I just don't understand sometimes

[Peter R]

A few things confound me and this is no exception.
The National Parks and Wildlife Service (NSW) (NPWS) is an organisation that is supposed to manage the national parks, right? Bob Carr may not be a tree hugger himself but I believe that he genuflects in abeyence when he gets a go at traffic lights, thus he continues to lock up more an more areas for the sake of the green vote and gives less and less to the NPWS for their management costs.
Fire trails and fire breaks have been forgotten, gates locked, roads blocked with bulldozed woboys stopping any access by fire trucks, which creates the present policy that if the national park catches fire it is let burn if there is no danger to life or property. The NPWS goes along with this, but is it not against their mandate to protect the habitat, fauna and flora? How many animals are burnt or torn to pieces by dogs as they 'escape' into suburbia.
In this area, on the north coast of NSW, horses are running rampant in the national park, there are signs on the pathetic highway stating that wild horses roam onto the road. Is this a clear admittance that the national parks would be liable in the event of an accident? Maybe.
The method used by the NPWS in this case is to allow a contract musterer to muster the horses, with the suggestion, not contract, that he may sell the horses in leiu of payment. However, it is illegal to take the horses as they must be kept for fourteen days, fed and watered, at the expense of the musterer; and unsustainable agreement.
The NPWS consideres that it is managing the park ( on paper) the practicality of the exercise is not considered, nor does it seem to matter.
The horses will continue to roam and create serious danger to motorists and the habitat of the park because the men in grey and the politicians can not come up with a sensible solution.

Peter R.

[journeyman Mick]

Peter,
the sad fact of the matter is that the higher up the bureaucratic ladder you go the more like politicians its inhabitants become. To go places in any large government organisation people generally need to play politics, say the right things at the right times, keep their mouth shut on sensitive or unpopular issues etc etc. You obviously would not make a good upper echelon public servant because what your saying shows insight and broaches unpopular and difficult issues. The people up the top at NPWS got there because they're good administrators (maybe), good at playing Machiavellian games, good at covering their @rses when things go wrong, good at massaging the egos of their superiors etc etc etc. The people that are truly passionate about ecology or environmental management are out there opening their mouths at inopportune moments and spoiling their chances of promotion or trying to doing a hell of a lot of work with not a lot of money and consequently too busy to play politics. The other problem is that most of the staff nowadays come from academic backgrounds and couldn't recognise a practical solution if it bit them on the bum. I've had a few dealings with government environmental officers in regards to fire management and the lack of understanding, foresight and common sense was truly astounding.

Mick

[barnsey]

Come now Mick - aren't you being a bit harsh on the NPWS :rolleyes:

Trot down to the MissingLink and see real compassion, vision and intelligence at it's bureaucratic best. :D

SWMBO - the psychologist has first hand experience - pay nothing unless it is asked for, use every blind trick you can find to deny payment and when they get angry repeat the phrase "your not listening to me" until they give up and walk away in absolute desperation :mad: :mad:

I agree - these government departments wouldn't know s@#t from cold puddin :rolleyes:

Jamie

[journeyman Mick]

........Trot down to the MissingLink and see real compassion, vision and intelligence at it's bureaucratic best. :D .....Jamie
I had to laugh recently when it was revealed that a huge percentage (can't remember how much) of all complaints about Gov. depts. was about Centrelink. They had a PR person come out and say that it was actually an improvement on their past performance.
On a personal note, I went in to Centrelink on several occasions when my wife needed surgery for brain tumours and they kindly put me on the dole so I could look after her. I only needed to put forms in every 6 weeks or so. It wasn't until they were hassling me because I hadn't put a form in, because I couldn't leave her bedside that they informed me I could get a carer's pension. Now I don't expect the people behind the counter to be medical experts but I would've thought that caring for a brain tumour patient might have qualified someone for a pension straight off. :mad:

Mick

[barnsey]

There I believe the case rests :o :o ;)

[bitingmidge]

But....and I am not kidding...wish I were...haven't they just changed the names of Centrelink offices (again) to "Centres of Excellence" to fix all those problems?

P
:confused: :confused: :confused:

[barnsey]

"Centres of Excellence" :eek:

They couldn't organise a you know what in a knock shop for a blind man :eek: :mad: :eek:

OK OK I said I'd stop

Sorry all :p

[journeyman Mick]

"Centres of excellence", Surely you jest? Centres of ineptitude more like it, or rudeness, or inefficiency. :mad:

Mick

[Peter R]

Come now Mick - aren't you being a bit harsh on the NPWS :rolleyes:

Trot down to the MissingLink and see real compassion, vision and intelligence at it's bureaucratic best. :D
:rolleyes:

Jamie
Now you have done it!!

I was standing in line at Centrelink, waiting to submit a form that I had already prepared from a previous visit. As I waited I read a few of the posters on the walls whereupon I noticed one that said "If you need an interpreter please ask" I thought to myself, self, that is funny because it is written in English and if you could read the sign....etc.
when it was finally my turn I presented the form to a lass of ethnic origin who promptly said "No,NO, you must fill in form" and handed me the exact same form but not filled in of course.
I argued, and could not understand her or make myself understood so, frustrated I asked "Could I have an interpreter please".
Well! you could imagine, almost run out of the office on a pole or a Russian or something.
Woman next cubicle said, 'You come back when there is someone more suited to you...You could be had up for discrimination, you know". I didn't but my dander was up now, and when my dander gets up everyone ducks for cover. It hasn't been up for awhile, but that's another story.
"Bring me the manager" says I, my best danderish voice raised in indignation.
The up shot was the woman next cubicle accepted the form and sent me on my way, and as I left I pointed to a notice that said 'English Classes very Wednesday Night'.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon11.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon11.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon12.gif
Much fun http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon12.gif

Peter R

[bitingmidge]

"Centres of excellence", Surely you jest? Centres of ineptitude more like it, or rudeness, or inefficiency.

Mick

Jest???

Moi???


Monday, 26 July*, 2004* 08:21:32

HAMISH ROBERTSON: (snip).....Now the Minister in charge of Centrelink, Larry Anthony, is overhauling the agency's so called "debt servicing teams". From now on, they'll be renamed "centres of excellence".

And as the Minister told Alexandra Kirk, their job is to prevent debts, or if that's not possible, better manage them.

LARRY ANTHONY: Well, what's going to be happening in Centrelink is that we're going to be restructuring a lot of the functions particularly in debt recovery, from 13 areas to six – just to name one. And the basis is to improve the quality of service and also to make improvements in the quality of decision-making.

And I believe in the fullness of time, not only will Centrelink get greater accuracy, but also will be in a position for greater prevention for individuals getting into greater debt.

I'd give you the link but it's too depressing!!! Anyway that's probably one reason Lazza didn't get back in?

Cheers,

P (taxpayer)
:D :D :D

[journeyman Mick]

Now you have done it!!

I was standing in line at Centrelink, waiting to submit a form that I had already prepared from a previous visit. As I waited I read a few of the posters on the walls whereupon I noticed one that said "If you need an interpreter please ask" I thought to myself, self, that is funny because it is written in English and if you could read the sign....etc.
when it was finally my turn I presented the form to a lass of ethnic origin who promptly said "No,NO, you must fill in form" and handed me the exact same form but not filled in of course.
I argued, and could not understand her or make myself understood so, frustrated I asked "Could I have an interpreter please".
Well! you could imagine, almost run out of the office on a pole or a Russian or something.
Woman next cubicle said, 'You come back when there is someone more suited to you...You could be had up for discrimination, you know". I didn't but my dander was up now, and when my dander gets up everyone ducks for cover. It hasn't been up for awhile, but that's another story.
"Bring me the manager" says I, my best danderish voice raised in indignation.
The up shot was the woman next cubicle accepted the form and sent me on my way, and as I left I pointed to a notice that said 'English Classes very Wednesday Night'.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon11.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon11.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon12.gif
Much fun http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon12.gif

Peter R

Yes, well, that definitely sounds like a centre of excellence to me, excelling in "FAwlty Towers" style manic comedy.

Mick (who would be rolling in the aisles laughing at the inept comedy if it wasn't so damn serious when he goes in to Centrelink)

[jackiew]

The issue of employing people with poor English skills in public roles is an interesting one.

I worked in Germany for a bit and I know how frustrating it is when one isn't a total idiot but ones poor language skills make one appear to have an IQ in single figures. So I have every sympathy with someone who doesn't speak the native language well but needs a job.

That said I don't think it is fair on anyone to employ someone who doesn't have good communication skills in a role where those skills are essential.

It can be hard work talking to someone who has a strong unfamiliar accent ( for many people my London accent can be a problem :o ) but if they can at least understand you then the conversation will ultimately succeed ( worst case scenario is they write down what they are trying to say ). But where the person not only has a strong accent but they have a weak vocabulary ( or the conversation is taking place over the telephone ) then I don't think that they should be doing the job. No arguments.

Not only is it unfair on ones customers to employ someone with poor language skills in a customer facing role it is unfair on the person employed. I can vouch for the total misery of day after day of not knowing what people are saying in shops and in life outside work. I can't imagine what it would be like to get up every workday morning and know that you are going to spend 8 hours with people saying "pardon", "excuse me", "can you say that again", "what?" every time you open your mouth to talk.

[barnsey]

As I said earlier


There I believe the case rests :o :o ;)

And I was so saddened that Larry "I'm a country member" Anthony copped the chop and after he'd made that stirring address as quoted by Midge. Poor man :rolleyes:

Governmet Bureaucracies
Fair dinkum - can't we - no I guess we can't :( :(

Bring on the benevolent dictators :D :D

Jamie

[DavidG]

The biggest problem is cost cutting which results in the lowest paid (and least qualified) people being placed on the counters.

Please don't blame the poor person behind the counter as they have had very little training and are shoved in to a terrible stressful job with a wad (thick one at that) full of bureaucratic instructions to follow.

Lots of the instructions are contradictory, confusing, incomprehensible and regardless someone else will change what you say anyway.

Any volunteers to serve on the counter for a week at your local Centrelink office? Low pay, poor conditions, insults, abuse, fear, etc. can be all yours.

[jackiew]

uninformed front line staff seem to predominate at the ATO too. Phoning their help line is a total waste of time.

There seem to be two kinds of people manning the phone

1. the person knows nothing and admits it and suggests that you assume the worst on your tax return, ask for a private ruling and hope you get something back when they've made a decision.

2. the person knows nothing but confidently tells you complete rubbish rather than admit it. If you're lucky you find out they've given you incorrect information before you get audited rather than when you get audited.

[barnsey]

At the risk of being guilty of railroading Peter R's original post and turning this into a MissingLink discussion - I'll try and take it back to whence it came :o

My illustration using MissingLink was to merely point out that these bureacratic entities have lost sight of what it is that they should be concentrating on. :(

They all create these bombastic mission statements and guidelines created by mignons who are doing what they think they are told, those that tell them to really haven't got a clue so the whole object dissappears down a gurgler that floods the public with a whole heap of misguided policy, wasted money and a whole heap of "funded hangers on" who know that they don't know what they're trying to achieve. They use their funding to feather their own nests, politely yet often corruptly report results that the government department wants to see so they get more funding :mad: :mad: :mad:

Ok Ok I'm on a soapbox again - my apologies :o
I'm going to cook dinner and afterwards practice my dovetailing ;)

[Iain]

I had to submit my tax return on 1/11/04 as the online system refused to let me submit (Oh, a few people have said that, wonder if they followed up?).
Had miss 10 with me when I left the building and she noticed the ATO sign, a group of female ATO upstarts were passing us when MIss 10 asked what the 'T' stood for.
THIEVES, the glare from the party was priceless, and they didn't know who I was................I hope.

[RETIRED]

Vee know where you live. :D

[Peter R]

At the risk of being guilty of railroading Peter R's original post and turning this into a MissingLink discussion - I'll try and take it back to whence it came :o

;)
Railroad away folks. I don't mind in the least. The fact that I have opened a discussion makes me feel good.

I think that it is an essential part of harmony that one listen to other people's opinions and problems. It is not necessary to comment or offer advice as the listening shows that you care, and that can, sometimes, be enough.

I am a fairly solitary bloke, my choice so don't go Awww!. My social intercourse is limited to a few close friends, this forum and my little mate Cindy Lou whom, if I may, I will introduce to you all. Cindy is 8 months old and in the designer dog catagory would be called a Milky, a cross between a Silky and a Maltese. CIndy makes my life worthwhile.

I do not have any other type of intercourse these days as I was zapped for PC a couple of years ago - now you can go Awwww!
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon9.gif A long face

So railroad away.

Peter R.

[Peter R]

[QUOTE=jackiew]The issue of employing people with poor English skills in public roles is an interesting one.

I agree with you whole heartedly, and I can tell you that it is a darn sight worse when you have a hearing problem.
I have a better chance of understanding accents when I am face to face but on the phone it is often hopeless.
I have spoken to supervisors at various businesses and organisations trying to establish an ethic where in the event of a customer not being able to understand the operator that some polite method be allowed to ask for someone else.
(A lot of verticle pronouns) I have asked for someone else, being as polite as I could be and was put on hold for almost ten minutes. I could be wrong, but....

Peter R.

[rodm]

Having worked in a conservation agency for thirty plus years I might be able
to give some insight into what is being said.

For a start we are not a foreign breed that just do our job and don’t care. The majority of employees care as much and are just as passionate about our environment as any one else. The problems are that it cost big bucks to repair the damage, results aren't immediate and the solution will displease sectors in the community or conflict with industry.

Examples of this are

Controlled burning to reduce fuel levels. Science has shown that controlled burns significantly reduce the risk of wild fires thus protecting native plant and animals as well as towns and other human assets. Most of Australia has evolved with fire so the environment actually needs fire to stay species rich.

The Canberra fires are probably a good recent example of how wild fires can destroy a community. People quickly forget these lessons and criticise controlled burns for smoke levels and other reasons.


Salinity. Clear felling natural vegetation for farmland has caused a massive problem and some areas will never recover. Natural Wetlands and farms are being destroyed at an alarming rate and even if a solution is found it will be years before some areas recover if at all. A lot of the solutions offer only a temporary reprieve or just shift the problem downstream. When farmland no longer serves it purpose and the owners walk off then who is responsible for repairing the damage?


Forest Production. We all like to have timber to play with in the shed and to provide a roof over our heads. Can you imagine the uproar if current conservation policy was applied in the fifties or sixties to our native forests. Obviously it wasn’t and it was years after this period before it was recognised by the public that production should match new growth. Governments enjoyed the timber royalties and the public enjoyed the cheap resource so the voice from the conservation agency was ignored. Greenies saw it coming but were dismissed because they were generally untidy looking radicals and thus lacked credibility. It was not until it hit the general public in the face that the policy changed.


I could keep going on but the truth of the matter is if you want something changed then you have to make it happen. Winging to each other about public servants is not going to change anything.

We whinge about banks and service from business but it will not change unless we make it happen. If we refused to use bankcards for a month in protest of the fees and interest rates charged then banks would listen.

If we refused to shop at XYZ because they do not provide the service we expect then they would listen.

A government agency does have some influence but it does not have the power to change what the public perceive as being acceptable.

The public want more land vested as parks and reserves but the public do not want to pay extra taxes to care for the environment.

Think about the royalties gained from harvesting natural resources that are filtered through to our general revenue and not returned to the environment. The last major injection of environmental funds was from the partial sale of Telstra. Tasmania and Queensland benefited the most because of political reasons and not environmental priority.

Don’t look at the employees of conservation agencies as scape goats for the lack of action on environmental damage. The ranger or conservation officer you talk to is likely very passionate about the environment and just as frustrated as you about the state of some areas.

While I have defended the role of conservation agencies I do not condone poor performance of rude behaviour of public counter or other staff. Unfortunately they leave a lasting impression on government employees as a whole.

I have my flack jacket on so “Bring it On” :D

[barnsey]

Rod,

'Sallright mate you can take the flack jacket off on this one ;)

I support your consideration of the people behind the desks or in contact with the apathetic, self absorbed public. :o

My criticism is not directed there but at the directors of the organisations, whoever they might be, incidentally where does the buck stop??? :confused:

In general business circles we are drilled consistantly to be proactive not reactive. The only thing about government departmental direction is "will I stay in parliament". The only forward thinking that exists is as far away as the next election and then it is compromised by how much financial support will I get if I do it? :mad:

I agree that collectively we all need to stand up and demand those changes but frankly there are very few issues that have been publicly directed and been successful in the last 50 years and I expect that will get even worse while we reward our politicians the way we do :mad: :mad:

For God's sake, they are there for the service of the public, That's why it's called the "public service" :mad: :mad: :mad:

OK OK OK I'm on the soap box again
I just find it maddening that short term individual benefit outweighs that of our children and theirs. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Thanks Peter R for providing a thread for us to relieve the frustrations but I'm at a fair dinkum loss to how we have these rabbits running our country. Those pomms sure have a lot to answer for :D :D
Then again maybe we just need more foxes :D
Then we could revive the horses and hounds!! :D

So that's how they survived :rolleyes:

Jamie

[DaveInOz]

..... but at the directors of the organisations, whoever they might be, incidentally where does the buck stop??? :confused:


The buck stops with the public, where there is no clear direction everyone does what they feel like doing, so we have to provide direction. Apathy leads to the lowest standards, why? because most people will give you the minimum you will accept, the answer don't accept it.


I agree that collectively we all need to stand up and demand those changes but frankly there are very few issues that have been publicly directed and been successful in the last 50 years and I expect that will get even worse while we reward our politicians the way we do :mad: :mad:

Part of this problem is sensationalist news reporting, issues are exagerated, warped, miss represented in the name of rating and sales figures. Something else the public are accepting!
When is the last time you saw a current affairs show take an analytical look at a current news story?

What I'm saying is you don't have to accept what people / offices / departments are offering, become an activist, write letters, they carry far more weight than you realise, hell if it comes to it organise a protest / letter campaign / etc.
Power to the People :D

cue stiring martial theme music

[rodm]

OK OK OK I'm on the soap box again
I just find it maddening that short term individual benefit outweighs that of our children and theirs

I agree Jamie, it has been a very long time since we have seen politicians with vision or for that matter one that I would classify as a true statesperson.
As a baby boomer I believe we have a lot to be ashamed of in the legacy we leave to future generations.

As individuals we do have influence so as Dave says if something is sticking in your gullet then shoot an email off to your local member.

If they are smart they will realise a couple of letters of protest will likely mean other voters in the electorate feel the same way.

Don’t threaten them to do it or else but play the game and offer your support if they recognise the areas you want changed or improved. Termed as going to bed with a politician ;)

If they don’t come good then don’t vote for them in the next election and remind them after the poll why they didn’t get your vote. Termed as crying rape ;)

You might be surprised at the result and at least you have done all you can as an individual.

This is getting a bit heavy and self opinioned for a Woodworking Forum so my apologies (also for my poor attempt at humour) and I promise to stop commenting hitherto and forthwith :o

[Peter R]

[
I have my flack jacket on so “Bring it On” :D[/QUOTE]

Seriously brilliant stuff Rod, you know what you are talking about that's for sure.
The plea for respite for the beleagured Public Servant is ill timed with the recent and rather overt pay rises in NSW, especially for the rail chief, but I do agree that we vent our frustration at the front desk a bit too much.
Tell me, how can one ask politley for someone that is able to be understood?
Big Brother is more of a problem in regards to the discrimination laws, and to the right to freedom of speech than any other government law enforcement.
I did ask the question of understanding at Kooee (ISP) the other day and was met with a very nice and understanding response with the remark that this company was addressing the situation whilst allowing equal opportunity in the work place, so maybe the is hope for us deafies yet. Hearing aids are useless, they just make the tinitus scream louder.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif
Peter R.

[rodm]

Peter,

I wish I had an answer because I have partial hearing loss and experience difficulty in holding a conversation if there is background noise. SWMBO still reckons it is convenient hearing. :D

While nothing like tinitus I do understand where you are coming from. I avoid Pubs and the like because I get frustrated saying yes to every comment directed at me. At least I don't have to put up with constant ringing in the ears like you do.

Have you tried searching for an organisation that can offer suggestions or support?

[barnsey]

Rodm
Have had had a busy weekend so just read your message then and I accept your points wholeheartedly,
EXCEPT
"going to bed with a politician"

I just can't come to terms with the realisation that you want me to wake up next to "Little Johnny" or even worse Bronwyn Bishop or .. oh gooodddd .. Amanda Vanstone. :eek: :eek: :eek: I am going to have nightmares for the rest of my life :D :D :D

PS the local electorate was Larry "I'm a country member" Anthony's. I liked that result better ;)

[Peter R]

Peter,



Have you tried searching for an organisation that can offer suggestions or support?
Yes Rod, I have looked into methods of easing the hearing problem, and I have a set of hearing aids that are as good as I can get but they still make noises sound like I have my head in a 44 gallon drum and they increase the effects of tinitus. The audioligists know this but have no solution that I can afford.

My hearing was the result of industrial noise, hence the tinitus, which is, so I am told, the ears way of screaming in pain.

With the aids on I hear noises that I had long forgotten and the brain is running rampant trying to identify these 'new' noises. At the end of a couple of hours a headaches sets in and frustration takes over to the point where one has to take care to control one's temper.

But, there are many who suffer far worse complaints than I do, and I might add, this is the first time I have related my experiences in this matter. I hope that some others realise that they are not alone.

The funny side is the questions that I answer that are not asked but are what I have 'heard', and the handy side is being able to ignore someone that I don't wish to talk to anyway, and blame it on my hearing.
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Peter R.

[barnsey]

Peter R

My old man's hard of hearing but damned near blind. Because he is a war veteran he gets looked after pretty well. I say this after a few not so nice comments about MissingLink coz the DVA are a dream compared to ML :D

If anyone out there feels they might have a claim on DVA, do it, or ask your nearest RSL can they help. In my experience the RSL are extremely proficient to get whatever you're entitled to. Guess the numbers have some clout. ;)

[rodm]

I just can't come to terms with the realisation that you want me to wake up next to "Little Johnny" or even worse Bronwyn Bishop or .. oh gooodddd .. Amanda Vanstone. I am going to have nightmares for the rest of my life

Jamie,
It scares the heck out of me too. :o
I think the appropriate quote is "Just close you eyes and think of mother England" or something along those lines. :D

[Iain]

Rumour has it that the delectable Amanda used to be a baywatch girl.......until the silicon shifted :D

[barnsey]

Don't make the nightmares worse than they already are - PLEEEAZZZE :eek: