Speed Cameras

[Peter R]

How about? a device, like a black box recorder in planes, that can be attacked to the vehicle of a convicted speedster. The device could be activated by remote signals to recalibrate at the various speed changes. At any time the person is pulled over, or say on a monthly basis, the box record could be checked, by computer generated equipment( like the gadgets that meter readers use) and any infringement dealt with accordingly.
The speedster could be fined, or lose a license if found driving a vehicle without the box.
Eventually these boxes could be fitted to all new cars - you would know it was there so would you take the chance? - and speed cameras done away with.
You could not say it was more of an infringement on your civil liberties than the compulsory seat belt law.
And in the early days, until people became aware that they could not speed no matter where they were or if the police were around or not, the revenue from these little devices would far out do the cameras, and eventually people would become educated, and resigned to the fact that it is expensive to speed.

Please feel free to railroad.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif
Peter R.

[ozwinner]

Or maybe we could fit fart detectors to every pair of jocks sold, then big brother could tax you for farting??
Ooops, I just cost meself $5 http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/edoom/fart.gif

Al :(

[Tikki]

Been on the highway behind a semi or B-double spitting rocks at you? He's doing 100kph, but knowing the little black box on your new car will record you speeding to overtake this nuisance, what are you gunna do, slink back to 80kph to avoid speeding and a broken windscreen? I'm for leadfoots!! :D :D

[craigb]

Why not a barcode tattooed on the forehead?

[graemet]

Peter,
You must be a bureaucrat! The problem with voicing such an idea is the possibility that some hare brained politician will actually take you seriously and we will sink further into the mire of regulation. Why must we be controlled in everything we do because someone somewhere may be inconvenienced by someone else.
I drove along one of Sydney's busiest highways this afternoon at 40k for over a kilometre because the Kings School has an unbroken fence facing the road and the RTA has determined that it is a school zone. This does not take into account that this bl**dy school has its own set of traffic lights for access into the school yard ( about 2 square miles of it!) , their own bus stop inside the grounds and it's completely unknown for any student there to walk anywhere.
I can't take my grandkids down to the milkbar in my car because I don't have the regulation child seats fitted, it didn't do their parents any harm when they were small. The road toll proves that even with all the current regulation, there are still thousands of idiots that shouldn't have licenses in the first place.
A pox on all such proposals!!!!!!!!
Graeme

[Sir Stinkalot]

How would you know who was driving the car 5km over the limit 3 weeks ago?


How about this ..... drop all speed limits by 10km/h ..... so 100km/h becomes 90km/h ..... change the tollerance to 10km/h ..... so the limit is 90km/h but you will not be booked until you hit 101km/h .... now here is the clincher .... if you are caught doing 105km/h you will be charged as doing 15km/h and you will get a hefty fine.

Just think about it for a minute .... you dont really worry if you are doing 65 km/h in a 60 km/h zone ...... but if you were all of a sudden doing 15 km/h over the signed limit it makes you unconfortable .....

Safe stinky

[graemet]

How about this ..... drop all speed limits by 10km/h ..... so 100km/h becomes 90km/h ..... change the tollerance to 10km/h ..... so the limit is 90km/h but you will not be booked until you hit 101km/h .... now here is the clincher .... if you are caught doing 105km/h you will be charged as doing 15km/h and you will get a hefty fine.
Safe stinky
Stinky,
Same reply, some idiot may just take you seriously. How about remove all speedlimits except for 60 in a built up area. Get booked if you cause an accident by going faster and can't prove that it wasn't your fault. oops, can't do that, just think of all that loverly fine moolah the government won't have to spend.
Graeme

[Sturdee]

Eventually these boxes could be fitted to all new cars - you would know it was there so would you take the chance? - and speed cameras done away with.



I agree with you Graemet. Who would want to buy a new car with such a device fitted?

With stupid and idiotic ideas like these all I can say is " Thank God I drive an old car".


Peter.

[Ben from Vic.]

How about the government prove that they arn't addicted to speed camera revenue and funnel the money from the fines back into improving the quality of our roads?

In addition to this, those hundreds of millions could go to training the drivers of tomorrow as a usefull, proactive safety measure that could genuinly make a difference on the roads.


I see your black box and raise you one......

I want a box that records when people spend excessive amounts of time bellow the speed limit and fines them, automaticly revoking their licenses if this shocking behaviour is commited in anything but the left lane of multi lane roads.


Here is something they don't tell you, speed cameras have been scraped in at least 3 major countries because they found that they don't work.


The governments arn't really that interested in road safety, just the same as most car manufacturers don't really give a cr@p about emisions and work places don't really care about OHS.
It's all about the money. And speed cameras are a license to print it.
I will admit that speed is a contributing factor in many crashes, but it is not the main cause, it just makes the impact worse.


Lack of training and not paying attention is the main cause of most crashes, cameras don't catch these killers, so they ignore it.


Steamingly yours.

Ben.

[sandant]

um dont they already have the means to do this, My brother used to drive rigs for mayne nics and they had computers in the trucks that recorded speed gear change what revs he was doing when he changed gears and so on. along with that the trucks have pics taken of them all over the country by the gov......
I really think our gov can spend more money on health, environment ect allthough if we put this into action we can fine the buggery out of everyone and the gov will be rich no one will drive a car and we will all be very healthy due to exercise and the environment ok as well problem solved.

I watched a program on speeding a long time ago and the thing i remember mostly is the conclusion
"the only way to stop people from speeding and make them be careful on the road is to strap dynamite to every veichle!
in totadys age the veichles are getting faster and safer therefore peoples sence of danger is lowered, if people feel danger each time they get into a car then they will be more careful.

[Wood Borer]

I think the reason most of us sneer at the speed laws is because we see the government is supporting something that gives them money. No different to slippery salesmen. What they are selling happens to tremendously benefit them financially.

Fines can be quite unfair, the poorer person being affected by a $150 fine far more than a wealthier person.

We can’t base fines on tax returns because the wealthy cheat on that also. The Federal Government admitted this fact because it was the main reason GST was introduced.

So why not introduce community service for the speeding. That’s right, no fines - just time. We all have a limited time on earth so spending time doing some good for the community would be fairer while at the same time discouraging drivers from speeding or other offences.

Would Governments introduce such a scheme? Not likely because they would derive absolutely no income from people doing community service. What about the cost of speed detection and supervising the speedsters raking up the leaves? The Government constantly reminds us that the effects of speeding cost the economy heaps so it could be argued they are saving heaps by discouraging speeding.

If such a scheme was introduced, it would remove the suspicion that most people have about speed cameras being a revenue raiser for the State Governments and perhaps give people a better reason to slow down and save the economy from losing money.

Personal suffering and lost ones are of course are secondary to the almighty economy – pretty hard to tax someone on life support or someone six foot under!

[jackiew]

I've had two speeding tickets in my entire life. both times they were on roads where the speed limit goes up and down like a yoyo ( for no discernible reason) and both times I was actually a tadge under what I believed the speed limit was at the time.

I found out later that the cops regularly waited at one of the spots. I went back and checked the signage after the event and it was particularly poor - in retrospect I should probably have kicked up a fuss and got them to move the sign.

The new 40kph speed limits around schools tend to be fairly poorly signposted and they assume that you actually know what time it is - ever tried to check your watch on a motorbike? In some ways it would be easier if they made them permanent because then they could sign post them properly ( coloured stripes on the lamp-posts would be good ).

I've noticed that not many schools here have a fence on the kerb directly in front of the gates ... this stops the kids running straight out of the gates into the road ... they have to turn left or right and it reminds them that the road is there.

[Wongo]

Speeding is a crime. 60 means 60 and 80 means 80.

[Zed]

If you want to be overtly regulated I suggest you go live in Communist China or some other Despotic country somewhere.

Accidents are necessary - they remove idiots and incompetents from the gene pool, hopefully before they breed and spread !!!

Why not go further ? why not fit little black boxes to our kids foreheads and if they ride thier bikes without a helmet the parents get fined!

What about that tosser in Vic. that wants to "improve" speedos so they dont go over 130kmph ?? would not a limiter or making rev-head commercials illegal make more sense ??? of course not - the motor lobby groups and the fine revenue is too powerful. of course its too sensible to do it like this innit ?

Over regulation is bull$hit!

[himzol]

I want a box that records when people spend excessive amounts of time bellow the speed limit and fines them, automaticly revoking their licenses if this shocking behaviour is commited in anything but the left lane of multi lane roads

Ben, this assumes that we should all be driving "at the limit".

I'm sorry but this is a bit of a thorn in my side,
The speed limit set in an area is the maximum speed that any driver should be traveling at, unfortuntly this also includes overtaking on highways.
I agree that these people should be in the extreme left lane, Only because the law (in most states) is that you should be in the left lane unless overtaking.

I drive to work every day and am required to drive between different locations within Adelaide as part of my job. I generraly drive below the speed limit, accelerate slowly and decelerate gradually, mainly because I carry medical equipment in my car. I often have a quiet laugh to myself over the person who has gone speeding past me only to wind up three cars behind me at thenext set of traffic lights (in the other lane).

FWIW my last speeding fine was in 1984, at the time I was at colledge and the fine relly hurt. I decided that the government was not getting any of my money by those means ever again. why should I subsedise their speed camera program.

Himzo.

[sandant]

Or maybe we could fit fart detectors to every pair of jocks sold, then big brother could tax you for farting??
Ooops, I just cost meself $5 http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/contrib/edoom/fart.gif

Al :(

im with oz blown away about 50 bucks today allready ? wonder what a skidmark would cost?

[barnsey]

When we grow up we are taught (generally) that it is not polite to **** in public, not polite to use foul language, not polite to s@#t on the floor or anywhere but in a toilet or other secluded area. And guess what - unless under the influence of mind altering substances it happens :eek:

Why does society need to regulate speed by speed cameras?
Coz they couldn't afford to put poo cameras to cover the whole country :rolleyes:

Anyone who gets caught should be fined and perhaps even heavier. :mad:
Or lets introduce legislation to say it's OK to go straight through a red light coz if you're in a hurry we need to do what you want to do :confused:

Better still put a notice on every lathe sold "You will never suffer any injury from this product no matter what you do"

PLEEEEZZZEE

Jamie

[AlexS]

As my daughter said when she was four years old..."If you let me do what I want to, I wouldn't get into trouble!"

[DaveInOz]

Speed limits are supposedly based on the risk of an incident, driver reaction times etc etc.
Problem is that the driver that is checking the loverly tree in that garden is a danger at any speed. So the speeds are lowered to account for people with poor attention, and slow reflexes.
This mean many people get bored driving, their mind wanders etc. Why are there more accidents on freeways? because they are boring and people stop concentrating.

On a motorcycle you can never lose concentration of the entire road and surroundings, why? because even in a minor incident you can die. In a car a fender bender is a pain but not a problem.
So the reasoning is, cars are too easy to drive, too safe, too condusive to inattention. The answer is a 12" metal spike in the centre of every steering wheel. If even a minor crash could kill you how much attention would you pay? Would you increase the chances of a collision by going too fast for the conditions? The good news is if you answer yes you will soon be killed and no longer a danger to others.

[barnsey]

AlexS

Profound words indeed - and from a four year old ;)

DaveInOz

Why do we need the 12" spike? Surely everyone reads enough newspaper clippings, sees news reports on the TV or knows somebody who has suffered the trauma much less watched a soapie that depicts it and thought..... :confused:

OHHHH I forgot - too much for people to think :rolleyes:


PS. Sorry got 15 & 17 year olds who can't get this concept through their thick heads :confused:
Jamie

[Wood Borer]

I stick to the limit now - I only do it to save money which is not a satisfactory reason at all.

I also tell SWMBO that every 3rd time I don't get booked, I can afford to buy an new LN plane!

The joy of the planes far outweighs the joy of receiving a fine. The logic is a bit twisted I know but I am happy.

I think most people see excessive speeding as not a good thing but most people see 3 or 5 Km/h over the limit as ridiculous and purely money grabbing.

If 3 Km/h over the limit is dangerous, then perhaps we should be educated rather than punished.

[craigb]

I also tell SWMBO that every 3rd time I don't get booked, I can afford to buy an new LN plane!



But how do you figure out when the times would have been when you would have been booked?

[Wood Borer]

But how do you figure out when the times would have been when you would have been booked?


Shhhhhhhhh, just whose side are you on? :D

That No 5 you had a play with was paid for not getting booked at the following places:

Maroondah Highway 1/4/04 10:43 AM

Hume Highway Goulburn 10/5/02 11:12 PM (Could have been a big fine if I was speeding a lot)

Main Drag of Rockhampton 2/9/01 8:01 PM (If there had been a breathalyser there and if I had been pulled over and blew over the limit the taxi fare back to Melbourne would have cost heaps so a No5 is cheap in anyone's language)

All my planes have been paid for in this manner and just look at how much I have saved.
:confused

[Ben from Vic.]

This is a subject that really gets my goat because I live in Victoria, speed camera capital of Australia.

A few years ago (about two or three) the road toll had droped, the number of people (being caught) speeding was down, everything was good.
It appeared people were finaly changing their ways. This was what the state government wanted, right?

Wrong.

The move that made a mockery of the whole "we're only doing this for you" deal was soon to follow.

The state govenrment lowered the tolerance from 10% to three kph across the board.

This means that instead of being allowed to be 10% over the limit before being fined (this is fair because car speedo's are only required to be winthin 10% of the speed they're reading), if my car rolls up to 104 in a 100 zone, I'm considered lethal, but 103 and I'm OK.

We (Victorian drivers) met the targets, they changed the rules to compensate.

In a little bit of a follow on from Dave, the most destracing thing while driving, is now the speedo. People used to watch the road and check the speedo, now they watch the speedo and check the road.


Himzol.
I support peoples right to travel at a reasonable level under the limit, but the amount of times I'm ( and the 20 or 30 cars with me) forced to travel at the speed someone else deems safe (or, more truthfully, feels like doing) is, quite simply, disgusting (this mainly applies to those who drive slowly in anything but the left lane).

My other thought is if people don't think they're safe doing 80 in an 80 zone on a normal day and feel the need to drive at 60 instead, they shouldn't be on the road at all. They shouldn't have a license.

Ps. I don't knwo how you drive, so this isn't to personal. ;)



BTW I've only had one speeding fine, about 4 years ago, and I was caught fair and square by a real person.


Ben.

[Sturdee]

I think most people see excessive speeding as not a good thing but most people see 3 or 5 Km/h over the limit as ridiculous and purely money grabbing.

If 3 Km/h over the limit is dangerous, then perhaps we should be educated rather than punished.

A 3 or 5 Km/h over the limit is less than the 10 % tolerance in speedo accuracy that the goverment allows through the design rules. Thus whilst thinking you are obeying the speed limit you are often speeding and liable to get booked.

Thus it is purely money grabbing and maybe the pollies and public servants who allow this situation to remain should be sent away for " re-education ".


Peter.

[DanP]

Wow, so many things for me to comment on.

First, the start of the thread want speed recordings in cars. How does the car know what the speed zone is? Or where you are for that matter? Or who's driving? All crucial points if you want to charge or fine someone. The cost of such a system would be massive.

Ben said, "I want a box that records when people spend excessive amounts of time bellow the speed limit and fines them"

Can't agree more. IMHO people who are well under the speed limit (15 - 20 kph not 5kph) are a greater danger on the road than the 6 or 7 k's over people who get fined by camera's.

Rob (WB) said, "Fines can be quite unfair, the poorer person being affected by a $150 fine far more than a wealthier person"

I can't see what's fairer than everybody getting the same penalty for the same offence. Sure it hits the poorer people harder, but it's fair.

Daveinoz said, "Why are there more accidents on freeways? because they are boring and people stop concentrating"

Spot on IMO. Fatigue is a massive killer on major STRAIGHT roads. You nod off in town and you run up somones bum. You do it at 100 kph and someone dies. Another big cause IMO is inattention due to boredom.


The default speed limit in a built up area is 50 kph. In School Zones this 50 becomes 40 kph - 24 HOURS A DAY. Why have a school area as 40 kph at 2am? Or on the weekend? Why? Because you can stick a camera in it and get 1000+ tickets a day at a MINIMUM of $128. You do the math. It's not hard to see why the govt is pushing these "Road Safety Cameras" They make billions of dollars out of these things.

If they were serious about them not being for revenue and only for road safety they would put fixed cameras in black spots and put a big sign up saying "SPEED CAMERA HERE" Everyone slows down through the black spot, problem solved. Mobile cameras should be overt rather than covert. Anyone who then gets caught deserves the ticket for their stupidity. Independant studies have questioned the effectiveness of cameras as a road toll reduction strategy in their current format. I have emailed the Chief Commissioner regarding my theories as stated above and got a typical bull$h1t "your comments have been read and will be considered" reply.

The Police Department has no control over this. It is all governmental policy. You can and will be booked doing anythin over 4kph over the speed limit, yet vehicle manufacturers are allowed 10% tolerance in the accuracy of your speedo. That means that you can be driving your brand new car down the freeway thinking you are being very carful doing 99kph, got the cruise control set, and BANG, $128 bucks and one demerit point for being careful. No one should have to drive around at 5 kph under, just in case.

Anyway, got myself all worked up now, think I'll have a lie down. In case you could't tell, I hate the bluddy things.

[Wood Borer]

Thanks for the response Dan.

I know a few cops and their feelings are the same. It must be frustrating for many cops to police some laws especially when it seems to be just a money grab.

[silentC]

If they were serious about them not being for revenue and only for road safety they would put fixed cameras in black spots and put a big sign up saying "SPEED CAMERA HERE"
I don't know if this is the case throughout NSW but certainly all the fixed cameras down my way and the majority of the ones I have seen in and around Sydney are clearly signposted "Speed Camera 24 Hours. Fines in excess of $x". The signs start about 500m down the road and there's another every 100m or so. If you get caught by one of them you're an idiot or you don't care.

Having said that, I copped a 68 in a 60 zone in Sydney a few months ago. There's a section of the Princes Highway near Kogarah where it goes from 70 to 60 and back to 70. I missed the 60 because I turned onto it from a side street and just assumed it was 70. Wrong. :mad:

Let's face it, if the government really wanted to stop speeding, they would legislate for speed limiters on cars like they have in trucks.

[DaveInOz]

DaveInOz

Why do we need the 12" spike? Surely everyone reads enough newspaper clippings, sees news reports on the TV or knows somebody who has suffered the trauma much less watched a soapie that depicts it and thought..... :confused:

Jamie

People have become desensitised to the road toll, they are even desensitised to the grafic ads the TAC run, they should be making people sick, but they aren't.
The theory of the 12" spike is a constant reminder that your life is at stake if you don't concentrate and drive accordingly.



Daveinoz said, "Why are there more accidents on freeways? because they are boring and people stop concentrating"

Spot on IMO. Fatigue is a massive killer on major STRAIGHT roads. You nod off in town and you run up somones bum. You do it at 100 kph and someone dies. Another big cause IMO is inattention due to boredom.


So to stop this they LOWER the speed limit and make people more bored, :eek: how much attention do you pay to driving when you are forced to do 10km/h, or do you look around at the scenery?

[Ben from Vic.]

Rob (WB) said, "Fines can be quite unfair, the poorer person being affected by a $150 fine far more than a wealthier person"

I can't see what's fairer than everybody getting the same penalty for the same offence. Sure it hits the poorer people harder, but it's fair.


In Sweden or Norway (can't remember which) your fine is worked out according to your wage. This led to a Nokia executive being fined about $240,000 AUD!



If they were serious about them not being for revenue and only for road safety they would put fixed cameras in black spots

They used to only put cameras only in black spots, till some bright spark decided they'd be better off were they'd make more money.



Ben said, "I want a box that records when people spend excessive amounts of time bellow the speed limit and fines them"

Can't agree more. IMHO people who are well under the speed limit (15 - 20 kph not 5kph) are a greater danger on the road than the 6 or 7 k's over people who get fined by camera's.

That's what I ment. ;)


I'd also like to see some of the money go back to the Police themselves. They need it.
Have a look at the condition of some fo the police stations while your out and about, some of them are shocking. :(
(not you DanP ;) )

Ben.

[DaveInOz]

Have a look at the condition of some fo the police stations while your out and about, some of them are shocking. :(


Not to mention how cramped the back of the new brawler vans are :rolleyes:
on the other hand there is less room to roll and bump around when they take you the 'scenic' rout to the station.

[DanP]

In response to various repies made above:

WB, "It must be frustrating for many cops to police some laws especially when it seems to be just a money grab."

Don't be mistaken, police don't run the speed cameras they are run by public servants and positioning of the cameras is given to them to decide within a certain area. These people are IMO around the same level as parking inspectors. They come back to the police station bragging about the numbers they are getting. :mad: Most coppers hate them because it is giving the police a bad rep, when in fact we have nothing really to do with them. I personally will not book people doing less than 10kph over. This covers the 10% theory and I get my tickets to keep the boss happy.

Silent(?)C, "I don't know if this is the case throughout NSW but certainly all the fixed cameras down my way and the majority of the ones I have seen in and around Sydney are clearly signposted "Speed Camera 24 Hours...(snip)...Let's face it, if the government really wanted to stop speeding, they would legislate for speed limiters on cars like they have in trucks."

I know QLD and NSW advertise their camera locations. In one spot on the Hume there is a fixed camera in a relly bad black spot, put in several years ago. Since the camera has been in, not one fatality...Problem solved. Re limiters, they won't work, they don't with trucks and they won't stop someone doing 110 in a 40 zone. Don't laugh, I have booked someone for it, during school closing times.

Daveinoz, "People have become desensitised to the road toll, they are even desensitised to the grafic ads the TAC run, they should be making people sick, but they aren't."

I've got some pics that would do the trick. Makes me sick and I've seen the worst you could imagine and then some.

Ben, "I'd also like to see some of the money go back to the Police themselves. They need it."
Agreed, but it raised too many conflict of interest questions.

Dan

[PAH1]

Before they had speed camera's around here about 80% of Canberra drivers sped, generally in the range of 10-20kph. That has now dropped to 4% in the camera areas, you no longer are the slowest vehicle on the road doing the speed limit. Canberra roads are not patrolled and even school zones are only targeted when school goes back and there is a blitz. How much has it altered the death rate, very little, we have always had few fatalaties on the road and most of them are single vehicle early morning young male commodore drivers. Give me police out on patrol anytime, more effective, I have not seen a police car on patrol in canberra for so long it is not funny.

[johnmc]

DanP wrote:

Don't be mistaken, police don't run the speed cameras they are run by public servants and positioning of the cameras is given to them to decide within a certain area. These people are IMO around the same level as parking inspectors. They come back to the police station bragging about the numbers they are getting. :mad: Most coppers hate them because it is giving the police a bad rep, when in fact we have nothing really to do with them. I personally will not book people doing less than 10kph over. This covers the 10% theory and I get my tickets to keep the boss happy.

If the 10% theory was correctly applied you would adjust your tolerances according to the speed limit.

10 % of 100 km/h = 10 km/h, 10% of 60 km/h = 6km/h, 10% of 40 km/h = 4 km/h



DanP wrote:

I know QLD and NSW advertise their camera locations. In one spot on the Hume there is a fixed camera in a relly bad black spot, put in several years ago. Since the camera has been in, not one fatality...Problem solved. Re limiters, they won't work, they don't with trucks and they won't stop someone doing 110 in a 40 zone. Don't laugh, I have booked someone for it, during school closing times.

In QLD, I've not seen fixed speed cameras, so I don't know if they signpost their locations. However, with the mobile speed cameras mounted in vans and landcruisers they erect a sign next to the vehicle saying "Speed Camera In Use". Unfortunately you cannot read the sign until you are level with it - very sneaky.

[craigb]

Shhhhhhhhh, just whose side are you on? :D

That No 5 you had a play with was paid for not getting booked at the following places:

Maroondah Highway 1/4/04 10:43 AM

Hume Highway Goulburn 10/5/02 11:12 PM (Could have been a big fine if I was speeding a lot)

Main Drag of Rockhampton 2/9/01 8:01 PM (If there had been a breathalyser there and if I had been pulled over and blew over the limit the taxi fare back to Melbourne would have cost heaps so a No5 is cheap in anyone's language)

All my planes have been paid for in this manner and just look at how much I have saved.
:confused

Mate now you've explained it, it works for me and it OBVIOUSLY works for you. :D

I'm gunna have to try it out on my missus :D :D

Cheers
Craig

[DanP]

John,

I didn't say that I give them 10%. I said I give 10kph. Across the board.

I don't know about fixed camera's in QLD either. But I have seen the big Ford Transit Bus parked on the side of the road with "ROAD SAFETY CAMERA" written all over it in big letters. If that's sneaky to you, you're cactus if you come to Vic. All the warning you get here is a car parked on the side of the road.

Dan

[Ben from Vic.]

All the warning you get here is a car parked on the side of the road.

Dan

Yep, this is what keeps me alert. ;)

Always keep the eyes open for sus' cars parked in odd spots. :D


Not that I need to, mind :eek: :eek:

[DanP]

It doesn't take long to get used to them and be able to pick them. It took me about six months. In that time I got six fines, all for less than 7 kph and all in 100 or 110 zones.

Dan

[johnmc]

Dan,

fair enough on the 10 kph thing.

Yes, the van/4wd generally does have "ROAD SAFETY CAMERA" written in big letters, but generally down the sides of the vehicle. However, they set up the van so that it is facing the traffice and you only know its definitely a speed camera vehicle once you're level.

Next time I drive in Vic I shall be extra cautious.

John

[DanP]

John,

They don't even put the flash out the front most of the time now. So you don't even know when you've had your pic taken. Just a fine in the mail four weeks later. Not much use in my opinion, as you don't slow down at the time. What use is a Road "Safety" Camera if you don't know your pic has been taken and you continue to speed and you get 100 metres down the road and crash and kill someone. The camera has then served its only (true) purpose which is to raise revenue. I'm sick to death of governments hiding behind the road toll.:mad:

Dan

[craigb]

This is a bit off topic, but I thought I'd post it anyway.

It just seems really unfair to me.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200411/s1242265.htm

[barnsey]

If I'm using a router bit of 2 1/4" dia at 24,000 revs, you'd all say I was an idiot. :mad:

Why is it that you would condone me of doing 65 in a 60 zone and killing your kid because I couldn't stop in time, I was within 10% of the speed limit :mad: :mad:

Which one of you makes any project to a plus or minus tolerance of 10% or even 3%???? :confused:

Doesn't matter what you talk about, near enough is not good enough - especially when you talk about projecting a missile at speeds that are not recommended as safe, on a router, on a circular saw, in an automobile.

In any event you might get away with it some of the time, when you get caught you need to wear the end of the finger you've lost, injury or fine :mad: :mad: :eek: :D

Geezz I seem to be finding a lot of these soap boxes lately :eek: :D

Jamie

[nic]

Why is it that you would condone me of doing 65 in a 60 zone and killing your kid because I couldn't stop in time, I was within 10% of the speed limit :mad: :mad:


But speed is only a small part of the problem. I would feel much safer seeing people drive faster but with 100% concetration on the raod than some school mum driving at 40 while on the phone and smoking.

It's like those horrible ads, with the guy hitting the little boy on his bike. He is accused of been a criminal because he was 5K over, but the fool was not LOOKING at the ROAD, if he was driving at 30Km/hr he would have hit the kid exactly the same way.

This speed kills is crap, it's like saying guns kill, no it's stupid drivers kill.

nic

[barnsey]

If concentration is the answer - why does anyone speed? There can't be that many incapable of speeding and knowing the potential consequences?? :confused:

AHHHH I get it the world is full of ignorant people who can't grasp the concept :D

PLeeeazee :mad:

Go through red lights, park illegally, speed, have unprotected sex, operate your wood working machines beyond their recommended capacity and find someone to blame it on - think I've got the picture now - haven't I ???? :confused: :confused: :rolleyes:

[DaveInOz]

This speed kills is crap, it's like saying guns kill, no it's stupid drivers kill.


Actually stupid people cause collisions, speed becomes the factor of how much damage they do. The logic goes that if you were going slower then the damage would be less, therefor speed kills.

The speed limit is to slow everyone down to a speed where the worst driver can not do too much damage. I believe, practical or not, that the answer is not to drop the speed limit but to raise the driving standard.

That said the law is the law.
If the lotto is a tax on people who can't do maths, then speeding fines must be a tax on the impatient or stupid.

[nic]

If concentration is the answer - why does anyone speed?

????? You lost me there

Sometimes 40Km/hr is too fast, sometimes 100Km/hr on a freeway is joke.
What I'm trying to say here is that if people were more concentrated on the road and what is around them, there would be less accidents.
Maybe you ride a bike (push or motor) I don't know, but in the few years I've been riding, you get a good grasp on how hopeless some people are on the road, mainly because they are too busy doing other stuff in their cars other than driving, and I've seen a few odd ones from sex to drinking (not water).
Tell me how limiting them to anyspeed is going to change a thing ?

nic

[jackiew]

was once involved in a road traffic accident where a driver pulled out of a side turning straight into the path of a queue of motorcycles. Roads were wet, it was mid winter, we weren't speeding. There was a clear view of us approaching - we were in staggered formation so would have presented a reasonably broad spread to anyone who had actually looked.

I was lead motorcyclist and somehow ( to this day I don't know how ) got round the front of the car ( on the wrong side of the road avoiding the ditch). Second motorcyclist hit the car amidships as the driver panicked and basically blocked the road ( I accept the argument that he could have been a bit further back ). his pillion went flying through the air over the top of the car - broken ribs etc and a nice stay in hospital.

For me the interesting thing was that no-one wanted our statements ( I wrote mine out and sent it into the police station anyway ). The driver ( who coincidentally turned out to be a wealthy and respectable member of the local community) wasn't breathalysed - despite it being after lunch on a sunday afternoon.

If the driver gone up to the pillion rider in the street and rammed her at speed with a supermarket trolley she'd have quite rightly been prosecuted for assault. Attack someone with a car and it gets treated totally differently. Why? Am I missing something here?

My pet hate is people who drive holding their phone. I have to wait at a major junction four times a day as a pedestrian and I watch people trying to navigate a corner in the wet with their phone up against their ear. I don't know about you guys but I can hardly walk down the street and hold a phone conversation - all of a sudden you realise you just crossed a side road without looking properly. If we get a dob in a driver on the phone hot-line I'm going to have it on speed-dial for my walks to work.

[Sturdee]

Next time I drive in Vic I shall be extra cautious.

John

John,

Be especially weary of cars parked on the nature strip with the rear jacked up and without the back tyre. :eek:

Saw one the other day and as someone was sitting in the car I stopped to see if they needed help. Trouble was he did not need help instead it was a speed camera operator who was annoyed that my car stopped him taking pictures. :mad:


Peter.

[johnmc]

John,

Be especially weary of cars parked on the nature strip with the rear jacked up and without the back tyre. :eek:

Saw one the other day and as someone was sitting in the car I stopped to see if they needed help. Trouble was he did not need help instead it was a speed camera operator who was annoyed that my car stopped him taking pictures. :mad:


Peter.
Classic - I guess he was counting on the fact that very few people stop to help these days. Good on you for stopping - you should've called the RACV to report a breakdown. That would've really p***ed him off.

[LineLefty]

I think it's about time I gave my two bobs worth here. I work for a Transport Research company and we have a fair bit of capability in road safety issues. I've also been a public servant previously and I don't appreciate the PS bashing!

1) :mad: :mad: Stop thinking that it's only idiots that have accidents. Idiocy is not a fixed state. Today, hes the idiot, tomorrow YOU won't be paying attention. To all those who think that only other people lose concentration on the roads, you're heading for an accident.

2) The idea that governments use speed cameras to collect revenue is a moot point. The speed limits are set, so follow them! It's cheaper to enforce them with cameras than with trained cops on patrol.

3) The amount of government bashing in this country appalls me. They do not raise revenue for their own purposes, every cent goes back into the community!!!!

4) Speed cameras raise millions and millions of dollars, roads cost billions. Every cent from camera revenue would not pay for a resurface of a parramatta road. So forget that argument

5) Back to the original thread. Tracking speeders. Currently underway is the Intelligent Access Project where all oversize and hazardous trucks will be GPS tracked to ensure that they stick to their assigned routes, time windows and speeds. The amount of fannying around our company has done to design this system makes GPS tracking of convicted speeders unworkable. Not from a technology point of view but from a privacy and administrative point of view.

6) If you're stil lreading well done!

To conclude Stop bashing the cops and the government, from my experience the public servants working in the police depts, offices of road safety and transport departments have the community's best interests at heart. They are the people who deal with this, not politicians. Forget the politicians, the mean nothing in the context of road safety.

PS Insert witty comment here to mitigate the venom unleashed above.

[Fat Pat]

Fart Tax??? I'n need to work 135 hours a week to pay for my taxes!


Speed DOES NOT kill. INAPPROPRIATE speed MAY kill....Game Over!

[Peter R]

I still think that everyone is entitled to an opinion regardless of the nasty comments.

There were some good ideas but it looks as though most people think that it is not their responsibility to obey the speed laws, rather it is up to the authorities to catch them. This, of course, is the general attitude of today, do not take responsibility for your actions and where ever possible blame someone else for the actions that get you into trouble.
To answer one question: the boxes could be speed calibrated by a remote signal, a device that would be similar to the camera costs. I don't know. As far as knowing who was in the vehicle at the time of the offence the same applies to speed cameras where the car is photogaraphed and one would be stupid to borrow a car from a repeat offender with a black box fitted.
The suggestion, in the first instance, was just to get a reaction and it did. I am not backing out of the concept for I feel that with the amount of repeat offenders that the present system is not working and if it stopped them it would be worth a try on other uncaught speedsters.
How much more 'Big Brotherish" is the idea to the manacles for home detainees that read their movements.
The boxes could default to 60k after exiting a specified speed area and if the remote calibraters were not as overt as speed cameras the onus, and guesswork, would be on the driver to know if they are in a speed monitored area, then it would be simpler and less expensive to stay within the limits just in case.
It is trite to say if you don't want to be booked, don't speed, but it is true. The same applies to drink driving. In my opinion a drunk that kills someone is a murderer the same as a drunk that shoots someone, and the responsibility stays with the perpetrator.
I have seen a speed camera set up in Coffs Harbour with a cop sitting on a little canvas chair in the bush beside the highway on a down hill slope with the sign "Speed Camera" placed about 50m past the cop - it should have read "Gotcha!". Now if we behaved he would have made nothing on the day, but I reckon he got a motza.
If you speed and get to work or your appointment on time without being pinged it is good luck - If you speed and kill or injure someone it ain't so lucky.
If someone can come up with stopping the criminal use of a motor vehicle, and think about what is criminal use, I reckon he should recieve the highest acolades of the country.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon12.gif
Peter Rhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon8.gif.http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif

[craigb]

. They do not raise revenue for their own purposes, every cent goes back into the community!!!!



Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

Bollocks!

[ozwinner]

I've also been a public servant previously .
Nah..... really....would never have guessed.

Al :D

[Ben from Vic.]

I guess I need to clarify my position here.

I'm not for wholsale lead foot driving or open slather on speeding, and I agree %100 percent with the lowering of residential speed limit to 50 kph. It doesn't add hardly any time to the journey and it slows people down in an area were we are most likely to need to stop quickly.

But in my view the system isn't really fair.....

To say that someone who's caught doing 60 in a 50 zone is as dangerous as someone caught doing 120 in a 110 zone (on a road designed specificaly for high speeds, and a car designed for (at least) twice that speed) is crazy.

I also believe speed limits on roads change to much. Nowdays it's far to easy for the powers that be to change limits willie nillie, with the resulting constantly changing (even variable) limits confusing and difficult to adhear to. They don't even follow their own guidlines when choosing the speed limit (ie. brown roads 50, orange roads 60, etc), and the old Australian Design Rule 60, 80, 100 systemwent by the board ages ago.

Throw in the unique system of speed cameras we have here in Vic. and it's hard not to look at the whole system as a joke.


That said, if you look back at one of my previous posts, you'll note that I had this to say....

"I've only had one speeding fine, about 4 years ago, and I was caught fair and square by a real person."

If I'm caught doing anything by a real Police officer then I have no problem.
I respect the Police and the job that they do. I consider them overworked, underpaid and largly disrespected (I think you'll find most of the thread participants believe the same, and arn't having a shoot at the cops in any way. They don't even run the cameras anymore).

I'm not having a shot at your or your company Lefty, but speed cameras in Vic. stopped being about road safety a long time ago, and to believe otherwise is foolish. You just have to look at the way they run things down here to see that.


I love driving and don't mind having a bit of a squirt.
But I don't do it in the burbs, and have found a few twisty country roads that are perfact for this (and still limited to 100, so I'm not breaking the law), and I'd hate to have that taken away because to many people blindly followed popular (and usualy ill infomed) opinion.


I also believe that people get their licenses to easliy, and we have a dangerous culture were everone "needs" and gets a license.
There are some things I'm not good at, never will be. Art for example.
It's the same with driving, some people should never be allowed to get a license, there never going to be safe on the roads. But that's a whole nother argument.


Lefty, if you have conclusive, thorough figures that prove that the majority of accidents are directly caused by speeding, I'll admit I was wrong, and back out of this thread humbly.



Ben, bracing for impact :o

[zymurgy]

From here (http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irre0.html)

"Speed limits are intended to inform drivers of the maximum reasonable and safe travel speed. However, there is little agreement on what constitutes a safe speed. In a nationwide survey of current speed zoning practices, all states and most of the 44 localities reported using the 85th-percentile speed as the basic factor in setting speed limits. However, the posted speed is often set up to 10 mph lower than the prevailing speed based on a subjective consideration of other factors such as road-side development. The relative subjectivity of the speed zoning process points to the need to re-examine the criteria and procedures used in setting speed limits.

Properly established speed limits foster voluntary compliance and separate the occasional high-risk driver from the vast majority of drivers. On the other hand, speed limits which are set artificially low tend to be ignored and misallocate resources, apprehending and prosecuting motorists driving at safe speeds. Over time this could lead to a loss of respect for all speed limits and create the impression that traffic law enforcement and the judicial system are unfair. The same public when emotionally aroused demand and often get reduced speed limits by believing the lower limit will slow down traffic and reduce accidents."

[vsquizz]

Sorry to burst some bubbles here but there are already motor vehicles sold in Australia with "black box" recorders in them. Its a huge issue in the States, at least for the lawyers. At present it only records the last 30 seconds or so before an accident. However the legal beagles are going berserk because of the big brother thing. In the likes of BMW the recorder in conjunction with the GPS navigation system will clearly and accuratley record evidence of speeding. There are moves in Australia to make these recorders mandatory. The police support this for forensic analysis of accidents but you can see where it will end.

As I said, there are already vehicles sold in Australia like this. If people could learn to be responsible behind the wheel we wouldn't need crap like this.

Better get some spare spark plugs Al and keep the Ute.

Cheers

[mixo]

What drives me nuts in this country is the apathy we have.I was in cyprus a few months back and they where going to introduce them there, but everyone was complaining for the person rights and privacy.And you know why they didnt put them in, because the pollies over there where to afraid they where going to get a bill for speeding when they where with there mistress....

The next thet gets me is the RACV. what a bunch of gutless wonders.They always agree with what the goverment says.Who pays memberships to them, the car motarist of the goverment?. I have never seen them bag the cameras.

Next is the police.What a bunch of pussies they are.We all know the cameras are manned by privateers.But the police tell them where to place them.They have lost all my support that i might have had for them.I can see the strings pulled by the goverment , they are just puppets.IF public opinion has changed about them they deserve it.

Another difference between us and the europeans.Generally they dont ping you unless you doing more than 20 k over in most countries. Here a copper will ping you doing 5 k's over.Same with parking inspectors over there, they will blow there whistle wait 1 minutes to see you coming have a few words with you and let you go.Here its which parking inspector can get to you car fast enought to make that extra commission...

Unless the goverment eases up and it does what it should have done, put these cameras in blackspots, not down hills, on nice straight peices of road, then maybe then the public will support them again.

And to all those doo gooders who say this stops hoons..I wonder how many real hoons are caught by cameras.its mainly mums and dads doing a few kays over...

phewwwww...got that off my chest....

mixo

[Peter R]

Al
What are you saying? We should do away with video cameras in banks, around shops and around vunerable places because it is BB watching you and you might get caught doing something that you shouldn't?
Are you saying that the police shouldn't collect crash scene evidence in case you are caught out with your mistress or whatever?
Are you saying that flight recorders, 'black boxes',shouldn't be in ariplanes in case it catches the pilot doing something wrong?
This thinking would stop people from having burgular alarms in their homes because we do not have the right to interfere with a person going about their daily business.
As I said, if people could be trusted to do the right thing, THEN and only then would we need none of this crap. Until that happens we deserve to be treated like naughty children and kept watch on by Big Mother. And as the country fills with those that feel it is their right to conduct criminal activity on a large scale we can only hope that a closer watch will be kept.

Peter R.

[DavidG]

Please can we have speed cameras on every road, one Km apart.

Please can we have speed and red light cameras for all directions at every intersection.

Please can we have RBT patrols outside every Pub and Club.

Please can we get rid of the drivers who keep trying to kill me.

The only people against such a move would be the criminals who believe it is their right to endanger others.

[Zed]

you're all mad! nothing works ever! :mad:

Not the cops, the public service, politicians, public transport, road systems, the trucking industry etc ad-nauseum. :eek:

who gives a toss anyway ? get on with your lives and stop these feeble attempts to indoctrinate each other - unless one of you is a budding ghandi of course who will lead by passive resistance somehow.... :D

Next thing you'll be designing detector for Oz's fart tax!

[Zed]

Originally Posted by LineLefty
. They do not raise revenue for their own purposes, every cent goes back into the community!!!!

Ha x 2,000,000 !!!

except for the dollars they vote into thier own super and pay rises of course and thier own pet projects, etc...

who's living in fantasy land then eh ???? how would you like to buy a bridge Mate ??? got one for sale right here - all yours....

[craigb]

except for the dollars they vote into thier own super and pay rises of course and thier own pet projects, etc...



And the money they pay to "consultants" to tell them where to put the cameras, and the overseas "study" trips to find out where the speeding black spots are in St Tropez and the conferences they organise to tell each other what a great job they are doing for "the community".. and ...and ...

[DanP]

Next is the police.What a bunch of pussies they are.We all know the cameras are manned by privateers.But the police tell them where to place them.

If you are going to pass comment I suggest you read the previous posts carefully. If you have a good look at one of my first posts you will see that I said that the camera's are run privately and they are given a general area to operate in. THEY chose the exact location. For example, a camera operator is told, Burke Road, Kew. There is a fair bit of Burke Road, Kew to pick from.


Another difference between us and the europeans.Generally they dont ping you unless you doing more than 20 k over in most countries. Here a copper will ping you doing 5 k's over.

I have never met a police man, and I know a few, who will book anyone for doing less than 10km/h over. UNLESS, the driver is a pain in the backside and has a crap attitude. Does this tell you something.


They have lost all my support that i might have had for them.

I doubt there ever was any and even if there was, it's no great loss to lose the respect of a person who deserves none.


I can see the strings pulled by the goverment , they are just puppets.IF public opinion has changed about them they deserve it

In case you hadn't noticed, we are a Government Department. They make the laws and we enforce them. INCLUDING the use of speed cameras.

Public opinion has never been as strong for the police in Victoria as it is now. You live in the safest state in the country for one reason. Because of the hard work, guts and determination of those you call pussies.

Dan. (Biting my tongue) :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[glenn k]

How about the government prove that they arn't addicted to speed camera revenue and funnel the money from the fines back into improving the quality of our roads?



Ben.

I have heard that the money from speed cameras goes to a private company not the government. They just sell the rights to run the cameras. Has anyone ever seen speed camera money shown in government figures?

If this is correct which I believe it is what does a company think about profit or safty?

[Ben from Vic.]

Glenn K.

I got this off the Victorian Governments Arive Alive web site.
Click on the quote to get to the web site (look down the bottom of the page to find the quote).


"In the State Budget, the Government outlined that expected revenue from police fines would be $427.5 million in the 2003/04 financial year." (http://www.arrivealive.vic.gov.au/c_redL.html#1)


And a little something extra. ;)


"In Victoria, the road toll has been steadily climbing since 1999, something the Bracks government has swept under the rug, and been inept at fixing. However, the Vic Government raked in a massive speeding earner of $334 million in fiscal 2002-2003 against 2001-2002's $104 million. Much of that will come from those exceeding the speed limit by less than 15km/h. It's a pity the growth in revenue doesn't correspond to a reduction in death - Victoria's road toll for 2002 looks like being line-ball with the 396 lives lost there in 2001."



Ben.

[mixo]

I called the police force pussies in not the way they do their overall job, but in the way they keep the silence on this issue, always backing whatever the minister says.

Most of hitlers men where following(orders0 what their goverment said, you going to say everyone follows whatever the minister says????

All I saying there whould be some balance.There is none now.

mixo

[ozwinner]

You sure do have a way with words Mixo, are you going to try to upset every board member?

Your not Ken are you???

You probably need to meet people in person before you start putting them down for what they do, but I dont suppose face to face is you thing is it??

Al, friend of a cop or two. :mad:

[DavidG]

I will stand by what I said before.

The only people upset by speed cameras and radar are the very people who do not obey the law. :mad:

[ozwinner]

Public opinion has never been as strong for the police in Victoria as it is now. You live in the safest state in the country for one reason. Because of the hard work, guts and determination of those you call pussies.

Dan. (Biting my tongue) :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Dan next time we meet, Ill bring a saucer of milk for you. :D
Sorry, couldnt help it. :o

Al :D :D

[Sturdee]

I called the police force pussies in not the way they do their overall job, but in the way they keep the silence on this issue, always backing whatever the minister says.

Most of hitlers men where following(orders) what their goverment said, you going to say everyone follows whatever the minister says????

All I saying there whould be some balance.There is none now.

mixo

Mixo,

I was born during the Nazi occupation of Holland and my parents experienced personally the treatment of Hitlers police. One example was when a Gestapo officer was in our home and held a gun at my mothers head everytime the door bell rang because they were trying to catch her brother who was due to call in that afternoon.

Your efforts to compare that kind of attitude with the Victorian police not speaking out against the minister concerned shows a complete lack of knowledge as to what the Nazi's really were.

Now I don't personally know Dan, but his posts made perfect sense. If there is balance needed than the public, not the police, should make their voice heard. Only then will the government listen.


Peter.

[DanP]

The only people upset by speed cameras and radar are the very people who do not obey the law. :mad:

This is a fairly open statement. I can't say that I hate speed cameras, because, if utilised correctly they could be a sensible and great weapon to use against the road toll. It's the way they are used that I have a beef with.

Mixo. If you read papers or watch the news (unlikely) you would have seen not long ago that there was a story about the police in Melbourne speaking out against the way that speed cameras are used. It was at about the time that a study in Europe found that cameras have little or no effect on the road toll. The police who speak on the use of cameras in the media are Command, who are more or less directly employed by the Government. For them to speak out against the governments policies would be like you telling your boss to GF. Not good for your career prospects. (If you work that is)

Ben, regarding the "rising" Road Toll, I don't have the stats handy but I can get them. The road toll has remained steady for several years give or take twenty or so. I can recall a slogan from about 10 - 15 years ago, "Make war on 1084" That was the road toll back then. I think we have come a long way since then. No unnatural death is acceptable but there will always be deaths on the road, and not all will be someones fault. Sometimes people doing the right thing lose control of their car due to factors outside their control. If this happens on a Highway there will be serious accidents.

Al, Meow :rolleyes:

Glenn, the money goes straight into consolidated revenue, a slice taken by Civic Compliance, the company who runs the cameras. The rest is the Governments to use as it sees fit. In their defence, a lot of money is used by the TAC in anti road toll ads and other associated things.

Dan

[RETIRED]

And on Dans note, this thread is closed before verbal war sets in. :)