GST on Imports

[jimbur]

I notice there is talk about trying to levy GST on imports worth less than $1000 using the argument that it is bad for local business having to compete on unequal terms with overseas companies who sell on the internet.
Do Australian companies exporting send the goods GST free in the same way and, if so, is it levied by the overseas countries at their rate.
Are local businesses really suffering through the current GST policy on imports?
Any facts or thoughts?
Cheers,
Jim

[johnc]

GST is not charged on goods and services sent overseas, that includes overseas airfares. As for other countries tax regimes on imports that depends on that country.

There is an issue regarding those effectively operating online in Australia but based overseas using sites such as Ebay. These are operating at an advantage to a similar Australian based business and we all pay for this and shouldn't be.

As for the $1000 limit, I doubt eliminating that will make much difference, the cost of freight probably negates the gain, the real issue is the difference in base price which is often far greater than a 5% tarrif plus 10% GST. The cost of collecting such a tax on all people bringing in duty free from their trip or posting home would possibly be far greater than what they would collect, and much would still be missed unless we start opening all parcels as they arrive.

[snowyskiesau]

The perceived loss of sales to local retailers is purely due to the price saving by buying overseas. GST is not the issue - except perhaps for the government.
In most cases, even if we were forced to pay the GST on imported goods, we would come out well ahead.

If a local business is selling to an overseas buyer, then there is no GST payable. There may be a GST or VAT imposed by the buyers country but that is not the responsibility of the seller.

[Waldo]

It will happen no doubt, given we have a government who pander to the Left instead of getting on with real issues. :~

[johnc]

It will happen no doubt, given we have a government who pander to the Left instead of getting on with real issues. :~

Thats just showing your own political colours, the legislation was set in place by the blue team, and other than a few soothing noises there is absolutely no sign the red team intend changing anything. Lets not mistake casual words with anything resembling an intention to spring into action. :;

[Waldo]

Not quite, a look back at last nights Lateline Business will confirm that Labor are going to look into it.

Government considers GST on internet shopping - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/11/24/3074729.htm)

[Bob38S]

And all of this has come about because of poor old "Hardly Normal" who fears that someone else may be saving a $ and not buying from him at his inflated prices. The prices would have to be inflated as he buys from overseas at a better price than you or I could and he has to pay for those moronic, incessant, mind numbing, boring excuses for TV adverts. Let's face it, if he halved his advert budget the message would still get out [to those who may be slightly interested] and he could then afford to lower his prices so that he could compare more favourably with those buying in from overseas.

[Waldo]

if he halved his advert budget the message would still get out

Harvey keeps his advertising in-house and is the most desirable ad budgets in Australia, and every agency would love it if he outsourced it. His budget is the largest non-governemnt annual budget of $300,000,000 over Australia, Ireland, Slovenia, Singapore and Malaysia. $130,000,000 was the spend in Australia last year.

[silentC]

I wonder if he pays GST when he runs ads overseas? :)

[Bob38S]

Harvey keeps his advertising in-house and is the most desirable ad budgets in Australia, and every agency would love it if he outsourced it. His budget is the largest non-governemnt annual budget of $300,000,000 over Australia, Ireland, Slovenia, Singapore and Malaysia. $130,000,000 was the spend in Australia last year.

How nice it is to see that he spreads the wealth around.

However, if the adverts I have seen [when the mute or channel changing button are not quick enough] are an indicator of what this sort of money buys then I should feel sorry for him as he is being short changed. I wonder if he gets to write off his advert budget on his tax? :roll:

[jimbur]

However, if the adverts I have seen [when the mute or channel changing button are not quick enough] are an indicator of what this sort of money buys then I should feel sorry for him as he is being short changed. I wonder if he gets to write off his advert budget on his tax? :roll:
What frightens me is that there is a whole industry that does nothing else but think up that mind-numbing garbage and we are subsidising it to the extent of the tax deduction.
Cheers,
Jim

[bsrlee]

I'm with Bob38s.

Its just another 'have' trying to bash the 'wish they hads'.

Australian 'white goods' sellers are not affected in any meaningful fashion by sub-$1000 imports - how many people could really import a fridge or stove? OzPost won't handle anything more than 1 metre long.

Harvey Norman used to sell second rate products at a good price, they now sell third rate products at a considerable premium over Australian retail prices (e.g 1 Tb USB drive $149, sells elsewhere for $95) and the staff treat the customers like excrement. All Gerry and his ilk want is to make Australia into a 'company store' where you have no choice about where you shop & you have to pay inflated prices.

[TP1]

The issue of people buying goods overseas comes up from time to time and is a political, not a true economic issue. Australia suffers enough from the lack of proper competition and an attempt to restrict Internet buying is not warranted because as we know, the major retailers have not suffered at all, they just want to charge prices that are often the highest in the world. They can only do that without internet competition.

The rules for private importing were made under the previous government and the special interest groups failed to have things changed. They think that the Labor government may be persuaded to make things more difficult for Internet shoppers. They will dangle employment as an issue. It isn't of course because they only want to levy higher prices,

Let's hope they don't succeed.

[BobL]

Many years ago - ie well before the web - I ordered some "cheap" software on 5.25" floppies from Singapore. A week or so later I got a telephone call from the post office to come in an answer some question about a package that had arrived with my name on it. Terrified that someone had placed some white powder inside my package I went in where they asked me to open it which I did and all that was inside were a couple of dozen floppy discs. Several customs officials came to look at these strange items and ask me about them - one of them even held them up to the light and looked at them like they were film! They then asked me the value of the package which had no paperwork with it. Fortunately the company had sent me a receipt by snail mail so I went home to get it. I was then interviewed by a senior customs official who told me I was going to be charged duty on the floppies themselves - not the software because they had no schedule for software. Anyway it turned out that the amount was going to be $18.10c and as it was less than the point at which they started collecting ie $20 there would be no charge. All up I guess this took me 3 hours.

[acmegridley]

One of my last jobs before I retired was working for Hardly Normal I could tell you a few stories about their practices but legalities prevent it.Never purchased anything from them since.:((

[Mike Busby]

Hardly Normal can whistle all he likes about losing profits to people buying overseas and it won't do him any good. The amount purchased wouldn't be a high enough revenue raiser for the government to seriously consider taking it seriously. Just because NZ is trying to tax thier population into teh ground isn't a reason for us to do the same.

(When I am feeling very depressed I go to my local HN store and follow the computer sellers mumbling "liar, thief, numpty, scham merchant bull artist" etc until I feel better and scare off a few customers" - Hey it's a hobby. )

[Waldo]

Solomon Lieu :smack: just had a cry on Lateline Business, essentially he and others are calling for protectionism on the retail sector. Maybe I should petition the government for protectionism on the ad/design industry - somehow I think that would fall on deaf ears.

Success against competition is all about innovation and adding value on your product/service.

[johnc]

Interesting isn't it in the '70's and 80's as the Australian clothing manufacturers were hitting the wall one after the other under the weight of cheap overseas imports brought in by Lew and others there was silence from the retail industry as they reaped the profits. Now they are feeling the small sting of competition from the online industry they are seeking protection.

It is a problem for us if we kill retail because it is a large employer of unskilled and semi skilled labour just as manufacturing was. However any national discussion needs to look at this across all sectors not just the import reliant retailers. The words pot, kettle, black apply here.

[damian]

Yes it's funny isn't it. Gerry Harvey made his money undercutting the traditional department stores, now he's crying because online is killing his business.

The customs threshold was raised under howard because the administration of the previous threshold was costing money. Think about it, on a $1k item they can make at most $150, but to collect that they ahve to open many many packages most of which won't yield a return, then they have to collect the tax. The previous threshold was $250 or $400 or something, I can't remember. Imagine all that trouble for a lousy $37.

Most of HN's product line is too big to economically import privately, and more is 240V which brings other problems. Maybe he's losing accessory sales, but not fridges.

As has been pointed out the savings are in the order of 40% (or whatever) not 10% so all they will achieve is bad feeling next time you, me and them need a fridge.

[Gwhat]

Hi,

This isn't a beef, more an explanation.

Originally 5 or so years ago, you could import $250.00 (goods + freight) without doing a formal entry. Great convenient and logical. BTW Customs don't open every parcel, they rely on the integrety of the declaration most of the time.

When the threshold was lifted to $1000.00 it was logical with countries that we have a Free Trade Agreement with e.g. USA, provided the goods were made in the USA. But as many goods (particularly electronics) are manufactured in Asia and either direct imported or distributed through the US the government not only misses out on GST but Duty as well!!

From our perspective it isn't too bad until we get the 'phone call..... "My brother in law picked up an XYZ in the states when he was there, it doesn't work, you're the agent fix it please" OK we try to help but that's effort we could be putting into our customers.

Direct importing and distributing is expensive when done in volume (like us) all the add on costs are significant, Product Liability Insurance, Customs Brokerage, Bank Charges etc. etc.

Individual importers generally don't factor in all the costs, shipping, exchange rate and bank fees (the banks love it when you buy with a credit card from overseas). Also, what happens if there's an issue with the product???

Hardly Normal shouldn't be beefing too much as bulk (size) and voltage are good reasons not to buy their product lines overseas.

Again, my thoughts not a beef... well maybe just a little one.

Regards

Grahame

[Drillit]

HI jimbur,
Having noted other comments - it is easy to focus on the real issue. With the exchange rate as it is - we can buy goods at about 50% of the retail costs here and when you add postage the saving is about 30-40%. So can I suggest to some of our retailers that they think about their prices more realistically. People are price driven, irrespective of loyalty. Drillit.

[Big Shed]

Bill Shorten was on the ABC News tonight and emphatically stated that there would be no change to the GST regime for imports or that the limit would be lowered.

He repeated himself several times and stated that our local retailers would have to learn to compete with internet sales as they were a fact of life.

So it seems that issue has been laid to rest and Mr Harvey will have to live with that.

[Fuzzie]

I think the problem the retailers have is the Internet makes it easy to shop around. This is a game changing issue and it is not about GST. I know when I shop around however, I sometimes spend more on the petrol visiting stores than I save on the goods, but if you find it online the delta cost to shop around is much less.

The shelf price of things in HVN et al is usually not the lowest you can buy in Australia. Usually you can find a domestic retailer that will save you 20+% even though you are still paying GST and it comes from a local business.

And buying overseas isn't necessarily cheaper. Yesterday for instance I finally bought a Veritas honing guide form Carbatec for $79, (admittedly a sale price, but that is part of shopping around). The Lee Valley price is Can$64.50 and if you buy it in Canada you get charged GST of around 15%, depending on Province, which in the end works out to be about the same as my local buy price.

[jimbur]

The 'debate' seems to be heating up. I noticed last night an item on the ABC bewailing the problems it is causing to small businesses.
Jim

[Bob38S]

Myer and Hardly Normal came out last night saying that they are going to set up online "stores" in China and ship straight to the buyer.

[cultana]

Many years ago there was an article in one of the IT mags re Australian bricks and mortar business never fully appreciating the concept of online sales. The article suggested that they have a second class approach to the concept of net/online sales. The web sites were below par and hence not conducive to online buying. Much has not changes in this regard.

The cry of the high value of the Aust $ cf the US $ is trivial and just an excuse. When the parity was about AUS$1:0: $US0.60 it was in many cases still viable to say purchases reference books from Amazon than try to get them locally. Amazon was quicker in delivery as well.

As for small businesses, most are self destructive.
I ordered 3 grinding wheel from one of the local industrial suppliers. This order included me paying the transport costs. 5 weeks later still no grinding wheels even though Norton has plenty in stock of what I want. Yes I rang Norton to check before I made the order.
So don’t expect me to be sympathetic to small business as most fit the above scenario, especially when outside the big cities.

Perhaps there should be an inquiry on markup prices in Australia before these businesses start bleating too much.

[q9]

Before the internet, the yanks did mail order very, very well. They still do. I think the difference is that they set out to make that their business model from the outset, rather than trying to catch up later.

I remember back in snailmail days ordering something from the States, and being very surprised when the item arrived within 3 weeks. Various local vendors hinted at 6 months - maybe, if they could get it...

[jimbur]

Before the internet, the yanks did mail order very, very well. They still do. I think the difference is that they set out to make that their business model from the outset, rather than trying to catch up later.

I remember back in snailmail days ordering something from the States, and being very surprised when the item arrived within 3 weeks. Various local vendors hinted at 6 months - maybe, if they could get it...
Not just the yanks. I worked many, many years ago for a bookshop in the UK where the main volume of sales was to overseas customers. Turnround was usually the day the order arrived and that's going through a typing pool as well as the packing department.
Cheers,
Jim

[beeroll]

Before the internet, the yanks did mail order very, very well. They still do. I think the difference is that they set out to make that their business model from the outset, rather than trying to catch up later.

I remember back in snailmail days ordering something from the States, and being very surprised when the item arrived within 3 weeks. Various local vendors hinted at 6 months - maybe, if they could get it...

You will have the same experience today ordering from well set-up and well run US online businesses. They really do have it all over the bulk of the local retailers in terms of stock levels, shipping systems and customer service. Not to mention price.

Harvey Norman and Myer have had 15 years' warning that online retail was going to be a game-changer, and they've done basically stuff-all to prepare themselves. Gerry Harvey was known to be highly skeptical of the potential of online retail. Seems that skepticism is backfiring on him now.

When I consider the choice of dragging myself out through Sydney's horrendous weekend traffic to one or other retailer only to be told that the person I spoke to on the phone was wrong and that in fact they don't have stock of whatever it is I'm looking for, and that in any case it's three times as expensive as US retailers are selling it for, and that it will take months to come in; or sitting at home looking at products online, comparing user and expert reviews, and placing an order - well, there's no comparison, is there?

Why would anyone be surprised that Australian consumers are turning to US sites that are only too happy to ship their stock across the Pacific?

If Australian retailers genuinely can't get bulk stock into their stores for less than I can ordering individual items and paying individual shipping, then that is something that the government should look at.

But there is a big difference between "genuinely can't do it" and "have been too lazy/shortsighted to set themselves up to do it".

If you look at computer component retail, you will see that there are now a slew of Australian online sites that sell product, with local invoices, at prices almost indistinguishable from their US counterparts. They've managed to do it - other retailers need to start competing too.

The 240v argument might carry some weight - unless you took even the most cursory look at UK tool retailers.

Amazon and the like have been busy relaxing their shipping restrictions on tools and hardware, among other categories.

If I were an Australian retailer in that space, I'd be either getting very nervous, or I'd be employing some really good web developers and fulfillment specialists.

[jimbur]

We've been told ad nauseam by the same retailers that it's a new world out there and if we can't manufacture as cheaply as other countries it's just our hard luck. Get the same competition in the retail as in the wholesale sector and they don't like it. Most of us check the prices of items online before using local retailers. If it makes sense to buy from a local store whether for convenience, back-up (insert hollow laugh), knowledge of the product etc. then we do it.
Cheers,
Jim

[TP1]

HN worries may have come from the plan announced by Myer to set up an internet store for Australians in China. Time will tell how it will do but I think the real reason they are doing this is not about GST, it would be about not having to employ Australians at our wage rates.

While they will reduce costs by employing Chinese instead of Australians, I doubt that they will also take a cut in profits to be competitive.

[Avery]

I heard Gerry Harvey rabbiting on about this an ABC radio. He mentioned Amazon a number of times and his whole point seemed to be that local overheads were so much higher and he simply could no compete with Amazon.

It is interesting to not that a 16Gbyte Ipad , a fairly universal product, can be had for 529 US on Amazon (plus shipping etc.) and for 629 AUS at Harvey Norman.

For that difference, probably less than 50 bucks, I really cannot see too many people buying from Amazon, Then of course you have the problem that Amazon won't ship an Ipad to Australia.

I think Gerry Harvey has a totally different agenda, perhaps some sort of tax break for setting up an off shore online store.


What really pisses me off is when Australian distributors whack up the price of products beyond reason. I want to buy a Milescraft router pantograph. Made in China for a USA company, sells in the USA for 40 -50 bucks US. I can get it landed here for less that 70 AUS. The local distributor in Perth wants $155 plus shipping. The shipping from Perth is almost as much as from the USA. I would be willing to pay , probably $110 inc. shipping to buy it locally but not the way over inflated price they are asking.

Gerry Harvey and his mates at Myer and Timbecon can get.......

[ian]

Regarding the "$1000 limit" on GST free imports.
It's not really a limit.
It costs the Government money to assess, collect and bank GST levied on imports.
At some point the amount of GST (and import duty where applicable) collected is less than the cost of collection so why spend tax dollars for nothing.
The "why bother collecting it" level is currently set at $100 -- which translates to $1000 in terms of actual goods
This could be changed up or down at the stroke of a Minister's pen

[q9]

The move to an online shop operating out of China is really about putting the orders as close to the supply of goods as possible. At the moment, HN imports goods in bulk as a wholesaler, then distributes those goods to the francishes. All this time the goods are waiting to be sold to the consumer. It takes cash out of the business and leaves them exposed when the dollar goes up.

This move will free unsold inventory, and basically mean that any goods shipped will be already paid for by a consumer. Quite a good business model, albeit about 5-10 years behind the times, so certainly not revolutionary...

and yes...I have bought stuff from the states in the last few years, and thanks to online ordering and PayPal, often shipment occurs next day...

[TP1]

Amazon sources much of its products from USA based importers and manufacturers. Gerry Harvey hopes that most Australians don't know this. He can compete on price but chooses not to because his franchise system demands too many middle men in the retail chain.

However, the Aussie profit margin also seems to be way over the top for most goods. For example, identical washing machines and fridges in Asia and the USA sell for less than half they do here. Its not freight cost that does it but it is the importers and retailers ability maximise prices in the absence of any alternatives.

Competition is the only way we we see prices approaching reasonable levels. This is starting to happen in the flat screen TV market which I think is due to a couple of factors

1. Importers such as Kogan and other retailers selling direct

2. The flat screen TV market is maturing and is relatively saturated with many homes already owning flat screen TVs. Prices have to drop if they want to entice consumers to trade up.

Its doubtful we will be lucky enough to see similar price drops in other market segments unless there is more open competition from overseas.

[johnc]

The dilema for Government is the impact on GST and income tax revenues. If Myer and HN do well they may well pick up some extra company tax but will not pick up tax on Hong Kong employees wages or GST under the current regime on most purchases (not to mention unemployment benefits to any Aussies laid off). If it really takes off the revenue will have to be made up somewhere so one way or another and that will be through the tax system somehow.

[Waldo]

Bill Shorten was on the ABC News tonight and emphatically stated that there would be no change to the GST regime for imports or that the limit would be lowered.

He repeated himself several times and stated that our local retailers would have to learn to compete with internet sales as they were a fact of life.

So it seems that issue has been laid to rest and Mr Harvey will have to live with that.

I saw that and was genuinely surprised and pleased. :2tsup: Call me pessimistic, but I think it might have a lot to do with a government on a minority and more to do with voter backlash.

But that aside, hopefully it is and will remain buried.

[jimbur]

But that aside, hopefully it is and will remain buried.
Let's hope so or we'll be paying twice - once for the GST on items of less than $1000 and again through the tax system for the money lost in collecting it.
Cheers,
Jim

[bsrlee]

I think Myer's scheme will come unstuck in a number of places. Firstly, Myer will be looking to charge you full retail less GST, plus freight - the end cost is lilkely to be quite high.

If they try to cut freight costs by importing in bulk, I'd expect Customs to hit the entire container load with a GST assesment as it is a single shipment from one supplier (Myer China) to a single customer (Myer Distribution Au.) not individual shipments.

If Myer also set up a Post Office in China for shipping, with every order separate, then it would not take much for Customs to make a declaration that the whole thing is an attempt to avoid tax by Myer (which it obviously is) and subpoena all relevant documents, hit Myer with a GST bill plus penalties.

[ian]

I think Myer's scheme will come unstuck in a number of places. Firstly, Myer will be looking to charge you full retail less GST, plus freight - the end cost is lilkely to be quite high.why do this?
full retail covers their stock holding and retailing costs in Australia plus their profit margin.
If something they sell here for $50 only costs $5 in China, why not sell it on-line for $20?
if shipping is $15, the customer who is paying a total of $35 still thinks they have saved $15 -- a bargain compared to Australian retail -- plus they have "saved" $5 in tax (GST)
Myer who might have cleared $5 in profit when selling the item in Australia (after overheads), has now made $15 in profit (300% profit in accountant's speak) -- the only loosers are Government revenue, Westfields who miss out on their "share" of Myer's turn-over and the reduced number of wharehouse and part-time sales jobs at Myer.

If they try to cut freight costs by importing in bulk, I'd expect Customs to hit the entire container load with a GST assesment as it is a single shipment from one supplier (Myer China) to a single customer (Myer Distribution Au.) not individual shipments.this is what happens now

If Myer also set up a Post Office in China for shipping, with every order separate, then it would not take much for Customs to make a declaration that the whole thing is an attempt to avoid tax by Myer (which it obviously is) and subpoena all relevant documents, hit Myer with a GST bill plus penalties.it's not Myer who is avoiding the tax it's the customer. When you buy something from Myer, you are liable for the GST, Myer just collects it on behalf of the Tax Office.
Similarly, if you sell something to Myer, you are liable to pay the GST on the supply, and if you can't prove you will -- i.e. you don't have an ABN -- Myer is obliged to withhold 10% of the payment.

I don't see how a Myer or Harvey Norman on-line store in China would be any different to any of the existing Hong Kong or US on-line retailers

[TP1]

I don't think Myer is looking to save GST or duty. 10% saving for most goods is hardly worth the effort of buying overseas.

Rather, they will be looking to cheaper Chinese warehousing and labour costs to make up the price difference. That is to say, they will save a ton of money by employing Chinese people instead of Australians.

The Customs and GST laws are quite complex and who has liability upon imports depends on which incoterms the contracts are expressed i. ie whether the contracts are FOB, DDS, etc

For example, an FOB (Free on Board) contract is what we normally sign up to when ordering goods from overseas. We pay freight on top of the price of the goods and bear the risk for the transportation ( for which we can insure or make claims against freight companies)

A DDP contract (delivered duty paid) is where the seller takes all the risk and pays for duty etc. But they will have to charge GST in Australia regardless of price.

I don't know what Myer are planning but I know enough about our Customs and Taxation authorities to know that if Myer plan on bringing in shipments of goods for thousands of individuals, they will take a very close look to see if they are indeed acting as an importer in their own right. In any event, a wholesale avoidance of GST and duty will almost certainly lead to legislative changes designed to tax the goods as if they were imported through the normal channels. This is what usually happens when a company decides to commercially exploit tax concessions designed for individual citizens.

[Big Shed]

I see we are now to have an "enquiry" in to internet sales, the usual cop-out for governments that won't (or can't) make a decision.

It was interesting to to see some of the figures being quoted by the previous ACCC enquiry. Apparently they found that only 3% of total internet sales came from the internet, and they estimated that 50-80% of that came from Aust based internet sites.

So all this kefuffle is about, at best, 1.5% of total retail sales not being subject to GST.

Makes a mockery of the statements by Mr Harvey.

There were a couple of people being interviewed (one from Choice) and both stated that the retail scene is changing rapidly and that the local retailers have been extremely tardy in recognising this.

In my experience, if I buy something from overseas the saving amounts to far more than the 10% GST. In fact I have just paid for an order for more than $US400 worth of tooling. If I had to pay the 10% GST on this on arrival I would still be way in front over the same items purchased at local tooling places. Some of the items in that order are about a third of the local price.

I now buy most of my books from overseas, again for a far bigger saving than the 10% GST, most are priced including postage to Oz and they get here in 7-10 days. I am not aware of any Oz bookseller that can, or will, compete with that.

I have never spoken to anyone that buys from overseas internet sites that does so because they save 10% GST, the postage alone would amount to more than that!

[lesmeyer]

I fully agree with Fred and others. If GST was the only difference, nobody would bother with overseas online purchases, unless the item cannot be obtained in OZ. When I purchase online the saving is usually in the order of 50 - 70 percent after shipping is included.
Regards
Les

[simso]

It wont change, its just to much effort on the governments behalf to levy it.

Example if you bring something in to australia through the postal service, the limit is 1000 aud including shipping before you start paying any duties or penalties,

So basically the government has already set a base line that below this amount (1000)its not worth there time, however private import companies like fedex etc the amount before it attracts duties is something like 250 dollars including shipping, so the government couldnt be bothered collecting on amounts up to 1000 but they will enforce any private company to do any on amounts above 250.

Typical government, hence why I said it wont change

[The_Fixer]

If this is all about avoiding the GST it just isn't worth the effort, Gerry. I'll just pop down to the local and have it in my hand today, thank you. 10% be damned. People do it because the cost difference justifies the action.

Watching a current affairs show about Gerry Harvey operating undercover recently shows him whingeing about his sales staff talking about dropping prices too soon in the deal. He has missed a very important point here. If you are not prepared to seduce your customers with price deals and fast, they will look elsewhere for someone who will. The sale would already be lost. I am one of these types of customers.

Then there is the lost opportunity of the upsell. Not as easy to do this over the net. How many of us have been to HN and bought - let's say a computer.

"Sir, you should really consider a Flexirent deal. Save your cash and rent." But it's 2x the price! "Your benefits outweigh the cost (runs through the 2000 point benefit checklist)....and your ABN will make it tax deductible (note this point). You should also consider extended warranty for $xx. Put that on the invoice and you get - to really protect yourself you should buy a $200 surge protector and upgrade the anti-virus, etc, etc.... We have already pre-approved your credit to cover all this."

So if you're not too switched on at the time, you have just bought a $2500 computer and committed yourself to spending nearly $6000 on the whole exercise. Not much price deals available on credit terms. But if you only had $2500 cash, you still have to commit to a finance deal to cover the rest.

A year later you're telling yourself what an idiot you were for being sucked into a BS deal, looking for the money for the next horrendous repayment installment.

I think this is where much of the profits come into this industry. Buying over the net simply doen't do this as there is no salesman to apply the pressure.

I have since learned never to shop at places like HN for big ticket items as it is usually cheaper elsewhere if you use your commonsense and you get the added bonus of no one pushing the bulls**t add ons. In short I don't trust myself anymore to even step in the door, just in case. I was one of those dills that got caught once. Incidentally, in my situation, my ABN did not get me any tax deductions for the deal at the end of the day.

[cultana]

Well its all back on again..
Online sales will kill jobs: retailers | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/online-sales-will-kill-jobs-retailers/story-fn59niix-1225981302010)

Perhaps if these retailers tried to give a bit of fast service it might help.

I seriously doubt the complaining retailers care one bit about GST for the government.

[robbygard]

Well its all back on again..
Online sales will kill jobs: retailers | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/online-sales-will-kill-jobs-retailers/story-fn59niix-1225981302010)

Perhaps if these retailers tried to give a bit of fast service it might help. .

i agree .. adding 10% to overseas prices isn't going to help that ...

it also isn't going to bring the price up to the overseas price plus postage and make their PRICES competitive ...

one wonders why they are interested in pursuing this at all





Well its all back on again..
I seriously doubt the complaining retailers care one bit about GST for the government.


particularly not when (as i think it said in that article) the cost of collecting the gst would be more than the gst collected



at the same time i might add that i buy a bit of stuff from both switzerland and america so have a vested interest in the situation not changing ... it would still be worht my while to do it but i would HATE having to fill out a NAT1 (a one page form for when you do go over $1000 which takes me about half a day to complete) for every overseas purchase

whilst not the only thing, the main thing i buy is sheet music which, if i go to the local music store, they are uninterested in getting, take heaps longer to get and price over twice as much more (on one quote five times as much) ... a fair bit of sheet music i can get in pdf or sometimes sibellius files which means they are on my computer in a few minutes


regards david

[robbygard]

the CD which the music shop reckoned htey couldn't source, which i ordered in norway, online; which was despatched from usa same day and arrived here three days later

the power of the internet

regards david

[Bob38S]

Well its all back on again..
Online sales will kill jobs: retailers | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/online-sales-will-kill-jobs-retailers/story-fn59niix-1225981302010)

Perhaps if these retailers tried to give a bit of fast service it might help.

I seriously doubt the complaining retailers care one bit about GST for the government.

They don't care about the G[rab] S[teal] T[ake] at all - in many cases it appears to be envy or bile.

"We can't stop it - we don't care to compete so, let's try and make it less attractive and harder for the consumers so that we will be seen as the easier option by those too lazy to jump through the hoops"

[.RC.]

i agree .. adding 10% to overseas prices isn't going to help that ...



It won't be just 10% and Jerry Harvey knows that...

It will be more like 50% to 100% as the tax office also bills the purchaser the cost to assess the GST on the imported goods...

I think the retailers can go get stuffed, it is not like the retail industry is an industry that is of major importance to the good of the country...

[snowyskiesau]

Some more ammunition against the dropping of the GST import threshold, this time from the Board of Taxation.
http://www.taxboard.gov.au/content/reviews_and_consultations/gst_to_cross_border_transactions/report/gst_cross_border_transactions_report.pdf

[Waldo]

The Executive Summary details simply the reasons of why it hopefully won't go any further, that "the collection of GST on cross-border transactions can be inefficient due to the difficulties associated with enforcing GST compliance on a non-resident outside Australia’s jurisdiction."

The other point that the slapped together Retail Coalition hasn't and won't address is summed up in the follwoing "Ruslan Kogan from the Kogan Company, a manufacturer and online retailer for technology products, says the ad campaign is misleading.

"These guys are deceiving the public - they are not talking about the real issues," he said.

"They are not talking about what's causing them to be uncompetitive and they're not willing to change the way they do things.

"If you look at a certain camera for instance, it costs $500 in Australia and $250 in the US. The reason for that isn't the 10 per cent GST.

"The reason for that is that the retailers in the US have negotiated much better prices from the distributors than the big retailers in Australia have.

"So a businessman looks at the commercial environment in the marketplace and tries to find ways to innovate for their customers in order to give them a better deal."

Retailers' online ad campaign 'sour grapes' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/01/04/3106340.htm?section=justin)

I think from the actions of the Retail Coalition and their ad campaign will see a negative action of people choosing to boycot the likes of Harvey Norman and others. As with every business in any industry, if you don't innovate then you won't survive.

[Master Splinter]

So in fairness to the small retailers of Australia, does that mean that many of these large retail chains are, in exchange, going to give up their very favourable rental agreements (including 'rent free' for key shopping centre tennants) with major shopping centers, or do they need to keep that advantage to be competitive locally?

[Blocklayer]

Now this is all out in the open, do you think it might put enough pressure on the bs to burst the housing price bubble? (ie rents)

[jimbur]

As Waldo says, the media don't seem to taking the big retailers claims very seriously.
Cheers,
Jim

[Sir Stinkalot]

I was watching this with interest yesterday via the online newspapers. At 9am they were talking up their story about how the retailers are up in arms about internet retailing and there should be 10% GST applied to level the field.

Over the course of the day the readers comments started to come in thick and fast. By the end of the day the story had changed to how the consumers felt that Australian retailers were having a lend of the customer offering poor service, poor choice, high prices, poor stock etc.

Today it is more about the public giving the big companies a kicking. Instead of helping the retailers, their campaign seems to have just given the customers a forum to vent their issues ...... so perhaps a backfire.

As for one of the major retailers with the bad ads and internal advertising department he should just sink into the background. All of his media work in the last 12 months makes him come across as a complete winger who is trying to cut down any competition who have come up with fresh ideas. Perhaps it was different when he was trying to break into the market.

[Bob38S]

Mindnight news - ABC last night - it now becomes a little clearer - stir up the water and the dangle the bait for what you really want.

".....the retailers are calling for GST to be applied to all internet transactions or have it removed from all retail sales....." - I can only presume they meant up to the current threshold of $1000.00.

Next we will be told that this will make them more competitive and reduce prices and create jobs. :o

[BobL]

.
.
.
"If you look at a certain camera for instance, it costs $500 in Australia and $250 in the US. The reason for that isn't the 10 per cent GST.

"The reason for that is that the retailers in the US have negotiated much better prices from the distributors than the big retailers in Australia have.
.
.


It's not just the retailer/distributor link, perhaps even bigger is the OS manufacturer/distributor link. The OS manufacturer knows that an AUS distributor will only need 10 units of product annually whereas the US distributor will need 150 units annually. Some US retailers can often buy a product cheaper from their distributor cheaper than what the AUS distributor can buy it from the OS manufacturer. It's even more skewed that this. The US is world consumer central and no large supplier can afford to be out of that market so deals are often cut for US distributor that are below the OS manufacturers cost. These losses are then recouped from prices paid by the distributors of smaller countries. This is unsustainable - fortunately eventually the US$ will be worthless so their prices will have to rise fast.

[jimbur]

Mindnight news - ABC last night - it now becomes a little clearer - stir up the water and the dangle the bait for what you really want.

".....the retailers are calling for GST to be applied to all internet transactions or have it removed from all retail sales....." - I can only presume they meant up to the current threshold of $1000.00.

Next we will be told that this will make them more competitive and reduce prices and create jobs. :o
And, if they get what they want can you imagine the complete GST equivalent being passed on to the consumer? I wonder if they have an excuse ready.
Cheers,
Jim

[cultana]

It's not just the retailer/distributor link, perhaps even bigger is the OS manufacturer/distributor link. The OS manufacturer knows that an AUS distributor will only need 10 units of product annually whereas the US distributor will need 150 units annually. Some US retailers can often buy a product cheaper from their distributor cheaper than what the AUS distributor can buy it from the OS manufacturer. It's even more skewed that this. The US is world consumer central and no large supplier can afford to be out of that market so deals are often cut for US distributor that are below the OS manufacturers cost. These losses are then recouped from prices paid by the distributors of smaller countries. This is unsustainable - fortunately eventually the US$ will be worthless so their prices will have to rise fast.

Yes to some degree.
The other problem we have here in OZ is the level of middlemen. Each has to take a their cut in the process so by the time it gets to us the sucker at the end we pay for all this.

When you order something via you local hardware store they don't always go direct to the manufacturer but through their warehouse system. All middlemen. This adds to the overall cost.

This whole GST thing is more about the retail stores trying to bring in a level of protectionism and little to do with anything else.
ebay: SIEG C2 Mini Metal Lathe $AU705 includes delivery
H&F : SIEG C2 Mini Metal Lathe $AU825 not including delivery
both prices with GST..
With the H&F lathe it would cost me about another $150 on top just for delivery. Go figure.

[artme]

I think this debate will heat up a little more now that thd, campaign has begun.

It would be interesting to see what proportion of internet sales take sales from the likes of whinging Gerry.

I know several people in trade jobs who buy from the internet because what they want simply can't be obtained here at anywhere near a reasonable price. one fellow I know was told a certin pulley would set him back "about $100 plus GST." Obtained for $9 on the internet and landed in 4 days!

There must be a pretty large slice of internet trade of this sort.

As for some of these big retailers, we need to look at ALdi.Now I reckon I can shop at aldi and with the money saved, buy half a tank of fuel much better than the miserable 4c/ltr. offered by Colesworths. Note: despite the increase in the cost of fuel, the discount has actually decreased in percentage terms.

Apparently Colesworths say they cannot compete with th Aldi business model! Maybe it's time for a model change!

[lightwood]

The proof of the pudding....
Decided to shout myself an iPod today because I was given a flash Bose iPod dock for Christmas that works fine with the phone, but there isn't enough storage on it for all my music. The kids tell me I need the 160gb one, so with $320.00 in my pocket, off I went today to get some sushi for lunch and a walk around to the hifi shops.

Dick Smith...OUT of STOCK, no worries, I'll just go around to JB....OUT of STOCK too....oh well, I'll just drop into the Good Guys around the corner from home...OUT of STOCK also.:~
Looks like I'll just have to buy it on the net...:doh:

Don't listen to those jerks, if they at least have the stock to sell, I would have bought it TODAY!

Regards,
Mr. Grumpy
aka Peter

[Bob38S]

And, if they get what they want can you imagine the complete GST equivalent being passed on to the consumer? ....
Cheers,
Jim

Yeah, right :rolleyes: and if anyone believes that then I have a question for them........

Are you interested in scrap metal or roadbase? :2tsup:

I know a mate who is selling this large bridge in Sydney for scrap and another who has the mining rights on this big rock in central Oz. Just PM me your bank details and I'll send you the details for my Nigerian bank account.

[jimbur]

Yeah, right :rolleyes: and if anyone believes that then I have a question for them........

Are you interested in scrap metal or roadbase? :2tsup:

I know a mate who is selling this large bridge in Sydney for scrap and another who has the mining rights on this big rock in central Oz. Just PM me your bank details and I'll send you the details for my Nigerian bank account.
PM on way, also in market for a musical venue.
Cheers,
Jim

[jimbur]

It seems that the kitchen has become too hot for Gerry. He's upset at the robust feedback he's been getting from consumers.
Cheers,
Jim

[acmegridley]

Yeah he might be missing a few bucks poor old bugger:D

[cultana]

one thing I have not quite worked out with this:
Do they want
a.) GST and import duty
or
b.) just GST?

Seems the latest excuse is rental costs for their overheads....

The odd bit is most have a very poor internet sales profile anyway.

[Gwhat]

Hi,

The purpose of the Free Trade Agreement (FTA) with the USA was so goods manufactured in either country could be traded Duty Free, GST would still be payable here in Oz. The risk when the agreement was drafted was that goods from dutiable countries would be shipped via the US and slip in as part of the FTA. The GST & duty free limit now applies to goods landed for less than $1000 AUD irrespective of their country of origin.

I can see both sides of this argument, we all like a bargain, which is probably the reason Harvey Norman is there instead of the corner electrical store, and Bunnings is there rather than the local hardware.

If we take this further, we're really asking the major retailers to act as the showroom for us to browse in, while we order off shore?? Retail space is expensive, local staff are expensive and can only be paid for from sales.

I'll bet HN has experienced (as we have) the story..... 'my brother was in the US and brought me back a XYZ, it doesn't work can you help me, you're the local agents for these'

My concern is; we used to have a manufacturing industry that gave our kids jobs, will we be saying one day 'we used to have retailers'?

The request is simple, an enquiry to review the impact of this on the local economy. Once the facts are known decisions can be made. Governments are crafty, if they miss out on income in one way, they'll get it another... perhaps an across the board hike in the GST rates.

I hope that this isn't seen as a whinge, but as a bit of background to what is a complex issue.

Regards

Grahame

[Big Shed]

Grahame, you make some valid points and I understand your perspective.

The real reason that people shop on the internet however is not to avoid GST, that is only a side benefit.

The real reasons that people shop on the internet are a combination of price, choice and convenience. When I buy tooling from the US, I buy tooling that is mainly made in China, just like I can buy here. Same quality, but at about 1/3 the cost. As I live in the country, delivery costs from Melbourne are almost as high as they are from the US, communication with the US supplier is invariably faster than it is with the local Melbourne supplier, choice from the US supplier is far superior to that offered by the local supplier and the US supplier is almost never out of stock. The local supplier is often out of stock with delivery times quoted, and usually not met, of 6-8 weeks.

Given all of the above is it any wonder that people choose to buy from overseas via the internet. My last shipment was just over $A400 worth, it would have cost me well in excess of $A1000 to buy from Melbourne, probably half ot the items would have been out of stock!

Local businesses have dropped the ball on internet shop fronts.
Try and do business with a well known business in Springvale or Dandenong via the internet or send an enquiry via email. You'll be turning to the US too.

Your business is a welcome exception, you have a very good shopfront on the internet (probably explains why my Incra LS25 was purchased here rather than from the US), you have obviously realised that without the internet your business would not have a long term future. The likes of Harvey Norman have not learned this lesson yet, and they are now running to government for thinly disguised protection.

[jimbur]

As Fred says, Grahame has some valid points. However, there is nothing altruistic in the current campaign.
To me retail should involve skilled, knowledgeable staff as well as a choice of products. The larger concerns are becoming more akin to warehouses and the knowledge often displayed is limited to finding a brochure produced by the manufacturer.
Cheers,
Jim

[beeroll]

I can see both sides of this argument, we all like a bargain, which is probably the reason Harvey Norman is there instead of the corner electrical store, and Bunnings is there rather than the local hardware.

Hi Grahame,

Reading the responses to this issue on various fora and newspaper comment sections, pricing is certainly part of the equation, but in many ways a bigger complaint is that there is a lack of service, range and interest on the part of Australian retailers.

As Big Shed points out, dealing with many Australian retailers is an exercise in frustration, with stock of common items often difficult to find, staff members reluctant to help, the level of product knowledge breathtakingly low, and order times long and frustrating.

Here's one example, a well-known equipment retailer had a sale in late October where the 12" Woodfast disc sander was on sale, and featured in their brochure. When I arrived at the store, there was no stock, and the lead time for new orders was put at 4-6 weeks. I placed an order, and called back after 4 weeks, only to be told that not only was the expected arrival time now "sometime in January", but my order had been summarily cancelled. I was given the generous option of being able to have one shipped from their Melbourne store, which had plenty of stock - as long as I paid the shipping, which put the item at over the regular retail price...

So now I have no disc sander, and from being neutral about this company, from whom I've never bought anything before, I'm hostile/contemptuous. More importantly, I've wasted a two hour drive out to a showroom and back, and half an hour on the phone conversation trying to figure out what happened to my order. All valuable time I could have spent doing what I love, and not what I hate.

My feeling from reading people's responses to this issue is that this experience is not atypical. It's not simply about prices. After all, consumers can't be that price sensitive, or places like Harvey Norman would no longer survive at all - other (Australian) retailers undercut their prices all the time. There are swags of online Aussie retailers selling, in particular, computer-related equipment, for close to "global" online prices, yet people continue to go to HN, Dick Smith, JB etc to buy those things.

I think if Australian retailers were anything like their good American counterparts - who are switched on, service and customer-oriented, progressive in both their sales channels and their product ranges, and willing to go the extra mile for you - there would be a lot less angst about price differentials, and anger at the attitude of big retailers. I would be happy to pay a little extra to be able to go to an Australian store, actually handle and see the products I'm thinking of buying, have an informed conversation with a staff member about whether I'm making the right choice, be able to see and handle the alternatives, and know that there is stock of each of them available.

(That being said, it often seems ludicrous that an individual should be able to order even large and heavy items from the USA, have them flown across the Pacific, and still have them arrive for half the price local retailers are offering - even once duties and GST have been factored in...)

People will often comment that the American market is cheaper because it's larger and retailers can buy in bulk etc. That is partly true, but what those low prices also reflect is that the US retail market is one of the world's most competitive - which means if you haven't got your act together, you simply will not survive. People forget that side of the coin when talking about American prices.

There is now a Productivity Commission review of the Australian retail industry scheduled - I will be interested to see its findings regarding the capacity of Australian retail to compete in a globalised market with all the above taken into account.

[robbygard]

Hi,

The purpose of the Free Trade Agreement (FTA) with the USA was so goods manufactured in either country could be traded Duty Free, GST would still be payable here in Oz. The risk when the agreement was drafted was that goods from dutiable countries would be shipped via the US and slip in as part of the FTA. The GST & duty free limit now applies to goods landed for less than $1000 AUD irrespective of their country of origin.

fair comment, although i think there were and are many bigger risks than that associated with the agreement



I can see both sides of this argument, we all like a bargain, which is probably the reason Harvey Norman is there instead of the corner electrical store, and Bunnings is there rather than the local hardware.

If we take this further, we're really asking the major retailers to act as the showroom for us to browse in, while we order off shore?? Retail space is expensive, local staff are expensive and can only be paid for from sales.

whilst YOU may see both sides, it certainly APPEARS that the bigger players are looking only at cost ... if you consider this thread, i think you will note that there are many observations and valid examples regarding poor service and whilst i acknowledge that price is also a consideration, i think it is superficial in the extreme to think that increasing the costs of these imports by 10% +$50 odd (as it currently stands) is actually going to make a difference to either service or price competitiveness ... (consider my two examples on page four of this discussion and the many others in the discussion) ... the big players seems to be ignoring this aspect or pretending that there is no other problem



I'll bet HN has experienced (as we have) the story..... 'my brother was in the US and brought me back a XYZ, it doesn't work can you help me, you're the local agents for these'

a very valid concern and unless (as is the case with some camera equipment) there is an international warranty on the product, i feel you would be justified in charging a service fee for this


My concern is; we used to have a manufacturing industry that gave our kids jobs, will we be saying one day 'we used to have retailers'?Grahame

this is also a valid concern and whilst i acknowledge that the retail industry has been, at least in part, responsible for the decline of manufacturing industries and also of squeezing the farmers, i don't subscribe to a view (as many others seem to) that they deserve what they get ... i think governments of both political persuasions have dealt with structural changes reasonably well, at least since 1982 ... i think that prior to that both were monumental failures


The request is simple, an enquiry to review the impact of this on the local economy. Once the facts are known decisions can be made. Governments are crafty, if they miss out on income in one way, they'll get it another... perhaps an across the board hike in the GST rates.

is that what their request is ... it doesn't seem that way to me ... there was already an enquiry mooted before they got involved ... it seems to me that they are trying to influence the outcome of the enquiry ... it also seems if they wish to limit terms of reference that way, we could all do without it ... by all means establish the quantum of the problem (anecdotally it appears that internet sales are only 2-3% ... i wonder whether that is true or whether the opponetns of the big fellows are doing their own disinformation) but surely we should also be looking for a wider voes by the productivity commission or from a government perspective it is an easy answer to do nothing ... small impact and increased costs to change (the $1000 was set, as i understand it, because it was cost more money than would be obtained to collect the gst on lesser amounts)




I hope that this isn't seen as a whinge, but as a bit of background to what is a complex issue.

Regards

Grahame


on the contrary i think it is good to get a bit more input like this .. it is very complex and much of the discussion that has been put forward seems either superficial or mis/disinformation


regards david

[cultana]

establish the quantum of the problem (anecdotally it appears that internet sales are only 2-3%

My apologies David for borrowing your comment but it does come to one of the main points of this argunment.
This value of internet sales 2 – 3%, what does it actually cover,
a.) total internet sales or
b.) total internet retail sales including all Australian and international sales not including ebay or
c.) total internet retail sales including all Australian and international sales and including ebay or
d.) just international internet sales?

Specific detail seems lost in the communication of the actual way this vale has been determined.

Now there would be some questions re Australian ebay i.e. sellers based in Australia and have ‘online stores’. Are these including GST in their pricing?
If these stores do so much trading one wonders why the government has not stepped in with the need for an ABN number and GST collection. Possibly worth looking at legally.

One thing that I do find somewhat odd with this rush re internet sales as little was being said even when the $AUS 1:$US 0.8 or less.

[Master Splinter]

This value of internet sales 2 – 3%, what does it actually cover,


8167.0 - Selected Characteristics of Australian Business, 2008-09 (http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/[email protected]/Lookup/8167.0Main+Features62008-09)

"Proportion of total income from sales of goods or services attributable to orders received via the Internet or web during the year ended 30 June 2009. "

[lesmeyer]

Just to follow on from the above. How would booking international holidays and flights while in another country be taxed? The idea of the banks collecting the tax was mooted at one stage. So how would they differentiate actual sales initiated from Aus vs say holidaying in another country as many businesses have obscure names on the credit card transaction? If the banks will not collect then we are back to agents collecting (Aus Post) and charging for this - hence the govt. saying it ends up costing more than the tax collected for purchases under $1000. I think the consensus is that the whole situation has more questions than answers at this stage and then there is of course the whole matter of the ordinary person wanting a Veeeery good deal. While a handful of businesses have adopted online trading in Aus, the others need to play catchup and do this fast. Oh, they also need to provide excellent service, knowlege of the products and maintain stock to actually sell the product - and lets not forget that most (not all) Aus online businesses deduct the funds from your credit card as soon as the order is placed. This is the most reprehensible act committed by these businesses. They should only deduct when the shipping takes place (equivalent to walking out with the goods).
These are just some of the reasons we purchase from LV, Rockler etc.
My tuppence worth from the wild west of OZ.
Les

[cultana]

8167.0 - Selected Characteristics of Australian Business, 2008-09 (http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/[email protected]/Lookup/8167.0Main+Features62008-09)

"Proportion of total income from sales of goods or services attributable to orders received via the Internet or web during the year ended 30 June 2009. "

All fine but that is Australian business stats...

This has little perspective with respect to the argument of internet sales internationally. Also the argument is about retail sales, specifically you me buying from overseas.

As it is International sales that GH et al are wining about it seems strange that there are no precise figures to back their arguments.
All internet transactions (ebay seems excluded or too complex in many cases), within Australia made by people/businesses within Australia to Australian based businesses carry GST so what is this all about?

Seems Gh et al are crying foul about other Australian businesses that have a successful internet business model and they don't.

Their argument lacks fact, and basic %'s mean little.

[corbs]

I think the retailers would have more support for an enquiry into the cost of them importing products for sale in Australia. I can understand a small increase in price over products from overseas but often the difference is far too attractive to pass by.

I don't understand how a local company purchasing in bulk at wholesale prices can't compete with me purchasing individual items online at the point of origin's retail prices. The point of origin often has to deal with the same factors as the local (wages, rent...)

As others have indicated, GST isn't a factor on my purchasing from O/S. It's a significant saving of money and convenience of having access to a wider range of products. I prefer to support local but if local isn't competitive then the choice is simple.

Corbs