I wonder if we can make this an election issue?

[Sebastiaan56]

Topless sunbather accused of sensuously rubbing in sun cream | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/topless-sunbather-accused-of-sensuously-rubbing-in-sun-cream/story-e6frfq80-1225904452174#ixzz0wPr6EjJY)

[Master Splinter]

Already is.

....ohhhh, election.....

Thought you wrote something else.

Sorry, never mind. At least one of the Pollies will get up.

[TheSnakeman]

Well here's one ...
The State Government and local council spent tens of thousands of dollars (our taxes) and threatening to jail myself if I dared shop down some dangerous fire hazard trees.
That was in 2000-2009.
Then a big fire came along on 7 Feb 2009 that killed about 172 Victorians similarly prohibited from protecting their properties and themselves and now the council and state government write to me and tell me, OK, you can chop the trees down (feral pine trees), provided you do it before end Aug 2010!
All the best
Snakeman Raymond Hoser (http://snakeman.com.au)

(http://www.snakebusters.com.au)

[TheSnakeman]

I probably don't have full support of people here, BUT, I'd love the independents likely to hold the balance of power in the new federal Government to insist on proportional representation in the house of reps to stop the stranglehold by the big two parties.
Proportional representation works well in Israel, and contrary to pupular belief here in Australia, major parties can and do govern well without absolute majorities.
ALL THE BEST
Snakeman Raymond Hoser (http://www.snakeman.com.au)

[Master Splinter]

I've got to say that ever since the referendum on ACT self-government was overturned (a 65% victory to the "No thanks, we don't want self-government" vote and then the first ACT government had 4 out of 17 seats won by 'no self government' party members) I've been disillusioned with the whole political thing, so I don't bother with it these days.

The actions of both major federal parties over the last ten or so years have done nothing to re-illusion me, either.

[TheSnakeman]

Master Splinter, I think you echo the sentiments of most Aussies.
We know the process is corrupt and dishonest and are only a part of it because
we are forced to, under threat of being fined for voting.
I think the US system of "optional" voting has merit in that at least a vote becomes something worth chasing for the major parties.
Also this rort of taxpayer funding for major parties votes after each election is
another scam that should be stopped.
All the best
the snake man Raymond Hoser (http://www.snakeman.com.au)

[Frank&Earnest]

If you have seen my earlier posts on this topic you already know what I think, but this guy says it better than I did. ABC The Drum Unleashed - The missing party in Australian politics (http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2995022.htm)

[TheSnakeman]

Yes, I agree that the major parties are in many ways "dinosaurs", but to get the idea that they are somehow in decline is I think a wrong extrapolation, (if you make that judgement).
You see nature abhors a vacuum and the major parties will probably fill it, rather than letting a third force move in.
Over the decades a number of third forces have moved in to take votes from dissaffected major party voters.
We had the DLP, Australia party, then democrats, then one nation and now the greens.
Excluding One Nation, the rest were centreist "sanity' type parties, trying to break free from the old ideologies of the major parties.
However the entrenched power of the major parties and the media they control, reduces everything to a "two party preferred" basis, with the direct implication the others really don't matter.
Boredom sets in and the major parties claw back the votes of the centreist parties as they never actually exercise any real power and so voters desert them when they fail to live up to promises.
Having stood as a candidate in various elections (state and local), I can assure you that the whole process is rigged in favour of the major parties and the real system we have is anything but democratic.
By way of example, people have been claiming "Communism" is dead for a few years now, but it is really alive and well, even if the communists change their names and claim they are something else.
Fabians are now in power in Victoria (Hulls/Brumby and their ideologically driven judiciary, which will take decades to remove at best).
Chinese Communists are stronger than ever and looking at other countries, most seem to have entrenched "two party' systems.
Totalitarianism and dictatorship and part and parcel of daily life here in Australia in the same way as China and many a third would country ... we just pretend it's different here.
As I've said before, if there is any single thing the independents could seek and get it is a proportional representation system that would actually break the power hold of the two major parties.
All the best
Snakeman Raymond Hoser
Snakebusters
Reptile Shows (http://www.snakebusters.com.au)

[Frank&Earnest]

The fact that they can hang on and have great powers to stem their decline does not invalidate the reasons why they are or could be in decline. The power now enjoyed by the independents is a reflection of the desire by a growing part of the electorate to obtain proportionality notwithstanding the current fetters. The problem with proportional representation, however, is that any crackpot who can muster a sufficient number of protest votes gets a guernsey. This can be fixed by setting a sufficiently high threshold, say 5 or 10% of the national vote. Most European countries have safety mechanisms of this nature.

[Big Shed]

The maths doesn't work F&E, 10% of the national vote would be equivalent to 10% of the seats in parliament, ie 15 seats:rolleyes:

I do however very strongly agree that an electorate based system belongs in the 19th century, with the horse and cart, and preferably only in the UK.

In 21st century Australia, with modern communications and transport we need proportional representation, state based like the Senate system.

That way, a party with 10% of the vote will get closer to 10% of the seats, not just 1 (and that for the first time in history!)

It will also kill off the current union/big business duopoly.

[watson]

Apart from not worrying a lot about who does what.......its like death and taxes....they'll get you in the end, and both sides will become the "shafters" that governments always do.
But I wonder how much we all paid for this???

[Frank&Earnest]

The maths doesn't work F&E, 10% of the national vote would be equivalent to 10% of the seats in parliament, ie 15 seats:rolleyes:


.

That's exactly what I meant, my apology if I was too concise. I have a vague recollection of it being 5% in Germany and Italy (where a centre-right or centre-left coalition is the norm). You do not want a 10 party coalition on either side, do you? :)

[TheSnakeman]

frank&earnest, you wrote:
"The problem with proportional representation, however, is that any crackpot who can muster a sufficient number of protest votes gets a guernsey."
That is true, but it also seems to assume that there are no crackpots in the major parties, which is a thesis I strongly disagree with.
As it happens, even if 25% of the representatives in the house of parliament are crackpots, this should still leave the 75% majority with enough power to stop them doing anything, in the same way that the major parties pull their renegades into line.
My preference is that if 1% of the population want sex addicts in parliament, I say "why not?".
They surely couldn't be worse than some of what we have now.
Changing the subject slightly, another serious problem is that as governments come and go, the public service bureaucracy remains.
It's like "yes Minister" but worse.
And they are literally a law unto themselves.
They make the rules, break them as they see fit, change them as they see fit and have it all rubber stamped by (elected) ministers who are clueless as to details and just hope that the sh eee t does not hit the fan while they are on watch.
By way of example, in terms of my reptile show (http://www.snakebusters.com.au) business
I deal with the Department of Sustainability and Envirnoment in Victoria, whom most people would assume deal with sustainability and environment.
Well you are actually wrong.
After presiding over the deaths of 172 Victorians resulting from their total and corrupt mismanagement of the envirnoment, along with the CFA and other government departments, the DSE has decided to branch into brave new business and management domains, including workplace safety, declaring the devenomized snakes regenerate venom (they don't) (contrary to what worksafe and everyone else seems to think) and worse still DSE are now going into the grog making and selling business.
Yes you heard right, DSE are now into selling grog!
They have just applied for a "Sam the Koala (http://www.smuggled.com/Sam_The_Scam_Sam_The_​Koala_Is_An_Imposter.htm)" trademark (trademark number 1374402) to sell "alcoholic beverages".
Anyway, they must have been drunk when declaring that devenomized snakes regenerate venom (http://www.smuggled.com/VenFAQ1.htm), so they may have something deeper in their new grog venture.
Maybe that's also why they are unable to tell the difference between male and female Koalas!
(see the link above for the details about Sam the drinking Koala (http://www.smuggled.com/koala_Sam_The_Fake_​Koala_Hero_1.htm)).
And based on the records from the Federal Trade Marks office, they are also apparantly venturing into other such diverse enterprises as chocolate manufacture and selling as well!
And I'm sure you probably thought they were a wildlife Department?
All the best
Snake man Raymond Hoser (http://www.raymondhoser.com)

[Frank&Earnest]

Apart from not worrying a lot about who does what.......its like death and taxes....they'll get you in the end, and both sides will become the "shafters" that governments always do.
But I wonder how much we all paid for this???

I see that you agree with the guy who said "if you are being shafted, don't move, you would only make him happier". :D

I do not subscribe to that philosophy, though. I agree that we do not have much to worry either way, but that is a reason for being thankful, not for being complacent. When I came here, in Italy the extreme left was kneecapping people and the extreme right was bombing banks and trains. Sometimes I feel I have been a coward to sell 20 years of education for the right to 1/20,000,000th of the wealth scrounged from the dirt of this country. That's why I want to see it sold at the highest price we can get.

[Big Shed]

The problem with proportional representation, however, is that any crackpot who can muster a sufficient number of protest votes gets a guernsey.


Under the current system of course, a "crackpot" can get in to parliament with a very small percentage of the national vote.

Have you watched the 3 "independents"?

I rest my case (who was it that said something about the size of the brain being inversely proportional to the size of the hat?:rolleyes:)

Edit:

I couldn't find the 2010 figures, but in the 2007 election Bob Katter was elected to parliament with 32500 votes. If you work that out as a percentage of the total number of votes, you will find that is well below 1% (couldn't find the total for 2007, but it would be > 7 million me thinks)

[TheSnakeman]

You wrote:
"I rest my case (who was it that said something about the size of the brain being inversely proportional to the size of the hat?"

I've heard similar sayings to this, but not that one,

like "the probability of a buttered slice of bread falling face up is inversely proportional to the value of the carpet you drop it on".

All the best

Snakeman Raymond Hoser (http://www.snakeman.com.au)

[Frank&Earnest]

Under the current system of course, a "crackpot" can get in to parliament with a very small percentage of the national vote.

Have you watched the 3 "independents"?

I rest my case (who was it that said something about the size of the brain being inversely proportional to the size of the hat?:rolleyes:)

Edit:

I couldn't find the 2010 figures, but in the 2007 election Bob Katter was elected to parliament with 32500 votes. If you work that out as a percentage of the total number of votes, you will find that is well below 1% (couldn't find the total for 2007, but it would be > 7 million me thinks)

Yep. That is what I meant by "The power now enjoyed by the independents is a reflection of the desire by a growing part of the electorate to obtain proportionality notwithstanding the current fetters".

Incidentally, I find BK almost endearing in his singleminded advocacy of cows and, after hearing the other independents speak, I would not have any problems voting for them. We'll see if their actions match their words.

[artme]

I am a proponent of proportional representation and agree that our current system is outdated.

It has been interesting ro note over the peiod of the current election in particular how both major parties want to run with the hares and hunt with the hounds when spruiking the legitamacy of their claim to govern.

One problem with our system is hat it makes the politics predictable and stale. I think both our major parties lack imagination and guts because they are captive to various power groups. This should disappear with a truly representative parliament.

Of course to chang the system would require a referendum and you can just imagine the support that would be forthcoming from the major parties, can't you???:rolleyes:

[tea lady]

:hmm: Start off talking about a woman applying sun screen, and it degenerates into a politics discussion.? Weird. :wacko:

[Frank&Earnest]

:hmm: Start off talking about a woman applying sun screen, and it degenerates into a politics discussion.? Weird. :wacko:

Not at all. Images of a man in speedos must have flashed in everybody's mind. :U

That's a thought. Fred, do you think that was to suggest that the smaller the speedos the bigger .....:U:U

[Big Shed]

That's a thought. Fred, do you think that was to suggest that the smaller the speedos the bigger .....:U:U

You wouldn't wear a hat with speedos, would you????:rolleyes:

[TheSnakeman]

When doing snake shows, we line boxes with newspapers and I recently got a bundle of newspapers all with Julia Gillard on the front cover.
They sit in the boxes and I often make the comment that,
"They are always clean, because the snakes reckon Julia Gillard isn't worth crapping on".
This gets a laugh, as does the reverse comment "Oh it crapped on Gillard and I didn't think she was worth crapping on".
The same would go for Abbott, but at the moment we don't have him lining the boxes.
All the best
The Snake man Raymond Hoser (http://www.raymondhoser.com)

[damian]

People are natually inclined to think everyone shares their views.

Australians want more than anything stability. We are a wealthy comfortable nation and we want it to stay that way.

The federal parliment was set up for balance. The senate offers the proportional representation you mention and also accounts for the state by state disparity in population.

If you really want to undermine the dualopoly you don't need proportional representation. Optional preferential or first past the post systems accomplish this.

Australia is not israel. I glanced at that artical. Rudd and Turnbull's leaderships were utter demonstrable failures. Rudd only won the election because no one knew anything about him.

As it stands our governments are elected by a few hundred thousand swing voters in marginal seats. All other votes, including mine, mean nothing. It is possible mine contributed to the senate slightly.

You need to be realistic. Our democracy is for all the people and while it leaves me unsatisfied, and perhaps you too, it accomplishes an outcome that we all can live with. Unless your alternative accomplishes that it'll never be accepted.

Me, I LOVE a hung parliment. The more time politicians spend fighting amongst themselves the less they have to think up new ways to shaft me. :)

[damian]

:hmm: Start off talking about a woman applying sun screen, and it degenerates into a politics discussion.? Weird. :wacko:

I know it's funny isn't it. Maybe we should see just how big a leap we can take from the subject to politics ? :D

At least these rants are confined to the "nothing to do with woodwork" area :)

"troubled" her sons. Oh gosh, I'm rolling around....:D

[TheSnakeman]

Damian, I hate to say this, but what you wrote above (your first of last two posts) is compellingly correct.
On the opinion stakes, I say some is perspective and you'd have to define me as "more radical" than yourself as in anything that undermines the two party duopoly, I regard as "good", as I regard them as inherantly evil, even if individuals within that system are OK and/or working for good in one area or other.
All the best
Snakeman Raymond Hoser
Snakebusters

(http://www.reptiledisplays.com.au)

[Sebastiaan56]

Me, I LOVE a hung parliment. The more time politicians spend fighting amongst themselves the less they have to think up new ways to shaft me. :)

Damn it Damian, I agree with you! Stop it man!


Start off talking about a woman applying sun screen, and it degenerates into a politics discussion.? Weird

Well it was the title of the thread on purpose TL. I knew I could count on woodies to show their creativity :D

[damian]

Yup, turn a log into a chair and sunscreen into politics.

Ok, now people are agreeing with me I'll have to change my mind...:D