuff will not allow the oil to penetrate because the pores of the timber are already filled with the polymerised DO so all you will get is a surface coating that will dry..... You guessed it. Like polyurethane.

If you want a really nice finish you probably should be sanding to much higher grit of paper than 180 which is basically at the top end of course abrasives and won't give the greatest of finishes no matter what you use.

As Chesand rightly said. "Perhaps you should ring Cabots."

Always the best bet, when in doubt, is to make a phone call to the manufacturer. They are the only ones who know for sure and can tell you exactly what you need to know about their product. Anything else is pretty much speculation.

We make EEE-Ultra Shine which is a wax with an abrasive in it. The abrasive is a natural stone and in mining it can often change colour from a pale cream through to a deep tan. Whenever we make a batch with a different colour we get lots of calls saying it has changed and doesn't work the same way it did in the past etc, etc....... Nothing changes just the colour. IUt is the same abrasive, the same grit size, the same wax mixture. All that changes is peoples perception of the product.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers - Neil :U


Thanks Neil.

You're probably right about the polymerization in the surface of the wood being the issue on the table. Overall it didn't come out too bad and the poly type finish is actually good for easy wiping down which is good since this is an outdoor table that gets dusty quickly.

In regards to the product change, it may or may not have changed but the application instructions have changed hence my thought about the mixture change. I have also tried it on various bare soft and hard woods and it does come out differently to what it did in the past, not the poly look that it had on the table though. Overall it's probably easier to apply now since you don't need to rub it down after 10 minutes.

I can appreciate that calling cabots would be ideal if I needed some info from them but I don't really. I was just raising this as a point of conversation here. Thank you all for the replies. I am quite inexperienced in terms of finishing so I think it's time i broadened my horizons and tried some proper oil finishes anyway. Thanks Ros for the suggestion, i might give it a go on some practice material and see how it comes out.

Cheers
mat

[rsser]

Something sold as 'Danish Oil' can have anything in it as I'm discovering doing some desk research.

I'd welcome Neil's correction ... this is my summary so far:

1. Some kind of seed or nut oil.
2. A solvent.
3. Most have some kind of drier.
4. Some kind of solid. Described in most cases as a resin or a urethane.

The proportions clearly vary, leading to diff. recommendations for application and diff. results.

You could get the MSDS for the product but decoding these requires some background in chemical engineering I'd say.

[ubeaut]

List of ingredients for the original style Danish Oil type finishes would have had a basic list of ingredients like this:

Spar varnish or stand oil, linseed and/or tung oil, turpentine.

Later Danish Oil basically rely on polyurethane, linseed and turps or something similar to make them work.

Some of the better ones use tung oil with or instead of linseed.

Some of the more green ones use a mixture of oils including nut and seed and limonene (Citrus oil).

Pretty well all of them rely on synthetic polymers like or similar to polyurethane to make them polymerise in the timber.

The above is generalisation and does not refer to any one particular manufacturer.

As the old motor oil ad used to say.... ''Oils ain't oils!"

Danish Oil: There are a few on the market.

some are fantastic,
some good to OK
some mediocre at best.
Most will give you a slightly different finish, whilst some don't seem to work at all.


Tung Oil:

There is pure tung oil (China wood oil). Not dead easy to get but it is more readily available now than a few years ago. Look for the words PURE TUNG OIL on the label.
There is tung oil finish, Watered down tung oil. Look for the words Tung Oil FINISH on the label.
There is stuff that's called tung oil finish that doesn't even have any tung oil in it. No idea what to look for in on the label. Spoke to a Cleaning chemicals agent/supplier in Geelong a few years ago who said he mixed cheap polyurethane with mineral turpentine and sold it as Ting Oil Finish for upkeep of floors. etc. (shudder).


Teak Oil:

Here's part of the blurb from a Teak Oil manufacturer "teak oil is a natural oil that can be found in teak trees and that is used to restore teak wood." Yeah right.
Teak oil basically linseed oil from 10-25% watered down to 100% dramatically with a number of and variety of solvents like, turpentine, Methyl Ethyl Ketoxime, solvent naptha, etc, ann the addition of a cobalt dryer.


Cheers :U

[LGS]

According to the MSDS (http://www.wattyl.com.au/en/find-the-right-product/wood-care/Interior/FurnitureBuiltinFurniture/Clears/WattylCraftsmanNaturalTeakOil.html) for Wattyl Natural Teak Oil (Scandinavian), the product contains mainly Mineral Turps and "synthetic" oils, plus some additives I assume are driers and hardeners. There is no mention of Linseed oil, but then there is no mention of Teak Oil either. I will say that it burnishes well and gives very good resistance to fluids and radiant heat. (According to an evaluation I did some months ago of several different oils)
Organoil Hard Burnishing Oil also gives a great satin finish, which lasts very well and resists heat and fluid. Procedure is a little more difficult than the Teak Oil method.
Liberon Pure Tung Oil mixed 1:2 with White Spirit or Terpene (citrus Oil) will also give excellent results when hard burnished.

Regards,

Rob

[rsser]

Good points.

There's also a lot you can do to vary the finish of a given product: wet sanding; cutting back; adding a coat of quality wax over the top.

I do turning and my first turning teacher was meticulous about finishing: sand to #2500; wet sand with Organoil Hard Burnishing Oil; polycrystalline wax over the top followed by buffing with a lambswool bonnet.

He found as I did that that Organoil product had a tendency to raise the grain after a few weeks and we both gave up on it.

I found that FW Scandinavian oil had more poly than my then newly preferred finish and that made it a better option for fruit bowls - resisted staining from 'leaks' better.

One thing I abhor is high gloss finishes. All you see is reflections rather than wood :no:

[LGS]

Hi Ern,
The thing about HBO is that you have to be meticulous in getting any unabsorbed oil away from the wood. Organoil recommend using McDonalds paper napkins(I kid you not!!) after the 400 and before the 1200g paper. I use slightly different approach and while I've had some lifting, generally it works well. I just don't let pieces out the door until I'm happy it's not going to look like a mess. Festool recommend this McDonald's thing for their oil system as well. Both rely on really heavy saturation that just isn't necessary.

FW Scandinavian oil is not representative of all Scan. Oils. I achieve excellent satin finishes using a hard burnishing regime with Wattyl product. As I said below, there's no Poly or Linseed Oil in the mix. You might like to give it a try on something you are turning and see. You can buy little 250ml cans of it. Should give a sensational result.

Regards,

Rob

[wood hacker]

According to the MSDS (http://www.wattyl.com.au/en/find-the-right-product/wood-care/Interior/FurnitureBuiltinFurniture/Clears/WattylCraftsmanNaturalTeakOil.html) for Wattyl Natural Teak Oil (Scandinavian), the product contains mainly Mineral Turps and "synthetic" oils, plus some additives I assume are driers and hardeners. There is no mention of Linseed oil, but then there is no mention of Teak Oil either. I will say that it burnishes well and gives very good resistance to fluids and radiant heat. (According to an evaluation I did some months ago of several different oils)
Organoil Hard Burnishing Oil also gives a great satin finish, which lasts very well and resists heat and fluid. Procedure is a little more difficult than the Teak Oil method.
Liberon Pure Tung Oil mixed 1:2 with White Spirit or Terpene (citrus Oil) will also give excellent results when hard burnished.

Regards,

Rob

Rob

One thing to be careful of when interperating an MSDS is that they are only required to declare hazardous ingredients. Anything that isn't considered hazardous by Worksafe Australia does not have to be listed on the MSDS although some manufacturers will also list non haz materials.. Looking at that particular one they only total to 100% if everything listed is at the top end of the stated range, which I guess is possible but not likely. More likely is that there are some non hazardous ingredients that make up the rest of the formula. As far as I can see neither tung oil nor linseed oil are considered hazardous by worksafe so would not necessarily appear on the MSDS but could still be part of the formula.

cheers
WH

[LGS]

One thing to be careful of when interperating an MSDS is that they are only required to declare hazardous ingredients. Anything that isn't considered hazardous by Worksafe Australia does not have to be listed on the MSDS although some manufacturers will also list non haz materials.. Looking at that particular one they only total to 100% if everything listed is at the top end of the stated range, which I guess is possible but not likely. More likely is that there are some non hazardous ingredients that make up the rest of the formula. As far as I can see neither tung oil nor linseed oil are considered hazardous by worksafe so would not necessarily appear on the MSDS but could still be part of the formula.

Hi WH,

The point is duly taken. Wattyl are not giving anything other than the hazardous components away. Some months back I did an evaluation of Liberon PureTung Oil. FW Danish Oil, Wattyl Teak Oil and Organoil HBO. Results were interesting a least. Resolution of grain was best with the Tung Oil and worst with Danish Oil. Any Poly in the mix (FW Danish Oil) caused some coagulation of the oil while it was being hard burnished, which didn't help the results. I have not tried BLO for hard burnishing, but will do so now. As it stands, the most likely extra (if there is one) in the Teak Oil is Tung Oil. It shall be interesting to see how BLO copes with the testing.
Tests included quality of finish, resistance to liquid (hot and cold), resistance to radiant heat (pot full of boiling water directly on to the surface) and ability to be cleaned with ordinary kitchen spray cleaners with no surface damage.
I'll let you know the results.

Regards,

Rob

[rsser]

Look forward to that Rob.

This was on flat surfaces? Burnished how?

WH, thanks for the heads-up.

[rsser]

Just as an aside: if you have a can of oil finish that's starting to gel, try this: strain it through a stocking and add a shot of White Spirits.

That will give you a bit more mileage but a thinner product.

Tip courtesy of Len Smith.

[LGS]

Look forward to that Rob.

This was on flat surfaces? Burnished how?

WH, thanks for the heads-up.

Hi Ern,

Flat surfaces. A stick (150 x 1000mm) of highly figured Red Gum.

Burnishing was done as per: damnfinefurniture (http://www.sanding.damnfinefurniture.com).
Tests were done after 48 hours drying.

This would equate to the process you used on the lathe I would think. One thing I find very useful for controlling the amount of oil left in the timber is the use of microfribre pads. (Festool Platin 2 but also available from Sandpaperman) I use these at 500g 1000g and the final 2000 and 4000g pads. The 500 and 1000 pads really soak up extra oil and provide a slurry free final sand and wipe down.
Give me a few days and I'll be able to post the BLO results v Wattyl Teak Oil results. I'll detail the method as well.

Regards,

Rob

[LGS]

Incidentally guys,

If you're after Pure Tung Oil at a sensible price, try your local Mitre 10. Mine (Danahers Mitre 10 in Banksia Street Heidelberg VIC), has 1 litre bottles of it for $20.00. Considering you'll probably use it cut with White Spirit (1:3) at least for your first few coats, that makes it damn cheap!

Regards,

Rob

[LGS]

Just as an aside: if you have a can of oil finish that's starting to gel, try this: strain it through a stocking and add a shot of White Spirits.

That will give you a bit more mileage but a thinner product.

Tip courtesy of Len Smith.

Ern, I wish my cans of oil should last so long!:D

Regards,

Rob

[wood hacker]

Hi WH,

The point is duly taken. Wattyl are not giving anything other than the hazardous components away. Some months back I did an evaluation of Liberon PureTung Oil. FW Danish Oil, Wattyl Teak Oil and Organoil HBO. Results were interesting a least. Resolution of grain was best with the Tung Oil and worst with Danish Oil. Any Poly in the mix (FW Danish Oil) caused some coagulation of the oil while it was being hard burnished, which didn't help the results. I have not tried BLO for hard burnishing, but will do so now. As it stands, the most likely extra (if there is one) in the Teak Oil is Tung Oil. It shall be interesting to see how BLO copes with the testing.
Tests included quality of finish, resistance to liquid (hot and cold), resistance to radiant heat (pot full of boiling water directly on to the surface) and ability to be cleaned with ordinary kitchen spray cleaners with no surface damage.
I'll let you know the results.

Regards,

Rob

Hi Rob

I've followed your previous threads on finishing and your advice on finishing with Organoil HBO has significantly improved my finish on a number of projects now. Looking forward to your latest round of testing.

cheers
WH

[LGS]

Hi all,
I'm sorry if I have hijacked this thread, but this follows on from issues relating to the hard burnishing of different oils which may or may not contain Tung Oil

Part 1 Several oils which should contain Tung Oil or say they do.
This is background to the experiment I will perform over the next few days using BLO, Wattyl Natural Teak Oil (Scandinavian) and Organoil HBO (The reference oil for this method)

In order to save space (and effort on my part) here is a link to a complete run down of the oils used and procedures followed.

The Great 5 Oil Burnish-off! - talkFestool (http://www.talkfestool.com/vb/finishing/5460-great-5-oil-burnish-off.html)

Regards,

Rob

[LGS]

So,
I performed the oiling as described above, with one exception. The oils were incubated with the timber for two incubations of 30 minutes each then sanded to 400 grit. Since performing the above evaluation, I have found this method to be satisfactory in producing the desired results.
The pics below detail the procedure as follows:

Pic 1 shows the three oils ready to go behind the highly figured Red Gum board. Three areas have been defined by two strips of masking tape labelled with each oils name and position. The board has been sanded using a Festool ETS150/3 at speed mark 6 with vacuum and using Festool Brilliant or Rubin pads; 80,100,120,150,180,240 and 400 grit.

Pic 2 show the oil applied to give a saturated appearance on each of the oils.

Left is BLO, straight from the bottle.
Centre is Wattyl Teak Oil, straight from the can.
Right is HBO straight from the can.

Pics 3-5 show the appearance of the oils (in the same order as above) after 30 minutes incubation

Pics 6-8 show the timber after the second incubation and sanding and a brisk rub down with a soft cotton cloth.

The sanding regime for wet sanding used the same ETS150/3 with no vacuum and using Festool pads 400, 500,800,1000,1200,1500,2000 and 4000 grit. The pads were either Brilliant (or similar) or Platin 2.

The final picture is to demonstrate the satin finish showing clear grain pattern. No loss of character.

So at the end of the actual oiling and hard burnishing, there is very little to separate the three oils. All give great apparent results. I will perform the functional tests on Saturday morning and post the results on Sat. afternoon. My gut feeling is that it won't matter which oil you use, you'll get a robust satin finish showing great grain differentiation.

Regards,

Rob

[LGS]

Today I performed several tests to evaluate BLO, Wattyl Teak Oil and Hard Burnishing Oil, to see if it is possible that the Wattyl product may contain BLO or Tung Oil, or only Tung Oil.
Results suggest that either Tung or BLO may be in the Wattyl product as all three behave in a similar manner.
The test performed were:
1. Pour cold water on the surface and allow to sit for 5 minutes
2. Pour near boiling water on the surface and allow to stand for 5 minutes.
3. Sit a pot of boiling water on top of the surface for 5 minutes
4. Use Spray and Wipe directly onto the surface and wipe off within 45 seconds.

After each test the surface was checked for fading, blistering, warping or any other changes to the pre test condition of the finish.

All three oils behaved exactly the same. No changes were observed after any change in conditions. Therefore I say that Tung Oil or Boiled Linseed Oil could be used to provide a resilient finish to timber.
Bear in mind that 48 hrs is probably a worst case scenario, as it would be more likely that people would give the oil up to 5 days to cure.
This shows the advantage of Hard Burnishing.
Figures 1- show the surfaces during and after testing. In all examples, BLO is to the left (first), Wattyl Oil is centre (second) and HBO is to the right (third)

Figs. 23-25 Appearance of the surfaces after 48 hrs, pre testing
Figs. 20-22 Cold water on each surface.
Figs. 17-19. Surface after CW.
Figs. 14-16. Hot water on each surface
Figs. 11-13 Post Hot water
Figs. 10. Radiant heat (pot) on BLO surface.(The two others were treated the same)
Figs. 7-9. Surface post HW
Figs. 4-6 Spray and Wipe on each surface.
Figs. 1-3. Post Spray and Wipe.

One more thing to do. That is to see how the surfaces look after a week and see if there are any changes to the surface which may exclude an oil from the experiment.

Regards,

Rob (Phew!)

[rsser]

Appreciate the testing you've done.

What BLO brand and what contents can you say?

[LGS]

Hi Ern,
It's always interesting to see how different oils react to the hard burnishing process. I'm glad to have helped clarify a situation.

The Oil I used is "Sceneys" Boiled Linseed Oil. It's been on my shelf for about 4 years. As far as I can tell, its pure BLO. I have another bottle which contains dryers, but there's nothing on this bottle to indicate additives. Perhaps we should look up the MSDS.

You can find the MSDS here (http://www.sceneys.com.au/default/msds). There are metals in the oil to aid drying, but this is the same for all BLO's.

I used the oil straight from the bottle and it was quite viscous. But unlike other oils (Pure Tung Oil eg) it didn't impact on the movement of the sander during the process. I would think you could dilute it down maybe 1:3 with White Spirit, but I don't see a real advantage...unless you want to save money. If anyone decides that they want to do this, Test it first!! It's not something I would do.
A note as well, you get no smell of linseed after the sanding and curing is done.

I'll post some pics of the week old cured samples um..next week!

Regards,

Rob

[rsser]

Rob, just a query.

You raised the matter of hardening time ....

With some products that polymerise and harden, wouldn't weeks rather than hours be a better test of water resistance?

Appreciate that his would add a considerable overhead to your work.

[LGS]

Hi Ern,

Not really an issue. The advantage of hard burnishing is that you allow the oil to soak into the timber, then when you start wet sanding, you generate heat, which causes polymerization of the oil in the wood. So you expect that about two -five days should be all you need to test the finish. If the finish hadn't taken after 48 hours, I would have expected to see damage or discolouration when it was wet and definitely when attacked with the Spray and Wipe. The result after say 3 weeks should only be better.
However, since I have the board still sitting around, it's no big deal to test again at three weeks.
In the interim, I'll post pics of the board as time goes by up until the next round of testing.

Regards,

Rob

[rsser]

Thanks Rob.

I'd understood polymerisation (cross-linking) to take time but you're saying heat speeds it up.

And I took hard burnishing to be the same as wet sanding (a relic of my time with Organoil HBO).

[wood hacker]

Thanks Rob.

I'd understood polymerisation (cross-linking) to take time but you're saying heat speeds it up.

And I took hard burnishing to be the same as wet sanding (a relic of my time with Organoil HBO).

Rough rule of thumb is every 10°C increase in temperature doubles any reaction rate. So 20°C increase in temp is 4 times the reaction and so on.

[LGS]

Hi Ern,
Wet sanding does give you polymerisation, due to the heat from the friction generated by the sanding. But there is no doubt that the heat generated does hard burnish (where burnishing would be giving the oil a good vigorous rub) so that you get a result in less time and less effort. The interesting thing about all this is that you can use just about any oil that doesn't have Poly or some hardeners in it to achieve the hard burnish.

Grab some BLO and try sanding dry up to 400g then use a 500 or 600 and then a 1200 and if you can a 1500 as well. Even if you can get to 1000, you'll start to see a great result.

I think you'll find it takes less time and less effort than you expect to give a beautiful finish. Let me know how it goes. Oh! And remember to use a ROS, not an orbital. The orbital won't really generate enough heat.

Thanks Wood Hacker for the timely note.:2tsup:

Regards,

Rob

[LGS]

Here are the pics of the timber after one week of drying and hardening.
Figs 1-3. Are BLO, Wattyl and HBO in that order.
Figs 4-6. Are the three oils (same order as above) with cold water applied and allowed to sit for 5 minutes.
Figs 7-9. Are the three oils post water treatment (same order)
Figs 10. Is the three oils all with Spray and Wipe added. This was allowed to sit for 3 minutes before wiping off.
Figs' 11-13. Are the 3 oils after wiping off the Spray and Wipe. (same order as above)

There is no apparent grain lifting and still no damage inflicted by either cold water or Spray and Wipe on any of the oils.

Do we really need to go to three weeks do you think? I'm happy to do it, but is it necessary?

Regards,

Rob

[rsser]

Thanks.

No, I don't see any advantage in more hardening.

Would be interested in seeing what say 4 hours of wetting did, or a few drops of wine.

[LGS]

Hi Ern,

I'll put some red wine on the oils and sit a glass in the middle of it for four hours. If the oils survive that, they'll survive anything!
Publish the results later today.

Regards,

Rob

[LGS]

Hi all,
OK..to finish the testing, I have done the following.

I incubated the board with the three oils on it with a splash of Penfolds Koonunga Hill Cab Sav 2010.
In addition i put a small beer glass inverted on each sample to allow a ring to form, such as one would see on a table after a raucous party.
The samples were then incubated on the bench at Room Temp for 4 hours.

At this time the wine had dried onto the samples, except for the area around the lip of the glass.

The samples were then wiped down with a damp kitchen sponge and then cleaned with Spray and Wipe.
After 10 minutes, results were noted. Then again after 20 minutes.

Results:

1. The sample of HBO showed absolutely no sign of the red wine as a ring or as a smudge elsewhere on the sample, both at 10 minutes and 20 minutes post Spray and Wipe. The wood was in perfect condition.

2. Both the BLO and the Wattyl Teak oil showed clear rings of darker colour at 10 minutes post Spray and Wipe, but this was gone at 20 minutes.

So my conclusion is, that if you want to finish a high traffic area table or "thing", then HBO is the go. For items under less stress, you could burnish either BLO or Wattyl Teak Oil.

My routine regime is to use HBO on Dining tables and Coffee tables, but use the Wattyl Teak Oil on other items such as boxes. The finish is impossible to differentiate.

Figures below show the relevant data.

Pic. 1. The three samples with the red wine and glasses in place at t=0.
Pics. 2-4. show the individual glasses and wine on the board at t= 4 hours. You can see the dried wine residue and the clear ring of wet wine.
Pic. 5 shows the rings of wine where the glasses were placed on the three samples.
Pics 6-8 Show the samples after wiping down then washed with Spray and Wipe and left for 10 minutes. You can see the dark rings on the HBO and Wattyl oil.
Pics 9-11. Show the samples after 20 minutes drying time. Though it is possible to imagine that there is still evidence of darkness in a ring pattern on the BLO and Wattyl samples, but looking at the board directly, there is no evidence of a stain on either sample.

So what do you think of Hard Burnishing as a way of protecting wood without the need for Polyurethane? Finish is smooth and resilient, and being that the HBO and Wattyl oil at least are penetrating oils, small problems can be fixed by wiping a small amount of the oil of choice over the damaged section and thus alleviate the situation.
If any one in Melbourne wants to see the board, I'm happy to show it to you. If anyone in other states wants to see it, I'll post it to you, but I want it back

If any one wants to do one on one training, I'm up for it, at a reasonable cost.

Regards,

Rob

[rsser]

Impressive.

Thanks Rob.

[Dengue]

Well done Rob, very impressive. :2tsup:

To wrap it up and do the study justice, would you like to give us a summary of your key findings, and your conclusions?

[old_picker]

back to the OP - i don't believe Cabots DO has changed much if at all - i didn't realise the directions had changed
i still use the same technique i always have and it works as well as it always has
sand with an orbital sander up to 2500 grit using wet'n'dry from 400
by then the timber will be reflecting light -final sand is with the back of wet'n'dry paper -
reflectivity increases by 2-3 times - a soft sheen if you like - its now burnished

no danish has got any where near the job up to this point
then i start in with danish and flood the surfaces liberally and leave for about 5 mins
then rub it off quite vigorously with a soft rag or paper towels - the paper towels seem to add more sheen
leave 12-24 hours and repeat twice more
leave for approx 7 days in a warm room and then go over it with wiping varnish maybe 2 coats max 3
by this time the DO has gone off pretty well and doesnt smell
i actually think the wiping varnish spoils it a fraction but it really seals off the timber
i prefer the danish without the WV

it always looks fabulous and IMHO if someone is going to put glasses of wine or a cuppa tea straight onto an oiled finish they don't deserve to have that beautiful look-
better off with that stuff you pour onto bench tops and sets like glass or at least neat polyurethane

[LGS]

Well old picker,
It's always good to hear other peoples finishing methods. How do you know you have actually burnished the oil into the timber? Why the varnish? It makes it effectively not an oil finish and more like "the plastic stuff you pour on tables" Good to see you realise the advantage of using high grit papers when you sand
Personally and only personally, I prefer to have just the oil and with it the durability that comes with true burnishing. (which , by the way is more that wet and dry sanding)
Again, great to see your method, but probably wouldn't use it.

LGS

[old_picker]

Well old picker,
It's always good to hear other peoples finishing methods. How do you know you have actually burnished the oil into the timber? Why the varnish? It makes it effectively not an oil finish and more like "the plastic stuff you pour on tables" Good to see you realise the advantage of using high grit papers when you sand
Personally and only personally, I prefer to have just the oil and with it the durability that comes with true burnishing. (which , by the way is more that wet and dry sanding)
Again, great to see your method, but probably wouldn't use it.

LGS

the timber is burnished before the Danish goes on burnishing is another work for polishing - you can burnish many things to get a soft sheen
seen it done on pottery - see samian ware - roman empire ceramics
the wiping varnish is an added precaution against beer and sweat - i am finishing guitars this way

[LGS]

Good. So you'll appreciate what hard burnishing certain oils does. Certainly it polishes , but it also polymerises the oil within The timber which gives the durability I speak of. So all I can say is yet get a nice finish, but it' not in anyway the same as what I do . Horses for courses I guess.

[old_picker]

Good. So you'll appreciate what hard burnishing certain oils does. Certainly it polishes , but it also polymerises the oil within The timber which gives the durability I speak of. So all I can say is yet get a nice finish, but it' not in anyway the same as what I do . Horses for courses I guess.

not it is not the same - but it is what works in my workshop for me - i am not saying there is a comparison between the way you do it and the way i do it
my point is burnishing is a generic term that can be applied to various materials and methods - it does not relate particularly to wood or oil or both together
you can burnish a given material without the use of oil - you have chosen a method that involves both wood and oil

defined
burnish - verb
gerund or present participle: burnishing
polish (something, especially metal) by rubbing.
"highly burnished armour"
synonyms:polish (up), shine, brighten, rub up/down, buff (up), smooth, glaze;

[LGS]

All I'm saying is that your method wil not give a durable result using oil only. What works for you is just fine.

[old_picker]

All I'm saying is that your method will not give a durable result using oil only. What works for you is just fine.

if i may i would like to ask a question
if i need to remove the cabots DO i generally have to sand it off - no solvent seems to remove it - usually only a small area but it takes a bit of work
ie if my signature gets smudged i may want to take it back to bare wood and redo it
have you any suggestions as to what might remove it??
tried paint stripper, thinners, acetone etc etc

[LGS]

Hi Ray,
I
'm afraid that I gave Cabot's DO one try several years ago. It didn't work well with the heat caused by the friction of the sander, which led me to believe that it contained Polyurethane. If I need to dilute Tung Oil, I use White Spirit and sand back with a high grit to remove any oil where I don't want it.You might find that gentle ROS sanding with say, 400 or 800g may take some of the DO away Ideally I think you need something that will soften the PU. I think maybe Turps would do the trick.

Good Luck,

Regards,

Rob

[old_picker]

i always knew it contained PU - there are some other hardeners also of which only cabots know the details
definitely not designed as a friction finish for sure - it is designed to soak in and the precat PU goes hard inside the cellular structure of the wood
i guess this is why it is hard to get off

i have compared cabots DO to standard DO mix which is roughly 1 BLO 1 PU 1 turps or white spirit
found it a very soft finish compared to cabots DO which dries very tough after about a week
the home brew is quite a looker even though though it is susceptible to liquids

i use Cabots DO on finger boards - i have played particular instruments with Cabots DO treated fingerboards constantly for several years without it wearing
constant abrasion from the steel strings and sweat from the fingers will eat all but the toughest finishes
also use it on amplifier cabinets and it makes an excellent looking finish that wont chip and flake

the main attraction is that it is so easy to apply - i can coat and rub off a cabinet [520x420x300] in 10 minutes 3x 10 = 30 minutes total for finish
as i understand it the friction oil finish is a lot of work unless you are turning - then it becomes quite easy apparently
IMHO the friction oil finish is the most handsome of all finishes

[LGS]

I can certainly understand why you use the finish you do, I have a pair of Matons, a CW80 that I bought new in '77 and an ECJ85, which I bought in 1996. The difference in finish is vast. The CW80 is really showing chips and dullness now, but the ECJ is still pristine, despite heavy usage.

Here's an Amp case I did for a guy a couple of years ago. Tassie Blackwood, finger joints and Hard Burnished Wattyl Teak Oil finish.

Regards,

Rob

[old_picker]

nice - how long did it take to do the burnished finish?

[LGS]

It took about an hour-hour and a half. Half an hour of that time is allowing the oil to soak into the wood. Dry sand from 100-400 (150,180,240 as well) You only need to sand up and back 10 times to get adequate friction to heat the oil that has penetrated into the wood. Wet sand is 400,800,1200,1500,2000 and 4000, but anything like 1500 and higher will give a great finish. These last two pads are microfibre and can be washed and reused probably up to about 10-15 times. There are people on here who have wet sanded to 12000!!
Once I've finished the wet sand, I wipe down thoroughly with a dry clean whit cloth. The finish is then durable enough to give the results I documented earlier in this forum. Overnight if you are feel happier about it.

So its a reasonably quick method of providing a resilient finish to nice timber.

I use Wattyl Scandinavian (Natural Teak) oil, because I think it brings out subtleties in the wood that DO seems to mask.

Regards,

Rob

[old_picker]

you have some interesting perspectives on polymerisation and friction finishing
thanks for your time in discussing your methods with me

[LGS]

No problem, Ray, hope it's been useful.

Regards,

Rob