Was Justice done?

[Sturdee]

Recently I was called to serve on a County Court jury in a criminal case arising from a horrendous motor vehicle collision that happened 5 ½ years ago.

The accused was charged with one count of culpable driving causing a death and two counts of negligently driving causing serious injury. The case lasted 6 days and in that time I saw the law in action from a different side. I now have a better understanding of courts sitting hours, as it was already hard to keep concentrating.

I also have even a greater respect for our police and emergency services that have to attend such collisions, it was bad enough seeing the photos of the crash site and hearing the pathologist and ER doctors describe the nature and extend of the injuries.

I still can’t understand how the accused, having received legal advice, waived his rights and ensured his conviction by giving evidence in his police interview which was played in court and entered into evidence.

The case has deeply affected me, not because of the guilty verdict, but I would have preferred if I were not called in this type of case. It goes without saying that I am even more determined to drive safely.

The law provides for a maximum sentence of 20 years and a max fine of $ 20,000. As such it is considered a very serious matter by the community. Today I found out that the accused was given a sentence of 4-½ years jail. No doubt the legal system has been served but was this sentence adequate.

Please bear in mind that a young innocent person died, another that was a bright go-getter now is unemployable as he has a limited mental attention span and the third has resumed his studies after an enforced 3 years break recovering from the collision.

So is an effective 2 years jail with 2-½ years parole sufficient to say that justice has been done. IMO NO.

What do you think?


Peter.

[craigb]

On the face of it no. But then I wasn't at the trial to hear the circumstances of the case.

It certainly sounds like a case you could do without being a member of the jury on though.

You were there though, how much would you have given him?

[Sturdee]

Craig,


That is what has been worrying me, what do I think is an apropriate sentence. How do you reconcile the legal system, as devised by societies do-gooders, with the need for justice for the community.


The case was horrific and I feel that justice would need a doubling of the sentence that was given. May be the judge knew better, I don't know.


Peter.

[bitingmidge]

I'm certainly no bleeding heart, but have to ask the question: What possible constructive use is sending a person like this to jail??

Incarcerate by all means, but what's wrong with the old "chain gang", road maintenance, vandalism repairs, some other truly productive sideline?

P
:cool:

[silentC]

Nah, our forefathers had it right. Public flogging, the stocks, garrotting, staking, hanging, the guillotine. These are deterrents. Not the slap on the wrist they give these days. I'd turn to a life of crime myself if it wasn't for the odd hours and the physical exercise aspect.

[outback]

From a slightly different view poin, and bear with me for obvious reasons.

Since August last year I have received regular subpoenas to attend court to give evidence on behalf of the prosecution. The case is/ will deal with a vehicle accident in which someone died. As head of the rescue service which attended, I must attend.

Whilst I'd rather not go at all, I like most others realise this is a **** poor attitude, and will go along.

The thing which gets my goat, is the regular subpoenas, and no notice from anyone that once again the case has been postponed. Should I have travelled the two hours to where the case is being heard each time, I'd have run up a fuel bill you coudn't jump over, let alone the money my business would have lost.

There are several sides to all stories, this is just another one.

[kiwigeo]

Nah, our forefathers had it right. Public flogging, the stocks, garrotting, staking, hanging, the guillotine. These are deterrents. Not the slap on the wrist they give these days. I'd turn to a life of crime myself if it wasn't for the odd hours and the physical exercise aspect.

All of the above should be applied to under arm bowlers!!

[kiwigeo]

Peter,

I agree the sentence seems inadequate but I hope youre not thinking that the leniency of the sentence had something to do with your performance as a juror. The jury's duty is to decide whether the defendant is guily or innocent. Deciding the punishment is up to the judge.

I admire people like you who do their bit and accept jury duty and....I havent done it myself but am dreading the day I do get the call. Im sure Id come out of it thinking exactly the same as you.

[Sturdee]

Since August last year I have received regular subpoenas to attend court to give evidence on behalf of the prosecution. The case is/ will deal with a vehicle accident in which someone died. As head of the rescue service which attended, I must attend.


I understand your annoyance. This case took 5 1/2 years to get to this stage.

First the delay whilst everyone recovered from their injuries, then the coroner's inquest and committal hearings. Justice moves very slowly, snails go faster then our legal system. Meanwhile you must wait and wait and wait............ :(


Peter

[ozwinner]

I'd turn to a life of crime myself if it wasn't for the odd hours and the physical exercise aspect.
IOU one green smooch, funny f12ker.

Al :D

[Sturdee]

I agree the sentence seems inadequate but I hope youre not thinking that the leniency of the sentence had something to do with your performance as a juror. The jury's duty is to decide whether the defendant is guily or innocent. Deciding the punishment is up to the judge..


I know our duty was only to decide guilty or not guilty, which we did, and the punishment was up to the judge.

But having heard all the evidence, like driving with one hand on the wheel the other resting on the window sill and supporing his head at 137k in a 80k zone, never looking through your front window and even seeing the intersection, but looking in the rear vision mirror to see if his mate was catching up, in a powerfull car that he only had for a few weeks, hearing the pathologist describing the deceased's injuries ( which took 10 minutes and were the most severe he had seen in 37 years ) makes me doubt that the sentence was adequate.


I admire people like you who do their bit and accept jury duty

Not much choice as I don't work fulltime, in any case the judge disallowed 3 requests for exemptions on the ground that they could have made alternate arrangements by selecting a period that was convenient.


Peter.

[beejay1]

Peter what an awful ordeal to have to sit through that, my sympathies mate.

The sentence does seem light in view of the horrific results of the drivers behaviour and one I suppose that the judge felt was the maximum he could impose. If for example the driver had been stopped before the accident and charged with speeding and dangerous driving he would only have been fined and possibly banned for a few months and maybe this one of those instances where the law finds it difficult to differentiate.
The driver, if hes a normal but very silly individual, and lets face it we were all guilty of a bit of stupidity in our young cab happy days, will have to live with what he did for the rest of his life and that I suspect will be a very difficult thing for him to do, so maybe the judge considered this as well.
Where I do feel the law is weak is in cases that involve drink and theft/joyriding, and I feel that there should be automatic life sentence in the event of death and something like a minimum of 5 years for injury caused. Also, such drivers should be banned from driving for life without exception as they are a menace to society.
Im not supporting the offender here Peter and maybe he could have been given a harsher sentence, I dont really know, but i reckon that the young man in question will have many sleepless nights for many years to come and hopefully, if he continues to drive, will remember what stupidity on the road can result in.
not an easy one for you to get over either Peter but dont dwell on it mate, its over.
regards, beejay1

http://community.webshots.com/user/eunos9

[Sturdee]

If for example the driver had been stopped before the accident and charged with speeding and dangerous driving he would only have been fined and possibly banned for a few months and maybe this one of those instances where the law finds it difficult to differentiate.


Beejay,

This is similar to what the defence counsel said in his closing statement and the judge in his charge to us directed us to ignore that for it is not correct and the issues are totally different.

We had to decide on the three elements of the charge, namely,

1. a person had died,

2. that the accused drove in such a way that he departed to a gross degree from the standard of care he owed to others ....................and that such driving merited criminal punishment.

3. The accused diving in the particular forbidden way was a substantial and operative cause of death.

Whether without the collision he would have got a fine etc was not relevant.


The reason I question the sentence is that in this state a few years back the average sentence for culpable driving was 4 1/2 years. Whilst I don't know the circumstances of the other cases the judge must have come to the view that this case was only average which seems to contradict the pathologists findings.


I don't intend to dwell on it and these posts are helping.


Let us all resolve to be more careful on the roads.


Peter.

[outback]

Let us all resolve to be more careful on the roads.

The most goodest thing I've heard from anyone for a long time. :)

[craigb]

All of the above should be applied to under arm bowlers!!

Fer chrissake it was 25 years ago. Build a bloody bridge and get over it :rolleyes: :D

[Tonyz]

I Did! 27 years ago I built a small bridge over the 'rough' lake and I'am still here.
Sorry Sturdee
Tonto

[bsrlee]

Unfortunately justice cannot really be done in cases like these. Even if you chopped off Bozo's arms & legs to stop him re-offending in future, someone would have to look after his carcass - even trying to feed him alive to some hungry Lions or Tigers would only cause them trauma, even if it made good TV.

And nothing can give the victims back their lives.

As for Outback: I hope you have written to the Police and/or the DPP, and politely informed them that you will require ALL expenses paid - preferably in advance, including travelling expenses to and from the court, accomodation expenses & meals. And with the constant re-scheduling of the matter, which appears to be in their hands, you will expect to be paid the standard daily rate for all the cancelled dates as well, due to the damage to your business/ annual leave etc., and that if this reasonable request is not met, you may be unable to give evidence in answer to the subpoena.

Not only is legal & something you are entitled to, but it should result in some squarking in the hen house when it arrives. And you are entitled to refuse to accept or answer the sub-poena if they don't guarantee all expenses. If in doubt, check with the pro-bono solicitor at your nearest Local Court when it is sitting.

[kiwigeo]

Fer chrissake it was 25 years ago. Build a bloody bridge and get over it :rolleyes: :D

Come on....you cant expect a kiwi to log into a forum, see that avatar glaring at me and not say something :)

[silentC]

Geez, I know that Kiwis can be a bit slow on the uptake, but that took forever :D

Phew, I can finally change my avatar again, Kiwi baiting expedition over. :rolleyes:

[Iain]

Theres probably a few closet kisis that haven't bitten yet.
Back to the serious side, I have been to several of these cases and whilst we appear complacent in court, it's more a case of seen it all before and we just don't react any more, that you would notice anyway.
I sometimes felt for the defence counsel who had to try to get his client of the hook and wonder how he really felt.

[DaveInOz]

In criminal activities there is no justice, there is retribution, there is punishment and there is revenge, we just call it justice when we feel that we have been vindicated.

If you guys keep making me think I'm gunna do a brain valve :eek:

[smidsy]

Two and a half years for a life - no way is it adequate.

The law in this country needs to changed so that cars are treated as the weapon they are. Hurting or killing someone with a car should be no different to hurting or killing someone with a gun or a knife.

Paul

[Peter R]

From a slightly different view poin, and bear with me for obvious reasons.

Since August last year I have received regular subpoenas to attend court to give evidence on behalf of the prosecution. The case is/ will deal with a vehicle accident in which someone died. As head of the rescue service which attended, I must attend.

Whilst I'd rather not go at all, I like most others realise this is a **** poor attitude, and will go along.

The thing which gets my goat, is the regular subpoenas, and no notice from anyone that once again the case has been postponed. Should I have travelled the two hours to where the case is being heard each time, I'd have run up a fuel bill you coudn't jump over, let alone the money my business would have lost.

There are several sides to all stories, this is just another one.
I have been subpoenaed three times in my life, and each time I was given expenses...Does this not apply to you people, the front line Volunteers, which I preseume you are, as anyone else in a job is paid by the employer.

You are allowed to plead financial dififculty, surely...even just once to bring this to the attention of the Justice system and the public.

Peter R