Be very careful.....

[TORB]

I should preface this post by saying that I have read and fully understand the rules of this site. The information contained in this post is factual. At no stage has the supplier disagreed with one thing I have stated in my email exchanges with them. I will also disclose my full name and address to prove that I am genuine, also absolve this site for any defaming action (not that I believe there is any deformation of the supplier as I am just stating the facts.

I post this information as a warning to others about the pitfalls of using eBay, even where the supplier has a good record, and also thinking that PayPal offers blanket protection.

At 12.11pm on 27 September I finalised a sale on eBay for the purchase of a Dewalt Biscuit Jointer. (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320741762598) Cost was $365 plus $16.30 freight making a total of $381.30. It was a good price, but the price was not the major reason I bought from this vendor. It was because the listing stated, "Orders received by 4pm would be posted the same day (via Australia Post.)" It was also listed with three units available (in stock.) This was the critical factor as I needed the Jointer urgently and knew that normal delivery time to me from Sydney by Oz Parcel Post to my PO Box is by 9 am the next day.

As the goods were not at the post office the next morning, and I had not received an eBay shipping confirmation, I rang Sydney Tools to find out what was going on.

Here is the resulting flow of correspondence....

Sent Date: 28-Sep-11 10:42:10 AEST
Dear sydney.tools,

I refer to my purchase yesterday. You listing states orders placed prior to 4pm will be sent that day.

This morning I rang to get the tracking number as it was needed urgently. The fellow I spoke to told me it had not been invoiced, but would be invoiced and sent today. I informed him that if that was the case the order was to be cancelled.

He then informed me that the person who actually "did this work" would be in at 12 noon and they would call me back.

Later this morning, I received a call from the same chap who said the order shipped yesterday and would be delivered by AAE tommorow. He also provided a tracking number. I found this 'unusual' as I have had many orders delivered by AAE & its always a next day, not two day delivery.

I rang AAE and quoted the tracking number. AAE advised they had no record of it, and that is probably because it had not been picked up yet.

Therefore, please cancel the order and refund the accordingly. If it is sent, delivery will be refused.

Sent: Wednesday, 28 September 2011 4:29 PM

Good afternoon Ric,

Our apologies for your inconvenience. I will follow up that for you and will organise to refund for you.

Once again, we are terribly sorry for any inconvenience.

Regards,
Angela - sydney.tools

Sent Date: 28-Sep-11 17:23:48 AEST
Dear sydney.tools,

Hi Angela,

Thanks for the response. The guy I was talking with was either deliberately telling me porkie pies, or clearly, doesn't know what he is doing. This is the first time I have dealt with Sydney Tools and needless to say, I was not impressed. However, your cordial response and apology goes a long way to rectifying the damage.

Luckily (for me) I unexpectedly had to go to Narellan this morning so was able to pick up the item from a competitor.

Sent: Thursday, 29 September 2011 10:54 AM

Good Morning Ric,

Unfortunatly your order had been sent Via AAE and the tracking number is xxxxx. I can see from the system the order had been made on 27th sep and your order was delivered to your place on 29th sep morning. The status of your order says 'Delivered and ready for collection at Post Office: MOSS VALE POST SHOP 9-15 CLARENCE ST MOSS VALE 2577'.

just wondering if you are happy to keep this.

Regards,
Angela - sydney.tools

Sent Date: 29-Sep-11 19:05:02 AEST
Dear sydney.tools,

Unbelievable! You guys are completely out of administrative control!!

On the 28th when I rang AAE they had no record of that racking number and said that was probably because it had not been picked up yet. The tracking number log now shows it was picked up from your place at 5.11pm on 28th. That means, as I suspected, and indicated in a previous email, the guy I spoke to was blatantly telling lies about the status of the order.

In addition, it was sent after I had cancelled it both over the phone and in writing. And you even responded to my cancellation email prior to the goods being picked up by AAE.

Obviously you also don't pay any attention to what is communicated in emails either. In my response to you last evening, I said, "Luckily (for me) I unexpectedly had to go to Narellan this morning so was able to pick up the item from a competitor."

In summary;
You failed to ship the goods as per the listing.
Your staff member blatantly lied to me.
Your firm, after having been requested twice to cancel the order failed to do so,
You have been advised that I have purchased the item from a competitor.

So, do you seriously think I would want the item, or indeed ever wish to deal with Sydney Tools again?

Its your problem to get it back.

Please issue a refund immediately or I will post a negative eBay rating.
Please issue a refund immediately or I will post a negative eBay rating.
Sent Date: 29-Sep-11 19:05:02 AEST
Hi Rick

I apologise for this issue and I will be following up promptly and getting back to you.

Thank you and your patience is very much appreciated.

Kind regards

Matthew
Sydney Tools Pty Ltd
Customer Service Supervisor

After having heard nothing, and considering that in my experience, Sydney Tools failed to act on anything requested, I subsequently raised a Dispute on PayPal. As that was ignored by Sydney Tools I then escalated that dispute to a Claim.


As I had supplied the emails flow to PayPal, I was quite surprised to get a knock back for a refund from them. It appears from what they stated in their email, that as long as the seller can provide 'proof of shipment', (even if the goods are not received) then a refund will not be issued by them. So, the buyer protection may not be as good as most people think.

Very early on Tuesday morning (8 Nov) I sent an email to Jason at Sydney Tools, (the designated PayPal contact for PayPal). It stated that they knew the facts behind the case and had till the close of business on Thursday 10th to process a full refund or I would be taking out a summons to recover the money on Friday 11th.



The email flow continues.....


Sent: Tuesday, 8 November 2011 9:16 AM

Good Morning Rick

We have received your email regarding the refund for the Dewalt Biscuit Machine purchased on September 27 2011.

We shipped on 28 September via overnight delivery and provided tracking number xxxxxx which delivered and awaiting collection from Moss Vale post shop on 29 September.

We have now received the item back to our store and we are more than happy to provide you with a refund of $365 for the item, less the $16.30 charged for delivery.

Can you please confirm if you are happy with this and we will arrange this refund for you immediately.

Thank you very much for your time and I look forward to hearing back from you.

Kind regards

Matty

My response that morning stated....

Hi Matty,

Your calculations in relation to freight are incorrect, but that’s not surprising as Sydney Tools have failed to do anything correctly in relation to their dealings with me.

I would be satisfied if the refund included freight. As I have stated numerous times, the order had been cancelled, your staff lied about the status of the order, and then sent the goods AFTER the order had been cancelled both verbally and in writing. You have also had over a month since the goods were returned to you, and despite written assurances that a refund would be processed, it has not been done.

The only reason a freight charge was incurred was because of your company’s failure to cancel the order, and I refuse to pay for your inefficiency. The total I paid including freight was $381.30 and that is the amount I expect to have refunded. This whole thing is now a matter of principle, and unless I receive a full refund, including freight, I will take legal action as outlined in my previous email without further notice.

End of the email flow.

I received no response, so I guess they are happy for me to take out a summons, which they will then ever have to defend, or pay up, including the cost of the summons.

Prior to posting this, I just had a look at the neutral and negative ratings for Sydney Tools on eBay. Almost all of the recent ones complain of poor communication and or delivery times. It is also interesting to note that their negative and neutral ratings have gone from 2.12% over the last six months, to 3.85% in the last month. Those numbers may look low, but in reality it is an increase of 81%, so something must be happening there.

One would hope that their in-store service was better than their internet service.

OK, now please wait whilst I put on my flame-proof underwear, as I am bound to cop flack and have people say its an over-reaction. I will let those posts go and not respond to them as I am not looking for a fight.

However,in my opinion retailers who don't keep their commitments, blatantly lie to their customers and provide shoddy service should be held accountable. Keeping them accountable is the only thing that will stop the poor behaviour. Its easier to put up with poor service and do nothing, but that will not stop the problem.


Ric Einstein
PO Box 455
Moss Vale NSW 2577.

[Tools]

I have only dealt with them once when I bought a husky demo saw and had it shipped to Melbourne.This was a direct sale, not through ebay. I found the service to be excellent,the saw arrived promptly and i have no complaints.
Tools

[ClintO]

I can understand your frustration but if I needed something that urgently I wouldnt be buying it off eBay.

[stevemc32]

I had a similar experience over 12 months ago ordering direct from their website.

[TORB]

I can understand your frustration but if I needed something that urgently I wouldnt be buying it off eBay.

That is a more than reasonable point and normally I would agree totally, but as this was Sydney Tools, and they had five bricks and mortar stores in Sydney, I figured that they would probably be reliable and true to their promises. :no: :no: :no:

[billyt]

You're going to take legal action over $16 for freight?? :no:

[TORB]

You're going to take legal action over $16 for freight?? :no:

Due to Sydney Tools inability to actually calculate a simple number, they think it is $32.60.

Its not the dollar amount. Its the principle. Unless people/retailers are held accountable, their bad behaviour will continue.

Service in Oz is getting worse and worse. Why? Because consumers put up with it and let the vendors get away with it. But not this black duck. I will not put up with it in any shape or form and will take what ever steps necessary to try and stop it.

[Scribbly Gum]

I would like to say a few words about my own experiences with Sydney Tools.
I have bought two items from them over a period of several years. I have phoned them for advice, and sent emails and received courteous and prompt replies.
One item was for myself and the other was a gift for my son to be couriered to his address.
Now, none of these were life-threateningly urgent, but the present had to be there in time for a birthday.
I have had nothing but co-operation and excellent service from them, and I wouldn't hesitate to use them again.
Sometimes mistakes happen, or oversights occur, even in the best run businesses.
While I am sorry to hear of your troubles, I don't think that this experience is indicative of the service offered by the store.
Good luck with the resolution of your problem.
SG

[Scott]

I have a principle when buying stuff from anywhere. One bad transaction is forgiven and feedback is given directly to the vendor. Second bad transaction then I don't shop there again. Feedback is also given to the vendor. Each time I weigh up the excuse given to me as there maybe some mitigating circumstances. There is one thing though. In today's day and age too many people rely on email as a way to communicate which saddens me greatly. Things can be misconstrued or misunderstood. Talking is golden.

[Scott]

I must add that I never make my grief public unless the circumstances are dire and all attempts at communication and settlement have been exhausted (unless I'm dealing with Telstra!)

[munruben]

Looking at the correspondence between yourself and the company involved. I dont think you can condemn them for their lack of communication. It appears they did in fact respond professionally, cordially and speedily. The attitude of your own correspondence leaves a lot to be desired. I dont think it is necessary to insult continually staff members of any company or the company itself. This certainly doesn't inspire a reasonable response.

You are not dealing with a single person business and to expect everyone to jump at your command with that sort of an attitude is expecting a bit much.
In any large organisation it is not always possible to locate or track an item immediately and maybe the person you originally spoke to was not lying, as you claim, but telling you something he believed to be true at the time and in good faith.

I really do believe you were being unreasonable and almost childish in demanding a refund because the item wasn't delivered within the 24 hour period you expected.
We would all like to have a perfect world and have things our own way but fortunately we are all human at the end of the day mistakes and delays are encountered.

If you really believe a large company would bow to your demands and surrender to your threat to carry out legal action over a measly few dollars, don't kid yourself, there is an old saying, "You can't fight city hall" If they do make a full refund it will be purely a gesture of good will and not because of your threats.

In future I would suggest you buy over the counter from a local store where you can take immediate delivery of the item.

The only disturbing factor I find here, according to you, is that if the item is dispatched, you are not covered for a refund by PayPal

I have had items sent in an overnight bag from here (Brisbane) to Canberra and has taken 3 days to be delivered and the only compensation you get from Australia Post is to replace the overnight bag free.

[nrb]

You must agree that talking is the way to go BUT quite often what people say is not what people hear.
Torb is correct to put his dealings in writing, that way it is on the record for all to see and reach a settlement on fact, not on what may or may not have been said.

[Harry72]

"In any large organisation it is not always possible to locate or track an item immediately"

BS, its why we have computers no excuses...

[TORB]

There are a few comments you have made that I can not let pass without a response.



You are not dealing with a single person business and to expect everyone to jump at your command with that sort of an attitude is expecting a bit much.


I don't expect them to jump at my command, just do what they say they are going to do. They failed at that both comprehensively.



In any large organisation it is not always possible to locate or track an item immediately and maybe the person you originally spoke to was not lying, as you claim, but telling you something he believed to be true at the time and in good faith.


I don't think that Sydney Tools qualifies as a large organisation. A medium sized on possibly. Any organisation of that size in today's computer assisted environment that can't track an item is poorly run.



If you really believe a large company would bow to your demands and surrender to your threat to carry out legal action over a measly few dollars, don't kid yourself, there is an old saying, "You can't fight city hall" If they do make a full refund it will be purely a gesture of good will and not because of your threats.


That's exactly what I am going to do. They breached the contractual terms and conditions of sale which, under the Trade Practices act, entitles me to cancel the deal and legally requires them to make a full refund.

They have had about six weeks to issue a refund of their own accord and despite having stated they would do so, have failed to live up to their commitment, until i threaten them with legal action. Even then, they got the amount wrong and wanted to charge me twice the real freight cost.

In all seriousness munruben, please tell me why I should accept letting them charge me $32.60 because they dropped the ball. Because that's is what this boils down to.

[shedman]

I have read this thread with interest. I am a past customer of Sydney tools and have had a good experience of dealing with them. However, companies should not make promises they are unable to keep. It seems to me that you did all that can be expected of you in that when the item did not arrive in accordance with the contractual terms you informed them before the item was dispatched. I find it hard to believe that this company would risk the negative response over the cost of the freight.

I wonder if in fact their maths is not incorrect because they are trying to recover the return postage as well.

I would suggest that refunds for items not delivered on time are a cost of doing business on line.

I do not think you are being unreasonable but am not sure if your decision to go to law is altogether a good "commercial" decision for you. Again however I have to agree that if we all say its not worth the effort then service levels will deteriorate. I think it a great shame that many of us are so accustomed to organisations making promises and then not keeping them that we feel you are over-reacting. Good luck

[Sir Stinkalot]

Based on the information provided I would agree that you should be entitled to a full refund of what you initially paid.

According to your information if the order was placed prior to 4pm on 27th it should have been picked up and delivered on 28th. Looking at the email trail it was ordered on 27th, picked up on 28th and delivered on 29th. Would this generally be much of a problem, possibly not, but as you stated you purchased from the seller as they set their own delivery timeframes not you.

eBay seems to be trying to get away from the old online garage sale approach to being an Amazon style site where bricks and mortar stores can open a shop front to tap into the market. Partly due to that I think retailers would be under pressure to show delivery times which are outside their control and even possibly unrealistic just to stay competitive. At the end of the day however they set the conditions of sale and it is their responsibility to meet all conditions as they cannot select which conditions are important to the purchaser. Obviously the condition about delivery was important to Ric.

Whilst you may be in the right in relation to not accepting the item outside their delivery conditions I personally didn't feel comfortable about how you handled the situation in your emails with your aggressive approach and use of language.

The responses from the retailer were all quite professional but as for your tone I was just waiting for you to say that you were going to approach Today Tonight. Whilst I can understand your frustration sometimes to get the best outcome you just need to take a step back before responding as it would produces a better result for you in the long run. The lady who was communicating with you would have sorted it out but you had to start attacking other staff members which was of little use.

As for Paypal, as stated earlier you should be entitled to a full refund including postage. The item arrived but it was outside the sellers own delivery promise ..... Not much point receiving a birthday cake the day after the party.

I trust now you seem to have some support you are going to provide the seller with a link to this thread?

[TORB]

I trust now you seem to have some support you are going to provide the seller with a link to this thread?

I was in the process of doing exactly that when you posted your response. Its been sent and I have given them one last chance to provide a full refund before I lodge paperwork.

[rustynail]

Perfection....... So appealing, yet so ellusive.
Having spent many years in timber wholesale and marketing, I think I have just about heard it all. Botched orders, faulty product, slow payment, lost in transit, idle promises and dont care attitudes.
Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world. People (bless them) make mistakes. Things dont always go as planned and are often beyond ones control.
Frustration is a great fuel. It will drive us into action instantly. Further frustration and there is all hell to pay.
Now TORB old son, you have been very diligent in transcribing every last detail of communication between yourself and the offending company. Yet there is one small detail that remains unsaid.
Yes, you have pointed out to us, the readers, your urgent need of the tool, but at no time do you mention telling the supplier of this urgency. This could be deemed a lack of communication on your part. You see? Nobody is perfect.
The fact the store is prepared to offer a refund shows good faith. The reason they are not offering a freight cost refund is they would be out of pocket (probably against company policy.) Not nice, but a normal thing when it comes to product returns. The fact you cancelled the order after it had been despatched places the freight cost on you. The double freight cost would be for delivery to you and
then return to the store.
May I suggest, the threat of legal action is not the best weapon here.
I would imagine your chances of receiving any reasonable compensation would be negated by the costs incurred
It appears to me, the company in question has remained courteous throughout, despite your threats and accusations. In my experience, I have found it far more benificial, when dealing with people having this attribute, to afford them the same courteousy. The results may surprise you.
Rather than stating the obvious, " The goods were not despatched on said day." Would it not have been more prudent to ask why the goods were not despatched on the said day? In this situation, information would be your friend.
We both live in beautiful parts of the world. Take the time to smell the roses.
Urgent is a very subjective word...... the need to visit the loo, severed artery, bush fire, flood etc. You see the common link? All can be life threatening.
Woodwork? I rest my case.
"Go quietly, but carry a big stick."

[munruben]

"In any large organisation it is not always possible to locate or track an item immediately"

BS, its why we have computers no excuses...Sorry Harry I build computers and believe me they are not foolproof.. Not saying it was a computer error in this instance.

[munruben]

In all seriousness munruben, please tell me why I should accept letting them charge me $32.60 because they dropped the ball. Because that's is what this boils down to. I have never suggested you should not get a full refund, including your postage costs and I hope you do but taking legal proceedings can be very costly if that's the path you intend to travel.

[Sturdee]

I would like to make two comments without taking sides in this dispute.


1. Have you got copies, print outs etc, which state that they will post as you claim for their current web shop doesn't state that they will post in the time frame you claimed.


2. Even if you take them to Court and you win, and have a full refund and costs awarded to you, you will have lost. For the taxed costs awarded to you will be well below of your actual costs incurred and so your net costs will most likely be more than the trifling amount involved.


Most people have no idea that the costs in litigation is much more than the taxed costs awarded to you when you win. A bit like the gap in hospital costs with private health insurance. You can't win.


Peter.

[MICKYG]

Torbs

Consider putting this one down to experience, you will be a lot further ahead.


Regards Mike ( an ex customer):2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

[rrobor]

I bought bandsaw blades from USA, After 3 weeks I contacted the seller and asked what happened. He said he had posted them but would send another lot. I got the blades in 5 days and thanked him.
A month later the first lot arrived. And yes I payed for them, sure I could have done a swifty, but I would have known.
So go through the courts by all means and see the charges mount up.
You have no case, you can not prove that the item was not sen,t so all you will do is add to your mysery.
If you want my advice, move on. Life is far too short to raise the blood pressure over this sort of crap

[shedman]

It seems to me that the evidence negates your statement that there is no case

[TORB]

Yet there is one small detail that remains unsaid.
Yes, you have pointed out to us, the readers, your urgent need of the tool, but at no time do you mention telling the supplier of this urgency.


At that time the item stated that orders placed prior to 4pm would be dispatched the same day. There was no need for me to tell them about the urgency. All they had to do was to do was to keep to the terms of sale that they set.



The reason they are not offering a freight cost refund is they would be out of pocket (probably against company policy.) Not nice, but a normal thing when it comes to product returns. The fact you cancelled the order after it had been despatched places the freight cost on you. The double freight cost would be for delivery to you and
then return to the store.


Two points here Rusty. Firstly, their company policy does not over-ride the Trade Practices Act. Secondly, and this is important old mate, I cancelled the order verbally prior to the order even being processed, and then in writing prior to 10.45 am and the goods were dispatched late that afternoon. AAE order tracking confirmed the time frames.


I would like to make two comments without taking sides in this dispute.

1. Have you got copies, print outs etc, which state that they will post as you claim for their current web shop doesn't state that they will post in the time frame you claimed.


I do. I guess they have now changed their listings so that they are not setting false expectations.

In relation to the rest of the points you raise Peter, I hear what you say, however having been in business, both very bloody large, and small, I know all about court costs and recovering money from recalcitrant companies and individuals.

This has never been about the poultry few dollars. It has cost me way more in time and energy already. Its about a principle, making suppliers deliver on their promises (bad pun intended) and when they don't holding them accountable and standing up for what is right.

As for your last comment, "You can't win." I just did! :2tsup: :D

Since I sent a link to this thread, I have received a number of emails from Sydney Tools and the last one confirmed a refund for the full amount has been processed.

Cheers
Ric

[TORB]

You have no case, you can not prove that the item was not sen,t

It looks like you have either not read my original post, or have not understood the content. It is not about the item not being sent. The problem is that it was sent after the order had been cancelled.

[Scribbly Gum]

Time for a valium and a good lie down.:U

[rrobor]

Sorry I did read all of this. Correct me if I am wrong but the Item was to be sent that day via Australia post if it was B4 4 PM. Point one. How can that be cancelled the next day, you tell me. Point two Who in Gods name trusts Australia post. We now have a postal service contracted out. Lefty can be your postie provided he can ride a bike and read. Send money through the mail, chances are lefty will pocket it.
So who is to say what happened. Take the advice of above.

[rustynail]

Hi Ric,
When you say you cancelled the order verbally with somebody (name unknown) wouldnt stand up in court. The fellow did tell you it wasnt his job. Not an excuse but a fact and one you should have taken into acount. You then followed up in writting, thats good, but who knows when that communication was received by the relavent person.
None of this detracts from your right to be at differences with the supplier. It is just your method of handling the situation comes into question. You see, you have never asked why. You have climbed up on your high horse and done a dummy spit.
You think you have won just because the supplier has decided descretion to be the better part of valour.
Its a pity they coughed up so readily, we will never know who was right.
The good old Trade Practices Act.......I dont know how many times Ive seen that misinterperated or misquoted.
So often the facts of a particular case do not completely comply with the Act and a determination has to be made. The adjudicator tries to be considerate towards both parties when weighing up the facts.
It is interesting to note your blatant disreguard for the other party's situation and your ability to grasp hold of self supportive facts as a dog would a bone.
Now Im getting your back up, aren't I?
No intention of being defammatory, Im just pointing out how things can be perceived.

[Sir Stinkalot]

It is a bit of a shame that you have used these forums to basically drag the name of a retailer into the mud to force their hand on the matter. As I stated previously I think your refund is "technically" valid based on the information provided (one sided by you). Despite being "technically" right, I think you handled the situation poorly and the tone used in your emails was particularly confronting.



I post this information as a warning to others about the pitfalls of using eBay, even where the supplier has a good record, and also thinking that PayPal offers blanket protection.

If this is true why drag the name of the retailer into the "warning"? Your post has very little to do with PayPal protection and more to do with you intending to use the post to force the arm of the retailer through public media. Despite as you say it all being above board and correct in your first statement it seemed quite calculated to provide details of the retailer.

I don't have a problem with how the retailer has managed the situation. They were very prompt with their responses to you and were willing to work with you until you stated to rant and rage, and I can see why the wheels started to turn slower as a response to your tone.

As for winning ..... you got your money but you are not a winner :no:. You got a result by using an aggressive tactics and really this forum. I trust the retailer will be continuing to check this thread and I would think they will gain more support than less.

PS: I should have added when I posted:
I trust now you seem to have some support you are going to provide the seller with a link to this thread?
I was using my phone and couldn't work out how to include the "rolling eyes" smilie ..... I hope you didn't take it as a recommendation of what you should do.

[Handyjack]

1/ If you need something NOW, go to a brick and mortar store and buy off the shelf. If it out of stock you need to go else where. Yes it cost time but you get it NOW.

2/ If an item is to be delivered, allow an extra day or two. Human beings and external factors can cause delays.

3/ Most traders try and do the right thing, but sometimes it goes pear shape. The service is only as good as the staff and the information they receive and interpret.

4/ Communicate, communicate and communicate. Perhaps if it had been a phone order backed up by an email (not ebay order) it might have worked out differently. Also see point 1.

[TORB]

I am happy to make comment on statements made that may be inaccurate, but as i said in my original post, "OK, now please wait whilst I put on my flame-proof underwear, as I am bound to cop flack and have people say its an over-reaction. I will let those posts go and not respond to them as I am not looking for a fight." so I will let a number of things said in a few of the preceding posts pass without comment.

We are all entitled to our opinions and sometimes debating them will serve no purpose.



I don't have a problem with how the retailer has managed the situation. They were very prompt with their responses to you and were willing to work with you until you stated to rant and rage, and I can see why the wheels started to turn slower as a response to your tone.


So do you think its perfectly acceptable to not refund money for six weeks, despite having stated that it will be done, because they don't like my tone?

As for the "response" being prompt, response is not confined to email. They did not respond promptly by sending the order as per thier own stated terms, they did not respond promptly to the order cancellation, they did not respond to my second email on Tuesday, they did not respond to my PayPal escalation request and they did not respond promptly, or even slowly to their own commitment to process a refund.



I was using my phone and couldn't work out how to include the "rolling eyes" smilie ..... I hope you didn't take it as a recommendation of what you should do.


As I stated earlier, "I was in the process of doing exactly that when you posted your response" and had already sent my email to Sydney Tools prior to reading your post (non-suggestion.)


Sorry I did read all of this. Correct me if I am wrong but the Item was to be sent that day via Australia post if it was B4 4 PM. Point one. How can that be cancelled the next day, you tell me. Point two Who in Gods name trusts Australia post. We now have a postal service contracted out. Lefty can be your postie provided he can ride a bike and read. Send money through the mail, chances are lefty will pocket it.
So who is to say what happened. Take the advice of above.

I can't let some of the points you made pass without comment.

Re point one, I see the process needs clarification. The order was placed on day one prior to 4pm so should have been sent that day as per Sydney Tools own stated terms, however the goods were not sent that day. On the morning of day two, prior to the order even being invoiced, I rang and cancelled it. Then confirmed in writing.

Re point two. You make a some pretty sweeping generalisations here. Firstly, in my experience it is no where near as bad as you state. Secondly, the local post office is not franchised out, and finally, I do trust Oz post and have found their service is generally excellent. Parcel Post items normally have a tracking number and over the last few years, I have had hundred of these parcels delivered, and touch wood, my loss rate for these tracked items is zero.

As far as parcel post speed is concerned, generally it is excellent, especially from Sydney which is almost always overnight. The exception being a few weeks prior to Christmas.


1/ If you need something NOW, go to a brick and mortar store and buy off the shelf. If it out of stock you need to go else where. Yes it cost time but you get it NOW.


Easy to say, but not so easy when its a 180 kilometre, often over three hour round trip.



2/ If an item is to be delivered, allow an extra day or two. Human beings and external factors can cause delays.

Correct, but suppliers should not make commitments they do not meet. If they are not sure they can meet them, they should not make the commitment in the first place. There is a big difference between an absolute stated commitment, and a "we try."

[munruben]

I am pleased you got your refund in full. I don't think you "won" anything, you got back what was yours in the first place.which the company said they were going to do in the first place.

I don't believe 6 weeks is a reasonable time to effect a refund but I believe that this delay was brought about by your own doing. Insulting people and ridiculing them, which you have done throughout your communication with the company, is not a mature way to approach any company or employee of a company to resolve a problem.You did this from the very onset of your contact with them and on several occasions in this thread have made nasty personal remarks about staff and the company.

You accuse the company or poorly handling your situation, I feel you handled your complaint poorly too and the matter would have been resolved much sooner if you had approached the matter in a more courteous manner

You went in straight off with guns blazing and if I had been involved with issuing a refund to your satisfaction, it would have been a long time coming too. They (the staff) are human too and deserve to be treated in a civilised manner, which in my opinion you didn't do.

Yes there are times when you have to get tough to get things done but in the first instance we usually use respect and courtesy to the people we are talking to.You don't have to bring the argument down to a personal level with staff and ridicule and insult them. They are only trying to do their job.

In an ideal world, it would be terrific if we were all perfect but unfortunately we are all human.

I don't think you did your cause much good in this instance.

[TORB]

I

They (the staff) are human too and deserve to be treated in a civilised manner, which in my opinion you didn't do.

Yes there are times when you have to get tough to get things done but in the first instance we usually use respect and courtesy to the people we are talking to.You don't have to bring the argument down to a personal level with staff and ridicule and insult them. They are only trying to do their job.


Respect is earned and is not an automatic right. Respect can also be a two way street.

To earn respect, a retailer's staff member should not out rightly lie to a customer, and I don't call anyone a liar lightly. To earn respect, they should do what the customer reasonably requests, like cancelling an order when asked to do so verbally. Or even cancelling it when it is requested in writing, which was done factually, firmly, but not aggressively.

I then received an email of apology and the promise of a refund. My response to that email was factual and not insulting, and even stated that the previous email from Sydney Tools went a long way to rectify the damage.

The next thing I find out is that not only has Sydney Tools failed to ship as per their own commitment, they had failed to act on my verbal request to cancel the order, and also failed to act on the written request, despite the fact they had plenty of time to cancel the transaction. And of course, the original guy I spoke to blatantly lied to me. For example, telling me the goods had been shipped the previous day when their own shipping records show it had not shipped, and then inventing a false reason why it takes two days to receive an order via AAE, and not one.

That's not a real good way for an organisation to earn the customers respect. It is also certainly not doing ones job, because if the staff had done there job, this would not have happened in the first place.

I could go on with more examples of staff not doing their jobs and not earning respect, but there is little point doing so as its unlikely further comment on this track will change either one of our opinions.

I will not be able to respond further till late Monday as I am going away for a few days.

[old pete]

Hi Torb,

I've read or probably more accurately scanned the correspondence in this thread. My advice would be to get over it and move on with life......it's a bit too short already!!

Old Pete


There are a few comments you have made that I can not let pass without a response.



I don't expect them to jump at my command, just do what they say they are going to do. They failed at that both comprehensively.



I don't think that Sydney Tools qualifies as a large organisation. A medium sized on possibly. Any organisation of that size in today's computer assisted environment that can't track an item is poorly run.



That's exactly what I am going to do. They breached the contractual terms and conditions of sale which, under the Trade Practices act, entitles me to cancel the deal and legally requires them to make a full refund.

They have had about six weeks to issue a refund of their own accord and despite having stated they would do so, have failed to live up to their commitment, until i threaten them with legal action. Even then, they got the amount wrong and wanted to charge me twice the real freight cost.

In all seriousness munruben, please tell me why I should accept letting them charge me $32.60 because they dropped the ball. Because that's is what this boils down to.

[billyt]

"I will not be able to respond further till late Monday as I am going away for a few days."


Tool shopping for that 'urgent' tool perhaps! :cl:

[BobL]

My advice would be to get over it and move on with life......it's a bit too short already!!

+1 :2tsup:

[nihilism]

I agree with most of the posters above. They were one day late, life's too short, don't lose sleep over it.

[underfoot]

Time for a valium and a good lie down.:U
sage advice



As for winning ..... you got your money but you are not a winner :no:. You got a result by using an aggressive tactics and really this forum. I trust the retailer will be continuing to check this thread and I would think they will gain more support than less.

I got the impression from your first post that this wasn't really a warning about online transactions... it seemed that you were just using the forum to gather disciples to share your rage ..:rolleyes:



My advice would be to get over it and move on with life......it's a bit too short already!!

+2:2tsup:

[rustynail]

Ric, You never told us why the item was so urgent in the first place. 24hours seems like a very fine time line.

[rrobor]

If I could sum this thread up, it would be the seller one and you zero. Please read back all the posts here and use them as your jury of 12 good men. Well its beyond that and your score aint good.
So posting here may do you good, you have free advice and the advice is calm down.
Its now your call, how much money do you want to spend, How high do you want your blood pressure to go. Its your thing, You may die proving you are correct, you may take a vallium, or you may see that life is short, stress like this kills, so why do it.
I am sure you look at the posts here and fume, thats who you are. Well continue doing that and you will kill yourself, Chill out a bit.

[Carry Pine]

I appreciate that most people here think Torb is using this site as a lever against a company but haven't we all been bitten by some company in the past and got really angry about it? I know we can settle it in private but if others can learn from the experience, isn't that a plus? I would suggest that in every area of my life, some person or company has either ripped me off or attempted to (or is trying to as we speak). Most of the time I just wear it, get a refund maybe or on two occasions threaten legal action. I'm thinking of my cars, bikes, the house, the shed I built this year, tools and just about everything.

I identify with this guy after my purchase of a Leigh dovetail jig at the WWW show where i was promised delivery in 3 weeks. 4 months later there were strong rumours that the company was being sold. In that case I'm glad I made noises (even on this Forum) even though the reps of the company were very friendly when i called each week.
I retired this year and my union was charging me by deduction for full union membership and retired membership.

After retiring my health provider staed they would not be receiving any deductions and that from a certain date i wasn't covered. i paid them in advance but the deductions kept coming out of my super fund anyway. They didn't tell me. I told them.
Because I do casual work for the government they make a super contribution. My super company took out 2 life insurance policies on me and told me about it 2 months later. They do not want to refund the contributions already made but i have never asked for the policies.
My phone company charges me each month for WAP sessions. Only between 3-5 dollars and most of the time i get it back but i tell them every time i call that I don't use WAP sessions. My phone is one that sends sms and voice calls only.

The companies that I deal (or have dealt with) are all well-respected companies but i don't think it hurts to put some pressure on them when they are not living up to their promises or are deliberately going out of their way to penny pinch.

Not included in the above companies I have had experiences with e bay and pay pal that were less than satisfactory from my position. Those two you use at your own discretion.

Graham

[TORB]

Ric, You never told us why the item was so urgent in the first place.

Rusty,

Why I needed it is immaterial to the discussion.

The fact is the supplier failed to meet one of their own contractual commitments relating to the terms of sale. A couple of other people have mentioned the Trade Practices Act. For the record, I am very familiar with the TPA (and 2 other acts that were the mainstays governing my business.) My experience of the TPA goes back to 1977 when it was first introduced as it had a critical impact on part of the business I was involved in at the time, and I have maintained an interest in it ever since. I have read those three acts countless times.

Prudent business management means that it is important to have a comprehensive understanding of the main government legalisation that affects ones business.

[woodbe]

I rate you both about even.

Sydney tools should have copped the loss on the freight without a fight. The customer is always right, and in this case the customer clearly was ahead of the game and had the facts and timing of the communication on his side.

The customer on the other hand, has wasted an awful amount of his own time and probably a lot of ST's time extracting what was his right. Presumably, he bought the machine on ebay because it was cheap, and relied on the 'ebay infrastructure' to carry out his urgent wish. Businesses get busy with deadlines at the close of the day, and it takes calibre for them to perform at their best. Even so, mistakes happen and deadlines are missed.

I wonder what would have happened if the customer had got on the phone and spoken to a human in the first place? Might have gotten the machine at ebay price on the freight that day, who knows? I've often rung bricks and mortar traders that have cheapies on the web like these and wotif etc, and gotten the same deal with personal service.

Life's too short.

woodbe.

[old pete]

Hey Guys,

Isn't it time we dropped this one??. This debate is becoming frankly quite boring and is totally unproductive. Just let it go folks is my request and suggestion.

Old Pete

[rustynail]

If you were as familiar with the Trade Practices act as you would have us believe, you would recognise the fact that the supplier can be affected by extenuating circumstances. Should he be able to proove same, he would not be in breech. Look up frustrated contract.
In future, kindly quote accurately. I did not ask why you needed the item . I asked what was the urgency.

[munruben]

I identify with this guy after my purchase of a Leigh dovetail jig at the WWW show where i was promised delivery in 3 weeks. 4 months later there were strong rumours that the company was being sold.
Graham
Hardly a fair comparison.. This item in question was only a matter of hours late in arriving. :)

[munruben]

Hey Guys,

Isn't it time we dropped this one??. This debate is becoming frankly quite boring and is totally unproductive. Just let it go folks is my request and suggestion.

Old PeteFair call OP. everyone has had their say and Torb is happy with the result. Lets bury this one.

[Scribbly Gum]

Let it go boys.
This topic has had a fairly lengthy airing and needs to be put to bed.
Let's all move on.
As has been oft repeated
Life's too short....

Cheers to all
SG:U

PS Looks like John and I had the same idea about the same time

[TORB]

In future, kindly quote accurately. I did not ask why you needed the item . I asked what was the urgency.

I actually did quote you accurately. 100% accurately. However in my response I made an error and left out the word "urgently." But it does not change the intent of the answer. It is not relevant.

As far as the supplier proving extenuating circumstances, as you say, it would be up to the supplier to provide the burden of proof. I would like to see them do that given the negative and neutral comments on eBay.


Presumably, he bought the machine on ebay because it was cheap, and relied on the 'ebay infrastructure' to carry out his urgent wish. Businesses get busy with deadlines at the close of the day, and it takes calibre for them to perform at their best. Even so, mistakes happen and deadlines are missed.

Quick response. In my original post I gave the reasons why I purchased from this vendor. The main reason was not because it was cheap.

Also, businesses should not make definitive or absolute commitments if they can't meet them. As far as missing deadlines, ST have many negative comments on eBay about delivery times.

In response to the requests to let this one go, this is my last post in this thread.

[RETIRED]

I think this is done and dusted and is going in circles.