English vs American

[Bushmiller]

In the thread below, where Derek Cohen has supplied one of his very informative reviews on the new HNT Dado Plane, the subject came up as to whether a dado, which is the american term, should be referred to as that. In Australia we traditionally called them housing joints or, in building, trenched joints.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/review-hnt-gordon-dado-plane-161699/

Rather than hijack Derek's review I thought that we might be able to discuss this here instead. Of course this is not limited to housing /dado joints, but anything where there is a discrepancy between australian and american interpretation of the english language. If we can confine it a little to woodworking that would be good, but I'm not really hopeful there :wink: .

Just on the original issue something to consider is that Terry Gordon's plane is indeed called a dado plane. This I expect is because he hopes to sell his product to the american market and that markey in particular likes to feel comfortable with the name.

The big issue is "Should we maintain independency of our version of english?"

Having loaded the gun, I propose to sit back and duck the bullets :) .

Regards
Paul

[A Duke]

That's a groovy start.

How about Rabbit and Rebate ?

Regards

[FenceFurniture]

Just stand that new granite boulder of yours on its side (bottom facing the fusillade), and you'll be right for the bullets.

Terry does indeed face a conundrum. The word Dado means nothing to me at all in a descriptive sense, but "trench" obviously does. However, the name of "Cross grain Trenching Plane" is a tad cumbersome. O'course, Terry has far more to worry about than pleasing us pedantic old farts - he wants to sell 'em. So, given that we know what a Dado is, and a name to satisfy us is cumbersome, I say that he's given them the best name he could under the circumstances. Commercial realities and all that.

[ch!ppy]

Greg, well i'd agree he has marketing to the USA to consider, and i figure that must of been at least part of his reason, but trenching plane is just fine with me, it doesnt have to have 'cross grain' written in front. because a plane that grooves with the grain is called a plough plane, (or a plow plane to the USA). . . could go on but not wanting to confuse it further. . .:)

cheers
chippy

[FenceFurniture]

Greg, well i'd agree he has marketing to the USA to consider, and i figure that must of been at least part of his reason, but trenching plane is just fine with me, it doesnt have to have 'cross grain' written in front. because a plane that grooves with the grain is called a plough plane, (or a plow plane to the USA), if on the edge its a rebate plane (fillister etc) of course in Oz


cheers
chippy

No worries then Chippy - Trenching Plane it is.

[jimbur]

Well Paul, you could always plead the fifth.:D And yes, some idiots do use it across here.

[Bushmiller]

Just stand that new granite boulder of yours on its side (bottom facing the fusillade), and you'll be right for the bullets.



What a marvellous idea :D . I am looking for uses to justify the purchase :cool: . I'll bet it will withstand anything up to 50cal. You blokes can be pretty firey and I'm thinking perhaps I should have bit the bullet (sorry) and forked out for the larger block.

Here's another one for you. We talk in terms of timber as 100 x 50 whereas americans would say 50 x by 100 :? . Better make that 2 x 4 :- . You may recall that they put the month first in the calendar too. Is this done just to be different, cantankerous or just plain bloody minded?

I know that IanW in the other thread alluded to the language being dynamic and in a constant state of flux. I am with that whilever new product requires description, but why change for the sake of it.

We all have a spot of bother with the english of Shakespeare. We have even more of head scratch with Chaucer's english and by the time we delve back to old english it is unrecogniseable and incomprehensible to us.

That was because various nations kept bashing up the poms and imposing their language on them. This is not the case with the americans, at least not the bashing part, well not us....deep water, help, help.

Of course we do have our own Dados (Cameron and Andrew and there may be another floating somewhere.)

Regards (deeply entrenched, not dadoed, behind a brick wall somewhere in Oz)
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

....deep water, help, help.
Paul

Can you swim?


Of course we do have our own Dados (Cameron and Andrew and there may be another floating somewhere.)
Lachlan.

[wheelinround]

Dado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dado_%28architecture%29) Architecture

Dado (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dado_%28joinery%29) Furniture

Why not Grove, Gutter, Channel, Trench, Slot.

[Scott]

The big issue is "Should we maintain independency of our version of english?"l

Wrong way to pose the question which should of read, "should Americans be allowed to use their own hacked version of the English language". Seriously, when I read an American website I think they're illiterate, phonetically spelling everything is immature. I consider the way we speak is historically correct. Screw the way the yanks spell and write :D

[jimbur]

Wrong way to pose the question which should of read, "should Americans be allowed to use their own hacked version of the English language". Seriously, when I read an American website I think they're illiterate, phonetically spelling everything is immature. I consider the way we speak is historically correct. Screw the way the yanks spell and write :D
Too right mate. Everyone else is a drongo.:D

[IanW]

Hmm, lots of heat, but little light! Who says the way we spell or name anything is "right", or even has historical precedence? We Aussies have corrupted & added to the English language we inherited, both enriching & impoverishing it, depending on point of view.

Spelling is a real can of worms! A man who was much cleverer with the language than any of us (George Bernard Shaw) thought English spelling was idiotic and not only doesn't reflect the way a large number of words are pronounced, it's hopelessly inconsistent. He offered a large amount of money to anyone who managed to get phonetic spelling widely accepted. No-one has ever claimed the prize, since surprise, surprise, no-one will agree on whose phones get spelt. So spare a thought for the poor sods who have to learn English as a foreign language!

I used to fuss about the 'purity' of the language, but it slowly dawned on my dim wits that I was fighting a pointless & losing battle. As someone has suggested already, if we could visit our rellies of a few hundred years back, we'd be mutually unintelligible, and likewise if we could go a few hundred years into the future, no doubt. The only languages that remainh static are those no longer in daily use. I do resent the corruption of technical terms because it reduces the precision they are supposed to impart. However substituting one word for another isn't quite the same, as long as we agree it means the same thing. Let's face it, from time to time, certain nations have been dominant and stamped their lingo on large parts of the planet - ask the Italians, Spanish, Portugese, French & Romanians (have I left anyone out?) if the Romans ever did anything for them. :;

Oh yeah, & how 'Dado' came to be applied to a trench is anyone's guess. It's original meaning, which Wheelin' has directed us to, is equivalent to 'wainscotting' (which in turn is a corruption of middle English for wagon sides!). But it clearly was applied to trenching at some stage in Nth America, and since they are now the second-largest nation of English users (after India), I guess they will have a bit of influence on what gets rit & sed in all the various media dealing with woodwork for the forseeeable future.... :U

Cheers,

[pmcgee]

It's a great topic ... over the years I've heard Radio National (Lingua Franca and other programs) and the academic lady from "Can We Help" - Kate Burridge Can We Help? - KATE BURRIDGE (http://www.abc.net.au/tv/canwehelp/txt/s2860930.htm)

She used to be on local ABC radio regularly, and she is great - can reel off examples and counter-examples from the distant past when people ring in to complain about grammar and spelling.

I have heard that US 'english' is a 'purer' or at least earlier form as it was taken out of the UK context back at ... 17xx? help me out here ... and that at some stage (1800s? 1900s?) an educational philosophy was applied to set a national standard and deliberately try to make it more uniform and simpler than the somewhat wacky way we and the poms have it ... so "color" "splendor" "realize" etc

But I definitely prefer our way ... the other system might have some logic to it, but it has been tainted - nay ruined - by association with americans :D (snicker)

I'm a bit indifferent to much of it, but I will not use "z" instead of "s" :) and I won't use "vise" ... which is curious but I'm sticking to it. :)

I understand 'vise' has a specificity to it, but
- the yanks use it
- I grew up with 'vice'
- the word looks perfectly fine on the page
... I'm sticking to it.

(Do you find some word stick out and irk you when they are 'wrong' ? ... eg 'realize')

I hope this entire forum drives our US friends halfway batty :)
It's like broadcasting the BBC into Burma or North Korea ... so they can learn to speak and spell proper :D

No one has mentioned 'Aluminum' yet ... I found out that they spell it that way ... thus dooming themselves to look stupid forever.

I'm not getting excited over all thus - I'm really not - "Centre, centre, centre, centre, centre" !!

And **PETROL** is NOT A **GAS** !!! :~

Sorry. I found the pills ... I'll be ok.
Paul

[pmcgee]

I'm not getting excited over all thus

Looks like I just started a thread on NZ english :U

Just kidding ... let's get some Fush and Chups.


Two other quick points ...

Watching the Canadian woodworker - Rob Cosman - you hear "aboot" for "about" and interestingly get the "th" sound in both "leng-th" and "heigh-th". I think the RoughCut TV guy says that also.

Our spoken language has certainly changed - when I hear old recordings from the early 1900s - re the wars or Billy Hughes or just ordinary people there is an "old australian" sound to it ... you know ... like anyone from Queensland today.
:)
:p
:duck:

[A Duke]

The one that gets me is zee instead of zed.
(Some one will be calling this thread raciest next) Our American brothers will be waking up soon and the we will be sorted out.
Regards

[artme]

Ah yes! One of my hobby horses - language.

What we tend to forget, or perhaps don't even know about American English, is that it has preserved in general usage a number
of ""old fashioned"words. Diaper is one example.

Early in its history America was absorbing immigrants from many backgrounds. Many were illiterate and so spelling and grammar were
not always correct.

Language is changing evolving thing. Who wants to spend decades, as was done by the French Academy, to define the meaning of a single word?

How many are aware that commonly used words today are derived from words that have a different inference? Look at fantastic and terrific.

I don't like the word dado. It just seems odd.

As for slot we think of a narrow trench. It is actually a Scottish word tio describe the gap between a woman's breasts.

[rwbuild]

Well, me and the missus yaked about it for a while, chewed the fat and reckon that any drongo who lives in Oz needs to speak the local lingo so all our mates don't get in a blue, and if they do, we will give Blue and his cobbers a coee to sort the mob out.

To sort this dado thing before we get derailed will require a day, any day do, okedoke. Now I don't want to rabbit on about rebates and get stuck in a groove otherwise we will be ploughing through this subject and get entrenched in our own preferences and end up being housed in the dog house. :rolleyes:

[Bushmiller]

Now I don't want to rabbit on about rebates and get stuck in a groove otherwise we will be ploughing through this subject and get entrenched in our own preferences and end up being housed in the dog house. :rolleyes:

RW

I don't think rabbit will catch on here. Hasn't the government legislated against them? They are certainly personna non grata in QLD. Big signs as you cross the border :cool: . Nothing about dados that I've noticed :(.

Regards
paul

[derekcohen]

It is rabbet not rabbit ... and of course it is neither when it should be a rebate. :U

Regards from Perth

Derek

[lesmeyer]

During my 5 years of woodwork as a full time subject in high school in South Africa (British system), what everyone refers to as a dado was known as a housing joint. This was made using chisels and not the new fan-dangled dado planes or even electric routers for that matter. :U

Les

PS! my preferred method to make a housing joint today is using the electric router. (Festool OF1400 to be exact) :D

[ch!ppy]

During my 5 years of woodwork as a full time subject in high school in South Africa (British system), what everyone refers to as a dado was known as a housing joint. This was made using chisels and not the new fan-dangled dado planes or even electric routers for that matter. :U

Les

PS! my preferred method to make a housing joint today is using the electric router. (Festool OF1400 to be exact) :D


so out of , what, seven continents, so far only one, uses or refers to them (trenches) as dado's , north america, and we are meant to bow to that :U:U:U , give me a break!

[ch!ppy]

Hmm, lots of heat, but little light! Who says the way we spell or name anything is "right",

the civilised population is the common answer to that or the literacy of that field is recognised as legit, considering this is australia the publications and the tradespeople here fill those requirements better than anything else




or even has historical precedence?

the terms , trenching and or housing joints have enough historical precedence to firmly establish themselfs in australian history, dado's do not



We Aussies have corrupted & added to the English language we inherited, both enriching & impoverishing it, depending on point of view.


cant find a fault with that but i cant see how that influences why we are meant to call housing joints , dado's


Spelling is a real can of worms! A man who was much cleverer with the language than any of us (George Bernard Shaw) thought English spelling was idiotic and not only doesn't reflect the way a large number of words are pronounced, it's hopelessly inconsistent. He offered a large amount of money to anyone who managed to get phonetic spelling widely accepted. No-one has ever claimed the prize, since surprise, surprise, no-one will agree on whose phones get spelt. So spare a thought for the poor sods who have to learn English as a foreign language!

it sure doesn't take GBS to tell us that the english language is now muddled and corrupt but i am sure if he was located in australia, in his time he would respect and would call it a housing joint or trench due to his understanding of importance of correct terminology in reference to location

it is not about the pronunciation of words, it is about using the correct terms, it is not about the phonetics, it is about the words as a whole, i dont care what accent anyone has when they say the word!




I used to fuss about the 'purity' of the language, but it slowly dawned on my dim wits that I was fighting a pointless & losing battle. As someone has suggested already, if we could visit our rellies of a few hundred years back, we'd be mutually unintelligible, and likewise if we could go a few hundred years into the future, no doubt. The only languages that remainh static are those no longer in daily use. I do resent the corruption of technical terms because it reduces the precision they are supposed to impart.



its difficult to relate your comments to the topic at hand however housing joints if you were to speak of them could be considered a technical term in the field of WW...





However substituting one word for another isn't quite the same, as long as we agree it means the same thing. Let's face it, from time to time, certain nations have been dominant and stamped their lingo on large parts of the planet - ask the Italians, Spanish, Portugese, French & Romanians (have I left anyone out?) if the Romans ever did anything for them. :;





you can not simply interchange words because it confounds even the best minds,,,if agreed terms are used by mutual populations then there is no need to interchange from a different population (from the mouth of babes)


which means, in no short terms if they- are called housing joints or trenching they dont confuse the whole thing by calling it a dado,



Oh yeah, & how 'Dado' came to be applied to a trench is anyone's guess. It's original meaning, which Wheelin' has directed us to, is equivalent to 'wainscotting' (which in turn is a corruption of middle English for wagon sides!). But it clearly was applied to trenching at some stage in Nth America, and since they are now the second-largest nation of English users (after India), I guess they will have a bit of influence on what gets rit & sed in all the various media dealing with woodwork for the foreseeable future.... :U

Cheers,



well i have probably never heard anything quite so ridiculous or unacceptable, to get the first bit out of the way just because the yanks are the biggest crowd on the block, doesnt mean you have to change your speech or values, hold on to your independence! surely you have earned it, i know i have, secondly wainscoting is not a corruption of anything, not in the slightest, it is a craft, a technique or a method, it simply ends up in a predicable pattern. i've done it hundreds and hundreds of times and will probably do it a hundred more before i'm gone, its quite pleasurable work

frankly i dont want my comments to taken out of context and i dont want to promote the term of dado, but basically dado's are timber going at right angles to another , nothing special about it, for every instance you could use the term dado i'm sure i can use a far nicer or more accurate term


cheers
chippy

[Bushmiller]

Chippy

I just need to clarify something here. Do you feel strongly about this subject :D ?

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

As for slot we think of a narrow trench. It is actually a Scottish word tio describe the gap between a woman's breasts.

The great divide. A bit like this thread. I can't say I've ever thought of them in that way. Lots of other ways. Are you sure it refered to breasts?

A strange race the Scottish, but wonderful. :) I'm not aware of them being renowned woodworkers, but if they did become accomplished I could see the language becoming very confused.

Regards
Paul

[A Duke]

It is rabbet not rabbit ... and of course it is neither when it should be a rebate. :U

Regards from Perth

Derek
My apologies.

[Koala-Man]

To sort this dado thing before we get derailed will require a day, any day do, okedoke. Now I don't want to rabbit on about rebates and get stuck in a groove otherwise we will be ploughing through this subject and get entrenched in our own preferences and end up being housed in the dog house. :rolleyes:

Don't you mean "kennel"?

[rwbuild]

Don't you mean "kennel"?

Yeh, kennel :D

[wheelinround]

Wonder what they call it in China? Middle East?

Farmers would call it a forrow after all you maybe using a plough plane to make one

[pmcgee]

I think I can get this one on the edge of the US english basket ...

When I started reading up about machinery and woodworking ... I struck the term 'planer' ... :rolleyes:

I seem to recall that (seriously) it was several weeks before the confusion really cleared and I understood there was:

- a jointer / planer / buzzer AND

- a planer / thicknesser

depending on what terms you liked to use.

Argh. This could be like some apprentice's test ...

"Go down to supplies for a Long (Weight/Wait)"

"We're gunna need some Elbow Grease"

"Get this to the Planer" ... :? ... cue double-take ...

Paul

[jimbur]

Paul, it gets really difficult when misspelling come into it as well.:D Still she'll be right.

[RETIRED]

Well, me and the missus yaked about it for a while, chewed the fat and reckon that any drongo who lives in Oz needs to speak the local lingo so all our mates don't get in a blue, and if they do, we will give Blue and his cobbers a coee to sort the mob out.

To sort this dado thing before we get derailed will require a day, any day do, okedoke. Now I don't want to rabbit on about rebates and get stuck in a groove otherwise we will be ploughing through this subject and get entrenched in our own preferences and end up being housed in the dog house. :rolleyes:You fair dinkum mate?:D

[rwbuild]

You fair dinkum mate?:D

Stone the crows, you betcha! :D

[rwbuild]

Argh. This could be like some apprentice's test ...

"Go down to supplies for a Long (Weight/Wait)"

"We're gunna need some Elbow Grease"

"Get this to the Planer" ... :? ... cue double-take ...

Paul

Then there is the old one of sending the apprentice bricky for a box of weep holes, only problem now is, yes, you can buy boxes of weep holes, plastic with a small mesh grid so the creepy crawlies cant get in... or out :D