Senseless and Stupid

[silentC]

Ten minutes after Emile Doussett bought petrol at a Central Coast service station his car hurtled down a quiet suburban street, became airborne after hitting a bump and three young people were dead.

Mr Doussett's Nissan Skyline had been speeding at up to 180kmh before flying through the air for 40 metres and hitting a power pole.

The car split into pieces, the front flying a further 30 metres before coming to rest on the footpath beside Chamberlain Road, Wyoming.

The bodies of Mr Doussett, 20, and his front-seat passenger, Karl Homer, 33, were thrown up to 60 metres from the pole. In the rear of the vehicle, which had wrapped around the pole, lay the body of Natasha Schys, 15.

Another three young lives cut off by stupidity. OK, one of them was 33 and old enough to know better but the driver was 20 and his other passenger was a 15 year old girl. They're all dead now. I'd hate to be the family of the driver because not only have they lost a son but he has also taken two other people away from their families.

This is nothing new, it's been going on for decades. I went to the police station on the day I turned 16 and 9 months to get my L plates. I got my Ps on my 17th birthday. Three days later I was pulled over doing 120kph in my V8 Falcon. I had my cousin in the car with me. Did it cross my mind that I could kill us both? No, I was indestructible. It makes me shudder to think of the things I did in that car. I survived but plenty of us don't.

My reason for writing this is that I have a son and I want to know how to stop him from doing the same thing when he's old enough to drive. There must be something because I couldn't stand to be one of those parents.

[HappyHammer]

SC,

I'm as terrified as you of getting that phone call or knock on the door in the middle of the night, it would destroy me. I to did stupid things when I was young and by luck came through it. Maybe we should ask what would have prevented us doing the things we all know we did.

At the end of the day, dying is never at the front of mind for most young people so a different deterent is needed, one they'll dislike more than the thrill of being on the edge. It seems radical but if analysis proves these incidents are primarily in the evenings then maybe curfews for L and P platers could be imposed. Alternatively make the penalty for speeding (which seems to be the major cause of deaths) immediate loss of license for two years and them having to re-take the test.

A lot has been made of the driving course approach but if I'd been on such a course I think I would have felt even more indestructible not less.

There's my 2c worth.

HH.

[HappyHammer]

Another option might be to limit the power of vehicles for under 21's ...

HH.

[bitingmidge]

Don't let him play with video games.

I have this theory that kids are conditioned by them to the extent that if they "die" then it's "game over" and there is no consequence- just put another two bob in and start again!

On the other hand: my friends in the press reported all in the car were in their teens, and that the car was a Skyline GTR.

There was alot of hoo ha when the old "power war" happened with the Monaro/Falcon GT, and those cars were only sold to people with competition licences.

The GTR (Godzilla) is among the most awe-inspiriting things to drive.... 0-100 in less than five seconds, 250km speed limited, traction control on all four driving wheels.... but like all cars that are designed for speed, they need contact with the ground in order to stop.

My current flash car is not as quick as that, but still carries a warning in the manual, that the laws of physics still apply and one should not rely on the electronics to get one out of every situation.

Cars are so darned good these days that there is no "thrill" until the speeds attained are lethal...not much is going to help if you hit a pole sideways at 120k!

So firstly have them in cars that appear to be more thrilling than they are: the old mini was a great example, low and slow, but by golly it seemed like the speed of sound.

A licence system (or parents) which limits kids to minimal horsepower for a time, defensive AND advanced driving lessons, and NO PASSENGERS for the first six months or so worked for us, (but our kids are girls so that helped also :o).

A car club is the next thing as well..bury your anti-petrol head sentiments for a while .....take them to do the boy thing (or girl thing) under controlled conditions...social gymkhanas and other events will both bring them down to earth in a hurry regarding their own ability (you can use the family car), while giving them car handling skills that just might help, and maybe they'll get the message that it's ok to spin out on grass, where there is nothing to hit, but on a street it hurts!

End of rant, but all of those things probably stopped me from a similar demise, and our kids thankfully have all survived that danger time.

You pushed a bit of a button here I'm afraid!

Cheers,

P

[PAH1]

I was like Silent, turned up at the local police station the day I was eligible etc. I was not that dramatic in what I did, I had been driving on the farm for some time, however I still did some dumb things and was in the car when others were doing them.

I am not sure that curfews would change all that much. In Arizona you are not legally able to drink in bars untill 21. They still catch people drinking younger and they are able to drive from 16. When we lived there a person out drinking from her 21st blood alcohol 0.18 missed seeing the line of flares marking an accident site on the freeway. She plowed into the back of a police car where a patrollmen was finishing the paperwork for a previous accident. The impact concertinered the doors shut and set the patrol car alight, three days before the patrollmens wedding. Why would a curfew be relevent in this case, it was 6am in the morning and she was heading home after having an allnighter. My old school has too many more examples to mention on this topic, some pure stupidity, others just plain unlucky.

We need a way of making these people responsible rather than banning them. That is not easy as responsibility comes with age and responsibilities and that is something that is not taught by many to their children and even when they do the media picture is to say others are responsible anyway.

Sorry for the rant, none of my high school class has died in this manner (20yrs on) however my two younger brothers years have been decimated from road accidents.

[Wood Borer]

Darren,

There is nothing that will guarantee he will not do the same thing as you. You could decrease his chances of being as silly as us and perhaps that is done by example whilst bringing him up.

I was a bit of a rebel and probably would have driven slowly if the old geriatrics had encouraged me to drive fast. That was when as much emphasis was given to saying grace at the meal table as there was to drug taking including smoking and drinking and driving like an idiot. Well I didn’t quite see the importance of saying grace so I lumped all the advice into one basket and pitched it. Fortunately for me the illegal drugs didn’t play a part in my life.

With our kids we tried to differentiate between life threatening attitudes and etiquette and so far so good, they are both grown up and left home and leading lives we are proud of.

If only we could promote to younger ones that woodwork was something that is cool or whatever the latest word for fashionable might be (funky?). We could have young people challenging each other with great designs and they could even take us “oldies” on by laughing at our woodwork advice.

At least they would still be alive and the world of woodwork would be better off with the influx of fresh ideas from the most energetic in our society – the younger ones.

[Slavo]

My first car was a Datto 120Y. 0-100 in 5 minutes and when it went over 100km/h it shook & rattled like buggery. I still did silly things but with the power, speed and accelleration limited it probably saved me more than once. Although I love V8's and fast cars there is no need for anyone to have a car capable of 180km/h. So Silent,I reckon buy your son a car with limited horsepower.
The local rag on the coast says that the 15 year old girls was pregnant, so that is 4 lives lost

[HappyHammer]

I am not sure that curfews would change all that much. In Arizona you are not legally able to drink in bars untill 21. They still catch people drinking younger and they are able to drive from 16.
Not sure we're on the same page here PAH1. What I meant by curfew was cannot drive a car between 10pm and 6am or something like that, nothing to do with drinking. I think this has been discussed in the press recently not sure of all the +'s and -'s.

As an aside when I lived in California they had Curfews in San Jose where no-one under 17 I think it was could be out on the street after 9pm although this was in reaction to gang problems.

HH.

[Gumby]

It's a combination of the aggressive approach kids have these days and the higher powered cars they drive. I started in a 1949 Austin A40 and graduated to VW Bettles and of course, a Combi (with bed, kitchen and surf racks angled down at the front) :D

I pranged the A40 once, but not bad and nobody hurt. Yes , we did silly things but we never hit 120kmh....not even down hill with a strong tail wind.

I'd definitely limit the horsepower for the first 3 years !

[PAH1]

Not sure we're on the same page here PAH1. What I meant by curfew was cannot drive a car between 10pm and 6am or something like that, nothing to do with drinking. I think this has been discussed in the press recently not sure of all the +'s and -'s.

As an aside when I lived in California they had Curfews in San Jose where no-one under 17 I think it was could be out on the street after 9pm although this was in reaction to gang problems.

HH.

I was just adding that the accident mentioned involved a tragic accident, out of curfew hours, through deliberate stupidity on the part of the person concerned. Nobody can legislate or allow for all acts of stupidity. Nothing will actually prevent idiots driving during those hours and they are mostly the ones that cause the trouble. It may sound like a solution but you then need to get the police to patrol it and enforce it and they really have enough other things to do.

[himzol]

Like Darren this day is getting closer for me, my son will be eligable for his learners permit in less than two weeks, so this topic has been at the fore for a while.


There is nothing that will guarantee he will not do the same thing as you. You could decrease his chances of being as silly as us and perhaps that is done by example whilst bringing him up.

This is the aproach I'm taking.

I am still amazed that I am alive or worse didn't kill somebody else in my youth. I worry as you do about what will happen, that's what being a parent is about I guess.

I started the process on my son some time back, when DAD knew everything. I'm hoping that those lessons are now entrenched.

These days I'm more often ignored until somebody else says the same thing and then I'm looked at as if I'm some sort oracle that could predict the ways of the world. I was the same.



HH,
Limiting the power of the vehicle doesn't work, just look at the motor cycle thing. In South Australia you are not allowed to have a bike more than 250cc until you are off P plates, yet I was able to wring the life out of a four stroke 250 Honda and get it upto 200km/h (this was on the track). that was fifteen years ago, I'd hate to think what some of them are capable of now.

I think the only thing we as parents can do is educate them, trust them and worry like crazy whenever they are out. After all didn't your parents do the same.

Himzo.

[Ben from Vic.]

Talk to this man......


"After his stepson survived a near-fatal accident in 1999, Frank Bottomley from Batemans Bay launched his own campaign called "Stop The Four O'Clock Knock". He has held about 40 seminars across NSW. "The number of kids we get shows they really do want to know about staying safe," he said."

[HappyHammer]

Himzo,

I think you're right on providing a good example and this is harder for some of us than others. I believe my road rage problem is a direct result of seeing my Dad do it when I was young and me believing he is the Oracle. My tongue is already bleeding from the number of times I've biten it whilst the kids are in the car. My daughter is 3 and is already saying "faster faster" when we're in the car.:eek:

I think we had something similar for motorbikes in the UK but the limit was 50cc for the first year or something.

HH.

[jackiew]

my mum encouraged all of us girls to ride motorbikes because she reckoned we were safer doing that than being passengers in cars driven by stupid young men. I had a very mis-spent youth speedwise (though my nerve failed at about 130 mph - the bike had more left) and put my survival down to a combination of luck and being but was very selective about when and where I did my speeding. on a bike you stuff up and you're dead at best and in a wheelchair as a vegetable at worst.

I'd go for compulsory year riding a motorbike before you can get a car license. if we empty the lower end of the gene pool as a result then so be it. Anyone who's too dumb to work out that you can seriously damage yourself on 2 wheels after attending the funerals of a few mates is probably not worth worrying about ( although their families have my sympathy).

I had a row with a guy at work who was so scared that his son would get a motorbike that he was going to buy him a car because that way if he did something stupid ( and he was quite open about the fact that he EXPECTED him to do something stupid ) then the son wouldn't get hurt as badly. I was appalled at my colleague's disregard for the safety of everyone else on the road. My stance was that I'd far rather that his son killed himself on a bike than crashed into another road user or killed a passenger in his car. This didn't go down well with the doting father but I still hold the opinion.

[BigPop]

Having been one of those persons who has done the "4 o'clock knock" on many occasions and also had to extricate lifeless poor souls from wrecks over many years I am still at a loss as how to stop this carnage.
I think no matter how much education we instill, laws, curfews, restrictions on horsepower etc we impose the deaths will still continue. A lot of it is the 'macho factor' similar to that what SilentC mentioned - once you have a licence + a car you think you are indestructable and go for it.
I'm not saying everyone does it but there are many out there that do.
Look at the so called 'hoons' now in the souped up 4 cylinder rockets. Some of these things can do well over 100mph and that's stock standard before they are "hotted up".
Some young persons don't respect their driving licence and think it is a right not a privilege to have one and lo and behold anyone who tries to take it from them.
Education by parents, family and authorities may well help in some way but I think it will be a long time till we can come up with a good solution to the problem and until then we will still see & watch news reports as we did the other night with those poor 3 young persons.
I can assure you that doing the 4 o'clock knock was just as devastating for me as it was for the famileis too. My last one, and hardest of all, was my neighbours over the road when their son was tragically killed - it was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. Haven't and couldn't do another one since.

[LineLefty]

Being only 25, I'm still paying the hefy insurance because of the idiotic driving of my contemporaries. Even though I puttputt around in a the camry with the babyseat in the back.

It too was a bot of a nincompoop when I was seventeen. I had an old rotary Mazda Capella that went like he proverbial shower of sh**. Luckily for me I rear-ended another pizza driver while I was fidlding with stereo, and perving on a girl while driving into the sun in the reight hand lane on great eastern hwy.

In all seriousness, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. Scared the living daylights out of me. I was still a passenger however in many a V8 commodore doing stupid things.

Unfortunately, I really don't know how to get thru to these tough guys. Some times I jsut feel like grabbing them and saying:

"Your VN commodore is a piece of **** that will get out of control and kill you! Chicks arent impressed with your stereo or your driving. Get a brain and stop being an immature loser ahhh!"

Also I really don't think limiting power is the problem. Any car will go 120kms and thats enought to ensure your death. How many hotted up POS hyundai excels have you seen driving like idiots?

The greatest bumper sticker I've ever seen was on the back of a Triumph TR7 which read, Your hyundai is NOT A sports car.

[barnsey]

My first car was a Morris Minor - geez I did some silly things in that but speed was not one of them :D

And that was in the days when you had to drive coz you were too rotten to walk :eek: :eek: :eek:

Reduced speed capability, training and perhaps a curfew are all elements of a program that would have some effect but to allow any one without the others is like plugging up one hole in a colander :rolleyes:

Until a human has the opportunity to see what the car will do in different circumstances and they understand the dynamics they will push it till they loose it. If it is done under guidance then you take away the chance that a telephone pole is in the way when they cross the threshold. Speed and training in a controlled environment in that case are an obvious selection. ;)

We all know the power of peer groups, believe the curfew option is a good idea then. But without the other two the point will still come where the urge to feel the need for speed will surface and all you've done is changed the time of the potential accident. :rolleyes:

I've got two on the verge too! :eek: And frankly their inability to see anything beyond the axis that goes in through the top of their heads and comes out their rectal passage scares the out of me but you have to rely on the fact that you have done your best to train and expose them to the dangers so that they know the potential of the situation. ;)

Good luck to us all and that fate shines on all favourably. :) :)

[craigb]

The greatest bumper sticker I've ever seen was on the back of a Triumph TR7 which read, Your hyundai is NOT A sports car.

Neither is a TR7
:D :D :D :D

[TassieKiwi]

I heard on the ABC this am that there is fairly conclusive new information that the human brain doesn't fully develop until the early twentirs - and the last part to develop is the frontal lobes, which are responsible for judgment, analysis, control, and by inference recognition of cause and effect. So a 16 year old in a car maybe unsafe at any speed:eek: after all. I certainly was. I shudder to think that at 15 I had a full license, after a run around the block and a 3-point-turn.

No training for wet roads, ice, night driving, skid correction, emergency stops, following distance, not eating/texting/ferken with cd's...........:mad:

Surely education must help - and compulsory use of professional driver trainers.

I worry to death about my teenage children's safety on young yobbo's cars - and they're only 3 &5! Maybe it will all be fixed by then, as petrol will have run out.

Den

[PAH1]

Neither is a TR7
:D :D :D :D

I dunno, a mate dropped a leyland p76 v8 into one and regeared it. 300kph easy. Yes this guy was an idiot, very good accountant but an idiot.

[jackiew]

I think tassiekiwi has hit the nail on the head ... we let kids have control of a vehicle just because they have reached a certain age ... we don't recognise that some of them aren't mature enough to handle the responsibility. Realistically some small percentage of individuals are NEVER going to be mature enough to handle the responsibility.

I know that quite a few years ago when they were examining the structure of driver training in the uk that I saw a sample questionnaire which was designed to test driver attitude rather than driver knowledge. I doubt if they ran with the idea ( far too controversial ).

Maybe we should be scaring them stupid at primary school age - visits to the car graveyard to look at vehicles which have been in crashes - then they have to go back and write a story about what it is like to be in a wheelchair after a car accident etc etc. Use accident statistics in maths class. Look at the effect of being hit by a car in biology etc.

[HappyHammer]

Look at the effect of being hit by a car in biology etc.
Bloody hell ! Not even safe in the classroom.

Apologies for being flipant in a serious thread couldn't help myself.

HH.

[DaveInOz]

Traveling long straight country roads at 190-200km/h was no big deal because I knew it was relitivly safe (100% vision, fair road, no side roads or drives, good bike) any faster and the bike would start to misbehave so that was a nice cruising speed. However doing 60km/h on a freeway with rain, at night can be terrifying - when you realise you are going to fast for the conditions, or in a machine not up to it.
Speed isn't the problem, it is knowing the time and the place.

on Cars ...
My dad taught me to drive when I was 12ish, in shopping centre car parks on Sundays. He taught me to start, stop, doughnuts, line lock spins, slides etc it was a blast, I bashed a few paddocks as I grew up (not many as I'm a city kid).
The result once I was driving on my own was I was bored of all that crap, and of driving in general, ever since cars have been a mistreated tool, not a toy. Cars and driving bore me.

[bitingmidge]

Here's another take:
The "Bloomberg Caveats" refers to Section 43.7(ii) of Local Law 879057694053485735 which requires a car dealer to explain to any new owner all possible consequences of not operating a car safely.* The Caveats must be recited before the new owner is allowed to take possession.

For the full ramifications of this read This Story (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12056)

Now there's a thought.....make the vendor responsible!!

P

[Rocker]

SilentC,

I am inclined to think that is is a good idea to encourage teenagers to engage in a pastime that has a certain amount of obvious danger in it, such as rock-climbing, or hang-gliding. If a teenager's thirst for an adrenalin rush is satisfied in this way, he is less likely to seek it by driving cars dangerously. When I was a youngster, rock climbing, at which I was a pretty poor performer, gave me a healthy respect for the possibility of death. I would suggest, though, that rock-climbing is best done on coarse-grained igneous or metamorphic rocks, suck as granite and gneiss, rather than sedimentary ones like sandstone, as I believe you have already learned to your cost :)

Rocker

[Termite]

Now there's a thought.....make the vendor responsible!!
P
No offence intended, and I'm sure you put this up to be ridiculed along with the following:-
Prisoners rights
Gay rights
Criminals right to sue you because you hit him while he was robbing your house.
Free shooting galeries.
Free needles for junkies while diabetics pay.
etc etc.

I dont know what the answer is for the young ones, at their age (if I remember back that far sonny) I was bullet proof too.

[bitingmidge]

No offence intended, and I'm sure you put this up to be ridiculed along with the following:-
.
Yep!

and for those who don't read the link: it's basically the story of a lady suing a car dealer, because she slipped on a banana which was on the footpath as a result of an accident which involved a car that HE sold (a Jag), claiming that he probably didn't give the new owner an adequate instruction on how dangerous those things are round the city!


Cheers,

P

[BigPop]

I s'pose one other aspect we should also look at is the driving habits/behaviour of some of us 'more experienced' drivers too.
Some drivers leave a lot to be desired that's for sure.
One thing I have noticed is how some drivers on a 110KPH 3 lane freeway drive the same as if they are in the city - only they are doing over 110KPH usually 120KPH or thereabouts - tailgating other cars, chop & change lanes without indicating, cut in front of other cars etc etc and then they wonder why they have/cause collisions.
No wonder some of our youth drive the same they are only taking a leaf out of the book of some of their so called mentors.

[Sturdee]

My two kids obtained their licences as soon as they turned 18 but untill they SAVED up the money to buy their OWN cars they could only drive our cars on our conditions and our supervision. This allowed them to borrow cars to go to Tafe or Uni but not for driving at night to pubs etc.

When they had saved up enough money to buy their first cheap car they were to proud of it to risk an accident. To this date they haven't had a major accident.

Peter.

[LineLefty]

Come sit on the couch:

I ask you all the question then. When you see the young guy in his hotted up commodore with the sunnies and baseball cap, music blaring, driving like an idiot. What exactly is his motivation?

Impress other road users? Impress females? Is it adrenaline? Establishing manhood?

[echnidna]

When I go past the hotted up commode in me old valiant ute.
At the next few sets of lights just keep abreast of him.
When I get sick of foolin around just sink me foot hard.
Reckon theres been a few flash commodes (and fords) gone in for tuneups and rebuilds.

[jackiew]

What exactly is his motivation?

Impress other road users? Impress females? Is it adrenaline? Establishing manhood?

never having been a young man I couldn't say but having (once upon a time) been a young woman I can only remember thinking "what a w*****r". I suspect that they are trying to get attention any way they can - its a way of shouting "look at me" in the same way that toddlers want you to watch them walk along the top of a wall for the nth time.

And lets face it if you are young, haven't got much money, aren't good looking, don't have a fantastic personality no-one is going to be paying you any attention at all. I'm always bemused by young men who shout rude things out of car windows at me in the street I always want to ask "why are you shouting at me - no-one else cares about your opinions why should I be any different".

Maybe we should have a series of tv adverts where young and attractive women discuss boy-racers in less than complimentary terms.

[LineLefty]

Maybe we should have a series of tv adverts where young and attractive women discuss boy-racers in less than complimentary terms.

Thats not such a bad idea you know. When I was in high school we had to do a story board design for an anti smoking ad.

Basically, two girls were in the toilets discussing some hot guy and doing their best to spruce up their makeup and perfurm etc, they were also smoking. To cut a long story short, she ended up almost kissing the guy ecept he simply said. "you stink".

I think if you could get the message across that chicks think you're a wnka then you might be getting somewhere.

[namtrak]

Australian Bureau of Statistics Mortality Atlas

Age Standardised Death Rates (deaths per
100,000 persons)

Cause Males Females
Malignant Neoplasms 237.8 146.7
Ischaemic Heart Disease 190.0 119.9
Cerebrovascular diseases 65.8 65.8
Chronic lower respiratory diseases 46.6 23.2
Diabetes mellitus 18.8 13.6
Influenza and pneumonia 13.4 11.4
Accidents 35.6 17.7
Motor vehicle traffic accidents 13.1 5.5
Intentional self harm (suicide) 21.9 5.5
Organic, including symptomatic, mental disorders 9.3 10.8


I know its an old chestnut, but for those old fogies/woodies before you/we run off on the car crusade, maybe we should lose a few kilos, slap some sunscreen on, put that beer down and leave the next cigarette alone!!! And if we are depressed - maybe go down to the pub and drink some rasberry to minimise our personal problems!!!

Cheers

[bitingmidge]

Malignant Neoplasms 237.8

The new V8 Turbo Mitsubishi sports car eh??

Cheers,

P :D

[namtrak]

Originally Posted by namtrak
Malignant Neoplasms 237.8



The new V8 Turbo Mitsubishi sports car eh??

Cheers,

P :D


Actually in hindsight I think it might refer to angry people who watch too many repeats of the Matrix on big screen TV's?

[DanP]

Where do I start? Just came across this thread and I find it to be interesting reading. Not the people dying bit, the discussion.

I think the idea of a curfew is rediculous for several reasons. Many young people work shift work at servos, supermarkets, fast food outlets, etc. There goes their job if you impose a curfew. Also, if you limit their driving, they will play up more in the hours they are allowed to drive and do you tink for a moment that the ones who are willing to drive at 180 km/h will pay attention to a curfew?

Video games - are you kidding?

High Powered vehicles. I work in an area where the kids are mostly bought their cars by their parents. I'm not talking about the datto 120Y either, Skylines, hotted up Lancers, SS Commodores, WRX's. You name it. P platers in Victoria are power limited to 125 kilowatts per ton. When I got to the area I wanted to knock off a few of these kids in their rockets but VicRoads hasn't issued a restricted vehicles list since 1999. All of their cars are newer than that so they are still driving cars way too powerful for them. I think the idea of power restriction is a good one but 125kw/ton is too much. It should be reduced to 100 kw and motorbikes should be at the very most, 125cc.

Lefty, you should come and see the 'culture' that is in this town. Roll your seat right back, sub woofers in the back, crank the stereo up till you can hear it a kilometre away (not kidding) and do laps around town in convoy. These kids must do 100+ laps of a small country town on a friday night. Must cost them a fortune in fuel, but all the chicks get to see them and everyone else gets to see their hot car. You hit the nail right on the head. In fact, most of them can't even tell you why they've just driven past you for the fifteenth time in ten minutes.

I actually drive faster now than I ever did. I've been trained to do it though. I think we should stop teaching kids how to get their licence and start teaching them how to drive. Skid pan training should be a must. P platers should have governors set at 115 km/h on their cars.

Silent, In answer to your concerns for your own son. You will not be with him every minute. Trust that you have brought him up the right way and that he knows what is safe and what is not.

All kids will speed at some time and for as long as cars are under the control of a human driver we WILL have fatal accidents on the road.

Dan

[Zed]

as long as we have petrol, cars, testosterone, good looking birds to impress, peer group pressure etc people will die on the roads.

the unfortunate thing is that sometimes not just the wank@r in the driver seat dies.

The only answer (Preparing to be flamed) is to make modification of cars illegal, confiscate cars, rip up liscence and not let people drive until they are 65!

Man, I remember my first car I shoulda died a couple of times over.... sometimes darwin candidates dont get thier lotto numbers drawn eh ? ever seem the lucky wildebeast on that nature show that had no tail, limped, only one horn and a grey muzzle ?

[Peter R]

After todays revelations in the press it puts a larger, far-reaching concept on the loss of these three lives.
The lad was not allowed to drive this car. His father had told him it was off- limits and yet the lad sneaked the car out to die and kill in it.
I raised the issue of standards in another thread. Ken Moroney raised the issue of standards afterwards in the press and here again is an issue of standards.
If this lad had taken a gun, belonging to his father, and shot two people and himself he would be guilty of murder/suicide and his father would be charged with not securing a fire arm.
I am not suggesting that the parent should be charged with owning this car or for not ensuring that it was immobolised when he was not around, but I am suggesting that through the confusing standards that abound in society, society is culpable.
The legislators are not able to point to their own standards as the idealistic way to live in society so they just follow the dictates of the do-gooders, the greenies and the civil libbers who all have a different set of standards, have different agendas and no real solution to the problems that abound in society.
It is no good applying the standards of yesterday to todays youth, things have changed dramatically, there is little respect for parents or for elders coming from the youth of the day.
The words from 'Dan" are words of wisdom and words from a person on the front line, but it needs more - Permanent loss of license for any P plater caught speeding 30k over the limit anywhere. Much better than permanent loss of life for speeding.
Nothing will change until there is sufficient deterrent to, at least, take the rat-bag off the road one way or the other.
The Civil Libbers will say that everyone has the right to drive a car, but I say I have the right drive a car and live.
Sorry, folks, it really gets up my nose when lily-livered politicions will not legislate to save lives.http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon8.gif
Peter R.

[silentC]

When I posted this yesterday, I was motivated more by a feeling I get from time to time about my kids. I probably empathise too much with what it must feel like when you get that four o'clock knock. The feeling that there's nothing you can do, he/she is gone and wont be coming back. That must be very hard to deal with.

I know there is no easy solution to the problem. As Namtrak points out, there are plenty of other ways they're more likely to go, although I'd like to see an age-group breakdown of those stats.

I know what I was like when I was that age and I know how I'd have felt if anyone tried to stop me from driving. It's hard to think of a solution that is not going to discriminate against individuals or cost a heap of money. Maybe it's just going to be a fact of life. Part of the balance. A lot of kids used to die during birth or not make it to adulthood. That's a lot rarer these days, so maybe this is just compensation for that. I don't know.

[barnsey]

PeterR makes a good point

"It is no good applying the standards of yesterday to todays youth, things have changed dramatically, there is little respect for parents or for elders coming from the youth of the day."

If I'd stolen my fathers car, I'd wouldn't have been able to sit for the first week of the grounding I'd received. The do gooders now call that "abuse", but it was a brilliant deterrent ;)

Then I see in todays press an article on the effects of video games - another of the must have entertainment items for kids these days - stating in their opinion the games were teaching children to be shooters and not respect anyone :mad:

So we have a generation that has no respect for anyone? anything? If you look at the change society has gone through and the results today and try and think where it will be in another 50 - f@#$%&g scary. :eek:

There's a lot to be said about "spare the cane or spoil the child" - not that I necessarilly advocate corporal punishment but a disciplined approach is something I believe is required to avoid total anarchy. If that means greater fines/penalties so be it however that is just a small part of it, seems to me culture is way off the rails. :(

Jamie

[TassieKiwi]

I think that that if namtrak had those stats for 17-25 yr old males, the highest cause for males would be suicide, followed by auto accidents.

I've done a bit of reading (Iron John by Robert Bly, and Manhood by Steve Biddulph ..an aussie) and there is a groundswell of thinking that points toward a lack of a)mentoring from older males 'other' than dad, and b) a lack of any formal initiation of a young man into 'manhood', as a key scource of this ubiquitous anti social/self harming/violent behaviour by young men.

Some quotes from the book:

The result of this lack of male contact [for boys] is a problem we are all aware of: that in today's world, little boys just grow into bigger little boys. These emotional children in adult bodies then spend their lives pretending. The loneliness of this and the confusion - not knowing how to be comfortable with one's feelings or how to be close to others just makes the pretending more compulsive and more isolating. The loneliness of men is something women rarely understand."
"Good friends [at times of relationship crisis] will listen to you talk about your problems but they also have fun, take you 'up the bush', eat, cook and play. They will also - when the time is right - point out that it's time you got back to your family and sorted things out. It's as if male friends and elders bathe your wounds, refresh you, give you a hug and then throw you back into the ring!"

Chec it out:www.certifiedmale.org/wint95/manhood.htm

and maybe :www.manhood.com.au/

Couple this with the over 50% of homes without any dad or other father figure around, things get even more messy, as the teens then look to other teens for direction, and lookout - Lord of the Flies in every town.

Is it time for us to stop excpecting 'them' to sort it out, and maybe take a grasp of the beast ourselves? Form metoring groups, offer to help with the neighbouring single mum, whatever. Maybe it could save lives, and make a difference.

End of rave.http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon7.gif

[HappyHammer]

Is it time for us to stop excpecting 'them' to sort it out, and maybe take a grasp of the beast ourselves? Form metoring groups, offer to help with the neighbouring single mum, whatever. Maybe it could save lives, and make a difference.
I like this suggestion, I had an uncle that I used for this when I had things I "couldn't" speak to my Dad about. Fortunately my uncle is a pretty good bloke and steered me in the right direction without making any decisions for me. I had a lot of respect for my uncle and when he confirmed points of view my Dad had I listened. Unfortunately for my Dad he didn't have the time to explain the background to every piece of guidance he gave us and was unaware of which ones we latched onto, enter my uncle.

I'd be happy to do this and have a mentor for my son, you can manufacture this relationship without your kids knowing as well to ensure they get a good mentor.

HH.

[barnsey]

All my Dad's mates were "uncle" to me - that was the respect I was taught to treat them with! :o

They would take me to the footy, one even took me to father & son night coz Dad was out of town. But back then there was a real sense of community and the kids all played cricket & footy together on the street in front of our houses. :)

Don't know about you guys but city life these days you're flat out getting a wave from neighbours much less knowing their names. Kids get driven to and from school and I haven't had to wait while kids take the wicket/fruitbox/rubbish bin off the road for longer than I can remember. Community is insular and polarised - not sure that is good. :(

Mentoring - a fine idea but with the community as insular as it is it's hard to know whether you should trust school teachers who don't even need to hold a Blue Card. You would want to be pretty sure whoever is organising mentors that they are capable and screen every potential mentor. After all they are all fine upstanding citizens until the freaks get caught - or at least in the society in general. :rolleyes:

Where will we be in 50 years??? :confused:

[Zed]

I dont want to offend anyone but :

this is all well and good - the facts remain :

a very stupid individual removed himself from the gene pool.

According the the news he also took with him a 15 year old girl who was 7 months pregnant and the 30 old year (approx) man who made her that way. under the laws of nsw shagging a 15 year old is against the law and makes the 30 yr old a peodofile...

for the best ?

what a depressing topic!

[HappyHammer]

Mentoring - a fine idea but with the community as insular as it is it's hard to know whether you should trust school teachers who don't even need to hold a Blue Card. You would want to be pretty sure whoever is organising mentors that they are capable and screen every potential mentor. After all they are all fine upstanding citizens until the freaks get caught - or at least in the society in general. :rolleyes:

Where will we be in 50 years??? :confused:
I wouldn't suggest just anyone be a mentor and the organiser would be me for my kids if possible. I grew up in a shi1ty part of a very large city where community was also a thing of the past but was lucky enough to find a mentor, I don't think it's impossible to find this today. It would be pretty easy for me to find such a mentor amongst my friends.

Obviously kids can choose there own mentors and it shouldn't be too difficult to pick up who they are if you're looking for it, then ensure they are appropriate for the role.

HH.

[craigb]

what a depressing topic!

You got that right Zed.

I also was wondering why the person (didn't realise it was the 30yr old, but that just makes it worse) who'd made a 15yr old pregnant wasn't in custody

[HappyHammer]

You got that right Zed.

I also was wondering why the person (didn't realise it was the 30yr old, but that just makes it worse) who'd made a 15yr old pregnant wasn't in custody
He's dead.

[reeves]

sorry guys but the only solution is when it occurs to the person doing it to, stop and think. All the well menaing suggestions fall on deaf ears.


i have a 13 year old son and i am worried he may do some of the things we did in cars or other wise.

Still i hope he is sensible.

cheeeeeers

[craigb]

Well der. :rolleyes:

I meant BEFORE he was totaled.

[HappyHammer]

Well der. :rolleyes:

I meant BEFORE he was totaled.
I know, just messing with ya.

[silentC]

A few months after my daughter was born, it hit me what a big responsibility I'd taken on. Not only do I have to feed her and put clothes on her back, I'm also largely responsible for the kind of person she turns out to be. You don't get an instruction book. Everyone has theories and ideas and advice but at the end of the day it's up to you. On top of that you get to worry about what might happen to them 'cause you get kind of attached to their cute little faces.

In as much as anything in life is important, your kids are the most important thing in your life, or at least they should be. We brought the poor little buggers into the world so we owe them that much.

You're right, it is depressing. It's depressing that some father up there is wondering how his 15 year old daughter ended up dead in the back of a car with her 33 year old boyfriend and their kid in her belly.

Serious mode off.

[Zed]

stupid sarcastic mode ON

in one foul sweep three candidates for the Darwin award were removed from the gene pool. A theif who doesnt understand physics, a peodofile and a 15 yr old who doesnt know about condoms....

Stupid sarcastic mode OFF.

[Grunt]

I think it is just crap that kids of today are significantly different to kids when I was one. Parents of teenagers in the 60's said that 'Teenagers of today have no respect for their elders, not like in my day'. They said the same in the 70's when I was a teenager and it is being said now.

You might hate 'Doof, doof' and rap music of today. My parents weren't all that fond of Led Zeppelin, The Who or Dylan.

We had Pong and Space Invaders when I was a lad. There was plenty of violence around then too. We drove cars too fast. We drank too much. We smoked dope. We did plenty of stupid things.

Telling teenagers they can't do something isn't going to stop them doing it. Threatening them with a beating isn't going to stop them either. Many of my peers were threatened with violence and they were still naughty.

I think the only you can do is educate them, let them know that you are there if they need you and most importantly love them.

[zymurgy]

Looking outside the nine dots here (and I'm not condoning the reckless driving),

BUT, if the hazard was not there (telephone pole), may this thread have taken a different turn.

[craigb]

Looking outside the nine dots here (and I'm not condoning the reckless driving),

BUT, if the hazard was not there (telephone pole), may this thread have taken a different turn.

Yeah. They might have ended up in somebody's living room :eek:

[silentC]

Yeah, instead of a telephone pole, it could have been someone's lounge room window :eek:

[craigb]

Snap, Darren :D

[silentC]

You say living room, I say lounge room :D

Great minds huh?

[DanP]

Lets get something straight. There is only one person to blame for these events. The driver of the car. Society and/or his parents are not. No parent or responsible member of society would condone or encourage someone to drive at 180 km/h. On the whole I find less people speed today, including P platers, than they did when I first joined. I have to work for tickets now. Whereas i used to just stick the radar out the window and hey presto... As many tickets as I wanted.

Dan

[craigb]

You say living room, I say lounge room :D

Great minds huh?

That or the corollary :)

[barnsey]

Hey Dan,

Come and sit in my front yard any time and you'll get as many as you want.
If you've got behind - do it on a Friday or Saturday and you'll need a couple of colleagues with you to keep up. ;)

OK - I live on the corner of two major roads - well major for Tweed Heads!.
Mind you I make beer money with the towies if I'm quick enough :D

My old man engineered me into vehicles that were older and no more than 1500cc coz he figured that to let his son drive a higher powered vehicle was asking for trouble. I had a heap of accidents - travelling to close, not paying attention to the road rather than my mates in the car, too quick on a wet road. Not one of them was at a speed in excess of 60kmh. :o

But I was on shanks pony till it was fixed, most times by me with him giving the directions and expertise to get it ready to send to the spray painter he knew. :rolleyes:

That is - responsibility after the event was applied in the hope that I'd learn the concept. I have a 17 year old who's been working for 2 1/2 years who's asking for a car for Christmas :eek:

She has this notion that I've discovered a money tree while she's shopping for what seems like an endless supply of apparell that if I'd come across at that age I'd have thought it was Christmas. What she expects having $2.53 in the bank is beyond Darwins theories but that's the way it is today they keep telling me :rolleyes:

Bullsh :mad:

We'll probably acquiesce but only because it's more pleasent when she's not here than when she is! :eek: We're trying to work out a program that ensures she contributes significantly to the cost and meets her own running costs ;)

Kids have got to a point where gratification is something that happens immediately, video games, movies, TV, cars etc. :(

I say again - we are creating a monster for the future by complying with the demands and expectations of the new generation :eek: :eek:

Jamie

[TassieKiwi]

We're not alone in history......

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.

ATTRIBUTION: Attributed to SOCRATES by Plato, according to William L.
Patty and Louise S. Johnson, Personality and Adjustment, p. 277
(1953)."

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on
frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond
words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and
respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise
[disrespectful] and impatient of restraint" (Hesiod, 8th century BC).

So there ya go. Tearing around in chariots in thier cups, laying waste to thier togas and sandals in Athens.

[DanP]

Jamie,

It's quite simple, buy her the car. It's then hers. If she wants to be able to run it she'll have to learn to budget for it. I had to buy my own cars and I have had three Datsuns, an old Ford, an old Celica and a newish Commodore which is now oldish. I borrowed money for the last two and I'm still paying for them.

Dan

[Wood Borer]

The kids of today are the product of their parent’s generation, in this case my generation.

Whilst you may find flaws with the kids of today, it was us (most of us anyway) who brought these kids up into what they are.

I can never be sure when I criticise the younger generation whether I am being an old grumpy phart or whether I have something genuine to whinge about. I nearly always thought my parent’s generation were sad old whingers complaining about our music and energy of youth. Is this me too?

I support the younger generation, yes there are some fools like there were when I was younger but our generation has many fools also who even with the hindsight of experience still behave like rude idiots.

[BigPop]

I made all my kids (4 girls) all pay for their own cars. They were all like typical teenagers of the day and all wanted Dad to buy them one but I stuck firm and made them save and buy their own. They appreciated it more that way methinks. Also used to tell them (bluff should be the right word I s'pose) that if I ever caught them speeding I would personally issue them with a ticket and if someone told me about their bad driving beahviour I would also give them one. Plus told them all that my mates had their rego numbers and descriptions of their cars and were keeping an eye out for them.
They are all grown and mature women now and all respected the road rules and drove sensibly (as far as I know) thank heavens and it is a credit to all of them.
They proved me wrong and now I suffer for it as I have to pay bribes out to placate them now :(:( still they are bloody good kids and I wouldn't swap them for the world.

[jackiew]

I think bigPete is right, if you paid for it you look after it better.

Making kids pay for things helps them learn the difference between want and need. I've noticed that if my son wants me to pay for something and I suggest that he buys it out of HIS money not mine then 9 times out of 10 he finds he doesn't want it THAT much.

if you think your son or daughter is a good loan risk you can always lend them some of the money for a car and charge them the interest you would have got if you'd left the money in the bank. But don't be soft ... if you don't reckon they will pay you back then don't do it - let them learn the consequences of not paying a loan back the hard way.

Jackie ( who rather likes that bumper sticker which says "I'm spending my children's inheritance" ).

[jow104]

all New Cars Should Have Cruise Control Fitted By Law & Electronicly Controllable

[Honest Gaza]

Sorry Boys....I don't think there are any guarantees.

No. 1 Son got his licence in February of this year. We gave him my wife's previous car ( Hyundai Excel ) and expected him to save and pay for Registration and Insurance. Sometime around June he was caught speeding more than 30k's over the 70km speed limit. This resulted in him losing his licence until the end of January 2005. We had a heart to heart discussion on the issue ( no ranting and raving ), and I firmly believed he understood that he had stuffed up big time.

A couple of months ago my wife went out shopping for the day and got home earlier than expected. To her surprise, our Son's car was no longer sitting in the front yard. She rang him, and it seems that he had decided that he had some urgent bills to pay and took the car to the local post office. Again, I tried the Mike Brady approach ( no ranting and raving ) and expressed my disappointment. I made him aware of the insurance issues that would have arisen should he have had an accident while unlicenced and generally reiterated that I thought he was a "Bloody Idiot".

We haven't had any further problems with the Excel disappearing ( may have something to do with the fact that I sold it ).

So today No.1 Son asks me "Did you read the story in the paper this morning about the P-Plater who crashed his Dad's car ?"

I said "I hope YOU read the story....a bit close to home I think"

He said "How stupid is the father for leaving the keys there while he was away"

Now you can imagine....me and No.1 Son had further words.

My point is, I believe I have brought my Son up to know right from wrong and what is expected from him. When he has deserved it, he got a kick up the backside....so I haven't always tried the Mike Brady approach. But, there are no guarantees that we are going to be 100% successful as parents. All we can do is try our best and hope that some of it will get through.

Right now, my XR6 Turbo sits in the garage....and my keys are RIGHT WHERE I CAN SEE THEM.

[Gumby]

all New Cars Should Have Cruise Control Fitted By Law & Electronicly Controllable

So should kids.............. ;)

[bitingmidge]

I made all my kids (4 girls) all pay for their own cars. They were all like typical teenagers of the day and all wanted Dad to buy them one but I stuck firm and made them save and buy their own. ...
They are all grown and mature women now and all respected the road rules and drove sensibly (as far as I know) thank heavens and it is a credit to all of them.
... still they are bloody good kids and I wouldn't swap them for the world.
Same for me only 3 girls - their cars started as $200.00 rejects, but were worth close to $2000 by the time they hit the road with brakes overhauled, new tyres and batteries, and a bit of a body clean.

All were "forced" to enjoy the hard work as well, and as a result appreciated that they had really put together really sound vehicles for a lot less than they could have bought a car in similar mechanical condition.

While they were students they were responsible for all running costs as well, except that we paid for tyres, brakes and safety repairs to ensure that in their "brokedness" safety wasn't compromised. If the car broke, they used buses and trains till they could afford the repairs (I can only think of two instances outside of regular service intervals).

Two of them have had theirs for over five years, and still treat them with pride and respect! The other sold hers to go overseas, and lashed out on her return on a $4,000 special, but took the same approach to achieve a safe reliable vehicle (with a smallish sub woofer :eek: )

Cheers,

P

[Peter R]

Lets get something straight. There is only one person to blame for these events. The driver of the car. Society and/or his parents are not. No parent or responsible member of society would condone or encourage someone to drive at 180 km/h. On the whole I find less people speed today, including P platers, than they did when I first joined. I have to work for tickets now. Whereas i used to just stick the radar out the window and hey presto... As many tickets as I wanted.

Dan
If I may, I would disagree with you Dan, society will be at blame whilst it allows so much lattitude for kids - ie. kids devorcing parents - kids being paid to leave home - kids getting warnings for shop lifting only to return to the same store to continue where they left off, teachers not allowed to talk harshly to pupils, parents not allowed to give the kids a good wallop when needed. This, of course, allows for one thing and that is kids that know their rights "All I have ta' do is say that you hit me and you'll be in trouble". an actual statement by a 14 year old to his teacher.
When government, through the pressure of the ill-informed do-gooders, take over the roll of the family unit (and we see how good they are at that with the horendous mistakes of DOCS) society is again to blame.
Sorry Dan but that's how I see it.
Peter R.

[TSHSR]

Big Pete, I wouldnt have that job for quids, my respect goes to those who can do it, even once, let alone more.

I am 6months into the learner driver thing with my 16 yr old, it is very difficult to get the mesage of speed across "80 clicks is so slow" he says.
The best thing a corporate company I worked for some years ago did was to put us all through the advanced driver traing course for 2 days. When you cream the cones at 60 k's and think how the hell did I hit them it starts to sink in.
I reckon (for what its worth) that all learner drivers should be put through a tough defensive driver training program every 3months from the time they get their L's.

Just on the crash that started all this, I am very concerned by the role of the 33 year old in this. The paper said that the 33 yr old and his 15 yr old pregnant girlfriend. It is very hard for teenagers to repell the pressure of a much older "friend" who is egging them on, the guy was possibly a predator of sorts if he is hanging around with 15 to 18 year olds.

Prohibition of anything only creates a black market in that item, or endeavour, just look at the number of people who have lost their licences and still drive!

[DanP]

Peter,

You may state your opinioin anytime you like. As I have stated mine. We will have to agree to disagree though. I think that the biggest issue in the world today is the refusal by anyone to accept responsibility for their actions. It's why there's so many lawsuits and sadly, society, through it's courts, allows it to continue. I say, if you stuff up, wear it on the chin when you get caught, don't blame your upbringing or your horrible addiction or anyone else that really had nothing to do with it etc.

Dan

[RETIRED]

I normally don't offer an opnion as I try to be neutral BUT!!!

Over the past 35 years of having my licence I have done 4 advanced driving courses, driven rally cars, had a go at go-karts, raced speedway and driven Formula vees and a formula 5000 car.

At the outset of all driving courses the first words generally uttered by the instructor is that the person who holds the wheel is the person responsible for the vehicle. No one else.

Funny thing about cars is that unless it is a learner vehicle there is only one set of pedals and they are under the feet of the person holding the wheel.

Press the right hand one down ithe vehicle goes quicker. Push the middle one and it slows down.

So, get real people. No one forced the driver to go at 180KPH. No one forced him to take a car that he was not supposed to have. Society is not to blame for his stupidity.

Ther is only one person to hold responsible for this accident. He who held the wheel. Luckily he did not kill otherinnocent motorists.

[TassieKiwi]

Peter,

I say, if you stuff up, wear it on the chin when you get caught, don't blame your upbringing or your horrible addiction or anyone else that really had nothing to do with it etc.

Dan
Yeah, what he said. The Eagles have a cool song 'Get over it' on this theme. Worth a listen.

Mind you, in order to fix the problem we might need to look beyond the 'pedal operator'

Den

[Grunt]

The Eagles have a cool song 'Get over it' on this theme

You mean that The Eagles have another song besides 'Hotel California'?

[DaveInOz]

It is only a small thing but I think (all) people need to be taught that there is no such thing as an accident, there is always a cause and there is always fault.
Even if someone hits you, could you have anticipated them moving, were you going too fast to avoid them, were you in their blind spot, were your reactions delayed because you were distracted .... sure they will wear the majority of the blame, but don't imagine you played no part, and don't dismiss it as an accident, or something unavoidable / inevitable, admit the faults you made and don't make them again.
The best advice I received was 'remember you are invisable' and 'always have an escape plan.' If there is no escape route you know you are in trouble so slow down until there is one, then when something unexpected happens you'll know were to go safely.
There are no accidents in cars, call them collisions or something that isn't dismissive of fault.

[Wood Borer]

In my earlier thread I wasn’t suggesting we let wrongdoers off the hook, I was suggesting that perhaps some parents and society have been remiss in not teaching the wrongdoers right from wrong or consideration of others.

If people have been exposed to figuring out consequences and thinking of others then they might not act in such selfish ways.

I think a breach should be punished no matter what the reason behind the breach. Certainly gaoling, fining, canceling of licences etc won’t heal the wounded or bring the corpses back to life but it may influence some others not to be so stupid. If it doesn’t then the offenders are out of the way for awhile – no long enough generally.

As Zed suggested, foolishness leads to Dave’s collisions, injuries or death which is nature’s way of ensuring future generations are less likely to carry the idiot gene. Unfortunately when cars are involved, the consequences of stupidity also affect others rather than just the idiot.

No wonder the selfish and foolish don’t go for the woodworking, if we stuff up we have to throw it away. Appealing with pathetic excuses to the bandsaw or the lathe after a disaster doesn’t reverse our mistake but most of us do take more care next time and learn from our experieces.

[DaveInOz]

No wonder the selfish and foolish don’t go for the woodworking, .
Speak for yourself :o

Appealing with pathetic excuses to the bandsaw or the lathe after a disaster doesn’t reverse our mistake.
But kicking it, swearing at it, then storming off for a beer is highly therapeutic ;)

[johna]

All this talk about high powered cars is a load of hogwash.
Doesn't matter if you give them a R34 GTR , WRX , 200sx or a god damn commodore or falcon. All these cars can reach very high speeds, just that the first 3 i mentioned can do them quicker. The biggest problem we face today is driver attitude.
I own a modified WRX but do not go out onto the streets everyday thinking i'm in a race, i reserve it for the race track.
To restrict a P plater from driving high powered cars will not work because even in a kia rio you can hit speeds of up to 180km/h and this is were we are losing our kids on the roads.
The government isn't doing jack about any of this, they think putting all these revenue raising cameras all over the highways and open roads will save lives...hahahahaha, pitty that these deaths are happening on 50km/h roads.
They also mention driver training to become compulsary, ok so lets see here, you take a young arrogant P plater with a bad attitude and teach him how to handle a car, what will this acheive??? it will acheive another death on the roads as this now more arrogent and more confident kid will push his car even further than before thinking to himself i am ready for every situation.

[DanP]

Feel better ? :p ;)

[RETIRED]

:D

[LineLefty]

Doesnt the driver training make you realise just fragile your control of a car actually is?

[Peter R]

Peter,

You may state your opinioin anytime you like. As I have stated mine. We will have to agree to disagree though. I think that the biggest issue in the world today is the refusal by anyone to accept responsibility for their actions. It's why there's so many lawsuits and sadly, society, through it's courts, allows it to continue. I say, if you stuff up, wear it on the chin when you get caught, don't blame your upbringing or your horrible addiction or anyone else that really had nothing to do with it etc.

Dan
Dan,

Acceptance of responsibility - I agree wholeheartedly.
I say society is to blame( I stated the circumstances)
You say 'society, through the courts has allowed it' to continue'. Society to blame??
Passing the blame or having an excuse has never been in my ideology.
But again, society has allowed crims of all sorts to blame someone else, it is a greatly used defence in the courts, is it not?
I do not think that we disagree all that much Dan.

Now, my mate agrees with the concept that P plates and learners tickets are used for an apprenticeship into driving. They are to show that the person is worthy of a full license if they behave sensibly. Given that a person is not fully brain sufficient until they are thirty,(her words, and boy,can she fight) my mate reckons that if you exceed the speed limit by 30ks on P's or Ls that you should be told to come back when you are thirty. If you are caught driving in that period, along with the appropriate penalty, another five years should be added on to the application for re-plating.
The politicians are doing the two foot shuffle at the moment hoping that their overseas study tours come up before they have to make a decision.

Peter R.http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ozwinner]

I normally don't offer an opnion as I try to be neutral BUT!!!

Over the past 35 years of having my licence I have done 4 advanced driving courses, driven rally cars, had a go at go-karts, raced speedway and driven Formula vees and a formula 5000 car.

.
That must have been one big go cart. :D :D

Only Kidding. :D

Al :D :D

[DavidG]

Does not matter what we say or what we do, Mother nature will always find a way to adjust the gene pool.

[Iain]

Unfortunately I have deleivered too many trauma debriefing for fatals (I used to contract to TAC) and the number of times I heard 'he really was a good driver', 'he knew what he was doing, what went wrong'.
In short, although I never said it was, he was not a good driver, he was a dickhead and had no idea how to control a car.
My daughter is currently on her L's and thinks nothing of cruising at 100kph, she thinks it's cool.
I let her loose in the middle of a wet paddock and when she turned at about 25kph the car went for a slide, what did she do, panicked let go of the wheel and braked.
We achieved 3 360's and a bit of screaming but I got the result I was after, she slows down now realising that she can't drive that well.
We live opposite a T intersection just out of town, the intersection is invariably covered with gravel and we get about 4 cars a year cruise straight through and into our embankment generally wrecking the said car.
What makes this even better is that every bingle has been by a local hoon who travels these roads on a regular basis and KNOWS THAT YOU CANNOT BRAKE HARD IN GRAVEL, but they persist.
TMU sit up the road from us and manage to demolish the bank accounts of local hoons who want to travel well over 100kph in an 80 zone, but they still persist.
My own pet hate is young girls in Excels with P plates, they are so bloody arrogant and always want to be in front, sitting at the lights in my 4.5litre Landcruiser with a float and two TB's on board, all up about 5 tonnes, and I can still out accellerate them but they still want to be in front and try to cut me off, half the time I never see them coming but have to brake hard to avoid hitting them, and the donkeys just love that, smacking their big noses into the window.
There is a theory that hotted up cars are generally owned by under achievers who have no control of their own lives and this is the only time that they are in control, albeit not very well.

[jow104]

Ian

Thats what I said the other day the young ladies all seem to want to jump me at the lights.

If the commercial world had invested the money spent on mobile telephone technology on a form of cruise control for motor vehicles with external electronic control, driving would be a much safer way of life.

So anyone wanting to create a new and worthwhile industry why not give the above thought a whiz. The basis for this advance is already lying around, they puts chips on windscreens so those chips could be programed to do other things.

That fellow Peter (whats is name?) should be able to make a dummy set up.

[stevephillips]

Last year I was unfortunate enough to come across an MVA on the way home from work. A Hyundi Excel had failed to take a bad downhill corner and hit a tree square on at around 90 kph. There were a lot of vehicles stopped and people milling around, I was going to keep driving but I stopped and walked down. The bystanders said there was only one occupant but when I tore the passenger window out there were two young men inside. One was dead and the other died while I tried to revive him.
They were both wearing seatbelts.
The next day I was driving home and saw a solitary man standing where the boys had died. I stopped and approched him as I had a feeling about it.
The two boys aged 23 and 28 were his sons.
He told me they were normally carefull drivers and always wore seat belts, he asked if they had suffered any pain before they died, what do you say?
I see a lot of people die in my line of business but this incident has effected me more than I can explain.
The car was not hotted up and provided precious little protection for the occupants.
I believe that young people will inevitably take risks in motor vehicles and need better driving training to deal with situations when things turn pear shaped. We do need to place limits on young drivers and hope that they survive long enough to pass the "personal myth" stage. But we can never completely eliminate risk taking or accidents.

[Ben from Vic.]

But again, society has allowed crims of all sorts to blame someone else, it is a greatly used defence in the courts, is it not?

Peter, it's not really society that has allowed criminals to get away with what they do, but the judges, lawyers and system.

Hence we call it a "legal system" not a "justice system".


Steve Phillips.

Truly touching story. Very sad for a father to loose two sons in one go.

As a side note, I read today that it's generaly accepted that accidents above 80kph will often be fatal. The (better engineered) cars can take more, we can't. The forces acting on the body increase exponetialy (sp?) with speed (sort of like the db rating, and vehicle braking distances).

Vehicles are crash tested at 65kph, and this is an offset frontal impact, into a (slightly) absorbent structure. Alowing the front of the car to take the impact.

Side impact offers only minimal protection.

Aparently if they have an accident on the Autobahn they don't usually need an ambulance.

[adrian]

I'm afraid there is nothing you can do to stop it. The young are risk takers. That's why the Quit campaign will never stop young people from taking up smoking. If you tell a young person that they will get sick or die if they do something they will just give you the standard answer, "well at least I'll be a young, good looking corpse." It's what I said as a boy and what my father and grandfather would have said. The young are immortal.
The only thing that can be done is to make it harder for them to kill themselves. One of the ways would be to stop kids modifying cars. They think that because they modify their cars so that they resemble race cars they will handle better and hold the road better but the opposite is true. If you stiffen the springs and lower the car it will only be stable on the flat surface of a racetrack.
Ask any race driver what's the worst thing you can come across when entering a corner or the braking zone before a corner and they will say "bumps" and our roads are full of them. Bottom out going into a corner and the steering goes light and you understeer of the side of the road. Hit a bump with stiff springs while braking and the brakes lock and the car again understeers of the road.
Why the state government allows all these after market modifications is beyond me.

[Peter R]

Peter, it's not really society that has allowed criminals to get away with what they do, but the judges, lawyers and system.

Hence we call it a "legal system" not a "justice system".


Steve Phillips.

.
I don't want to get into another argument, but what are we denying here? Is it because we are all a part of the Australian society that we want to blame someone else for whatever?
The function of the law, not the law system, is changed on a regular basis, by whom? By society. This is why we have the wrist slap penalties.
We know that if you go to court that you will not get justice you will get the law, and he who pays gets better law.
One part of society, because of its lethargic attitudes, allows others in society to dictate the terms that society abides by.
As the pressure groups in society push the vote button of the politicians changes occur, and in the main society is degrading, so to is all moral ethic, all law enforcement, all family values; all heading in a downward spiral unless society kicks itself in the butt and changes its own ethics to one of survival rather than one of self destruction. http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon9.gif
Society is to blame for the ills of the country - full stop.
Peter R.

[DanP]

Is it because we are all a part of the Australian society that we want to blame someone else for whatever?

Your whole argument lays blame with someone other than the only person at fault here, the driver.

On Friday, a young 17 year old girl, held a licence for four weeks, drove out in front of a B double, killing her rear seat passenger. She failed to give way to the truck, and we believe, was trying to beat the truck out of the intersection. She was hit at about 90 kph. The intersection in question has suffered several fatal and near fatal accidents in the last two years (Three dead in the last 14 months). The intersection itself has been reworked several times in an effort to stop these accidents and is as safe as it can be. There is no reason for these accidents to occur. I suppose society is to blame for these incidents as well.

You can legislate minimum penalties, hand out rediculously harsh penalties and do all sorts of things to try to stop these incidents. One fact remains. There will always be d1ckhe@ds in the world who will do something stupid and kill someone. This will never stop. You can lock up someone speeding for ten years and the next day you will have someone else doing the same or worse.

Dan

[Grunt]

Society is to blame for the ills of the country - full stop.


Hogwash. If you don't like the way Australia deals with an issue, change it. There are plenty of individuals who have gotten off their fat arses and made a positive change to Australia. It seems that you need someone to blame.

[Peter R]

Hogwash. If you don't like the way Australia deals with an issue, change it. There are plenty of individuals who have gotten off their fat arses and made a positive change to Australia. It seems that you need someone to blame.

Who and why, and who benifits from these changes that you talk about. Don't make spacious comments without backing them up. What individula made changes and what where they.
But, please grunt,don't do a my opinion is better than your opinon bit.
Do you think that any changes are needed in our present society? or Do you think that we live in a perfect world that needs no changes?

I might add that I do not need anyone to blame, I am perfect.

Peter R.

[bitingmidge]

Pardon moi, but isn't this whole thread going the way of it's title???
:D :D :D :D

P

[Sturdee]

Pardon moi, but isn't this whole thread going the way of it's title???
:D :D :D :D

P


Yes. ........... It is time to let it be................ R.I.P.


Peter.

[craigb]

Yes. ........... It is time to let it be................ R.I.P.


Peter.

I'll second that Peter.

?

[DanP]

Craig and Peter, self appointed thread nazis.